View Full Version : Should SF be a Joint Unit?
USANick7
10-25-2011, 13:26
http://blog.warfarecenter.com/2011/10/25/should-sf-be-a-joint-unit/
I have to say I'm conflicted on this one...I tend to think yes it should, but I there are potential issues...
Team Sergeant
10-25-2011, 13:32
http://blog.warfarecenter.com/2011/10/25/should-sf-be-a-joint-unit/
I have to say I'm conflicted on this one...I tend to think yes it should, but I there are potential issues...
Sure make it a Joint unit, let's repeat Desert One and what happened on Operation Eagle Claw.............:munchin
greenberetTFS
10-25-2011, 13:49
Since I haven't got a clue regarding those two missions I can't really comment on the Joint Unit concept....... :confused: But,I do have a question,is he right by implying that the SFQC Standards are being lowered in order to make the numbers?.......:rolleyes:
Big Teddy :munchin
mark46th
10-25-2011, 13:51
As I have said more than once, keep SF separate. I understand the money part and I want our guys to have the most modern equipment and training available but, when non-SF commanders get involved, gravity takes over and everything goes downhill.
BrokenSwitch
10-25-2011, 14:10
Recruit from all the Services.
As I understand the current situation (in my admittedly narrow, civilian-shaded perspective), there is already a mechanism in place for transferring between branches of the armed services. Rather than make SF "joint," would it be possible to allow personnel from the other armed forces to attend SFAS, and (for the ones who are Selected) subsequently transfer to the Army?
ZonieDiver
10-25-2011, 14:40
As I have said more than once, keep SF separate. I understand the money part and I want our guys to have the most modern equipment and training available but, when non-SF commanders get involved, gravity takes over and everything goes downhill.
I'm with you, Brother! Keep SF separate, and US Army only.
Do all the 18x, Blue to Green, or Chartreuse to Green you want. Going Joint wouldn't be the end of Special Forces, but it would IMHO be the end of 'Special'!
Peregrino
10-25-2011, 16:08
Could easilly be the worst idea anyone has ever broached WRT the future of SF. There are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes where the Joint "powers that be" have acknowleged that they can't do what SF does; why make an active effort for "jointness" other than to ensure that future SF can't do those things either.
Replace SF with SEAL
Now how does the story read?
greenberetTFS
10-25-2011, 16:11
Replace SF with SEAL
Now how does the story read?
:mad::mad::mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
sailors, marines and airmen can already attend the SFQC and then go to an ODA...
...they just have to leave their current service and join the US Army first
A good topic for a blog or a discussion board, but it should certainly be kept far from a uniformed headquarters. We have enough bad ideas to juggle as it is.
...just my two cents.
With next to no exceptions, the only guys that can transfer over to the army and go 18x right now are E-4's and below. I think the SF community is missing out on a lot of quality prior service guys who left their respective branch as E-5 and E-6's.
Selection is open to all male soldiers who are at or above the rank of E-4 and meet other basic requirements. They hand out engineer tape 10-12 times a year........ come on out and "do the best you can"
Surgicalcric
10-25-2011, 18:30
With next to no exceptions, the only guys that can transfer over to the army and go 18x right now are E-4's and below. I think the SF community is missing out on a lot of quality prior service guys who left their respective branch as E-5 and E-6's.
If they want to be SF bad enough they will do what they must to get a shot at SFAS. Guys who cant enlist 18X, but want to be SF, enlist with another contract option all the time and wait for the opportunity to fill out a 4187 for SFAS.
Selection is open to all male soldiers who are at or above the rank of E-4 and meet other basic requirements. They hand out engineer tape 10-12 times a year........ come on out and "do the best you can"
Well said.
Thats the problem, right now the Army (USAAC) is trying to shove all the prior service applicants into the Reserves, so literally the only job for active duty open to the ranks E-1 through E-4 is 18x, and E-5 and above is closed to all jobs. They also will not allow administrative reductions of rank like they did in the past, so even if a guy got out as an E-5, but would rather be SF than keep his rank at enlistment, he can't get the reduction.
As a side note, this is only on the active duty side, I would imagine the NG SF groups would have much more leeway with what they can get in.
Badger52
10-26-2011, 06:43
The respect & place of honor that I have always held for US Army Special Forces, and all the history I've read on same (including accounts of operations/campaigns written from other angles) tells me that Team Sergeant & Mark46th have summed it up. Gravity takes over, with the appropriate Newtonian acceleration and terminal velocity effects that entails.
Everytime I hear that word "jointness" I wanna puke because, within the DoD monolith, it's just code for "we gotta get our guys in the fight whether they contribute or not, else we won't get our ricebowl refilled at the next appropriations hearing."
I hate the cavalier use of that term - it has cost good men their lives.
:mad:
Surgicalcric
10-26-2011, 07:38
Thats the problem, right now the Army (USAAC) is trying to shove all the prior service applicants into the Reserves, so literally the only job for active duty open to the ranks E-1 through E-4 is 18x, and E-5 and above is closed to all jobs. They also will not allow administrative reductions of rank like they did in the past, so even if a guy got out as an E-5, but would rather be SF than keep his rank at enlistment, he can't get the reduction.
As a side note, this is only on the active duty side, I would imagine the NG SF groups would have much more leeway with what they can get in.
This isnt the first time PS guys not being wanted by the Army has been an issue, and there will always be guys the Regiment may be missing out on but the juice isnt worth the squeeze with respect to creating a joint command.
And you are right about NG SF, there are more options there.
Crip
Baht Dog
10-26-2011, 08:21
sailors, marines and airmen can already attend the SFQC and then go to an ODA...
...they just have to leave their current service and join the US Army first
A good topic for a blog or a discussion board, but it should certainly be kept far from a uniformed headquarters. We have enough bad ideas to juggle as it is.
...just my two cents.
No kidding. The structure seems like it's overrun with "good idea fairies" all the time. I have to give credit to glebo for reminding me of that phrase.
Reference above to lowered standards: SFQC Standards are being lowered in order to make the numbers?.......:rolleyes:
Big Teddy :munchin
I dunno, man I hope not. But there have been historic examples of that. An example that stands out in my mind would be the swim test in the late 1990's. Everyone remember that? I distinctly remember when they lowered the standards for the swim test...We all know what the deal was behind all that. No excuses - PERIOD. Another example of the "good idea fairies" many of whom are civilians that that have PHD's that SWC hired to "advise" them.
To me it had the appearance of a "coddle program". Nobody coddled us when I went through. You either did it or you didn't. There were no special "swim classes" or, "we'll train them and work with them until they can pass it". I don't have a problem with providing extra help in academic portions of the training for those who might need it in a particular subject - to a point. But I don't think there should ever be a lowering of physical standards and prowess. Not for the Special Operations field. I, like others, spent my own time rucking, land nav, and doing all the things required to prepare myself for the SFQC and was physically ready to meet all challenges when I got there, as freakin' hard as it was. Damn good thing I spent extra time preparing!
I remember discussions in those days with some trying to convince me that "oh, we need to do this" but I never bought into it. I became jaded, cynical, bitter after that. It wasn't just that though, as we all know it has been a non-stop barrage and assault on many fronts against everything we ever stood for.
But hey, just one man's opinion.
Dozer523
10-26-2011, 08:26
With next to no exceptions, the only guys that can transfer over to the army and go 18x right now are E-4's and below. I think the SF community is missing out on a lot of quality prior service guys who left their respective branch as E-5 and E-6's.Maybe it was becuase I was in the Army, but it seemed to me Marines switch sides to the Army much more then the other direction. Then they (generally) won't let go of it -- keep talking 'bout the Corps; and "back when. . . "
And they generally are pains in the butt. They are the first ones to complain about how they aren't being treated right, with respect, like an adult, everything; anything . . . ad infinitum . . .
If it was so great what are they doing here? Or maybe they thought it would be easier here because they drank the USMC Kool-Aid?
We don't need experience if they are here looking for easy.
If they can't figure out that "this ain't the place for me" before they make some rank and earn some responsibility well, maybe they aren't that bright.
Thats the problem, right now the Army (USAAC) is trying to shove all the prior service applicants into the Reserves, so literally the only job for active duty open to the ranks E-1 through E-4 is 18x, and E-5 and above is closed to all jobs. They also will not allow administrative reductions of rank like they did in the past, so even if a guy got out as an E-5, but would rather be SF than keep his rank at enlistment, he can't get the reduction.
As a side note, this is only on the active duty side, I would imagine the NG SF groups would have much more leeway with what they can get in.
Barring a bad packet you're almost guaranteed an SFAS slot that your CoC can't take away after you switch branches. You don't need to get a reduction. That's a great deal.
but the juice isnt worth the squeeze with respect to creating a joint command.
I agree, I wasn't advocating a Joint approach either. I guess really what I was getting at is the same standards that are for in service applicants should apply to those who are switching branches. It gives SF the best pickins' in my opinion.