View Full Version : Botched Gun Trafficking Investigation
Team Sergeant
03-28-2011, 15:50
LOLOLOL talk about stupid..... ATF even more stupid. If I was a lawyer I'd be suing the hell out of the US Government if my family member was shot and killed as a result of Operation "Fast and Furious".
What sort of morons do we have in charge of the ATF? I know let's give the cartels nukes and see where that leads?
Want to takes bets on when the first Border Patrol Agent is killed with one of the .50 rifles the ATF "GAVE" to the cartels?
Sometimes the news does actually amaze me.
Obama Administration Under Mounting Pressure for Botched Gun Trafficking Investigation
By William La Jeunesse
Published March 28, 2011
| FoxNews.co
Congress and the Department of Justice appear to be headed for a showdown this week over documents detailing Operation Fast and Furious, the botched gunrunning sting set up by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that funneled more than 1,700 smuggled weapons from Arizona to Mexico.
The Justice Department has until Wednesday to deliver to congressional investigators a stack of records and emails naming the individuals responsible for the gun trafficking operation that may have killed dozens, if not hundreds of Mexicans, and is becoming a growing embarrassment for the Obama administration.
Under Project Gunrunner and the Phoenix off-shoot, dubbed Fast and Furious, the ATF encouraged gun store owners to sell to straw buyers -- consumers who they suspected of working on behalf of Mexican drug cartels. Project Gunrunner purposely allowed the straw buyers to illegally buy and export guns only to see where they surfaced in Mexico. Using this investigative technique, the ATF hoped to take down the entire gun trafficking organization. Instead, records show it allowed more than 1,700 guns, including hundreds of AK-47s and high-powered, armor-piercing .50-caliber rifles to be trafficked to Mexico
Buying guns for non-personal use is illegal. Yet gun store owners were assured by ATF agents the buyers were under investigation and the guns were being intercepted before crossing into Mexico.
Instead, whistleblowers say the guns were allowed "to walk."
President Obama, speaking for the first time about the growing scandal, conceded last week Fast and Furious may have been "a serious mistake," but he claimed, "I did not authorize it; Eric Holder, the attorney general, did not authorize it. He's been very clear that our policy is to catch gunrunners and put them into jail."
But an investigation by Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, could show otherwise.
The ATF operates under Justice Department, and two assistant U.S. attorneys in Phoenix authorized virtually every wiretap, affidavit and investigation conducted in Operation Fast and Furious.
Some, like Issa, wonder how Holder could not have known about an investigation that size.
"One of the questions we always ask is who is lying," Issa told Fox News. "We lose our credibility if we don't come clean and make the changes necessary to save lives on both sides of the border."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/28/obama-administration-mounting-pressure-botched-gun-trafficking-investigation/?test=latestnews
Go Devil
03-28-2011, 16:15
Below is a link to a blog that is authored by the individual that broke this story months ago. He is fully responsible for elevating the story to where it is now.
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/
Having worked with many Federal LE Agencies. I am not surprised at all. There are some good people there. But protecting and advancing your career. Is usually the topic of daily conversation. Not catching bad guys. AG Holder said he didn't authorize it either. What a bunch of cowards.
And mind you that all the while 'Fast and Furious' was going on, Obama, Holder, Clinton and Napolitano were casting the blame on US Gun Laws, the Firearms Industry, US Citizens and waging war on the 2nd Amendment.
Just a few memorable quotes...
“More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that lay in our shared border”
“Our inability to prevent weapons from being illegally smuggled across the border to arm these criminals causes the death of police officers, soldiers and civilians.
“I feel very strongly we have a co-responsibility”
greenberetTFS
03-28-2011, 16:42
ATF.........."Stupid is as stupid does"..........:rolleyes::eek::mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
Go Devil
03-28-2011, 16:49
And mind you that all the while 'Fast and Furious' was going on, Obama, Holder, Clinton and Napolitano were casting the blame on US Gun Laws, the Firearms Industry, US Citizens and waging war on the 2nd Amendment.
Just a few memorable quotes...
Part of that "Never let a crisis go to waste.." ideaology at work.
Damn all of this social engineering! All of this hope an change needs smoked in a "great vengeance and furious anger" sort of way!
Part of that "Never let a crisis go to waste.." ideaology at work.
Up until the past few years I generally thought there was some good coming out of Washington, but anymore there seems to be something nefarious hidden behind everything they do.
So... In order to catch "gunrunners" the ATF, in their infinite wisdom, decides to become the LARGEST gunrunner?
Wow...
Perhaps they can catch dope runners the same way. They can ship tons of coke to the US, and see where it "turns up"...
Jeebus.
dr. mabuse
03-28-2011, 21:47
*
Texas_Shooter
03-28-2011, 22:05
http://www.globalissues.org/article/74/the-arms-trade-is-big-business
The US is the world's largest arms exporters, nothing new here.
incarcerated
03-28-2011, 22:51
Huh?
You mean, American gun stores are supplying the world’s militaries?
Texas_Shooter
03-28-2011, 22:54
Monkey see, monkey do.
incarcerated
03-28-2011, 23:04
Monkey see, monkey do.
Oh.
Well, that certainly clears things up.
:rolleyes:
Texas_Shooter
03-28-2011, 23:13
Oh.
Well, that certainly clears things up.
Who says the world's militaries that the US supply are any better the the Mexican drug cartels that American Citizens supply guns to.
http://www.globalissues.org/article/74/the-arms-trade-is-big-business
The US is the world's largest arms exporters, nothing new here.
So what does this have to do with a Botched ATF attempt to cut the weapons flow south? This is about small arms not tanks, planes, etc......:munchin
I really have never thought too much about the BATFE. I love my NFA stuff, but I hate that I have to live in absolute paranoia about where I take it because I know the NFA registry is trashed. There are so many crazy court cases about the conspiracies and strange things these guys have done to convict people. It really does not surprise me, for them to come up with yet, one more, brilliant idea in the name of the laws they are suppose to be enforcing. Government oversight sucks…:mad:
Goggles Pizano
03-29-2011, 06:44
So... In order to catch "gunrunners" the ATF, in their infinite wisdom, decides to become the LARGEST gunrunner?
Wow...
Perhaps they can catch dope runners the same way. They can ship tons of coke to the US, and see where it "turns up"...
Jeebus.
They already do this. DEA investigators regularly allow large quantities of dope to "walk" in an effort to get to the source. This manner of investigating (follow the trail to the next higher level) has it's merits however too often investigators fall into the trap of "we are so close...wait until the next load comes in/we stumble upon/we steal from a smaller agency investigation" thought process. Meanwhile the country is inundated with drugs, guns, and the animals that murder each other (and civillians) in an orgy of violence and money in an effort to build that "no lose" case for Fed prosecutors (the only cases they prosecute).
The Reaper
03-29-2011, 06:49
Who says the world's militaries that the US supply are any better the the Mexican drug cartels that American Citizens supply guns to.
I really doubt that the American citizens are supplying as many weapons to the cartels as you and the MSM seem to think they do. I do not think the full auto weapons, rocket launchers, and frag grenades that are being employed came from the local gun store.
Much of the U.S. arms exports are aircraft, missiles, and ships. If you count arms exports in dollars, clearly, the U.S. is probably going to be number one. Small arms might be another matter, especially if NK and China reported all of their sales.
If you are questioning our military assistance and arms sales, which have to be approved by the U.S. Government for export, or the quality of the recipients, you should take that up with our elected civilian leadership.
The question here is whether a U.S. paramilitary Federal LE organization should knowingly encourage and abet illegal civilian weapons sales to narco-terrorist organizations in Mexico.
Either you are missing your mark with your tone here, or are trolling and will soon be done.
TR
Who says the world's militaries that the US supply are any better the the Mexican drug cartels that American Citizens supply guns to.
Scooterdude, do you have ANY idea what goes into a FMS (foreign military sale) case? It is a years long process that has to be approved by DOD, DOS, and Congress just to name a couple of the agencies involved.
This is what I do for a living. Before you suggest what I think you are suggesting, maybe you should do a little bit of research.
You aren't even comparing apples and oranges, you are comparing apples and giraffes.
...you are comparing apples and giraffes.
Oooh...oooh...I love apples and giraffes. This is one of my favorites.
Spinach, Giraffe, and Apple Salad
10 oz. giraffe tenderloin, sliced into thin strips, seasoned with fajita seasoning and grilled
1/4 c. coarsely chopped walnuts
4 bunches fresh baby spinach, rinsed, stemmed and torn into pieces
1 Granny Smith apple, cored and sliced into small bits
1/4 c. Craisins
1/4 c. Feta cheese (traditional, crumbled)
6 green onions, sliced
Dressing
1/2 c. extra virgin olive oil
3 tsbp. lemon juice
2 tbsp. sugar
1 sm clove garlic, crushed
1 tsp. salt
Prep time: 30-45 mins
Mix ingredients, add dressing, toss, and enjoy with a nice Balletto Russian River Valley Pinot Noir. ;)
Richard :munchin
LongWire
03-29-2011, 08:15
MMMMM....Sweet and Salty!!!!!
They already do this. DEA investigators regularly allow large quantities of dope to "walk" in an effort to get to the source. This manner of investigating (follow the trail to the next higher level) has it's merits however too often investigators fall into the trap of "we are so close...wait until the next load comes in/we stumble upon/we steal from a smaller agency investigation" thought process. Meanwhile the country is inundated with drugs, guns, and the animals that murder each other (and civillians) in an orgy of violence and money in an effort to build that "no lose" case for Fed prosecutors (the only cases they prosecute).
You are painting with a pretty broad brush. In reality you have no idea how few times even a small quantity is allowed to walk. If DEA has control of the substance and loses it your career/job is in danger.
Please qualify your statement!
Goggles Pizano
03-29-2011, 13:49
You are painting with a pretty broad brush. In reality you have no idea how few times even a small quantity is allowed to walk. If DEA has control of the substance and loses it your career/job is in danger.
Please qualify your statement!
Not a problem BHT.
While working in the drug/vice/organized crime division of my Department my partner and I were attatched to the DEA satellite. Cases are generally made by municipalites and state departments then passed up to the DEA when it was impossible for smaller agencies to continue the investigation of a case with a limitied amount of buy money. It is par for the course to have a dealer order up from the "bigger fish" if you will, and the reality is DEA has access to larger sums of cash. I have seen money walk all time; Lots of it. I will admit any narcotics siezed are carefully labled and properly stored (as is proper and following SOP's), however if it is in the interest of an ongoing case then a target may not be apprenended and the narcotics load will move on into the system.
I am not suggesting these agents are not doing their jobs. What I am stating as fact is the investigative tactics often employed by those agents sends to more narcotics than not heading into the system in the ongoing drive to nail the next level supplier. Of course staffing is always an issue, but facts are facts. Moreover I have presented cases to Federal prosecutors and heard them state unequivocally unless my case was "a sure winner" they will not move forward with any prosecution.
DEA guys are good cops, and they are overworked as most of we in the community are. I am simply informing the previous person (whose quote I noted) that narcotics do walk during the course of investigations.
Not a problem BHT.
While working in the drug/vice/organized crime division of my Department my partner and I were attatched to the DEA satellite. Cases are generally made by municipalites and state departments then passed up to the DEA when it was impossible for smaller agencies to continue the investigation of a case with a limitied amount of buy money. It is par for the course to have a dealer order up from the "bigger fish" if you will, and the reality is DEA has access to larger sums of cash. I have seen money walk all time; Lots of it. I will admit any narcotics siezed are carefully labled and properly stored (as is proper and following SOP's), however if it is in the interest of an ongoing case then a target may not be apprenended and the narcotics load will move on into the system.
I am not suggesting these agents are not doing their jobs. What I am stating as fact is the investigative tactics often employed by those agents sends to more narcotics than not heading into the system in the ongoing drive to nail the next level supplier. Of course staffing is always an issue, but facts are facts. Moreover I have presented cases to Federal prosecutors and heard them state unequivocally unless my case was "a sure winner" they will not move forward with any prosecution.
DEA guys are good cops, and they are overworked as most of we in the community are. I am simply informing the previous person (whose quote I noted) that narcotics do walk during the course of investigations.
We make our money with our TFO's ad I am glad we have them in out Task Forces.... Yes we have deeper pockets but for the small street sales I think a lot of local narcotics units do it better as they are not as tied up with the process as we are. Yes small amounts are allowed to walk but size is in the eye of the beholder. Hell for the last 10 years I would not go out for less than 500 kilos since we were in the production zone........ My Buddy's in the states would kill for 100 kilo bust..... Hell here guys are jumping up and down for one kilo of HCL..... It is all perspective.....
AUSA's well they are lawyers so what can you say....... They want 100% wins or nothing..... we just had it out with one the other day because she wanted video not audio to advance the case. One of the guys brought the TGT in with 50kilos in this suitcase on video and she still was wishy washey........
Goggles Pizano
03-30-2011, 06:02
We make our money with our TFO's ad I am glad we have them in out Task Forces.... Yes we have deeper pockets but for the small street sales I think a lot of local narcotics units do it better as they are not as tied up with the process as we are. Yes small amounts are allowed to walk but size is in the eye of the beholder. Hell for the last 10 years I would not go out for less than 500 kilos since we were in the production zone........ My Buddy's in the states would kill for 100 kilo bust..... Hell here guys are jumping up and down for one kilo of HCL..... It is all perspective.....
AUSA's well they are lawyers so what can you say....... They want 100% wins or nothing..... we just had it out with one the other day because she wanted video not audio to advance the case. One of the guys brought the TGT in with 50kilos in this suitcase on video and she still was wishy washey........
I hear ya! Seems like our testimony and recorded confessions are simply not good enough for jurors anymore. Their mentality is "if I can't see AND hear it then it may not have actually happened". :mad:
You are quite correct-it truly is all about perspective. Here in the wonderful, wacky distribution zone guys are busting their asses, but it feels like pushing back the ocean with the proverbial broom. Biggest bust I can claim is one kilo in the basement of a target's house (after a four month investigation and a bit of good timing). Things on the street have shifted in the last seven years or so to less cocaine and more heroin and meth. We have a lot of farmland south of here and the DEA guys are making cases up and down the state. MC gangs are busier than ever again. It never ends.
Richard,
I have done a bit of research and have discovered it is better and more flavorful to chop garlic. One old trick I picked up in the Balkans is to finely chop the garlic and place it in a small bowl with just enough water to immerse it all. When ready to use just dump the water and the garlic into your concoction.
MVP