View Full Version : Bronze Star awarded for fighting stress
kcphoenix
08-26-2011, 16:57
Do you feel this service is deserving of a Bronze Star? I have heard some say yes and others say it pretty much makes the Bronze Star worthless now. What are your opinions on this?
Psychiatrist wins medal for fighting stress
Army lieutenant colonel earned Bronze Star for work in Iraq
Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/08/24/2539278/psychiatrist-wins-medal-for-fighting.html#ixzz1WB80y8Xw
I saw a female Navy CDR get awarded a BS because she commanded the MARG that off-loaded Marines in Thessaloníki, convoyed through Macedonia, and then into Kosovo.
She never went ashore.
greenberetTFS
08-26-2011, 17:07
It's a medal designed for bravery in combat...........:mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
blue02hd
08-26-2011, 17:09
BSM= Thanks for playing. Majority of them are awarded to those who never leave the FOB's.
Snaquebite
08-26-2011, 17:17
BSM= Thanks for playing. Majority of them are awarded to those who never leave the FOB's.
BSM pretty much an MSM in a combat environment. She was NOT awarded the BSV. (Bronze Star for Valor)
As a medal it's awarded for acts of merit or meritorious service.
The Reaper
08-26-2011, 18:56
BSM pretty much an MSM in a combat environment. She was NOT awarded the BSV. (Bronze Star for Valor)
As a medal it's awarded for acts of merit or meritorious service.
Exactly.
TR
BSM= Thanks for playing. Majority of them are awarded to those who never leave the FOB's.
We call them "Fobbits", (sounds like hobbits), but smaller and less brave.
blue02hd
08-26-2011, 21:49
BSM pretty much an MSM in a combat environment. She was NOT awarded the BSV. (Bronze Star for Valor)
As a medal it's awarded for acts of merit or meritorious service.
I agree brother, but pound fer pound, I can count on my hands how many MSM recipients I know versus the MULTITUDE of BSM's I have seen awarded.
TBH though, this is an issue I cannot pretend to have an answer to fix, as I do not truly feel I can understand how broken the award system has become.
Case in point: I am noticing that the MOH is rotating through service branches lately. My shiny quarter hiding in my pocket says the next MOH will go to the Zoomies, possibly a CTT or JTAC.
Just me rambling on as I await this bitch named Irene,,,,, Stay safe all.
Snaquebite
08-26-2011, 22:05
Just me rambling on as I await this bitch named Irene,,,,, Stay safe all.
Well at least you're here...glad to hear that. How ya been doin?
blue02hd
08-26-2011, 22:09
Well at least you're here...glad to hear that. How ya been doin?
Better than I deserve!!! Hope to see you soon again,,,, :lifter
BSM pretty much an MSM in a combat environment. She was NOT awarded the BSV. (Bronze Star for Valor)
As a medal it's awarded for acts of merit or meritorious service.
Agreed,
I have no problem with this at all. It's not the same for instance as some of the blanket CIBs I remember from Desert Storm, which I for one also recieved for "being there". Many of us considered it a slap in the face to those from Vietnam and earlie, for us to have recieved one, when having not really earned it in comparison to those who had.
The awarding of a bronze star has been problematic since WW II. My dad was a platoon medic and got his first one for still being there after 3 months. He got his second one after the fact, in 1947, when there was a blanket award to all holders of the combat medics badge. He had only one purple heart award despite multiple woundings because "Why would you want more than one? It just shows you can't keep your ass down"
We used to joke about officers in the Vietnam era that you could tell how long they lasted in the 101st. It seemed that you got an ARCOM at 90 days, a bronze star at 6 months, and a silver star if you completed your tour. Not so for enlisted.
As an EOD specialist I always had my awards recommendations turned down because "risking your life is just part of the job". It was a little hard to swallow when the officer refusing your awards accepts an ARCOM for doing such a great job shuffling papers at FORCECOM when he rotates! However, I had my EOD badge - which was all I cared for - even if I did get berated in the PX by "STRAC" officers for having "those foreign jumps on the wrong side of my uniform"
In 1967, I saw cooks awarded BSMs (Merit) when they rotated to CONUS because they served in an infantry unit.
SF Mike
greenberetTFS
08-27-2011, 16:07
BSM pretty much an MSM in a combat environment. She was NOT awarded the BSV. (Bronze Star for Valor)
As a medal it's awarded for acts of merit or meritorious service.
That's true,but how many people know that?........ All they hear is he/she was awarded the Bronze Star,and many think because of its name it was awarded for combat bravery ...........:rolleyes:
Big Teddy :munchin
The sad thing is that in SF they are INCREDIBLY stingy with medals and we won't have all of the "storied" people to parade around in 20 years. No MOH's, few (if any) DSC's, VERY few Silver Stars.
The SS has become the new SF MOH, IMHO. I've read a BSM-V citation for a guy that did exactly, to the letter, what Audie Murphy did to win his MOH.
While the rest of the military hands out awards like candy, we try to over-preserve the integrity of ours.
The sad thing is that in SF they are INCREDIBLY stingy with medals and we won't have all of the "storied" people to parade around in 20 years. No MOH's, few (if any) DSC's, VERY few Silver Stars.
The SS has become the new SF MOH, IMHO. I've read a BSM-V citation for a guy that did exactly, to the letter, what Audie Murphy did to win his MOH.
While the rest of the military hands out awards like candy, we try to over-preserve the integrity of ours.
Citations go way up the chain of command nowadays...in RVN local commanders could approve up to the SS and that was appropriate because they were very aware of the circumstances. I think today you have guys/gals reviewing awards that 'don't have any' syndrome that impacts their decisions....
The awarding of A&Ds has always been an issue - even with the MOH.
http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/corrections/purge_army.html
And don't forget LBJs Silver Star and the pin he displayed proudly on the lapel of his suits. :mad:
I recall USAF staff officers at Whiteman AFB, MO, getting BSMs for meritorious service (achievement) for steadfastly manning their desks when their squadron's B2s were deployed in support of ops in SWA.
And CIBs - after Grenada, Panama, GW1 and the like - :rolleyes:
But it is what it is.
And so it goes...still...
Richard :munchin
Horned Frog
08-27-2011, 16:51
I'm not really in a position to judge one way or another, but my dad had a few BSM and one with V. My friend SSG J. V. was awarded a Silver Star around the same time. Men deserving of the awards recieve them as well, and I can't say that I feel that their accomplishments are made less valuable by others being awarded the same medals. IMHO, the actions speak louder than medals to the people who matter.
Eagle5US
08-27-2011, 19:19
This has always been, and will continue to always be, an issue. The "standard" differs too greatly between Commands let alone individual units. In my last hospital unit, there was an E-4 with (no lie) 23 AAM's. TWENTY THREE:eek:
WRT the BSM vs MSM argument...I try and guide my "in Theater" leaders as such:
If you want to write a guy up for a BSM, show a LEVEL OF RISK that is involved in his service. He doesn't have to get blown up, get in a bunch of firefights, or take down AQ #'s 5-13...but show a level of risk....
BSM
"Volunteered to TC 79 convoys"..."Conducted 23 Combat Patrols"..."Participated in 11 remote KLEs"...
vs
MSM
guy on the FOB who
"Coordinated 983 hours of air assets support in the Combined SO Task Force with zero mission hours lost secondary to flight delay"..."Acted as FOB Mayor for more than 800 permanent US Personnel and cyclic transient personnel for a sustained population of over 1050 people with zero SIR's generated"...
Both sets in the combat environment....one set shows risk but no "combat"...the other shows "business" in a Combat zone....
And yes, SF holds awards VERY NEAR AND DEAR - them puppies are EARNED in this Community - moreso than in any other community I have ever been associated with. But then - when you get one...you know it means something.:lifter
In my last hospital unit, there was an E-4 with (no lie) 23 AAM's. TWENTY THREE:eek:With that many AAMs, you'd think they'd put him in for an ARCOM.:eek:
Stay safe.
Old Dog New Trick
08-28-2011, 05:40
I wouldn't get your panties in a bunch over this. Awards and metals are rarely given to the appropriate people for the correct reasons. Often, it's the hard work of others that create the atmosphere where someone is recognized for exceptional achievement while others are not. It also takes a leader to witness and recognize the value of that achievement and put it in writing.
When I look back at many of the awards I received; some were for just being there. When I look back on all the ones that were downgraded I felt cheated out of the true and proper recognition of the moment. That is to say - they were grade based and not a true representation of the merit, achievement, or sacrifice given.
The military history of awarding metals was not only to recognize the individual but to inspire others to seek a higher calling or to become braver in the face of danger. (It's really, really difficult, maybe impossible, to ask a Green Beret to rise to a higher calling or become braver than he already is through the use of metals and awards. At least that would be my recollection :p )
Somewhere along the way though, the purpose has been distorted and degraded to the point where the same heroic act or exceptional achievement merits different levels of recognition based on a multitude of factors. None of which should bear on the weight of the act alone, but often is the only reason that some are given a particular metal while others receive a lesser one or nothing at all. Within various units (specialties) what might earn someone the MOH, DSC, or SS in combat (LOM or MSM in non-combat) is simply considered part of the job regardless of other factors. The higher the expectation for excellence, the lower the perception of reality. As Eagle5US pointed out; earning an award like a Silver Star in SF really means something and probably took considerable risk of imminent death, but that should not takeaway from the truck driver (support unit) who pulls his mates to safety under sporadic gunfire after a roadside IED where the risk may have been substantially less demanding. He too risked all even though the circumstances are vastly different. One you would expect to meet the challenge and the other was true heroism above and beyond.
No one said life was fair...some just have to do more than others for the same reward (recognition). :p
Airbornelawyer
08-28-2011, 11:19
BSM pretty much an MSM in a combat environment. She was NOT awarded the BSV. (Bronze Star for Valor)
As a medal it's awarded for acts of merit or meritorious service.
Not just pretty much. The MSM was specifically created to stop the awarding of Bronze Stars in non-combat situations.
As we can see by this thread, though, that hasn't happened. In my opinion, the basic problem is that the Bronze Star is the lowest "combat-only" award in the armed forces' award hierarchy. The problem starts with the peacetime proliferation of MSMs and ARCOMs as merit and PCS awards. So when war comes, you have all these guys who already have a bunch of MSMs and ARCOMs (and AAMs for that matter), especially in administrative commands where being closer to the brass often expedites the awards process.
So a commander have a soldier whose performance in a wartime situation probably merits an MSM or an ARCOM. But the soldier already has one or more. And even if the soldier doesn't, the issue remains that there is no way to distinguish his ARCOM for successfully leading his platoon in combat or her MSM for running a resupply operation down IED-infested highways from some other guy's ARCOM for keeping the toilet paper stocked at the officer's club during a tour at Fort Lost-in-the-Woods or MSM for making sure the PowerPoint presentation always looked nice at his general's Pentagon briefings. So the award gets pushed up to a Bronze Star for achievement, since that's the only way to distinguish the wartime from the peacetime.
My personal opinion is that there needs to be a way to distinguish the wartime awards from the peacetime ones. Take the World War I Central Powers as an example. Among many of the states that made up the German Empire, as well as in Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria, there were two ways this was done. Typically, wartime awards were "on the war ribbon", a special ribbon solely for wartime awards (and sometimes even different ribbons for combatants and non-combatants). Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria also used a wreath of laurels or oakleaves as a war decoration on several of their decorations. Crossed swords also typically indicated a combat award. They still had their problems. The "war ribbon" was typically the same ribbon for different awards. Thus, the Prussians used the Iron Cross ribbon for war awards of at least six other decorations and the Austrians the ribbon of their Bravery Medal for at least four other decorations.
I think the "V" device to some extent performs thsi role in the Navy and Marine Corps. While the Army treats the "V" as distinguishing valor awards from those for combat achievement, the Navy treats the "V" as a "Combat Distinguishing Device", and authorizes it for the Legion of Merit and for commendation and achievement medals even for achievement if the achievement is in a combat situation. If you limited the "V" to valor awards and had another device for combat merit awards, you might have a way of addressing the issue.
Of course, the simpler course would be to stop diminishing the medals for achievement with so many peacetime awards, but the genie's already out of that bottle.
...because people always have something to say about them, and rarely is it for the good of the soldier.
As the current BN S1 (FML), I hear "Well, I'm a CSM and have never received an MSM"... My response "So, how does your ERB affect the service performed by this 1SG, CSM?" Answer: It doesn't.
Or there's the "But was he REALLY in danger?" Spoken by a staff officer on an awards board for a BSM w/ V that we submitted in Afghanistan. My internal monologue (which ended up coming out of my lips): "No, dick. He only lives at a patrol base, devoid of power, water, and electricty, surrounded by Taliban infested mountains, and his unit has been in more TICs than the rest of the BN and dropped more JDAMs than the rest of the BDE. Maybe he wasn't in danger during this particular incident... How the office, BTW?" (we were both CPTs)
And then there's "awards boards". What a crock of sh*t that is. IMHO, awards boards were created because commanders are either a) "too busy" to deal with the pile of awards that come across their desk to accomplish one of the FEW THINGS reserved only for commanders (approve/deny) awards or b) they're too lazy.
Command is the only time you can promote soldiers by a swipe of the pen, meter out UCMJ, and approve awards. I have seen, and sat on, far too many awards boards to think that they have a legitimate place in our Army. Many, if not most, are staffed by officers and NCOs who are either so far removed from what's occurring on the ground and therefore cannot accurately judge awards, or they have just finished drinking a tall glass of hater-ade and get the "I'm a CPT, why would an E4 get the same service award as me?"
But the BSM mentioned in the OP seems legit, based on what is in AR 600-8-22:
"The Bronze Star Medal may be awarded for meritorious achievement or meritorious service"
"Title 10, United States Code, section 1133, (10 USC 1133) limits award of the Bronze Star Medal to service members receiving imminent danger pay."
More often than not, rank plays a role in the service award given. Don't get me started on that.
Last year in AFG, the 101st DIV CDR completely stopped the award of MSMs in theatre, which was nice to see.
I could rant about awards for days... But I'll spare you... :D
The awarding of A&Ds has always been an issue - even with the MOH.
http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/corrections/purge_army.html
And CIBs - after Grenada, Panama, GW1 and the like - :rolleyes:
But it is what it is.
And so it goes...still...
Richard :munchin
Oh, I got in a heap o' trouble when I erased my Just Cause CIB out of my personnel file.
In Colorado, there is a metric assload of vanity plates available. Included in this mix are both a Bronze Star plate, and a Bronze Star with V plate. Both cost $50. I'm continuously amazed at how many people pay $50 to show they earned a combat zone MSM, and how few BS w/V plates I see (especially with 10SFG just down the road).
Sacamuelas
08-29-2011, 10:59
I'm continuously amazed at how many people pay $50 to show they earned a combat zone MSM, and how few BS w/V plates I see (especially with 10SFG just down the road).
I'm a little off topic here with a BS with V vs a PH award, but here in state #50 for most things except obesity and teen pregnancy...:D... our vehicle tags can run as high as $1000/yr. The purple heart tag doesn't require a paid renewal and is free.
mark46th
08-29-2011, 12:06
23 AAM's? I wish they had given awards for snakes killed. I'd had a shxtload over in Thailand....
1stindoor
08-29-2011, 14:17
...And then there's "awards boards". What a crock of sh*t that is. IMHO, awards boards were created because commanders are either a) "too busy" to deal with the pile of awards that come across their desk to accomplish one of the FEW THINGS reserved only for commanders (approve/deny) awards or b) they're too lazy.
As a former 1SG that sat on too many of those same boards I can tell you that for the most part they served their purpose. That is, ensuring that the award the SM is being recommended for...has the best possible write up to ensure it's awarded. They will also ensure that all the supporting documentation is included, such as photos, narratives, eye witness reports etc. A commander that fills his board with people that do not understand the process and have never served in a similar situation...does his troops a grave disservice.
The "Commander" can either spend his whole time reading and reviewing paperwork coming in from all angles of his command...or he can use his staff to take care of some of it so he can focus on being a commander. When the board hands over the 638...the commander should have no doubt in his mind that the award being recommended...is the award that is deserved.
FWIW...I have two BS (both for for service) and two ARCOMs w/V (one was a downgraded BSV). One of those ARCOMs was "just doing my job," the other...not so much.
greenberetTFS
08-29-2011, 14:29
I'm a little off topic here with a BS with V vs a PH award, but here in state #50 for most things except obesity and teen pregnancy...:D... our vehicle tags can run as high as $1000/yr. The purple heart tag doesn't require a paid renewal and is free.
Absolutely true,in Mississippi the Purple Heart vehicle plate is free,I'm not sure any other state does the same........;)
Big Teddy :munchin
It came down the line last trip that no one was to get a MSM for an OEF tour. That pretty much leaves BSM, ARCOM, AAM or a slap on the back as the only authorized tour awards (maybe JCOM if in the right billet) not counting valor awards. You can say what you want about guys riding a desk for a rotation, but those deskriders can really make a difference and I have no problem hearing about a guy receiving a BSM for working his ass off beyond what should be expected.
When the time comes for tour awards, I tell my boss just to put me in for an AAM. I don't have one... and still don't.
alright4u
08-29-2011, 22:09
BSM pretty much an MSM in a combat environment. She was NOT awarded the BSV. (Bronze Star for Valor)
As a medal it's awarded for acts of merit or meritorious service.
The BSM for Achievement is an officer's good conduct medal in wartime these days. Even in RVN, MD's received them as did nurses.
23 AAM's? I wish they had given awards for snakes killed. I'd had a shxtload over in Thailand....
Thailand has 30 indig snake species, 28 are posionous, and the other two can swallow you.:D
As a former 1SG that sat on too many of those same boards I can tell you that for the most part they served their purpose. That is, ensuring that the award the SM is being recommended for...has the best possible write up to ensure it's awarded. They will also ensure that all the supporting documentation is included, such as photos, narratives, eye witness reports etc. A commander that fills his board with people that do not understand the process and have never served in a similar situation...does his troops a grave disservice.
The "Commander" can either spend his whole time reading and reviewing paperwork coming in from all angles of his command...or he can use his staff to take care of some of it so he can focus on being a commander. When the board hands over the 638...the commander should have no doubt in his mind that the award being recommended...is the award that is deserved.
FWIW...I have two BS (both for for service) and two ARCOMs w/V (one was a downgraded BSV). One of those ARCOMs was "just doing my job," the other...not so much.
I see what you're saying 1st, and I can appreciate it. In my situation, however, we are plagued by staffs full of officers/NCOs that have never been on the line, or the last time they were there was the 90s... Unlike an active duty unit, with 28 year old E7s and S1s that were just XOs or CDRs, we have the warfighters and the staffs. Only the S4 had been deployed in a line unit and he was the only one fighting for awards for the guys.
My comments about commanders being lazy really boils down to commanders taking an active role in awarding their soldiers. If that active role is CAREFULLY creating a board and giving them [gasp] commander's guidance, then spot checking some results, I'm cool with that. What I've seen through several deployments, however, is a board made up of the CSM (we were visited by the FSO and the Chaplain at our patrol base more than the BN CDR, XO, S3, and CSM combined), S1, S1 NCO, S4, S4 NCO... The S4 was the "voice of reason" and it infuriated me when those individuals had the power to judge our soldiers valor awards.
Sorry for the rant. I think we agree that, if done well, boards are a service. If not... ugh
Eagle5US
08-30-2011, 07:21
The BSM for Achievement is an officer's good conduct medal in wartime these days. Even in RVN, MD's received them as did nurses.
Can I quote you on that and send it to my Command here in Theater? I just wrote my "No Award" memo for this deployment. And hey, I was a good boy! Even outside the wire!:D
The sad thing is that in SF they are INCREDIBLY stingy with medals and we won't have all of the "storied" people to parade around in 20 years. No MOH's, few (if any) DSC's, VERY few Silver Stars.
While the rest of the military hands out awards like candy, we try to over-preserve the integrity of ours.
Peeking in here really slowly...to add...ALL SF MEN are heroes, pure and simple, IMVHO.
Without You, there would be no stages set for others to earn medals, again, IMVHO.
Backing away very quietly now.....
Holly;)
alright4u
08-30-2011, 20:55
Can I quote you on that and send it to my Command here in Theater? I just wrote my "No Award" memo for this deployment. And hey, I was a good boy! Even outside the wire!:D
Do quote me. Most officers below the rank of O-6 received BSM's achievement in RVN. O-6 and up LOM in war. A Legion of Merit for an O-5 in SF was rare in RVN. I know of one. I would want every NCO to get one,too. Hell, we had the a 5th Group mail clerk get one in RVN while many of our recon 10's and 11's got zip at Omega and CCS. I had three top notch NCO's when I had the HF company. All could lead a platoon as well as any officer, and; none got a BSM achievement with us.