Welfare State: Handouts Make Up One-Third of U.S. Wages [Archive]

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Pete

03-08-2011, 18:19

Welfare State: Handouts Make Up One-Third of U.S. Wages

http://www.cnbc.com/id/41969508

"Government payouts—including Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance—make up more than a third of total wages and salaries of the U.S. population, a record figure that will only increase if action isn’t taken before the majority of Baby Boomers enter retirement......................."

While this story covers everything I'll bet including government pensions I'll like to remake a point I made a couple of years back about the bailouts.

"Create or save jobs"???????????????

They took the money to pay teachers and other public sector workers pay raises - like out in CA. Thats why Obama wants more education money in the buget. It's to continue to pay for the raises. When the federal government has to stop paying those public sector workers are going to take a huge hit.

The house of cards is getting a bit shakey.

GratefulCitizen

03-08-2011, 19:32

Scimitar

03-08-2011, 20:21

"Men have to be governed"
+1 if you can tell me where that quote comes from.

In this case they need to be governed by good old fear, if you want life, liberty and happiness feel free to fight for it, if you don't feel free to die or be a slave, pick one. I may not be a evolutionist, but I'm sure as damn a Social Darwinist.

Having done business and lived in a capitalistic country as well as a heavily socialist one I can tell you this much as an opinion.

1. - Handouts cause the breakdown in family. If you've only got your family to help in times of trouble, the greater family unit stays together a hell of alot better

2. - Handouts of all sorts take away the sub-lethal stimuli that all systems need to survive.
i.e. Make it too easy and the unit (in this case human) doesn't need to adapt any more. You're either adapting or dieing, which one are we doing as a nation?

Now don't get me wrong hand-outs have their place, but we're already way too far into in IMHO, now Obama nation wants to add more....

A favourite anaolgy comes to mind.

Running a country is like farming, It's a dirty job, The Dems live in this utopia dream land where their goal is for a perfect society. Farming ain't about perfection, it's about getting the damn job done. Ever tried farming without dirt!

I see this a lot with business grads, they'll run their department perfectly, and perfectly run it down the drain, or instead they learn that chaos is their friend and focus on the damn goal, The goal aint perfection it's production.

We're in one big competitive environment, and I tell you what we're losing our competitive advantage as a nation.

Just my $0.02

Scimitar

alelks

03-08-2011, 20:39

"Men have to be governed"
+1 if you can tell me where that quote comes from.

Depends. If it's the full quote "Men still have to be governed by deception" that that would be:

Georg Christoph Lichtenberg (1 July 1742 – 24 February 1799) who was a German scientist, satirist and Anglophile.

or

"Men are not governed by justice, but by law or persuasion. When they refuse to be governed by law or persuasion, they have to be governed by force or fraud, or both."
- George Bernard Shaw

Last hard class

03-08-2011, 20:46

"Men have to be governed"
+1 if you can tell me where that quote comes from.

My Wife.:D

LHC

GratefulCitizen

03-09-2011, 12:22

1.- Handouts cause the breakdown in family. If you've only got your family to help in times of trouble, the greater family unit stays together a hell of alot better

2. - Handouts of all sorts take away the sub-lethal stimuli that all systems need to survive.
i.e. Make it too easy and the unit (in this case human) doesn't need to adapt any more. You're either adapting or dieing, which one are we doing as a nation?

Handouts are fungible.
If the gov't pays for my food, housing, and healthcare, I can spend any money I make on drugs/alcohol.

Addicts won't stop when they are protected from consequences by enablers.
Uncle Sam is the biggest enabler.

Effectively, they are trading drugs for votes.
It is cruel and wrong.

greenberetTFS

03-09-2011, 12:53

Pete

03-09-2011, 13:00

Pete,

I don't consider Social Security or Medicare handouts........ :( The money I receive from these accounts I've paid into all my life,in fact I'm still paying into both since I'm working a part time job........:(

Big Teddy :munchin

Just wait until SS enacts a means cap on benifits (some people are talking about that issue right now). The higher earners paying the most in SS taxes will find out they get nothing.

And the common folks will chear and say they don't need it, they're rich.

The problem with that "soak the rich" line of thinking is once the line has been drawn its very easy to lower it.

The Reaper

03-09-2011, 13:54

Pete,

I don't consider Social Security or Medicare handouts........ :( The money I receive from these accounts I've paid into all my life,in fact I'm still paying into both since I'm working a part time job........:(

Big Teddy :munchin

And the money you paid in is gone. Turned into IOUs at the Treasury by politicians.

The money you are receiving is being paid by your kids, and eventually your grandkids.

If you live till your normal life expectancy, you will get a lot more back than you paid in. Especially when you consider all of the young unemployed people collecting Social Security disability payments for 40 or 50 years.

Ponzi scheme.

TR

GratefulCitizen

03-09-2011, 14:27

MOO- there should be two "tiers" of pensions in this country.

Early tier:
This should be available to professions where the person is putting themselves in harm's way for the benefit of everyone else (military, LE, emergency services).
The logic being that people in such professions should be encouraged to spend the strength of their youth for maximum effectiveness in the immediate.

Late tier:
This is for everyone else.
The logic being that everyone else should efficiently meter their strength and take care of their own health for maximum effectiveness over the long haul.

Incentives need to match the desired results.
Probably preaching to the choir on this, but it still makes sense.

kgoerz

03-09-2011, 14:35

Until it gets really bad nothing will change. But when drastic changes do come, you watch. It will be the working people who end up suffering the most. Higher Taxes, lower pay and benefits. It's funny, my financial situation was the same this tax year as the last. But my state refund was cut 80%. My Fed refund was 60% less. I also paid about $ 4000 more in this year.

Sigaba

03-09-2011, 14:48

It will be the working people who end up suffering the most.In that case, the unions have nothing to worry about.

(Did that sound bitter?)

Paslode

03-09-2011, 15:05

And the money you paid in is gone. Turned into IOUs at the Treasury by politicians.

According to a 2005 Cato article:

It's the ultimate insult. Congress spends our Social Security taxes then expects us to pay more taxes to repay its borrowing. To date, Congress has borrowed and spent more than $1.7 trillion of Social Security taxes. This year it will borrow another $60 billion.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3970

A growing number of Public employees are pissed because State Governments are messing with their guaranteed pensions......I would say Social Security will follow suite in the near future and much of the protest we see and will see is endorsed/pimped by the Head Agitator that resides in the oval office.

Personally I don't think it is right to 'contribute' to something under the guise that your going to get a return when in fact I will likely be left in same fashion as Bernie Madolfs investors. And secondly I don't believe I should have my taxes raised to support the outlandish pensions/benefits of public sector workers.

On the other side of the coin many of those same public sector workers, entitlement beneficiaries and their agitators feel the solution to the financial woes is to raise taxes on the private sector.

As far as I am concerned we can all suck it up and suffer through this together or we can have one hell of a bloody brawl.

Scimitar

03-09-2011, 15:54

Depends. If it's the full quote "Men still have to be governed by deception" that that would be:

Georg Christoph Lichtenberg (1 July 1742 – 24 February 1799) who was a German scientist, satirist and Anglophile.

or

"Men are not governed by justice, but by law or persuasion. When they refuse to be governed by law or persuasion, they have to be governed by force or fraud, or both."
- George Bernard Shaw

Show off :D

I was quoting Russell Crowe on "Master and Commander" but I like your high brow stuff better. :D

Buffalobob

03-10-2011, 08:06

I don't consider Social Security or Medicare handouts........ The money I receive from these accounts I've paid into all my life,in fact I'm still paying into both since I'm working a part time job........

Big Teddy

Me too!!! Every quarter I pay my estimated taxes and settle it up at the end of the year. I have a part time consulting business because despite what the run off at the mouth people say, I'm not rich from my retirement pension.

I have seen three studies on our generation (Vietnam era) and SS benefits. One study says we will die without getting out what we paid in. One study says we will just about break even on what we paid in. Last study says we are parasites. So if you average them out you get about a break even situation, but that doesn't sell well with some political factions.

But bottom line to me is that this is not a handout any more than military retirement pay is a handout or VA services to a wounded vet. We all did what was asked and put in the time or money that was asked and now that it is time for us to receive what we we paid for. People want to run their mouths for long periods of time to justify cheating us.

greenberetTFS

03-10-2011, 08:25

Me too!!! Every quarter I pay my estimated taxes and settle it up at the end of the year. I have a part time consulting business because despite what the run off at the mouth people say, I'm not rich from my retirement pension.

I have seen three studies on our generation (Vietnam era) and SS benefits. One study says we will die without getting out what we paid in. One study says we will just about break even on what we paid in. Last study says we are parasites. So if you average them out you get about a break even situation, but that doesn't sell well with some political factions.

But bottom line to me is that this is not a handout any more than military retirement pay is a handout or VA services to a wounded vet. We all did what was asked and put in the time or money that was asked and now that it is time for us to receive what we we paid for. People want to run their mouths for long periods of time to justify cheating us.

BB,

I wonder when these young men become eligible for collecting their SS benefits if they'll not accept them based on their principles.............:(

Big Teddy :munchin

1stindoor

03-10-2011, 08:35

Pete,

I don't consider Social Security or Medicare handouts........ :( The money I receive from these accounts I've paid into all my life,in fact I'm still paying into both since I'm working a part time job........:(

Big Teddy :munchin

Social Security and Medicare themselves are not handouts...especially to those that have paid into the system either willingly or unwillingly their whole lives.

The problem is the term "social security" is lumped together with every form of federal handout.

The Reaper

03-10-2011, 09:55

BB,

I wonder when these young men become eligible for collecting their SS benefits if they'll not accept them based on their principles.............:(

Big Teddy :munchin

Social Security payments, for someone who has worked a career and paid in, is not welfare. It is an entitlement program though. At the same time, I do not think it is prudent for anyone under 40 (maybe under 50) to count on retiring solely on SS. I am 53 and do not expect that I will receive anywhere near the amount I paid in, nor do I plan to retire on SS, nor do I expect the SS rules to remain the same for my retirement, nor do I want my kids taxed to death to pay for my retirement. That is why I have worked hard to save money for retirement in IRAs, 401Ks, etc. Even those investments are starting to look shaky, as are military retirement and VA disability payments.

Not pointing fingers, but too many Americans today are consumed entirely by immediate gratification with little, if any thought toward the future. "Don't worry, someone will pay to take care of us!"

There is nothing in the SS Trust now but promissory notes to the Federal Government, from the Federal Government. You can think your elected representatives for that. We spent our savings for tomorrow on more things today. When the SS taxes triple and quadruple for the ever fewer payees (our kids and grandkids) to keep increasing numbers of elderly recipients paid, the system will break and something will have to change. I have no issue with raising the retirement age for younger members, limited means testing, limiting lifetime benefits, etc., and assume that I will be in that group.

Medicare and Medicaid are in even worse shape, with greater liabilities.

You can keep ignoring fiscal facts and demanding government checks. Watch them worth increasingly less, till the government becomes insolvent and the train runs off the cliff. Then we will all get no checks from the government, which coincidentally, is much more in accordance with the intent of the Founding Fathers than the gravy train with biscuit wheels we currently enjoy.

If you bought silver last year, you would have doubled your money already. Why? Is silver really more expensive? No. The fact is that commodities are in demand due to the monetizing of debt and the printing of fiat currency. In real terms, the dollar has lost huge amounts of its value in the past few months due to the fiscal irresponsibility of our elected representatives and our demand for greater and greater government financing of our lives.

How many countries on this planet consider people (many not even citizens here) with secure housing, plenty of food, cars, cell phones, cable TVs, jewelry, expensive clothing, college grants, etc. to be impoverished and in need of public assistance?

The People have discovered that they can elect representatives who will redistribute funds to them from the public treasury, and bread and circuses are being provided aplenty. Roughly half of the people in this country pay no Federal income taxes, and they vote. The People are addicted and the politicians are giving them what they want in the form of borrowed money. How long can you continue to print money with no basis? Other countries have already quit buying our bonds. There is a reason for that. Ever increasing deficit spending is not a long-term fiscal plan, and it is unsustainable.

It is my responsibility to care for my parents as well as my children, and my responsibility to prepare for my own retirement. Not the Federal government's or my fellow citizens'. Maybe the coming failure will help revive two-parent families and extended families and restore a sense of personal responsibility.

Make no mistake, the storm is coming gentlemen, and I do not think we can fix things before it arrives. ALL entitlement programs would have to be put on the block and reviewed, and I do not think that is going to happen.

The system is self-correcting though, at the extremes.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

kgoerz

03-10-2011, 16:37

Social Security and Medicare themselves are not handouts...especially to those that have paid into the system either willingly or unwillingly their whole lives.

The problem is the term "social security" is lumped together with every form of federal handout.

I saw that also. How is something a hand out when I paid into it my whole life. That like saying our Military pensions are Handouts. Do all people receive the same SS amount? Or do's it go by how much you put in over you lifetime.

Pete

03-10-2011, 17:28

I saw that also. How is something a hand out when I paid into it my whole life. That like saying our Military pensions are Handouts. Do all people receive the same SS amount? Or do's it go by how much you put in over you lifetime.

There is a basic level and a maximum level. The statement you get every year lists the money you've paid in and the estimated payment you'll get if you retire early or wait for full retirement.

My max rate varies some each year with my earnings.

But waiting for max retirement if you take what you paid in and divide by your monthly payment you'll exhaust "your money" in less than 5 years (+/-).

Cynic

03-10-2011, 17:49

Social Security was never intended as a living wage:

"We can never insure one hundred percent of the population against one hundred percent of the hazards and vicissitudes of life, but we have tried to frame a law which will give some measure of protection to the average citizen and to his family against the loss of a job and against poverty-ridden old age."--
President Roosevelt upon signing Social Security Act

Social Security resulted when the shift from farming to industry caused a shift in how society valued the family unit. Again from Roosevelt:

"Security was attained in the earlier days through the interdependence of members of families upon each other and of the families within a small community upon each other. The complexities of great communities and of organized industry make less real these simple means of security. Therefore, we are compelled to employ the active interest of the Nation as a whole through government in order to encourage a greater security for each individual who composes it . . . This seeking for a greater measure of welfare and happiness does not indicate a change in values. It is rather a return to values lost in the course of our economic development and expansion . . ."
Franklin D. Roosevelt: Message of the President to Congress, June 8, 1934.

Social Security payments, for someone who has worked a career and paid in, is not welfare. It is an entitlement program though. At the same time, I do not think it is prudent for anyone under 40 (maybe under 50) to count on retiring solely on SS. I am 53 and do not expect that I will receive anywhere near the amount I paid in, nor do I plan to retire on SS, nor do I expect the SS rules to remain the same for my retirement, nor do I want my kids taxed to death to pay for my retirement. That is why I have worked hard to save money for retirement in IRAs, 401Ks, etc. Even those investments are starting to look shaky, as are military retirement and VA disability payments.
TR

Great analysis/advice IMHO. I cringe when I review the rise and fall of our retirement savings.

kgoerz

03-10-2011, 18:00

Funny how much faith I have had in SS. In all the plans I have, 401k, IRA, pension...etc. SS helping me out in the future has never crossed my mind. I bet I'm not the only one.

Retiredfire

03-10-2011, 19:24

What about the single largest block of the federal budget is that a handout? Social Security is spending more than it takes in by using its contingency fund at a rate that it will be completely depleted it in 25 years). Corporate profits are at unprecedented levels while high paying jobs are being outsourced oversees. Sure we have some new job creation if you want to work in a low paying/service type industry. :boohoo
But look at the bright side, maybe some of our laid off teachers can go work in Iraq or Afghanistan (we did build them some nice schools).
These stories are nothing more than Murdock/Koch propaganda to fuel discontent among the very same people they hope to recruit to their cause.
The populous has always loved a good scapegoat.

Buffalobob

03-11-2011, 19:32

Somedays my tolerances are low.

GratefulCitizen

03-11-2011, 21:29

The big problem from my understanding is Medicare. I am not sure how to fix that (maybe also raising the age to receive it?).

Complete deregulation of the medical industry might do the trick.
There is too much of a bottleneck in training new medical providers.

Doubtful that would ever happen within our borders.
(However, unlicensed practices may start popping up in places like Belize and Costa Rica to deal with overflow.)

MOO-
Much of the medical "supply" problem might be solved by increasing participation of NPs and PAs in roles which have been traditionally filled by MDs/DOs.
A new pattern may emerge where MDs/DOs effectively become administrators over ever-larger staffs of NPs/PAs.

Retiredfire

03-11-2011, 22:28

Everything from dental implants to breast implants can be had in an unlicensed environment within our own borders. In South Fl. (although one does need to speak spanish) al kinds of Dominican,Cuban and Columbian trained Physicians and Dentists are providing their services out private residences to their communities who either cant afford or choose not to utilize conventional (licensed) medical providers.

tonyz

03-12-2011, 09:06

Unlicensed practice of medicine is a problem in places other than Florida.

Below is an excerpt from an article about one problem in Massachusetts - there are many others.

http://www.surgery.org/consumers/plastic-surgery-news-briefs/pair-unlicensed-cosmetic-surgeons-arrested-revere-massachusetts-1030330

Now, if they could just bust these phony docs BEFORE they continue to lobotomize the ENTIRE Massachusetts electorate.

"Victor H. Hernandez and Maria Jose do Nascimento were recently arrested by undercover police officers who entered their Revere, Massachusetts clinic in August and discovered that they were performing liposuction and tummy tuck procedures (among others), without a license, according to The Boston Globe.

The couple was also accused of offering prescription painkillers to patients.

"Their activities could have easily led to the death or serious injuries of any of their patients," assistant district attorney Kathryn Hinman said during the arraignment, according to the news provider.

One woman who went to the clinic for regular spa treatments told the news source that she hadn't known that the two were unlicensed doctors and that, usually, the building was full of patients waiting to undergo procedures.

In court, Hernandez and Nascimento pleaded not guilty to the charges, which included unauthorized practice of medicine and distributing Class E substances. Hernandez was also charged with stealing Lidocaine, a local anesthetic.

Hernandez became an American citizen 18 months ago, but served in the Navy until 1994, according to the news source. He also claims to have attended a medical school in Mexico, but wouldn't give additional details.

Nascimento hails from Brazil and has lived in the United States for eight years. Her attorney told the news outlet that she was mostly responsible for administrative work for the clinic and was unaware that Hernandez did not have a license.

However, Hinman informed the news source that Nascimento had already been an employee of another unlicensed physician who was arrested for charges similar to those that Hernandez faces.

It appears that Boston authorities are taking this case very seriously, in part because it is so similar to a 2006 incident in Framingham, Massachusetts. Fabiola B. DePaula, a 24-year-old woman, died as a result of a liposuction surgery conducted in a basement.

"We've already seen what can happen when surgical procedures are performed by people without legitimate training and licensure," Suffolk district attorney Daniel Conley told the news provider. "Local, state, and federal authorities are trying to keep it from happening again."

ZonieDiver

03-12-2011, 12:26

SS and Medicare aren't handouts, because people paid into those systems their whole lives. However, there are problems regarding how to fund them. Gradually raising the SS retirement age can probably do a lot ot help the SS system.

The big problem from my understanding is Medicare. I am not sure how to fix that (maybe also raising the age to receive it?).

When did Medicare start? When did people begin to draw benefits? Does that time period constitute "their whole lives"?

alright4u

03-12-2011, 14:05

Social Security payments, for someone who has worked a career and paid in, is not welfare. It is an entitlement program though. At the same time, I do not think it is prudent for anyone under 40 (maybe under 50) to count on retiring solely on SS. I am 53 and do not expect that I will receive anywhere near the amount I paid in, nor do I plan to retire on SS, nor do I expect the SS rules to remain the same for my retirement, nor do I want my kids taxed to death to pay for my retirement. That is why I have worked hard to save money for retirement in IRAs, 401Ks, etc. Even those investments are starting to look shaky, as are military retirement and VA disability payments.

Not pointing fingers, but too many Americans today are consumed entirely by immediate gratification with little, if any thought toward the future. "Don't worry, someone will pay to take care of us!"

There is nothing in the SS Trust now but promissory notes to the Federal Government, from the Federal Government. You can think your elected representatives for that. We spent our savings for tomorrow on more things today. When the SS taxes triple and quadruple for the ever fewer payees (our kids and grandkids) to keep increasing numbers of elderly recipients paid, the system will break and something will have to change. I have no issue with raising the retirement age for younger members, limited means testing, limiting lifetime benefits, etc., and assume that I will be in that group.

Medicare and Medicaid are in even worse shape, with greater liabilities.

You can keep ignoring fiscal facts and demanding government checks. Watch them worth increasingly less, till the government becomes insolvent and the train runs off the cliff. Then we will all get no checks from the government, which coincidentally, is much more in accordance with the intent of the Founding Fathers than the gravy train with biscuit wheels we currently enjoy.

If you bought silver last year, you would have doubled your money already. Why? Is silver really more expensive? No. The fact is that commodities are in demand due to the monetizing of debt and the printing of fiat currency. In real terms, the dollar has lost huge amounts of its value in the past few months due to the fiscal irresponsibility of our elected representatives and our demand for greater and greater government financing of our lives.

How many countries on this planet consider people (many not even citizens here) with secure housing, plenty of food, cars, cell phones, cable TVs, jewelry, expensive clothing, college grants, etc. to be impoverished and in need of public assistance?

The People have discovered that they can elect representatives who will redistribute funds to them from the public treasury, and bread and circuses are being provided aplenty. Roughly half of the people in this country pay no Federal income taxes, and they vote. The People are addicted and the politicians are giving them what they want in the form of borrowed money. How long can you continue to print money with no basis? Other countries have already quit buying our bonds. There is a reason for that. Ever increasing deficit spending is not a long-term fiscal plan, and it is unsustainable.

It is my responsibility to care for my parents as well as my children, and my responsibility to prepare for my own retirement. Not the Federal government's or my fellow citizens'. Maybe the coming failure will help revive two-parent families and extended families and restore a sense of personal responsibility.

Make no mistake, the storm is coming gentlemen, and I do not think we can fix things before it arrives. ALL entitlement programs would have to be put on the block and reviewed, and I do not think that is going to happen.

The system is self-correcting though, at the extremes.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Most of my SF pals are NCO's and all are retired. Those men were not well off in 90-even 2000 or so. When the Gov allowed retirement plus VA disability, a number of my pals went to over 6K a month with their SOC SEC, plus VA and Military retirement. Those NCO's earned it. I say great for the NCO's.

Now, my LTC ran his mouth in front of those NCO's that he made 8K a month plus with his VA 100% for BP. He had no Civilian job.

I pulled our CO aside and told him the NCO's damn sure did not want to hear about his VA 100% for blood pressure/heart. Damn.