View Full Version : 26 EU States Consider Joining New Euro Zone Treaty
26 EU States Consider Joining New Euro Zone Treaty
Published: Friday, 9 Dec 2011 | 8:56 AM ET
By: Reuters with CNBC.com
All EU countries except one are ready to join the 17 members of the euro zone to draft a new intergovernmental treaty for deeper fiscal union aimed at tackling the sovereign debt crisis, EU Council President Herman Van Rompuy said on Friday.
continued...
http://www.cnbc.com/id/45609759
Is Germany's drive to control the EU purse(s) going to accomplish what they failed to do in two World Wars??
We have read for years that the Europe NEEDS the EU to survive, from Germany and France..
Does it??
If Greece was not in the EU and the World stopped lending them money they have no plan to repay, who cares???
The same can be asked of Spain, Italy, and all the other spoiled little fiefdoms pushing their Robin Hood Socialist agendas...
:munchin
With all due respect, that was a little simplistic.
So was your post. Don't throw random insults, refutes something, or give a counter-opinion.
With all due respect, that was a little simplistic.
My post is am attempt to generate a open discussion based on current events. And you are correct in stating that the post was simplistic. That is exactly what I was aiming for.
The problem(s) are very simple.
The idea that a nation like Germany can browbeat most, if not all of Europe into their vision of a banking system run by their vision of a political system, seems less than optimal, unless they have a vision.
The idea that a small country like Greece can spend wealth that it has no way of generating via it's own economic system is also ludicrous.
Thus, one can argue that the problems of Europe globally fall into the two buckets.
If you want to macro analyze the differences between Spain, Italy, and Greece, so be it. But they are still countries that can not or will not attempt to fix their financial problems.
Instead they have become dependent on the other EU parties to bail them out.
And Germany seems to be very willing to take the lead...
Why?????
:munchin
GratefulCitizen
12-09-2011, 18:41
Most of the economic damage has already been done.
All of the nonsense going on is just a game of musical chairs to see who they can stick with the bill.
So was your post. Don't throw random insults, refutes something, or give a counter-opinion.
No insult meant, nor, honestly, do I see one. Anyhow, for the sake of an open debate I'll articulate my thoughts in a more thorough fashion.
JJ, I think you may be close to the bullseye. The whole idea of the EU has always been a little disconcerting to me. Each country has their own government, yet the EU has a parallel governmental structure which, at times like these, seems to trump the actual elected governments of member nations. Germany appears to be the big sister in this little family, able to lead several of the others down whatever path she chooses.
When put in the perspective that you put forth, it is ironic that GB, once again, appears as the only outsider, while Greece, Italy, Spain and France dance to the tune. Only the future will tell.
My post is am attempt to generate a open discussion based on current events. And you are correct in stating that the post was simplistic. That is exactly what I was aiming for.
The problem(s) are very simple.
The idea that a nation like Germany can browbeat most, if not all of Europe into their vision of a banking system run by their vision of a political system, seems less than optimal, unless they have a vision.
The idea that a small country like Greece can spend wealth that it has no way of generating via it's own economic system is also ludicrous.
Thus, one can argue that the problems of Europe globally fall into the two buckets.
If you want to macro analyze the differences between Spain, Italy, and Greece, so be it. But they are still countries that can not or will not attempt to fix their financial problems.
Instead they have become dependent on the other EU parties to bail them out.
And Germany seems to be very willing to take the lead...
Why?????
:munchin
For starters, please believe me when I say that I meant no insult when I replied to your first post. I mean it.
Switching focus, Germany has proven as one of the lead economies in Europe. characterized by financial and political rigour. Their vision, in my opinion, is to bring the rest of Europe to exercise the same political and financial rigour or to drop the EU, plain and simple.
To be honest with you, a more german approach to politics and finance would be more than welcome, as some of EU's endemic problems are red tape, inefficiency and waste of financial resources. As per Italy, I'd be lying if I said that we're one of the most virtuous european countries. 20 years of berlusconism have left us with devastating effects. He only pursued his courthouse free agenda, leaving the rest behind. But at the same time, Italy's on the giving end of the cash flow as far as EU goes. Yes, we've received money from the EU, but all within the framework or regular european project financing schemes. Our main problems are fundamentally three: corruption, waste of financial resources ( which is directly related to corruption) and tax evasion but especially with the latest budget law we've definitely acknowledged the situation and started dealing with it. But I don't want to focus on Italy alone. We can discuss it further at a later or separate stage.
So, I said that I agree with your vision of Germany's conduct. And I do not see a problem with it as long as we get only the best of their approach.
The main flaw of the EU, as I said in another thread, is its imposition from above. It is basically a political Frankenstein, the result of a partial integration that is only technical. European states decided to relinquish part of their sovereignty in return to pretty much nothing. Because if on one end we have the EU with all of its treaties, politicians and red tape, on the other hand we lack the instruments for a true governance. And the common history and development. Each member has its own agenda and the current structure of european institutions made up of nothing more than consulting bodies with little to no power has done the rest.
I believe you nailed two issues, but I disagree with saying that it all comes down to germany's strive for leading and greece's indolence. There's more to it.
Looking forward to hearing more opinions.
For starters, please believe me when I say that I meant no insult when I replied to your first post. I mean it.
No problem..
The main flaw of the EU, as I said in another thread, is its imposition from above.
It is basically a political Frankenstein, the result of a partial integration that is only technical.
European states decided to relinquish part of their sovereignty in return to pretty much nothing.
Because if on one end we have the EU with all of its treaties, politicians and red tape, on the other hand we lack the instruments for a true governance. And the common history and development.
Each member has its own agenda and the current structure of european institutions made up of nothing more than consulting bodies with little to no power has done the rest.
I believe you nailed two issues, but I disagree with saying that it all comes down to germany's strive for leading and greece's indolence. There's more to it.
Looking forward to hearing more opinions.
Almost sounds like the USA, Federal -vs- States rights??? At least we started with 13 colonies that had a common heritage and language,, and 200 years later...
But we're not talking about the US,,
What does Frau Merkel and the rest of the Europe think they will gain by the EU. They have purposely made it weak in the political arena yet they are trying to UN-weaken it with draconian monetary policy???
My concerns revolve around the current state of my investments. As a retiree, I may or may not have 20 yrs to sort this mess out.. The boat rocking going on only exacerbates my dementia... :eek:
Dozer523
12-10-2011, 06:06
No insult meant, nor, honestly, do I see one. Anyhow, for the sake of an open debate I'll articulate my thoughts in a more thorough fashion.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
Yogi Berra
Roger that Sir, I'll keep it in mind for future interactions on this board. Like I said, I meant no insult, nevertheless it may have still seeped through my reply.
No problem..
I'm glad that we could settle this minor glitch in a gentleman's fashion, Sir. A different sequence of events would have been the most inconvenient as I can't find my cape and challenge glove. :D
Almost sounds like the USA, Federal -vs- States rights??? At least we started with 13 colonies that had a common heritage and language,, and 200 years later...
Exactly, almost like. We lack the historical and developmental groundwork that on the contrary you guys have.
But we're not talking about the US,,
I believe you're right.
What does Frau Merkel and the rest of the Europe think they will gain by the EU. They have purposely made it weak in the political arena yet they are trying to UN-weaken it with draconian monetary policy???
EU's founding fathers were originally just trying to balance the international predominance exercised by the US when the cold war ended. The partial evolution that the EU has undergone and financial speculation have led to the current state of being that Frau merkel und the others are currently dealing with. . Financial measures might seem draconian but situations like Italy's demanded for blunt short term corrective measures in order to buy time to amend the amendable and set a different and sustainable course. One example? 13 cents tax raise in diesel fuel price and 10 in gasoline. I currently pay 1,70 euro for a LITRE of diesel fuel. It makes a little over 5 bucks per gallon. Thus, it makes me wanna kill myself. :mad::mad:
My concerns revolve around the current state of my investments. As a retiree, I may or may not have 20 yrs to sort this mess out.. The boat rocking going on only exacerbates my dementia... :eek:
Well, the fact that European central bank and the IMF have stepped into the financial turmoil makes me see a little glimpse of hope. The rest will have to come out of hard work, reformations and tax payer's/collector's fairness and persistence.
DevilSide
12-14-2011, 15:42
Is Germany's drive to control the EU purse(s) going to accomplish what they failed to do in two World Wars??
We have read for years that the Europe NEEDS the EU to survive, from Germany and France..
Does it??
:munchin
With what little I know about this at the moment, I think Europe does need the EU. EU provides economic stability, or that's the idea anyway. Germany and France being the most powerful in Europe they're a pillar in the region taking a natural leader role. Look at the history, pre-ww1 Germany had a strong economy, highly industrialized, post ww2 it's naturally returned, to what it is today. Some of the other nations in the EU just can't do that for many reasons, but I feel if they follow the lead they might bring something to the table for the EU. At the moment, any benefits that are not there, is because of the extra spending from Greece and Italy. EU or no EU, Europe is still like it's own little global economy, everyone must keep the other on their feet or things go down.
With what little I know about this at the moment, I think Europe does need the EU. EU provides economic stability, or that's the idea anyway. Germany and France being the most powerful in Europe they're a pillar in the region taking a natural leader role(#1). Look at the history, pre-ww1 Germany had a strong economy, highly industrialized, post ww2 it's naturally returned, to what it is today. Some of the other nations in the EU just can't do that for many reasons, but I feel if they follow the lead they might bring something to the table for the EU.(2) At the moment, any benefits that are not there, is because of the extra spending from Greece and Italy. EU or no EU, Europe is still like it's own little global economy, everyone must keep the other on their feet or things go down.
1. Germany does have a strong economy, but there is NO gain from taxing successful German Industry to support someone else.. Germans do not want a tax and spend system,, to support non-Germans
2. Greece has not followed the lead for 2000 years, which is their prerogative.. But they are happy to have someone else contribute to their failure..
I still see no reason for Frau Merkel's quest to spend Germany's wealth on someone else??? Nor do I see her constituent claimering for taxes on their hard earned money..
DevilSide
12-14-2011, 17:15
1. Germany does have a strong economy, but there is NO gain from taxing successful German Industry to support someone else.. Germans do not want a tax and spend system,, to support non-Germans
2. Greece has not followed the lead for 2000 years, which is their prerogative.. But they are happy to have someone else contribute to their failure..
I still see no reason for Frau Merkel's quest to spend Germany's wealth on someone else??? Nor do I see her constituent claimering for taxes on their hard earned money..
I agree Greece isn't following the lead, but if they started to, wouldn't things be balanced out then? And while I agree they shouldn't have to pay for someone else's mistakes, they still need to either get Greece straight or cut the dead weight from the EU. I think Spain and Italy still have a chance, and should accept any help Germany and France offer, and let it not be a waste to them. While Greece isn't a major trade partner, Spain and Italy are. Say those two go further down the hole they're significant enough that its going to have a ripple effect on the Eu as a whole, which will affect the rest of the world, particularly the US and Canada shortly after. If they work out these rough parts the EU might just be the best thing for Europe.
The Reaper
12-14-2011, 18:37
The problem is that the socialist spending policies that got most of the PIIGS in trouble are still demanded by the recipients of the largesse. The "austerity measures" are by no means sufficient to cure the disease.
If we (or the Germans) stepped in today and rescued the Greeks, in very short order, they would be in trouble again because they will continue spending money to buy off the voters. And the voters there have come to expect some pretty cushy benefits. Try to change it, and they hit the streets to riot.
Why should German taxpayers subsidize Greek vacations, shorter work weeks, early retirements, socialized medicine, etc.?
Let the Greeks out of the EU, and they can print money to pay their debts. The inflation that creates may be enough to shock them back into a capitalist state again that pays its bills and does not require financial life support. Come to think of it, a program like that might be just the medicine we need for some of our states to get them back to reality again.
The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money to spend.
TR
The Reaper
12-14-2011, 19:32
The fear with the PIIGs from what I understand is that the European banks of the stronger EU economies are tied to them and if they default, it could cause a chain reaction that hits the financial systems of the strong EU economies, which will then hit our own banks (which are tied into the European banks) as well.
I'd rather take a chance on losing what we have in Euro banks now (after plenty of bailouts already) than to put bad money after good.
Do you really see a positive outcome for this, where we bail out the Greeks, via the EU, and they suddenly see the light and abandon the socialist policies that got them where they are now?
I'd rather lose my ante than to raise a couple of times and then throw the stack into the pot with the cards I am seeing.
Looks like a good buying opportunity right now for precious metals as well. I don't like the way this play is going.
TR
DevilSide
12-15-2011, 04:33
Best they cut the dead weight, let Greece hit rock bottom, all that. I don't think the capitalist-socialist mixed market economy is the problem, it seems to work for them, just the spending is out of control. Sure, they pay alot of taxes there, but they seem to get more bang for their buck.
GratefulCitizen
12-20-2011, 17:59
More dirty tricks.
When a central bank (the Fed or foreign counterparts) buys sovereign debt, it's just printing money and allowing governments to renege on the debt through inflation.
Central banks try to keep interest rates on government debt artificially low through direct purchases when the private sector won't buy it.
But what if the private sector could be forced to buy government debt?
Enter the Basel accords.
This was on today's Drudge Report:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.9d58c31cd5bdcb7896237b12cacad3c 9.871&show_article=1
<snip>
The central bank said it was formally proposing a package of reforms for strengthening regulation and supervision for all of the banks and non-bank financial institutions with assets more than $50 billion, as mandated in the post-crisis reforms of the so-called Dodd-Frank legislation.
The package includes tougher requirements on capital, leveraging and liquidity, and mandatory annual stress tests.
They would also limit a bank's exposure to a single borrower or trading counterparty.
The Fed said it would supplement its own capital and liquidity requirements with the Basel standards for the largest banks.
Those standards require all banks to build a base of Tier 1 or top-quality capital of 7.0 percent of total risk-weighted assets by 2019.
But the largest, systemically important financial institutions, would have to add capital buffers of as much as 2.5 percent -- with the buffer requirement increasing with the size of the institution.
<snip>
There's a neat thing about how assets are "risk weighted" in the Basel Accords..
Sovereign debt for OECD nations with a credit rating of AA- or better have a risk weighting of 0%.
This basically means that banks, in order to meet the standard (backed by implicit or explicit government enforcement), have incentive to buy sovereign debt because it's the least-cost method.
Governments are basically making other investments more expensive by fiat because banks would lose some of their leverage if they chose other options.
This is essentially using the banks to tax everyone -- worldwide.
Socialism has run out of other people's money and is now trying to pick pockets.
Free markets be damned.
Welcome to the New World Order.
Two ways to push this,,
1)Greece quits the EU, with the other debtors to follow
2)Germany owns the EU
:munchin
Germans float direct EU control over Greek budget
By JUERGEN BAETZ
BERLIN (AP) -- Germany is proposing that debt-ridden Greece temporarily cede sovereignty over tax and spending decisions to a powerful eurozone budget commissioner before it can secure further bailouts, an official in Berlin said Saturday.
The idea was quickly rejected by the European Union's executive body and the government in Athens, with the EU Commission in Brussels insisting that "executive tasks must remain the full responsibility of the Greek government, which is accountable before its citizens and its institutions."
But the German official said the initiative is being discussed among the 17-nation currency bloc's finance ministers because Greece has repeatedly failed to fulfill its commitments under its current euro110 billion ($145 billion) lifeline.
The proposal foresees a commissioner holding a veto right against any budgetary measures and having broad surveillance ability to ensure that Greece will take proper steps to repay its debt as scheduled, the official said. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because the talks are confidential.
continued...
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_EUROPE_FINANCIAL_CRISIS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-01-28-11-28-47
Two ways to push this,,
1)Greece quits the EU, with the other debtors to follow
2)Germany owns the EU
:munchin
They will accomplish that which they failed to do with two world wars...
Two ways to push this,,
1)Greece quits the EU, with the other debtors to follow
2)Germany owns the EU
:munchin
Sry to correct you
1) Greece quits the EURO,
2) Germany (that does own the EU - in debt and economic power) and others just decide that Greece has to quit. And trust me... they will - they have to.
What´s going on right now is that Germany and France are trying to prevent a civil war in Greece by pumping money into the system and thus making the cut loss for the debtors of Greece a bit more comfortable (if this is even possible)
Greece will quit the EURO, it can´t quit the EU or it will completely vanish from the map - economically - but this will also lead into a lifestyle of a third world country and this will not be warm welcomed by the greek people.
Greece major problem is - that it has no business plan. WHAT is Greece? WHAT kind of industrial production sector should be established there. WHAT should come out of greece te gain monitary success for the country? Even the greek Parliament isn´t answering that.
Tourism? neat but not enough at all...
Fruits and Vegetables? good climate region but strong competition within the EU
And?...
The only solution is to quit the EURO (they have to do that freely - there is no legal way of forcing them) and get the Drachme back. This will mean that Greece´ exports will be very cheap and therefore attractive for the market. And over time they´ll regain a functional economic system and find "their place" in the EU. And in (to be realistic 50-60 years) if the EURO still exists they might rejoin.
If countries like Greece refuse to quit the EURO and return to their old currencies other stronger countries will be forced to form a new currency without them. This theory (sometimes called the NorthEuro or CoreEuro) would be especially good for the strong countries like France, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands etc...
DevilSide
01-29-2012, 14:44
Sry to correct you
1) Greece quits the EURO,
2) Germany (that does own the EU - in debt and economic power) and others just decide that Greece has to quit. And trust me... they will - they have to.
What´s going on right now is that Germany and France are trying to prevent a civil war in Greece by pumping money into the system and thus making the cut loss for the debtors of Greece a bit more comfortable (if this is even possible)
Greece will quit the EURO, it can´t quit the EU or it will completely vanish from the map - economically - but this will also lead into a lifestyle of a third world country and this will not be warm welcomed by the greek people.
Greece major problem is - that it has no business plan. WHAT is Greece? WHAT kind of industrial production sector should be established there. WHAT should come out of greece te gain monitary success for the country? Even the greek Parliament isn´t answering that.
Tourism? neat but not enough at all...
Fruits and Vegetables? good climate region but strong competition within the EU
And?...
The only solution is to quit the EURO (they have to do that freely - there is no legal way of forcing them) and get the Drachme back. This will mean that Greece´ exports will be very cheap and therefore attractive for the market. And over time they´ll regain a functional economic system and find "their place" in the EU. And in (to be realistic 50-60 years) if the EURO still exists they might rejoin.
If countries like Greece refuse to quit the EURO and return to their old currencies other stronger countries will be forced to form a new currency without them. This theory (sometimes called the NorthEuro or CoreEuro) would be especially good for the strong countries like France, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands etc...
Setting up a good business plan is hard for Greece. Like many countries in the EU there is extra tax on business owners similar to how they tax the upper class, why would people take the risk when the government could just provide? I think there first step is to encourage it by dropping that extra tax, and maybe giving benefits to these people.
The Reaper
01-29-2012, 15:19
I think there first step is to encourage it by dropping that extra tax, and maybe giving benefits to these people.
Not going to happen.
The productive get just one vote each, just like the leeches, and there are a lot more of collecting from the state than paying in.
Sadly, we are on the same path, just a little further behind them.
TR
greenberetTFS
01-29-2012, 15:42
Sadly, we are on the same path, just a little further behind them.
TR
Your absolutely right and it scares the shit out of me!!............:mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
Your absolutely right and it scares the shit out of me!!............:mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
It will interesting to see how the natives react to the loss of national sovereignty.
The Reaper
01-29-2012, 18:21
It will interesting to see how the natives react to the loss of national sovereignty.
I don't think the majority will object, as long as the gravy train keps rolling and the checks keep coming.
TR
Ret10Echo
01-29-2012, 18:27
Not going to happen.
The productive get just one vote each, just like the leeches, and there are a lot more of collecting from the state than paying in.
Sadly, we are on the same path, just a little further behind them.
TR
From one of those chain emails floating around:
The problems we face today are
there because the people who work
for a living are outnumbered by those
Who vote for a living"
I don't think the majority will object, as long as the gravy train keps rolling and the checks keep coming.
TR
I think you are on target. Out of necessity and self preservation the majority will be subservient to whomever the provider is.
But what about the smaller percentage of dissenting natives (which in the US could number in the 10 to 30 million range) that don't swallow the kool aid. We have seen time and time again that occupiers have difficulty quelling dissent in the indigenous populations.
Not going to happen.
The productive get just one vote each, just like the leeches, and there are a lot more of collecting from the state than paying in.
Sadly, we are on the same path, just a little further behind them.
TR
You remind me of something I just read today by Janet Daley, an American-born Brit writing for the UK's Telegraph: [LINK] (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/9045587/Barack-Obama-is-trying-to-make-the-US-a-more-socialist-state.html)
"What was it everybody used to say about the United States? Look at what’s happening over there and you will see our future. Whatever Americans are doing now, we will be catching up with them in another 10 years or so. In popular culture or political rhetoric, America led the fashion and we tagged along behind.
Well, so much for that. Barack Obama is now putting the United States squarely a decade behind Britain. Listening to the President’s State of the Union message last week was like a surreal visit to our own recent past: there were, almost word for word, all those interminable Gordon Brown Budgets that preached “fairness” while listing endless new ways in which central government would intervene in every form of economic activity.
[snip]
Obama is clearly living the Left-liberal dream, which still survives in small pockets of American life. He wants to import the democratic socialism that Europe embraced after the war, which was, for European cultural reasons, imbued with aristocratic paternalism and Marxist notions of bourgeois guilt. But neither of these things are part of the American historical experience. The Left-wing intellectuals, including Obama himself, who adopt this language are talking dangerously uninformed rubbish: if democratic socialism was ever a solution to Europe’s problems (and the present crisis is making that seem less and less likely), it is certainly not an answer to any question that Americans are likely to ask."
DevilSide
01-30-2012, 14:41
I don't think I would have a problem if people who really needed assistance to get a little bit of help, but when half of a nation is just sitting around collecting instead of working that's when I think it's a problem. I'm not one to see anyone starve, but then again, people are taking advantage of kindness. Read an article recently about Denmark, how much of the students just keep going to college to collect benefits until they are hired to a good job, I wouldn't want to live my life just sitting around, not helping anyone else. Used to be, in the 1980's only around 10% were getting these kinds of benefits, how is it we now everyone is poor?
My 23 year old stepson lives in our basement. After "looking" for a job for over a year after he quit long haul trucking, he is now working at Petsmart on average 16 hours per week.
Last week he recieved a letter from corporate headquarters stating he is qualfied to recieve EIC this year when he files his tax return. He was excited to learn he will be getting "free" money. I quickly let him know he will not be filing for EIC this year or any year he.lives under our roof as he does not need it. If the IRS decides to file it for him it will be sent back. He still doesn't get it even after I explained that "free" money he thinks he deserves comes from hard working people like me and his dad. And since we already pay all his bills we have contributed enoug to his care and feeding this year and he is not going to profit any further from our largesse.
tom kelly
01-31-2012, 23:16
My 23 year old stepson lives in our basement. After "looking" for a job for over a year after he quit long haul trucking, he is now working at Petsmart on average 16 hours per week.
Last week he recieved a letter from corporate headquarters stating he is qualfied to recieve EIC this year when he files his tax return. He was excited to learn he will be getting "free" money. I quickly let him know he will not be filing for EIC this year or any year he.lives under our roof as he does not need it. If the IRS decides to file it for him it will be sent back. He still doesn't get it even after I explained that "free" money he thinks he deserves comes from hard working people like me and his dad. And since we already pay all his bills we have contributed enoug to his care and feeding this year and he is not going to profit any further from our largesse.
Let him file his tax return & claim the EIC; Then YOU change the locks on YOUR house and let him make it on his own with the EIC. Regard's, TK
Let him file his tax return & claim the EIC; Then YOU change the locks on YOUR house and let him make it on his own with the EIC. Regard's, TK
OR up his "rent".... :munchin
Let him file his tax return & claim the EIC; Then YOU change the locks on YOUR house and let him make it on his own with the EIC. Regard's, TK
Believe me, if I had my way..... But he does have some special needs and I don't see him moving out anytime in the near future. I don't necessarily want him out of the house, just working more and being more productive.
I don't think the majority will object, as long as the gravy train keps rolling and the checks keep coming.
TR
STRATFOR's take on it:
".....In their long history, the Greeks have lost their sovereignty to invaders such as the Romans, the Ottomans and, most recently, the Nazis. The brutal German occupation still lives in Greek memories. The concept of national self-determination is thus not an abstract concept to the Greeks. Its loss plus austerity imposed by foreign powers would create a domestic crisis in which the Greek state would be seen as an economic and political enemy of Greek national interests along with the commissioner or some other mechanism. The political result could be explosive......"
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/germanys-role-europe-and-european-debt-crisis
GratefulCitizen
02-01-2012, 18:29
My 23 year old stepson lives in our basement. After "looking" for a job for over a year after he quit long haul trucking, he is now working at Petsmart on average 16 hours per week.
Last week he recieved a letter from corporate headquarters stating he is qualfied to recieve EIC this year when he files his tax return. He was excited to learn he will be getting "free" money. I quickly let him know he will not be filing for EIC this year or any year he.lives under our roof as he does not need it. If the IRS decides to file it for him it will be sent back. He still doesn't get it even after I explained that "free" money he thinks he deserves comes from hard working people like me and his dad. And since we already pay all his bills we have contributed enoug to his care and feeding this year and he is not going to profit any further from our largesse.
Natural consequences of influence vectors from a society produced by the public education system.
Development of survival skills and self-reliance is suppressed in the public schools, so they are rarely observed/learned among peers (and kids tend to reject what their parents teach for awhile -- another consequence of the public system).
I failed to pull him from the system soon enough, so my 19 year-old is learning the hard way.
He's been told that I might intervene in order to prevent him from starving or freezing to death; other than that, he's expected to figure it out.
Definitely won't make the same mistakes with my next 4 kids.
Private religious schooling up to age 10-12, then homeschooling.
Some thoughts on the public education system:
http://www.sntp.net/education/school_state_3.htm
http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm
http://www.fff.org/freedom/0795n.asp
Badger52
02-02-2012, 07:19
I don't necessarily want him out of the house, just working more and being more productive.I saw someone's sigline awhile back that said, "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on support from Paul."
I think you're trackin' straight ma'am, kudos.
:)