Remington ACR or DSA SA58?

[Arma Viri]

Gentlemen,

Since I'm new to this website let me introduce myself briefly before I start my first thread.

I am a student located in The Netherlands. I'm working on a bachelors degree in history, which I need in order to do a masters in military science. I did part of my training at the Royal Netherlands Military Academy and will attend the Netherlands Defense University during masters. I have no service experience.

I'd like to hear the opinion of the 'men on the ground' regarding two weapon systems.
Would you either prefer the Remington ACR in 6.8SPC or the DSA SA58 in 7.62? From what I understood, 6.8SPC was developed by SOCOM, with Remington providing the hardware infrastructure. You probably all know of the reports and claims made on the internet about 6.8 being superior to both 5.56 and 7.62 in the carbine/rifle role (flatter trajectory, better terminal ballistics etc). First of all, is this actually true, does any of you have any experience with 6.8? And secondly, would any of you still prefer 7.62 in most situations considering lessons learned in Iraq and A'stan? What is the better weapon system and caliber in your book?


DSA FAL-SA58 links

www.dsarms.com/products.asp?dept=8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmJhFIPKmcc&feature=related

Remington ACR links

www.remingtonmilitary.com/RemingtonMilitary/Firearms/Carbines/ACR.aspx

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoa-rJkHReM

[DevilSide]

You forgot to post an introduction :( Its the first thing you do before you post, go back to your email and re-read.

[Arma Viri]

You forgot to post an introduction :( Its the first thing you do before you post, go back to your email and re-read.

Mea culpa. I read http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11578 but put to much emphasis on the 'Everyone does not need their own personal thread for introductions.' I'll post my introduction in the proper section.

[DbeforeD]

I was under the impression that DSA was an import company for civilian sales in the States, like Century Arms.

As a munitions guy, I don’t see the American Military adopting a different cartridge anytime soon. I could be wrong.

As a recreational shooter, I prefer the ballistics of my 7.62 to my father’s 6.8. But then again, paper doesn’t move or fire back.

[MVP]

LOL :munchin

MVP

[Arma Viri]

I was under the impression that DSA was an import company for civilian sales in the States, like Century Arms.

As a munitions guy, I don’t see the American Military adopting a different cartridge anytime soon. I could be wrong.

As a recreational shooter, I prefer the ballistics of my 7.62 to my father’s 6.8. But then again, paper doesn’t move or fire back.

From what I understand 7.62mmx51 is kind of sacred in the US, ey? Someone on the M4carbine forum claims that 6.8 has 80% of 7.62s' capabilities, but I'm sceptic about what I read on the internet because that is information that has been fed down to 'second hand' if you get my drift. I'd like to see some objective test reports based on an official military trial of 6.8 cartridges form various suppliers (Hornady, Remington etc) and a variety of 7.62 cartridges from Federal, Black Hills etc. Let the professionals from SOCOM conduct the comparison trial and make their findings public. But I'm pretty much sure they love the SPC, for they developed it themselves! It was designed from the bottom up to specifically answer their requirements. 7.62, although a very powerful round, is heavy. What you need is a good balance between mobility and firepower. But then again, that isn't a solid argument when taking the 240 gunners into account. It would make more sense to stick with one single round: 7.62, in order to have a simplified logistics chain all the way up to corps/command level. 7.62 is far from obsolete! It is here and here to stay. But if one took a close look at the SA58 and the ACR, the winner on the ergonmics side is the ACR. I really like that ambidextrous charging handle placed where it should be, as well as the different stocks and modularity Magpul/Bushmaster offer. I somehow have this feeling that the ACR just has and does it all. Remington is currently updating the ACR and has it down to around 6.4 ibs already. (I know that for sure from an inside contact and I can prove it). As far as I'm concerned 5.56 is a no-go in urban and open area like A'stan (lessons learned...) so that makes 6.8 / 7.62 a no-brainer. The only question is: what is the ideal platform?

[Sacamuelas]

Arma Viri.... do a couple of searches on this site for 6.8, etc. Your question has been answered/discussed multiple times in different threads. Read them.

Gentlemen,
I am a student located in The Netherlands. I have no service experience.

yet you then post things like:
As far as I'm concerned 5.56 is a no-go in urban and open area like A'stan (lessons learned...) so that makes 6.8 / 7.62 a no-brainer.

for example: The opinion above this usually brings unwanted attention on this site. You already stated you have no experience, yet you post this statement as if a fact. Just trying to help... Read more/post less.

[Arma Viri]

Arma Viri.... do a couple of searches on this site for 6.8, etc. Your question has been answered/discussed multiple times in different threads. Read them.

I'll do that! Tnx!



yet you then post things like:


for example: The opinion above this usually brings unwanted attention on this site. You already stated you have no experience, yet you post this statement as if a fact. Just trying to help... Read more/post less.

It's okay and I respect your comment. Though I have had no time downrange, I did attend Military Academy, have friends in the military and do know something about weaponry. It's my job to know these things! :D (please feel invited to read my introduction and/or profile) So I don't think I can be concidered a complete outsider that is not aka barely entitled to have an opinion. I don't mean to be cocky -don't get me wrong!- but the scholar can be just as knowledgeable as the man on the ground. So maybe you could in fact give me your 2 cents?...

[BOfH]

but the scholar can be just as knowledgeable as the man on the ground. So maybe you could in fact give me your 2 cents?...

With all do respect, there is a fine line between book-smart and field-smart. What the book says doesn't always work out in the field, and while lessons learned AARs may offer some insight, many on this site, especially those with the 'Quiet Professional' tag, have more years of book and field smarts than you and I have been alive. That said, we are both guests here and in my short time on this forum, statements such as those pointed out by the good doctor, should be backed up by respectable sources, that is if you want to avoid drawing unnecessary fire.

Back to my lane... :munchin

[Arma Viri]

[QUOTE=BOfH;423910]With all do respect, there is a fine line between book-smart and field-smart. What the book says doesn't always work out in the field, and while lessons learned AARs may offer some insight, many on this site, especially those with the 'Quiet Professional' tag, have more years of book and field smarts that you and I have been alive.

I absolutely agree on that! Though I am in very close contact with military folks and do get information and other ins and outs from downrange, so I don't think it's quite fair to underestimate or dissavow that simply because I've never worn a uniform myself (come on...). I'm just asking straight questions in a 'What do you think of X? and what would you suggest on Y?'-context. That's pretty much all. I mean no harm or disrespect. The reason I'd like to get insights/opinions from the Green Berets is because they have WAY more experience, knowhow as well as more training and R&D budget/facilities than the Dutch Army has. I'm perfectly aware of the way military people think and feel. It's a very tight community that wants to keep certain things 'in the family' not for others to be seen or experienced. If you know what I mean....

[Sacamuelas]

OK. I tried to guide you since you are young and a student. This is not school, and most here are not online to answer questions and debate opinions with a new member who has no first hand experiences with the topics being discussed. BELIEVE ME, you are not the first or even in the first 200 guests to have the attitude and background you claim... most that don't stop and get a good grasp of the culture don't last long. I stay in my lane on this site, and I am a moderator. It is expected of everyone.

But then again, you are probably right. What do I know?....

[The Reaper]

AV:

Stop posting. You are attracting unwanted attention to yourself.

Do your homework here. Search and read before starting new threads asking inane questions.

No one should be limited by caliber or weapon, so I think your premise is flawed.

Not too many people here care what they say on other forums or what your friends think. You know how opinions are. Unless they have humped those weapons or shot a lot of people with them. Have they?

Did you just come to PS.com to ask gun questions?

Finally, can you legally own either a ACR or a FAL in the Netherlands?

TR

[Iraqgunz]

Reaper must have been reading my mind. Who gives a shit which is better in some theoretical world if you can't even own the damn things.

Knowing people at some military academy really means dick around here.

[Justinmd]

Don't get too wrapped up in the whole "6.8 was designed by SOCOM for their needs" story. The real story is far less sexy, regardless if you like the round or not.

Next, you are comparing two different classes of rifles, a 7.62 bodied rifle against a 5.56. That in itself is not the best way to look at it.

Finally, the thing about QP's on this site and in general is that it there is a great deal of "inside access" that they have in just about everything it seems, the ACR being just one area.

Justin

[Peregrino]

Don't get too wrapped up in the whole "6.8 was designed by SOCOM for their needs" story. The real story is far less sexy, regardless if you like the round or not.

Next, you are comparing two different classes of rifles, a 7.62 bodied rifle against a 5.56. That in itself is not the best way to look at it.

Finally, the thing about QP's on this site and in general is that it there is a great deal of "inside access" that they have in just about everything it seems, the ACR being just one area.

Justin

MOO - the real story probably should have been recorded in 15-6 proceedings. Though I do have to give kudos to manufacturers willing to take a risk to "give the Soldiers" what they think they want. Interesting times.

[Arma Viri]

@Reaper & Sacamuelas
I did search and read! What's the hostility all about? Why can't I have an open debate with you? You people have tons more experience than the Dutch have, I'm just curious about your findings on topics I like. That's all. I mean no disrespect whatsoever. Why am I being kept out? Because the M1 Carbine happens to be the one and only firearm I ever shot? Because when I applied for a job as an officer in my Army I got rejected simply because the pathetic psychologist who was doing the interview asked me the question on how I would treat my men while in harms way didn't like my answer, stating: 'I'd never order them to do something I wouldn't do myself, and I would turn to God for comfort after the mission got done'? Please, try to see it in retrospective: you can't discuss home improvement with a plumber because you aren't certified for that job?! I won't dicuss military history with my ever-interested nect door neighbour simply because she doesn't have a degree in history? Come on......! Again, I don't mean to troll your website or invade your community or whatever. I'm just interested in your straight forward feedback as a professional. I'm just a student from the Netherlands [a NATO ally!!!!] that happens to have a lot of respect for the experience and knowledge YOU [SOCOM] have. So why close yourself of from society? The military should be standing right in the middle of society.... (By all means, agree to disagree......)
I agree on the narrowing down to one weapon/caliber, but I'm just asking a straight forward question about these two. As general service rifles. Not too many people here care what they say on other forums or what your friends think. You know how opinions are.
Indeed. Neither do I care about other forums, that’s why I came to you guys in the first place. I want to know what the man on the ground with a track record thinks about this and that, not what some gun nut or desktop warrior claims.
I didn’t join PS.com to just ask gun questions. Not only, but in this topic yes I did.
Yes, with the proper paperwork and semi-auto only one can own a military grade rifle. Although gun regulations are very strict overhere and the Peoples Republic of the Netherlands has no such thing as the 2nd Amendement. So please forgive me for my lack of first hand firearms experience.....
And let me make it clear that I’m not some guy that made up an identity for himself. I really am who I am. If anybody around here feels the need to verify me with my professors/references: just PM me and I’ll give you their coordinates.
@Justinmd
That sounds interesting. Could you give me specifics about those ‘insights’ on the ACR [chambered in 6.8, not 5.56] and the 6.8 round?

[Peregrino]

Arma Viri - Your "frustration" is misplaced and attracting unwanted attention. You were told to use the search button. As a self-proclaimed student of military history, and a European to boot, it should be a relatively simple thing for you to research the StG 43 & 44, the 7.92 Kurtz cartridge, and the rationale behind the development of the "assault rifle" concept. The 6.8 falls within the parameters defining the ideal assault rifle cartridge. The US has followed a completely different route in its weapons development programs; i.e., we didn't adopt the "intermediate cartridge" concept for military use. FWIW - We're not going to anytime in the forseeable future. We've discussed this topic in various forms ad nauseum on this forum. 6.8 is not a military cartridge. It will never be a military cartridge (at least not in the US). We are Soldiers. That means that while some of us have an appreciation for the 6.8's specific characteristics, none of us really care to engage in another apples vs. oranges discussion (that dead horse was beaten into rotten hamburger years ago). Please consider the implications carefully before continuing to hammer away at this thread. Peregrino

[The Reaper]

@Reaper & Sacamuelas
I did search and read! What's the hostility all about? Why can't I have an open debate with you? You people have tons more experience than the Dutch have, I'm just curious about your findings on topics I like. That's all. I mean no disrespect whatsoever. Why am I being kept out? Because the M1 Carbine happens to be the one and only firearm I ever shot? Because when I applied for a job as an officer in my Army I got rejected simply because the pathetic psychologist who was doing the interview asked me the question on how I would treat my men while in harms way didn't like my answer, stating: 'I'd never order them to do something I wouldn't do myself, and I would turn to God for comfort after the mission got done'? Please, try to see it in retrospective: you can't discuss home improvement with a plumber because you aren't certified for that job?! I won't dicuss military history with my ever-interested nect door neighbour simply because she doesn't have a degree in history? Come on......! Again, I don't mean to troll your website or invade your community or whatever. I'm just interested in your straight forward feedback as a professional. I'm just a student from the Netherlands [a NATO ally!!!!] that happens to have a lot of respect for the experience and knowledge YOU [SOCOM] have. So why close yourself of from society? The military should be standing right in the middle of society.... (By all means, agree to disagree......)
I agree on the narrowing down to one weapon/caliber, but I'm just asking a straight forward question about these two. As general service rifles. Not too many people here care what they say on other forums or what your friends think. You know how opinions are.
Indeed. Neither do I care about other forums, that’s why I came to you guys in the first place. I want to know what the man on the ground with a track record thinks about this and that, not what some gun nut or desktop warrior claims.
I didn’t join PS.com to just ask gun questions. Not only, but in this topic yes I did.
Yes, with the proper paperwork and semi-auto only one can own a military grade rifle. Although gun regulations are very strict overhere and the Peoples Republic of the Netherlands has no such thing as the 2nd Amendement. So please forgive me for my lack of first hand firearms experience.....
And let me make it clear that I’m not some guy that made up an identity for himself. I really am who I am. If anybody around here feels the need to verify me with my professors/references: just PM me and I’ll give you their coordinates.
@Justinmd
That sounds interesting. Could you give me specifics about those ‘insights’ on the ACR [chambered in 6.8, not 5.56] and the 6.8 round?

AV:

I find 71 threads here that mention the 6.8, 47 that reference the ACR in some manner, and 25 that have DSA mentioned.

Did you read them before starting your new thread?

The comments directed towards you are because you appear to be starting another "which is better?" thread, when there is really no point to it. You will not be owning or shooting either rifle regardless.

Are you not a gun nut or desktop warrior yourself? This is not really a peer to peer exchange is it? Again, what is the point?

If you want to have a debate with other uninformed people, there are hundreds of firearms sites where you can do that. I encourage you to do so.

We use what we are issued. I suspect your Army does the same.

There are a number of non-US members on PS.com who get along just fine. It would seem that the have a good sense of how to conduct themselves here.

I am beginning to see your psychologist's point.

I discuss plumbing with my plumber because I am paying him $75 per hour, and he is satisfied talking about whatever I want to in lieu of working. Note that I don't talk to him much while the meter is running, unless I am preparing to do the job myself next time.

This is our board, as the rules state. We choose what we want to read about or discuss here. You are a guest. Conduct yourself appropriately.

If you continue digging, I am going to assist you in a method that will not be conducive to your further participation.

Best of luck.

TR

[Arma Viri]

I find 71 threads here that mention the 6.8, 47 that reference the ACR in some manner, and 25 that have DSA mentioned.

Thank you! I'll figure the comments out for myself then. I apologise for 'stepping in' too fast as a newbee.

Did you read them before starting your new thread?

Yes, one of them. (when I found PS.com in Google), but it was a very old thread about the ACR.

The comments directed towards you are because you appear to be starting another "which is better?" thread, when there is really no point to it. You will not be owning or shooting either rifle regardless.

Don't worrie. I'm planning on moving stateside permanently in a few years ;)

Are you not a gun nut or desktop warrior yourself? This is not really a peer to peer exchange is it? Again, what is the point?

A gun nut, yeah maybe a little -you caught me off guard!-, desktop warrior? No way.... I'm not an Operator, I just like military hardware.

If you want to have a debate with other uninformed people, there are hundreds of firearms sites where you can do that. I encourage you to do so.

thefirearmblog....

We use what we are issued. I suspect your Army does the same.

The Dutch SF have their own G7 and seperate budget. they can go shopping for any tool they need. Including weapons that would not normally fall within the NATO logistics train.

There are a number of non-US members on PS.com who get along just fine. It would seem that the have a good sense of how to conduct themselves here.

Again, I apologize for that matter.

I am beginning to see your psychologist's point.

She didn't agree with me being a religious man and -hypothetically- always putting my men first. What's not to like?...

I discuss plumbing with my plumber because I am paying him $75 per hour, and he is satisfied talking about whatever I want to in lieu of working. Note that I don't talk to him much while the meter is running, unless I am preparing to do the job myself next time.

This is our board, as the rules state. We choose what we want to read about or discuss here. You are a guest. Conduct yourself appropriately.

If you continue digging, I am going to assist you in a method that will not be conducive to your further participation.

Hooah!

Best of luck.

u2

[DbeforeD]

:(

You know, my mother always used to tell me to "be teachable". She is of Dutch desent, like myself. Why aren't you grasping this concept?