View Full Version : Lara Logan sexually assaulted...
greenberetTFS
02-16-2011, 11:24
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/cbs-news-lara-logan-expected-100276
I like this gal and it's really sad to hear this happen to her...........:(
Big Teddy :munchin
F'ing savages :mad: that's just sickening.
I hope Ms. Logan has a speedy recovery.
The Reaper
02-16-2011, 11:38
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/cbs-news-lara-logan-expected-100276
I like this gal and it's really sad to hear this happen to her...........:(
Big Teddy :munchin
I am sorry it happened as well, but if you went to the wrong part of town during a riot just to talk to people and see what was going on, and got your ass beat, whose fault would it be?
The media seems to think that they are immune from their environment.
TR
DJ Urbanovsky
02-16-2011, 11:57
Is it horrible? Yes. Are they animals? Yes. But I agree with The Reaper... I mean really, she's a blond white American girl in the middle of a week long riot in Egypt... Maybe she wasn't expecting that particular thing to happen, but she had to have expected that something might happen... The US state dept was advising our citizens to exit the country, yeah? So what makes anybody think that Egypt would be a safe place to be, especially for a woman that looks like that? I think this simply illustrates that, apparently, there is still a price to be paid for stupidity.
The MSM
stir it up,
make it stink,
then walk in it,
get awards for writing about it,
and still think it can't stick to them??
Would not wish it on anyone,, but she went looking...
Same goes for the dummies that got beat up..
:mad:
Is it horrible? Yes. Are they animals? Yes. But I agree with The Reaper... I mean really, she's a blond white American girl in the middle of a week long riot in Egypt... Maybe she wasn't expecting that particular thing to happen, but she had to have expected that something might happen... The US state dept was advising our citizens to exit the country, yeah? So what makes anybody think that Egypt would be a safe place to be, especially for a woman that looks like that? I think this simply illustrates that, apparently, there is still a price to be paid for stupidity.Ms. Logan, 39, is a citizen of the Republic of South Africa. Her bio is here (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/02/broadcasts/main531421.shtml).
DJ Urbanovsky
02-16-2011, 12:16
I stand corrected.
Still not a good place for a blond white girl to be.
Ms. Logan, 39, is a citizen of the Republic of South Africa. Her bio is here (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/02/broadcasts/main531421.shtml).
I stand corrected.
Still not a good place for a blond white girl to be.DJ--
You're missing my point so I'll be a bit more direct.
A seasoned professional journalist has paid the price for a calculated risk. For that risk, she's nothing more than "a blond white girl" guilty of her own "stupidity."
greenberetTFS
02-16-2011, 13:09
She's got cajones(?).....I saw her on 60 Minutes where she was embedded and went out on a mission with the 101st into a very hot zone and they got pinned down and had to fight their way out...... She just hung in there and showed no sign of being scared just kept on reporting and stating "these guys are going to get us out of here,I know it,I just know they will"............:) Not too bad for a reporter with that kind of guts..........;) She had an interview with a reporter from Esquire who said does CBS insure this kind of sh*t..... Her answer was,"it goes with the job"............;)
Big Teddy :munchin
A more detailed review of the situation:
Lara Logan, the CBS News correspondent, was attacked and sexually assaulted by a mob in Cairo on Feb. 11, the day that the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak was forced from power, the network said Tuesday.
After the mob surrounded her, Ms. Logan “suffered a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating before being saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers,” the network said in a statement. Ms. Logan is recovering at a hospital in the United States.
The evening of the attack, Ms. Logan, 39, the network’s chief foreign affairs correspondent, was covering the celebrations in Tahrir Square in central Cairo with a camera crew and an unknown number of security staff members. The CBS team was enveloped by “a dangerous element” within the crowd, CBS said, that numbered more than 200 people. That mob separated Ms. Logan from her team and then attacked her.
Once she was rescued, CBS said she “reconnected” with the team and returned to the United States on Feb. 12.
The CBS statement mentioned nothing more about the attackers. It also said that there would be “no further comment from CBS News, and correspondent Logan and her family respectfully request privacy at this time.”
Before she returned to Cairo on Feb. 10, she told the Web site of Esquire magazine that she thought her team included one security staff member. Equipped with expensive cameras and bright lights, television news crews regularly travel with security experts who assess threats in dangerous locations.
The trip was Ms. Logan’s second to Egypt to cover the protests that have roiled the country in January and February. On her first trip, she was detained and interrogated overnight by security authorities.
During the protests, the Committee to Protect Journalists registered 53 assaults on journalists. It did not delineate the genders of the people affected. There were also dozens of cases of harassment during the weeks of protests, and some female journalists complained about being singled out by crowds. There were no other known sexual assaults.
The committee, whose board includes Ms. Logan, said Tuesday evening in a statement: “We have seen Lara’s compassion at work while helping journalists who have faced brutal aggression while doing their jobs. She is a brilliant, courageous, and committed reporter. Our thoughts are with Lara as she recovers.”
There is little information available about instances of sexual assault affecting journalists. In an article for the Columbia Journalism Review in 2007, the writer, Judith Matloff, wrote that foreign correspondents rarely tell anyone, “even when the abuse is rape.”
http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/15/cbs-lara-logan-suffered-brutal-attack-in-cairo/?scp=2&sq=lara%20logan&st=cse
Over 350 Egyptians were killed in the protests against Mubarak; Ms Logan, a veteran and extremely experienced ME reporter, and her news and security team took a calculated risk - obviously, they misjudged the heightened level of the risks they were assuming.
Richard :munchin
DJ Urbanovsky
02-16-2011, 13:43
If I, a bald white dude, go walking down the street in 5th Ward TX or Compton CA, I shouldn't be surprised if a group of fine young men decide they want to try and play whack-a-mole with my head, because in going to these places, I've made myself a target.
That's what Ms. Logan did. Just the simple fact that she was there made her a target. And something terrible happened to her. That sucks. I think the guys that perpetrated that disgusting act should be strung up and subjected to Leng-Tche. But it doesn't change the fact that maybe, just maybe, it was a poor decision for her to be there.
Skydiving is a calculated risk. Scuba diving is a calculated risk. Serving on an ODA with your teammates is a calculated risk. Being a white girl and walking into the middle of a massive riot in Egypt, when citizens of other countries are fleeing the region, a region with a strong radical element where women tend to not be respected as they are in other cultures, I call that poor decision making. Frenzied crowds of people tend to do bad things, and journalists, seasoned or not, are ill equipped to deal with situations like that. I'd like to think a seasoned journalist would recognize that fact. But apparently, some don't.
How do you defend yourself against a crowd of 200, frantic, determined people? You can't. The best way to avoid an attack is to not be there.
DJ--
You're missing my point so I'll be a bit more direct.
A seasoned professional journalist has paid the price for a calculated risk. For that risk, she's nothing more than "a blond white girl" guilty of her own "stupidity."
If I, a bald white dude, go walking down the street in 5th Ward TX or Compton CA, I shouldn't be surprised if a group of fine young men decide they want to try and play whack-a-mole with my head, because in going to these places, I've made myself a target.
That's what Ms. Logan did. Just the simple fact that she was there made her a target. And something terrible happened to her. That sucks. I think the guys that perpetrated that disgusting act should be strung up and subjected to Leng-Tche. But it doesn't change the fact that maybe, just maybe, it was a poor decision for her to be there.
Skydiving is a calculated risk. Scuba diving is a calculated risk. Serving on an ODA with your teammates is a calculated risk. Being a white girl and walking into the middle of a massive riot in Egypt, when citizens of other countries are fleeing the region, a region with a strong radical element where women tend to not be respected as they are in other cultures, I call that poor decision making. Frenzied crowds of people tend to do bad things, and journalists, seasoned or not, are ill equipped to deal with situations like that. I'd like to think a seasoned journalist would recognize that fact. But apparently, some don't.
How do you defend yourself against a crowd of 200, frantic, determined people? You can't. The best way to avoid an attack is to not be there.It is noteworthy that you insist on calling an adult who is your age a 'girl.' So when you speak of regions where "women tend not to be respected as they are in other cultures" are you including your own among those "other cultures"? Or does that respect only apply to 'girls' who behave as you see fit?
The fact that you equate Compton to Egypt is, bluntly, instructive. Doubtlessly, she, and you, would be perfectly safe in South Boston.
The Reaper
02-16-2011, 15:18
IMO, so is jumping out of a perfectly good airplane, but some people do it for a living.
It's her job. She knew the risks, and it certainly doesn't sound like she's whining and begging for oodles of sympathy.
So exactly how is her "decision making " a "poor" one, but to leap out of an airplane into a combat zone is a " calculated risk? "
Because as a civilian, you can always choose to vote with your feet and refuse a job, but in the military, that will land you in jail, except at certain windows of opportunity when a contract ends.
I would rather make 100 jumps than to wade into that crowd unarmed as a foreigner, a female, and an infidel. It is just a better risk.
Frankly, not to take anything away from Ms. Logan, but whover decided that she needed to be in that crowd on foot (after other media personnel were assaulted starting several days before) is IMHO, culpable. Maybe it was her boss, maybe it was her. Poor decisions (and sometimes good ones) have consequences.
TR
Frankly, not to take anything away from Ms. Logan, but whover decided that she needed to be in that crowd on foot (after other media personnel were assaulted starting several days before) is IMHO, culpable. Maybe it was her boss, maybe it was her. Poor decisions (and sometimes good ones) have consequences.
TR
Very well said, TR Sir.
WTF were her or her employer thinking? Stupidity, and manipulation on the part of those in charge of her little "mission." At least to some extent, IMVHO.
Holly:munchin
IMO, the issue with Mrs. Logan is not that she wasn't doing her job, but that she allowed her desire to get "inside" override logic and put herself in harm's way. With today's technology, she could have been in a safe place with a telescopic lens that would of allowed her to see a gnat a half mile away. Many other reporters were doing their stories from various points of safety and I don't think any less of them than I would of her.
Again, IMO, reporters, not just her, tend to put their safety aside at times to jockey the "best story and perspective" from certain events. I think they all, at times, put their safety aside in order to not only provide us with the news, but to get a better story than the "other guys", even at the risk of their own safety.
With that said, I think their desire for the story intentionally puts them in harm's way and they don't think about it until they find themselves on the wrong end of a bad situation.
Because as a civilian, you can always choose to vote with your feet and refuse a job, but in the military, that will land you in jail, except at certain windows of opportunity when a contract ends.
I would rather make 100 jumps than to wade into that crowd unarmed as a foreigner, a female, and an infidel. It is just a better risk.
Frankly, not to take anything away from Ms. Logan, but whoever decided that she needed to be in that crowd on foot (after other media personnel were assaulted starting several days before) is IMHO, culpable. Maybe it was her boss, maybe it was her. Poor decisions (and sometimes good ones) have consequences.
TR
CBS has been pretty silent about this. I think there is going to be a back lash. Even thou she wanted to do it. Somebody gave her the green light to go there.
They are savages who have to keep their own woman wrapped in sheets. Because they have no self control. Let alone a good looking Blond Woman. I have seen this woman in person. She is head turning good looking. I am sure the plan to grab her started as soon as she stepped out on the street.
Yes, TR, but you can choose not to go into the military in the first place, therefore avoiding the situation all together.
I will never ever be bitten by a shark, because I will never go into the ocean deeper than my knees.
Ms. Logan is the Foreign Correspondent, I'm not sure that anyone "made a decision" about her going to Egypt, it's just what she does. I'm sure that, as a woman, with a dangerous job, rape was and has always been part of the possible equation.
550,
I must disagree with you on this one, and especially as a woman! The folks who are paid to deliver the news are well-known by their corporate higher ups. They are known for their personality traits, their carrer goals, and their tolerance for the uncomfortable.
Am 100% SURE OF THIS FACTOR, AS THE $$$ BACKING THESE EXCURSIONS IS PAID FOR BY SOMEONE...AND THAT SOMEONE WANTS TO GET WHAT THEY PAY FOR.:munchin
DJ Urbanovsky
02-16-2011, 15:51
It's about the particular subset of risk. There is a world of difference risk-wise between being trained to jump out of an airplane and walking out into a riot. You can't even begin to compare the two. Crowds of people are unpredictable at best. Look at what LA natives do when the Lakers win. And that's when they're happy!
Nowhere did I suggest that she was looking for sympathy.
We can call her courageous and ballsy all we want. But I'm sure that she and her team had access to the info that Richard just posted. To look at that intel, at those facts, and chose to ignore them just for the sake of getting the scoop? That's stupid. Now, she and her family are going to be dealing with the repercussions of that traumatic event for the rest of their lives. An event that could have been avoided if just one person in that group had exercised some common sense.
The facts of the matter were (based just on what I gleaned from Richard's post):
Before she re-entered the country, she told Esquire mag that she thought her team had one security advisor. She thought? Really? I'd think she'd want to be damn sure about something like that. Do we have a security adviser? I think we do...
On her first trip to Egypt at the onset of the riots, she was detained and interrogated by security officials. Detained and interrogated.
During the protests, there were 53 registered assaults on journalists. 53. And those are just the ones that were reported. Not to mention what was happening to non-journalists, but there probably wasn't an organization to keep track of that.
There were dozens of cases of harassment.
Women were singled out.
To me, there is a difference between courage and stupidity. She may be a hyper intelligent person, but even smart people do dumb things. I'm not trying to be a dick or offensive or insensitive about this. I'm trying to be real.
Everybody has decisions to make. Nobody is responsible for your personal safety but you. It was Ms. Logan's decision to board a plane, go to Egypt, disregard available intel, and wander around on the street in a riot with a camera crew. The nail that sticks out is the one that gets hammered. And just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. I maintain that it was a stupid decision. Armed with the facts I just presented, I don't think there's a soul among us who would have said "It's not that bad out there, Ms. Logan. Let's go on out into the crowd."
IMO, so is jumping out of a perfectly good airplane, but some people do it for a living.
It's her job. She knew the risks, and it certainly doesn't sound like she's whining and begging for oodles of sympathy.
So exactly how is her "decision making " a "poor" one, but to leap out of an airplane into a combat zone is a " calculated risk? "
........ With today's technology, she could have been in a safe place with a telescopic lens that would of allowed her to see a gnat a half mile away. .......
Hurricane Season is coming this summer. Get a big one hit the coast how many reporters will be standing out in the wind and the rain struggling to stay upright and hang onto a pole and the Mic?
They could just crack the door, point the camera outside and say "See!".
Get the story is just what reporters do. Being the firstest, mostest, closest - it's just what they do. To get the scoop.
I'm not saying it's smart - it just ain't going to change.
GratefulCitizen
02-16-2011, 15:54
Large, unruly crowds are dangerous.
Don't be in one if it isn't necessary.
If a problem starts, "defense" isn't a solution.
There is a word for someone who isn't capable of effective offensive action in that circumstance: target.
DJ Urbanovsky
02-16-2011, 16:21
I don't think I appreciate your superior tone.
Last I heard, there were two genders. Guys and girls. Dudes and chicks. There's no need to get all hypersensitive.
What I said about me going for a walk in Compton is figurative, not literal. I said that to illustrate a point. "One of these things is not like the other..." I believe I suggested as much above when I said that the nail that sticks out gets hammered. The irony that, in this very thread, I might be the nail, is not lost on me.
I have read many of your posts. It seems to me that you are a reasonable and intelligent person. So why the acrimony and hair splitting?
It is noteworthy that you insist on calling an adult who is your age a 'girl.' So when you speak of regions where "women tend not to be respected as they are in other cultures" are you including your own among those "other cultures"? Or does that respect only apply to 'girls' who behave as you see fit?
The fact that you equate Compton to Egypt is, bluntly, instructive. Doubtlessly, she, and you, would be perfectly safe in South Boston.
If I run into a pack of hungry Lions and get killed. Who's fault is it.
She probably thought they would act like German Caucasians, when the Wall came down. Nope, just sub Humans all of them.
If I run into a pack of hungry Lions and get killed. Who's fault is it.
She probably thought they would act like German Caucasians, when the Wall came down. Nope, just sub Humans all of them.
Am a woman, and could not have surmised the the situation any better.
Spot on, IMHO!
It is noteworthy that you insist on calling an adult who is your age a 'girl.' So when you speak of regions where "women tend not to be respected as they are in other cultures" are you including your own among those "other cultures"? Or does that respect only apply to 'girls' who behave as you see fit?
The fact that you equate Compton to Egypt is, bluntly, instructive. Doubtlessly, she, and you, would be perfectly safe in South Boston.
Sigaba,
What in the world are you saying??? Seriously????:rolleyes:
HOlly
I have two interesting connections which may shed some light on this.
A coworker is good friends with Lara Logan, and I had the opportunity to meet her and sit in on a several hour discussion on Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Middle East about a year ago before she went on air that day. Obviously, she is very aggressive, and based on the stories she told about working in Afghanistan and interviewing Taliban, she is clearly not someone who is most concerned with her safety. I was impressed and surprised by her, but she clearly took her job more seriously than her safety. What was surprising is what she wore to the meeting and in public. I do not know if she dressed like that in Cairo, but I imagine given her personality as I witnessed, heard from her, and saw her picture several minutes before the incident, she was not appropriately dressed and drew a bunch of unecessary attention to her. In a protest where probably over 40% of the people in the city live on $2 a day (the turnout of poor in these protests was most likely proportionaly much higher), have been repressed by their government and are sexually repressed, this is not only surprising but likely. There is a reason Egyptian women were very cautious in turning out to these protests, and this is one reason.
Second, I studied at the American University in Cairo for seven months where I regularly interacted with the rich and poor there. My sister and my mother visited me there, and I incidentally had to give them instructions on how to prepare and interact. This required me to learn a little about this - they had no problems while there, and both are blondes. My sister and I were out past 2 AM walking the streets several times without problem.
There seems to be in some of the prior posts an intimation that this incident is tied to the religion and the high levels of religiousity, but this really can't be further from the truth. Egypt is a religiously mixed society and a particularly mysogynistic society, and the public women hating comes primarily from the less religious. These are the particularly uneducated and poor who are sexually frustrated. One example: A cab driver showed a blond friend of mine in the cab sexual images on his cell phone when in a ride - he didn't do this out of religiousity, but because he is sexually frustrated. I was very close friends with three women in Cairo (varying religiousity, including one Coptic). They experienced little problems because they dressed appropriately, didn't show their arms, and had dark hair. One friend of mine with blond hair died it dark to draw less attention. Many women wear sunglasses to avoid eye contact etc. There are a lot of discussions in Cairo about it being unfair that they need to dress a certain way to avoid harrassment, but the point is that it exists, and more so and in a very different form than other more conservative Arab countries or Liberal countries like Lebanon.
Logan needed to not only be aware of these norms, but attempt to meet them. She put herself in an unfortunate position, and the result should not surprise any resident of Cairo, although I'm sure it dissapoints many.
Stu
I'm not terribly popular right now. And I don't care. If someone told me to go into an angry mob, with or without whatever they deemed "ok" for protection, I'd tell them to pound sand. There is my career/job and then there is MY LIFE.
There is, IMNSHO, a huge difference between this reporter going in to a war zone embedded with Military members and this situation.
Situational awareness, it's not just for Soldiers. I don't think she deserves what happened at all. And I'm not saying she "asked for it" by being there. But damn, where is your brain?
I've been waiting for something like this to happen, all you have to do is put 2 and 2 together. Volatile area + raging angry men in a culture that hate/disdain women at best = big trouble. Huge.
If Danica Patrick crashes, it's not the car's fault.
dr. mabuse
02-16-2011, 18:40
*
The woman is an intelligent and dedicated professional - she and those who advise and support her made a grievous error. It could have been worse and will be interesting to see how it all plays out in the future.
Richard :munchin
The woman is an intelligent and dedicated professional - she and those who advise and support her made a grievous error.
Religiously motivated? Why would anyone want to lunge at anything labeled Jew:confused:
Lara Logan was repeatedly sexually assaulted by thugs yelling, "Jew! Jew!"
Source: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/cbs_reporter_cairo_nightmare_pXiUVvhwIDdCrbD95ybD5 N
What if she was perceived to have been Muslim?
ETA
An Egyptian attorney encourages the rape of Jewish Women:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAbYodZ7Fp4
Eagle5US
02-16-2011, 19:20
Religiously motivated? Why would anyone want to lunge at anything labeled Jew:confused:
Source: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/cbs_reporter_cairo_nightmare_pXiUVvhwIDdCrbD95ybD5 N
In this lies my biggest question...
While none of my business certainly and I extend EVERY courtesy and right to provacy to Ms. Logan - If MSM is reporting that Ms. Logan was sexually assaulted (as they are), what EXACTLY was the extent of that assault?
Was it verbal slurs or were they pulling a train in the middle of the friggin' square?
Was she being physically groped and "manhandled" or simply taunted (while neither is acceptable and certainly can cause lasting emotional trauma - I am NOT condoning either action or diminishing the importance of either individual act).
The infamous "WE" has been sensitized to the point of idiocy over what is and is not an "assault". In DoD EO classes we are taught that women are assaulted routinely by SEXUAL THOUGHTS of MEN and that it is the right of women to punish those men for such thoughts. Try as you might - do not hijack the thread on this statement...stay focused...
I do sincerely hope that Ms. Logan was not physically molested / assaulted / scarred in ANY way...but if all of this is over some glorified cat-calls the MEDIA should be held accountable (again - NOT taking away from the threat [real or perceived] Ms. Logan may have felt at the time) for yet more misinformation to glorify their story at the expense of Ms. Logan.
That being said - if it were physical, am I the ONLY one that would expect just a HINT of ANYTHING MORE from Pennsylvania Avenue? Track record to this point notwithstanding?
silentreader
02-16-2011, 19:24
and the result should not surprise any resident of Cairo, although I'm sure it dissapoints many.
Stu
I wager you're right about this. Egypt is well known for its harassment of women, and from what I had read it was a particular point of pride amongst the people that this had not occurred during the protests. Found an article that talks about it, seems like its well done (http://www.newser.com/article/d9le4ftg1/attack-on-cbs-correspondent-shines-spotlight-on-harassment-violence-against-women-in-egypt.html)...
For a moment, it seemed Egypt wasn't just throwing off its political shackles. Women long suffering from the scourge of sexual harassment reported Cairo's Tahrir Square, command central of the uprising, had become a safe zone free of the groping and leering common in their country.
Now the attack on a senior U.S. television correspondent during the final night of the 18-day revolt has shown that the threat of violence against women in Egypt remains very real.
CBS has said its chief foreign correspondent, Lara Logan, went through a "brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating" by a frenzied mob in the square during Friday's celebrations of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's ouster. The Associated Press does not name victims of sexual assault unless the victim agrees to be identified.
Logan was released from a U.S. hospital and was recovering Wednesday in her Washington-area home, as her story raised issues often left unaddressed in the Middle East.
An Egyptian security official said he was unaware of any investigation into the attack on Logan. He noted that police were pulled off the streets on Jan. 28, three days after the outbreak of the protests, and haven't returned, with the exception of traffic police.
The American network has said Logan, her team and their security "were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration." During the uprising, anti-government protesters in Tahrir Square had been largely peaceful, except when coming under attack by police or pro-Mubarak gangs trying to break up the large crowds. The pro-government forces also beat and harassed dozens of foreigners, including reporters and photographers.
Logan was ultimately saved by a group of Egyptian women and around 20 soldiers. After reconnecting with her crew, she returned to the United States on Saturday.
The night that Logan was assaulted, the nature of the crowd in Tahrir changed.
While only the most dedicated had turned up in the preceding 18 days _ overcoming fear of arrest and bound by the shared goal of bringing down Mubarak _ hundreds of thousands from all parts of Cairo flooded the downtown area to celebrate the president's downfall.
In some areas, men formed human chains, cordoning off groups of women and children from pushing hordes. But it wasn't enough protection, and women reported later that they were sexually harassed _ stared at, shouted at, and groped _ that night.
"All the men were very respectful during the revolution," said Nawla Darwiche, an Egyptian feminist. "Sexual harassment didn't occur during the revolt. It occurred during that night. I was personally harassed that night."
During the uprising, women say they briefly experienced a "new Egypt," with strict social customs casually cast aside _ at least among the protesters.
Young women in jeans and tight shirts smoked in public, standing next to bearded Islamists who didn't bat an eye.
Women who said they had never slept away from home before were spending nights in tents pitched in the center of the square, as protesters tried to maintain control of the strategic location. The women said at the time they felt perfectly safe, even bringing their children.
Egyptian women's rights campaigners now worry that the reprieve they experienced during the uprising was a fluke, and that their society will quickly revert to oppressive social mores that leave women vulnerable to sexual violence, with little recourse.
Women in Egypt _ and in many areas of the Arab world _ are still afraid to report sexual assault or harassment, fearing they and their families will be stigmatized, said Medine Ebeid of Egypt's New Woman Foundation.
Only rarely do women come forward. In a widely publicized 2008 case, a woman dragged her assailant to a police station, and succeeded in sending him to jail for three years.
The killing of women by male relatives for perceived violations of a strict moral code are often either covered up by the families or the assailants, if prosecuted, face light sentences.
Sexual harassment remains widespread in Egypt, and even women covered up by veils and long robes in strict Islamic dress say they are not immune.
A 2008 survey by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights found that 83 percent of Egyptian women and 98 percent of foreign women in Cairo said they had been harassed _ while 62 percent of men admitted to harassing.
Harassment is often the flip side of conservative mores. Men who believe women should stay out of the public sphere tend to assume that those seen in the streets are fair game. Widespread unemployment leaves young men bored, frustrated and unable to marry.
Police witnessing harassment have a history of not interfering or even joining in, going after female political activists in particular, Darwiche said. In 2005, plainclothes agents trying to break up a rally by female anti-government protests tore at their clothes and pulled their hair.
A proposed law banning sexual harassment and outlining criminal punishment was never put to a vote to parliament. It's unlikely to see any action during Egypt's ongoing political turmoil, with parliament dissolved and elections not expected for several more months.
Activist Rasha Hassan said she and others hope to harness the spirit that made Tahrir safe for a while.
"We believe that when people think about a big thing, all of us collect (gather) for a main goal, our good morals return," said Hassan, who helps run Harrasmap, a website that allows women to quickly report instances of harassment via text message or Twitter. Uploaded onto a digital map of Cairo, it shows hotspots and areas that might be dangerous for women to walk alone.
Asma Barlas, an expert on women in Islamic societies at Ithaca College, said change will likely be slow because traditional attitudes run deep.
"When societal images of women begin to change," she said, "maybe things will get better."
I don't think I appreciate your superior tone.
Last I heard, there were two genders. Guys and girls. Dudes and chicks. There's no need to get all hypersensitive.
What I said about me going for a walk in Compton is figurative, not literal. I said that to illustrate a point. "One of these things is not like the other..." I believe I suggested as much above when I said that the nail that sticks out gets hammered. The irony that, in this very thread, I might be the nail, is not lost on me.
I have read many of your posts. It seems to me that you are a reasonable and intelligent person. So why the acrimony and hair splitting?DJ--
BLUF, I take umbrage with the "she asked for it"/"savages will be savages" theme of your posts in this thread.
As for the hair splitting and 'superior tone', I say turn things around. Let's say there was a news story about a highly skilled artisan suffering some misfortune while plying his craft. Would you be pleased if people jumped to conclusions without checking their facts and said "Look at that [so and so]--he was stupid." Or would it be better if people understood that professionals take risks to make a living? If Danica Patrick crashes, it's not the car's fault.That's not what she says <<LINK (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=danica+patrick+blames)>>:rolleyes:
It's SOP and sport for some people don't ya know.
Although I'd wager it would never happen in person. ;)You would lose that bet.
Moreover, your remark clearly indicates that you think members of this BB do not have the maturity to discuss opposing points of view without losing their tempers and turning to violence.
Wow, just wow.
To say that I am saddened by some of the posts I have read here, is truly an understatement. As an officer and a woman.
Ms. Logan is a professional in a dangerous line of work. She CHOSE that profession, just as those of us in the military CHOSE a dangerous profession. My bet is for many of the same reasons, mainly that chosen profession being a calling.
When one of us is hurt or killed in the line of duty, it is very rare to see any comments on this site about how that person should have never been there in the first place. We honor their service because they are fighting for something we all believe in. Why should that be any different for Ms. Logan?
Being the professional she is, she went were she was sent by her bosses. Most of you don't agree with that choice. But where would we be without people like Ms. Logan?
Granted the MSM is not the pillar of society some of us would like. But one of the great things about this country is our press. We may not always liike the things some of them say, but we PROTECT their right to say whatever they want. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. But where would we be as a country without them? The press is ingrained in what we are as a country, and what we stand for.
Would we rather have had the reports coming out of the Middle East come solely from Middle Eastern media outlets because it was too dangerous for any western journalists to be there? Or maybe it should just be male reporters because we know none of them were hurt reporting on Egypt (Anderson Cooper anyone?) Someone has to take the risk to go into dangerous places, and report what is going on. You may not like that it was a woman who was sent, but it was.
Who of us matures in this world, by only staying where we are safe, or only doing things that are safe? If that were the case we would all be locked in a bedroom in our parents house, never to venture out into the world to find our calling. If we avoid risk, what can we ever hope to gain?
I guess we could get into further discussions about what are appropriate professions for women, and what are not, but I guess we can save that for another day. Ms. Logan did her job, and for that I am greatful. I am sorry this happened to her, but as I am sure she will learn, as I did, a sexual assault even as brutal as this one was, does not define who you are, unless you let it!
I will lay money down that she comes out a stronger woman, and a better reporter because of it.
cszakolczai
02-16-2011, 19:55
Religiously motivated? Why would anyone want to lunge at anything labeled Jew:confused:
Source: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/cbs_reporter_cairo_nightmare_pXiUVvhwIDdCrbD95ybD5 N
What if she was perceived to have been Muslim?
And what if her attackers were all Christian? Egypt doesnt just have one religion within the country. Muslims and Christians were protesting as one within the square so using those facts we can only assume that it was both groups who committed this atrocity.
In Lara Logan's defense can we remember that Katie Couric was also on the ground and while she was swarmed and pushed many times, she was able to complete her assignment without a problem. She as well is a white blonde haired woman.
Video of Couric...
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7310052n
DJ--
That's not what she says <<LINK (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=danica+patrick+blames)>>:rolleyes:
You're right! :D
IMO folks that are taking the attitude that she is "stupid" and put herself in that position are showing poor taste at best. This is a woman who had a dangerous job and is a victim of a crime. I blame none but the men who committed this act and those who watched it happen. Cowards all.
mojaveman
02-16-2011, 20:18
Egypt has not been kind to the members of 60 minutes. First Anderson Cooper and now Lara Logan.
She could probably have had a better security detail.
Glad that she's recovering well.
What happened to her security detail or did she even have one?
Kinda makes me wonder why people provide links to articles/docs or post them in these threads if nobody is going to review them before offering up an opinion.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
AngelsSix
02-16-2011, 20:48
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/item_eyjZaCHJvKzu3a1xlv6ECP
I don't know how many of you know or remember this. I have absolutely no respect for her, nor will she get my sympathy. She is neither intelligent nor professional in my book.
ZonieDiver
02-16-2011, 20:53
I will never ever be bitten by a shark, because I will never go into the ocean deeper than my knees.
Stay on the beach! :D A significant portion of the shark population is located in water of "knee depth" or less! Many have been bitten in these depths.
I once witnessed some people barely miss being bitten by a shark in the parking lot of a Burger King.
Risk is where you find it. Her decision is not one I'd make, but she is not the first journalist to take a risk to "get the story." I neither applaud nor condemn her. It is what it is.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/item_eyjZaCHJvKzu3a1xlv6ECP
I don't know how many of you know or remember this. I have absolutely no respect for her, nor will she get my sympathy. She is neither intelligent nor professional in my book.
One never knows what goes on in another's marriage. It's very easy to judge when you are on the outside looking in.
How the article you posted has any bearing on what transpired to Ms. Logan in Egypt is lost on me.
It's very easy to judge when you are on the outside looking in.Easier still when you're getting your information from news reports from The National Enquirer.
ZonieDiver
02-16-2011, 21:06
I don't think I appreciate your <snip> tone.
Wow! The last time I heard that phrase, it was followed by a few licks with a hairbrush, administered by my mom! :D
Eagle5US
02-16-2011, 21:11
Alright, alright-
let's focus here...
Who she bangs or gets banged by (willingly) while on "assignment" has no bearing whatsoever on her being the victim of SA by an angry mob of HN fucktards.
There is no way of knowing the circumstances of her "trysts"...for all we know contractor dude told her he was already single (or never married for that matter) BFD - simply no relevance or bearing on this situation AT ALL....
A "lack of professionalism" is not justification for being the victim of a serious and personal crime
so.... let's drop it shall we
Peregrino
02-16-2011, 21:18
I'm glad she's alive. I hope she recovers and goes on to lead a relatively normal life. Personally, I think she was incredibly stupid. I won't say she deserved it because I don't believe anyone deserves "sexual assault". I will say she's incredibly lucky to be alive. She was almost a top three Darwin Award winner. I hope somebody learns some lessons about prudence and risk management. I doubt it will be her though.
The men who assaulted her (regardless of the extent of that assault) are scumbags, and my sympathy goes out to her.
That being said, no western mother, sister, daughter, or female friend of mine would have been in that crowd on that night. Egypt is known for sexual assault. My first visit over there a group of guys managed to cut a female friend of mine out of our group getting off the subway. One of them ended up with a bruise on the base of his skull from my elbow and all three of them ended up on their backs on the platform thanks to another friend present. Some western women who live in Cairo have taken to carrying hatpins, which effectively keep the dogs at bay.
Now, as far as how we can expect this to be viewed by the Egyptian religious leadership, this speech by the Egyptian born Mufti of Australia Sheik Taj el-Din al-Hilali says it all.
---
Excerpts of al-Hilali's speech
This is the edited transcript of Sheik Taj el-Din al-Hilali's controversial speech. It was translated from Arabic by Dalia Mattar, from Australian broadcaster SBS, and originally printed by The Australian newspaper.
Those atheists, people of the book [Christians and Jews], where will they end up? In Surfers Paradise? On the Gold Coast?
Where will they end up? In hell. And not part-time. For eternity. They are the worst in God's creation.
Who commits the crimes of theft? The man or the woman? The man.
'Women's responsibility'
That's why the man was mentioned before the woman when it comes to theft because his responsibility is providing.
But when it comes to adultery, it's 90% the women's responsibility. Why? Because a woman possesses the weapon of seduction.
It is she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It's she who shortens, raises and lowers.
Then it's a look, then a smile, then a conversation, a greeting, then a conversation, then a date, then a meeting, then a crime, then Long Bay jail. [laughs].
Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years.
But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, scholar al-Rafihi says: 'If I came across a rape crime - kidnap and violation of honour - I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.'
'Uncovered meat'
Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn't have snatched it.
If you take a kilo of meat, and you don't put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you're crazy. Isn't this true?
If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.
If the meat was covered, the cats wouldn't roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won't get it.
If the meat was in the fridge and it [the cat] smelled it, it can bang its head as much as it wants, but it's no use.
'Satan's weapons'
If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she's wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don't happen.
That's why he said she owns the weapon of seduction.
Satan sees women as half his soldiers: "You're my messenger to achieve my needs."
Satan tells women: "You're my weapon to bring down any stubborn man. There are men that I fail with. But you're the best of my weapons."
The woman was behind Satan playing a role when she disobeyed God and went out all dolled up and unveiled and made of herself palatable food that rakes and perverts would race for. She was the reason behind this sin taking place.
This transcript is courtesy of The Australian newspaper
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/6089008.stm
Published: 2006/10/27 08:15:11 GMT
© BBC 2011
---
For more background click here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6086374.stm).
-out
Now, as far as how we can expect this to be viewed by the Egyptian religious leadership, this speech by the Egyptian born Mufti of Australia Sheik Taj el-Din al-Hilali says it all.
I wonder how one would embroider a scarlet letter 'A' in Arabic.
Richard :munchin
IMHO putting oneself in harm's way whether in the military or other professions should not be condemned. Perhaps I scanned the posts too quickly, but I have missed any comment that says the the reporter herself is not whining about the attack. She knew the risks and seems to have considered the risks acceptable. That being the case, I admire her and wish her a speedy recovery.
As for her personal life, gossip about an attractive woman surrounded by men isn't new. In the Enquirer, it is page 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. Big foot is also occasionally sighted.
But there is a point in regard to the press in hot zones. Looking for missing reporters in Afghanistan (not Egypt, I know) tends to lose soldiers.
So while I concur with AFCHIC, I understand the frustration.
cszakolczai
02-16-2011, 23:32
I wonder how one would embroider a scarlet letter 'A' in Arabic.
Richard :munchin
Oddly enough the lower case, of the first letter, in her first and last name.
DJ Urbanovsky
02-17-2011, 01:09
Hmmm... That's interesting. I don't seem to recall broaching the savages angle in this thread. Perhaps you can point out where I've done that, other than in reference to the rapists, whom I suggested should suffer one of the most cruel and unusual punishments mankind has devised? Furthermore, I never said she asked for it. I said she made a stupid decision. There's an important distinction there. I believe I've been very clear about that.
Insofar as my taking the side of a skilled artisan... This may come as a surprise to you, but there are plenty of people in my industry, both skilled and not, who are just as screwed up as anybody else. Somebody being good at what they do has zero impact upon whether or not they're fucked up like a soup sandwich. And just because somebody is a skilled artisan doesn't necessarily make them my bro. I'm a little more discerning than that about who I associate with. I don't know what you do for a living, but if someone in your industry did something stupid, would you automatically come running to their defense?
Seems to me the only fact I didn't check regarding this situation is that Logan was an American. Damn. You got me on that one.
Furthermore, I can assure you, dr. mabuse would not lose that bet. And what's violence got to do with this discussion? That statement is about manning up and dealing with things like an adult, not violence. Maybe the fact that you extrapolated violence from that statement says something about you?
DJ--
BLUF, I take umbrage with the "she asked for it"/"savages will be savages" theme of your posts in this thread.
As for the hair splitting and 'superior tone', I say turn things around. Let's say there was a news story about a highly skilled artisan suffering some misfortune while plying his craft. Would you be pleased if people jumped to conclusions without checking their facts and said "Look at that [so and so]--he was stupid." Or would it be better if people understood that professionals take risks to make a living? That's not what she says <<LINK (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=danica+patrick+blames)>>:rolleyes:
You would lose that bet.
Moreover, your remark clearly indicates that you think members of this BB do not have the maturity to discuss opposing points of view without losing their tempers and turning to violence.
That's me trying my best to be diplomatic. Maybe I didn't do such a good job there...
Hairbrush? You lucked out... My mom used a wooden spoon. ;)
Wow! The last time I heard that phrase, it was followed by a few licks with a hairbrush, administered by my mom! :D
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/item_eyjZaCHJvKzu3a1xlv6ECP
I don't know how many of you know or remember this. I have absolutely no respect for her, nor will she get my sympathy. She is neither intelligent nor professional in my book.
Know or Remember this? You're kidding right?
I suspect most here never heard of it, or give two $hits about what the NY Post or any rag prints regarding a private citizens personal life. Most here have their own lives to concern themselves with.
NEWS FLASH!!!....
There are two, three, and perhaps more sides to every story. Don't sell yourself on the first one that comes along.
Or better yet, try not to rationalize an event like this as OK, because you "have no sympathy" based on some rag's interpretation of a soap oprah. She probably doesn't want YOUR sympathy. I'd ask you to read Defend's post #48 and see if you're statement is more in line with al-Hilali's speech when he says ...
"if I came across a rape crime - kidnap and violation of honour - I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.'
Thank GOD that most in OUR society dont think like this. Is this your position?
This young lady did a dumb thing and maybe she's done many dumb things in her life. Regardless, she wouldn't be the first ignorant victim to have thought, "it couldn't happen to me". She's lucky to be alive and she should be supported as the victim she is. Hopefully, others will learn from her ignorance.
There is a legal term for your position, it's called System Victim Focus. Basically, it's when defenants and thier lawyers try to rationalize any reason to blame the victim. It's very common in rape cases.
Why would you do this?
Incredible.....jd
The antihero
02-17-2011, 01:47
Religiously motivated? Why would anyone want to lunge at anything labeled Jew:confused:
Source: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/cbs_reporter_cairo_nightmare_pXiUVvhwIDdCrbD95ybD5 N
What if she was perceived to have been Muslim?
ETA
An Egyptian attorney encourages the rape of Jewish Women:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAbYodZ7Fp4
From the NYP article:
And the day before, Logan had told Esquire.com that Egyptian soldiers hassling her and her crew had accused them of "being Israeli spies."
The horrific incident came a week after the 39-year-old reporter was temporarily detained by Egyptian police amid tensions over foreign coverage of the country's growing revolution.
As part of the anti-media backlash, CNN's Anderson Cooper had also been roughed up, and ABC correspondent Brian Hartman had been threatened with beheading.
"[Logan] was not in the country for long -- she'd been thrown out, if you remember -- and had just gone back in," one source said.
It kinda makes you wonder though. Was this a casual assault or the mob was somehow steered?
It kinda makes you wonder though. Was this a casual assault or the mob was somehow steered?
I'm of the opinion the crowd was steered...
Considering Mrs Logan is not Jewish, only reinforces the deep seeded Jew-hatred among Muslim Egyptians. Such virulent Muslim Jew-hatred is inspired by the core of Islam’s foundational texts, and demonstrates how little it takes for this hatred to show its face.
"We were all blindfolded," Logan shuffles a bag into an overhead bin, shuts it. "They blindfolded me, but they said if I didn't take it off they wouldn't tie my hands. They kept us in stress positions — they wouldn't let me put my head down. It was all through the night. We were pretty exhausted." And then what? They let Logan go. She's an American journalist, not an enemy of the state.
"We were accused of being Israeli spies. We were accused of being agents. We were accused of everything."
Source: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/lara-logan-egypt-5219471
Ms. Logan's story and that of Raymond Davis are concurrent headlines with similarities. Both were folks who were either sent or put themselves in hostile environments in which they greatly stood out. We don't know who or what Mr. Davis is, or the background of his assailants. We do know net net Mr. Davis had the SA and the skill to survive a deadly confrontation. While I have empathy for Ms. Logan, the ramifications of the Davis incident have significantly greater potential for damage to US interests. There are differences, Davis may have been carrying out a mission, and as a culture we tend to be more protective of women than men, yet the range of responses on his thread in contrast are generally of support, and a few questions about his professionalism. There are no stipulations the host culture are savages in relation to Western ones, and folks seem to be withholding judgement of his actions until we know more.
Respectfully, as far as relative savages go, a riot, a mob, and a revolution are all savage dangerous environments whether in Rwanda, Paris, or Beverly Hills. I abhor the treatment of women in the Third World, but to be fair if we are assigning relative savagery on the basis of bloodshed, Americans killed, or barbarous acts, objectively the aforementioned German Caucasians are off to a considerable head start the past century.
Jewish folks, Poles and Eastern Europeans, not to mention the families of US GI's murdered at Malmedy among numerous others, could hardly be blamed for putting the Germans front and center on the savages list. Yet Germany has been an ally of ours, and a peaceful democracy for over a half century, and I would think few rational Americans think of the Germans this way now.
I think everyone wishes the best for both Ms. Logan and Mr. Davis, yet clearly the use of the term "savages" tend to bring out emotion in people. History would seem to indicate savage acts are simply savage acts even when committed by folks who share a similar culture, religion, or phenotypes.
Two things:
1) She obviously made judgment error in being there
2) Damn sad that assault like his should happen to anyone, regardless of circumstance.
She is lucky to be alive but i'm pretty certain she will never be the same person she was.
Speedy recovery
H
Bahrain Protests: At Least 2 Dead in Crackdown; ABC's Miguel Marquez Roughed Up
A good wrap up of some of what happened to "our" reporters.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/bahrain-protests-abc-news-correspondent-miguel-marquez-beaten/story?id=12936124
The marquez clip link is below the main story - gotta' watch the short commercials.
A riot is a riot - all bets are off on what it, groups or individuals will do.
Hairbrush? You lucked out... My mom used a wooden spoon. ;)
DJ, my mom used a wooden spoon, too ! :D
DJ, my mom used a wooden spoon, too ! :D
Mine took away my tommyhawk for 3 days.
Roguish Lawyer
02-17-2011, 10:53
Easier still when you're getting your information from news reports from The National Enquirer.
You need to dial it back or you'll be on vacation from this board. One warning only.
cszakolczai
02-17-2011, 10:53
I'm of the opinion the crowd was steered...
Considering Mrs Logan is not Jewish, only reinforces the deep seeded Jew-hatred among Muslim Egyptians. Such virulent Muslim Jew-hatred is inspired by the core of Islam’s foundational texts, and demonstrates how little it takes for this hatred to show its face.
Source: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/lara-logan-egypt-5219471
It is ALL Egpytians, it is not just Muslim Egpytians.
We also seem to forget they were protesting together, therefore actions like this probably were committed by both sides. After all the Egyptian Muslim's were acting as "human shields" for the Coptic Egyptians so why are we assuming this was a Muslim led action?
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/egyptian-muslims-serve-as-human-shields-during-coptic-christmas-services/
Quote from the link to summarize it...
“We either live together, or we die together,” was the sloganeering genius of Mohamed El-Sawy, a Muslim arts tycoon whose cultural centre distributed flyers at churches in Cairo Thursday night, and who has been credited with first floating the “human shield” idea.
CBS complicit in news coverup
Dateline — Egypt:
“[60 Minutes] correspondent Lara Logan was repeatedly sexually assaulted by thugs yelling, ‘Jew! Jew!’ as she covered the chaotic fall of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Cairo’s main square Friday.”
Powerful reporting on an important story. Two problems: It didn’t run until yesterday, and CBS didn’t run it. The quote is from the New York Post. And it was The Wall Street Journal that reported “the separation and assault lasted roughly 20 to 30 minutes.”
Read more here (http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1317384)
Having 200 “good guys” gang assault a female reporter while screaming “Jew! Jew!” doesn’t fit the narrative. Is that why CBS sat on the story?
oy vey...
and the hits keep coming....:munchin
greenberetTFS
02-17-2011, 11:55
Wow! The last time I heard that phrase, it was followed by a few licks with a hairbrush, administered by my mom! :D
Now that's funny............ :) We needed it from the way this thread is going.........;)
Big Teddy :munchin
GratefulCitizen
02-17-2011, 13:02
"Do this, don't do that...wear this, don't wear that" Protection and exploitation sound quite a lot alike sometimes -- and a gilded cage is still a cage.
A side point, but not an unimportant one, is that if women have to do and say and dress a certain way in order to be safe --it isn't very complimentary towards men.
And quite frankly with the amount of domestic violence in this country alone, if you want a woman to truly be safe forget about Egypt, tell her not to go home.
Someone either wants protection from another or they do not, be it a protective detail or a spouse.
If you want protection from someone else, but aren't willing to take their advice as to your own actions, then it's the same thing as saying "let's you and him have a fight" to your protector(s).
Maybe the protectors are trying to communicate the limits of their capabilities when offering advice.
Choices have consequences, and those consequences aren't always just or fair.
Doesn't mean that the consequences can't be predicted.
Peregrino
02-17-2011, 14:08
Choices have consequences, and those consequences aren't always just or fair.
Doesn't mean that the consequences can't be predicted.
Very succinctly stated.
"if I came across a rape crime - kidnap and violation of honour - I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.'
Thank GOD that most in OUR society dont think like this. Is this your position?
Please tell me I misread your question. Are you asking if I would order the woman be arrested and jailed for life? If so, the answer is an emphatic "Hell No". Notice that was a quote from a lecture, one which I vehemently disagree with.
And the day before, Logan had told Esquire.com that Egyptian soldiers hassling her and her crew had accused them of "being Israeli spies."
It's not fun being accused of being a Jewish spy in the Arab world. I suspect I'm not the only one on the forum who can attest to that first hand.
A side point, but not an unimportant one, is that if women have to do and say and dress a certain way in order to be safe --it isn't very complimentary towards men.
I don't appreciate you make a blatant statement about males equating the gender with gang-rapists. I grew up knowing there were good guys and bad guys, and being able to differentiate between the two.
Hairbrush? You lucked out... My mom used a wooden spoon.
My mom used a wooden spoon, and dad used a picket off of the fence to encourage me to be a good guy. I'm pretty sure it worked. Ask any of the girls that I've stood up for without them asking - last I checked there was a unanimous decision on that one.
If it is ever necessary, I will forcibly protect the women in my life that I care about, relatives or not. Like I said, no western female friend of mine would have been in that crowd that night. If a female wants to take offense to that, then that's their problem. I also won't let my male friends drive/ride drunk. Get over it.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/item_eyjZaCHJvKzu3a1xlv6ECP
I don't know how many of you know or remember this. I have absolutely no respect for her, nor will she get my sympathy. She is neither intelligent nor professional in my book.
WTF do's this have to do with anything we are discussing.
I listened to this on NPR while driving home from the library today and found it interesting and of relevance to this discussion.
This is also an interesting web-site which indicates both the extent of the issue and that people are working to change it:
http://harassmap.org/
Richard :munchin
Women Hope Harassment Will End In New Egypt
Lourdes Garcia-Navarro, NPR, 17 Feb 2011
The violent sexual assault on CBS correspondent of Lara Logan in Cairo last week has highlighted a huge problem in Egypt.
According to one recent report by a women's rights group, some 80 percent of Egyptian women and 90 percent of foreign women visiting the country have been sexually harassed. And the former government did little to stem the problem.
But Egyptian women hope the revolution will change all that.
If you type in "harassment Egypt" on YouTube, dozens of videos showing women being mauled will pop up. In one particular, incident a mob of men rips the clothes off of a woman. It's horrific and terrifying. In another nasty incident in 2006 during the Muslim feast of Eid, gangs of men rampaged through downtown Cairo, assaulting any woman who came near them, whether veiled or not.
While mob violence like this is not the norm, sexual harassment in Cairo is an everyday occurrence — and most women have their own personal stories to tell.
Hania Shuleimy was walking home one night after teaching a late class. She says "someone just grabbed me....he grabbed my breasts and I fought my way out and I swore madly and screamed at him and he ran away. But no one did anything....I cried and cried and cried all the way home."
Shuleimy is a professor of gender studies at the American University in Cairo. She says harassment is now endemic in Cairo.
"I also find that many veiled women get harassed and many little girls get harassed and people who are not particularly hot get harassed. I think it has more to do with denigrating femininity in whatever guise," she says.
Mohammed Saffi is the spokesman for harassmap.org, which is an initiative that was kicked off in Egypt in 2010. The idea behind the project, says Saffi, is to allow women to report where and how they've been harassed so that other women can avoid those areas. The website has a map with red circles around the neighborhoods where women are most at risk.
"We've defined them into different sort of levels of harassment, everything from catcalling to actual physical abuse," he says.
Saffi says harassment of women is a huge problem in Egypt. And the reason is twofold.
"The Arab world is a male dominated society," he says."And you can imagine if you mix a male dominated society with a oppressive way of life for the past 30 years, that's not gonna garner good results in the field of women's rights.
Activists say attacks on women have been encouraged by the culture of impunity that has existed for many years here. The regime of former President Hosni Mubarak did little to punish perpetrators — and the victims, because of the stigma, often stayed silent.
Women are hoping that will now change. A unique aspect of the revolution was that women participated in huge numbers. They slept in Tahrir Square and marched alongside their male counterparts. They say harassment was rare during that period.
"The appearance of women, unvieled women, veiled women, all together — Christians, Muslims, everyone I think it gave a sense of this is a popular movement and these are the ordinary citizens," says Daadi Khaleefa, a human rights activist. It was extremely inspiring not only for women, but empowering for the whole society.
Khaleefa says Egyptian women are trying to preserve that sense of respect that briefly flowered during the recent weeks.
"I think this whole sense of awakening will spread in all fields and, hopefully, in gender rights as well."
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/17/133845499/women-hope-harassment-will-end-in-new-egypt
mojaveman
02-17-2011, 16:42
I listened to this on NPR while driving home from the library today and found it interesting and of relevance to this discussion.
This is an interesting web-site:
http://harassmap.org/
Richard :munchin
Women Hope Harassment Will End In New Egypt
Lourdes Garcia-Navarro, NPR, 17 Feb 2011
The violent sexual assault on CBS correspondent of Lara Logan in Cairo last week has highlighted a huge problem in Egypt.
According to one recent report by a women's rights group, some 80 percent of Egyptian women and 90 percent of foreign women visiting the country have been sexually harassed. And the former government did little to stem the problem.
But Egyptian women hope the revolution will change all that.
If you type in "harassment Egypt" on YouTube, dozens of videos showing women being mauled will pop up. In one particular, incident a mob of men rips the clothes off of a woman. It's horrific and terrifying. In another nasty incident in 2006 during the Muslim feast of Eid, gangs of men rampaged through downtown Cairo, assaulting any woman who came near them, whether veiled or not.
While mob violence like this is not the norm, sexual harassment in Cairo is an everyday occurrence — and most women have their own personal stories to tell.
Hania Shuleimy was walking home one night after teaching a late class. She says "someone just grabbed me....he grabbed my breasts and I fought my way out and I swore madly and screamed at him and he ran away. But no one did anything....I cried and cried and cried all the way home."
Shuleimy is a professor of gender studies at the American University in Cairo. She says harassment is now endemic in Cairo.
"I also find that many veiled women get harassed and many little girls get harassed and people who are not particularly hot get harassed. I think it has more to do with denigrating femininity in whatever guise," she says.
Mohammed Saffi is the spokesman for harassmap.org, which is an initiative that was kicked off in Egypt in 2010. The idea behind the project, says Saffi, is to allow women to report where and how they've been harassed so that other women can avoid those areas. The website has a map with red circles around the neighborhoods where women are most at risk.
"We've defined them into different sort of levels of harassment, everything from catcalling to actual physical abuse," he says.
Saffi says harassment of women is a huge problem in Egypt. And the reason is twofold.
"The Arab world is a male dominated society," he says."And you can imagine if you mix a male dominated society with a oppressive way of life for the past 30 years, that's not gonna garner good results in the field of women's rights.
Activists say attacks on women have been encouraged by the culture of impunity that has existed for many years here. The regime of former President Hosni Mubarak did little to punish perpetrators — and the victims, because of the stigma, often stayed silent.
Women are hoping that will now change. A unique aspect of the revolution was that women participated in huge numbers. They slept in Tahrir Square and marched alongside their male counterparts. They say harassment was rare during that period.
"The appearance of women, unvieled women, veiled women, all together — Christians, Muslims, everyone I think it gave a sense of this is a popular movement and these are the ordinary citizens," says Daadi Khaleefa, a human rights activist. It was extremely inspiring not only for women, but empowering for the whole society.
Khaleefa says Egyptian women are trying to preserve that sense of respect that briefly flowered during the recent weeks.
"I think this whole sense of awakening will spread in all fields and, hopefully, in gender rights as well."
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/17/133845499/women-hope-harassment-will-end-in-new-egypt
Very true.
While on Operation Bright Star during the summer of '85 we stayed in hotels in both Alexandria and Cairo. In both locations female service members complained of being leered at and groped by male staff members of the hotels. Some of us even had to stand guard outside of the womens restrooms while the females used them.
While mob violence like this is not the norm, sexual harassment in Cairo is an everyday occurrence — and most women have their own personal stories to tell.
Not surprising in a country where over 80 percent of the women suffer female circumcision, and where the vast majority want Islamic Sharia - Muhammad himself indulged in such activities……(Surat Al-Ahzab 33:50)
I’m curious how Norwegian rape statistics compare to those of Egypt… :munchin
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1754
Sucks doesn't it?
So does the implication that women are responsible for staying out of trouble by dressing and acting in certain ways, or not going certain places--instead of laying the fault for bad behavior on the perpetrators of said behavior.
In General, Woman mean one thing to Men. Tits and Ass. Sorry but that is the truth. I have never met a Woman who I didn't look at her Boobs first.
Sucks doesn't it?
So does the implication that women are responsible for staying out of trouble by dressing and acting in certain ways, or not going certain places--instead of laying the fault for bad behavior on the perpetrators of said behavior.
I don't think anybody here is blaming victims for being raped, and I know for sure I'm not. Are you both complaining about protective men and generalizing the gender as rapists? Maybe I've just misunderstood your posts.
Avoiding crimes of all types is common sense. If you make a bad decision and become victim to a crime, it doesn't mean you are responsible for the crime. That applies to muggings, murders, rapes, robberies, identity theft, fraud, so on and so forth.
Noticing a Woman's beauty does not automatically lead to sexual assault. I've noticed plenty of beautiful women and have never assaulted any of them. But thanks for using your broad brush on us.
-out
In General, Woman mean one thing to Men. Tits and Ass. Sorry but that is the truth. I have never met a Woman who I didn't look at her Boobs first.
Honesty is the best policy, IMHO.:munchin
Holly
Roguish Lawyer
02-17-2011, 19:34
We need to get back on topic please.
We need to get back on topic please.
Were talking T&A here...lol
Please tell me I misread your question. Are you asking if I would order the woman be arrested and jailed for life? If so, the answer is an emphatic "Hell No". Notice that was a quote from a lecture, one which I vehemently disagree with.
No, that post is directed towards AngelsSix who stated the folowing:
I have absolutely no respect for her, nor will she get my sympathy. She is neither intelligent nor professional in my book.
I wanted him to read your post and then ask himself if he would agree with that statement from al-Hilali's speech.
I'm a bit concerned he's guilty of perhaps inadvertently blaming the victim or rationalizing a gang rape based upon some paper's story about her. To state that he has "absolutely no respect for her, nor will she get my sympathy", almost sounds as if she deserved what she got because of allegations in a newspaper.
Its irrelevant and inappropriate....jd
Peregrino
02-17-2011, 20:33
I've had it with the PC BS. Victim hell - she did everything wrong that she possibly could have. The first lesson any intelligent person learns is avoidance. This is as blatant a case as has ever existed of the victim sharing a considerable measure of responsibility for the assault. She is an experienced world traveler with a high degree of cultural awareness. She knew the risks and chose to ignore them. She deliberately put herself in harm's way. She was thrown out of country and chose to return "for the story". She chose to disregard warnings, failed to employ basic personal security measures, went into the thick of an emotionally charged mob, and paid a price for it. A little situational awareness, some common sense, simply avoiding the situation in the first place, and she would have been relatively safe. It's time to acknowlege that bad things happen to people who do stupid things. And stupid people need to accept some responsibility when their stupidity gets them in trouble. It's an aspect of Darwin.
cszakolczai
02-18-2011, 01:37
Interesting poll found online...
18.65 percent of the respondents were women while the majority, 81 percent, were men.
99 percent of respondents are well aware of the existence and prevalence of sexual harassment.
70 percent know that sexual harassment can take place anywhere (schools, street, home and at work).
From this site:
http://egypt.unfpa.org/english/Staticpage/c94040b0-542a-4a2d-a549-da8756195c6e/Sexual_Harassment.aspx
Another quote from an interesting article:
"In a frequently referenced survey in 2008, nearly two-thirds of Egyptian men admitted to sexually harassing women – and half blamed the women themselves. Eight in 10 Egyptian women say they’ve suffered such harassment, with half saying it occurs daily – yet less than 3 percent have reported abuse to the police.
And according to more recent, and even more astonishing, data from The Population Council, an international nongovernmental organization, nearly 80 percent of Egyptian boys and men ages 15-29 agreed that a woman who is harassed deserves it if she had dressed provocatively. Perhaps even more disturbing, 73 percent of similar-aged females in the survey also claimed that immodestly dressed women deserve any abuse they endure."
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/0818/Sexual-harassment-in-Egypt-Why-men-blame-women
I didnt read all the posts. IMHO She was stupid and irresponsable. Typical media person (male or female) think they are immune from harm even in the most dangerious enviorment. Saying all that she did not deserve to be raped.
Reading the posts and linked articles would have told you she was sexually assaulted while surrounded by a demonstrating mob and not raped.
Richard :munchin
WholeManin2010
02-18-2011, 10:13
Just the opposite, in fact, but in my own warped way.
It's just plain stupid to suggest that all men are savages, unable to control their behavior.
So, therefore, it's just plain stupid to suggest that a woman controls men's behavior by how she acts or dresses.
And I disagree that nobody is blaming the victim, unless I'm really not reading plain English correctly, quite a few people on this board are.
We are mixing concepts ---responsibility and fault are two different things. LL bears the responsibility for the choices she made that put her in a bad place at a bad time.
The fault of the assault is squarely on the shoulders of the men who did it.
It doesn't matter how pretty she is, how she was dressed, etc. The fault for the behavior is still on the guys who did it.
Even a hooker has the right to say no.
The way a woman dresses or acts doesn't control a man's behavior, and ideally a lady should be able to conduct herself as she sees fit.
But if you wander into a lion's den reeking of deer's blood, don't be surprised if he tears you to pieces.
Seems like most here are blaming the stupidity of her actions, and not Logan personally. No one deserves such treatment, regardless of if their own actions set them up for it.
Some of us have spent alot time in the AO; more time then I care too remember however....
DO NOT! Assume, the "rights" women enjoy here in the USA are tolerated, over there.:cool:
Stay safe.
Perhaps stupidity is a subjective concept, then.
I wouldn't have done what Logan did, but then again, I wouldn't jump out of an airplane or go into combat (even if I could) or many other highly risky behaviors.
Which is not the same as saying I think those things are stupid. I, personally, just wouldn't take the risk.
Logan apparently wanted, not just a good story, but a great story. So she put herself in a very dangerous position.
QPs on this board didn't want to just be soldiers, they wanted to be elite soldiers. As a result, they are often in highly dangerous situations.
Honestly, I don't see the difference. Again it wouldn't be my choice, but it doesn't make it stupid.
People really need to stop comparing what this woman did to a soldier going into combat. We train, plan, rehearse for our operations which we conduct with weapons, body armor, personal protection equipment, while pulling security, maintaining situational awareness and making the best decisions we can that we know have life-or-death consequences - including the decision to not blindly keep marching forward in the face of overwelming odds. We place ourselves in dangerous situations because we have to, yet we operate with the purpose of mitigating the risk to our force and to our mission the best we can.... do you see the difference now?
Not comparing what she does for a living to what a soldier does for a living -- apples and oranges.
I was comparing her choices to those choices of a person who wants to go the extra mile and be the best -- in whatever field.
And her choices were stupid!
WholeManin2010
02-18-2011, 10:53
Perhaps stupidity is a subjective concept, then.
I wouldn't have done what Logan did, but then again, I wouldn't jump out of an airplane or go into combat (even if I could) or many other highly risky behaviors.
Which is not the same as saying I think those things are stupid. I, personally, just wouldn't take the risk.
Logan apparently wanted, not just a good story, but a great story. So she put herself in a very dangerous position.
QPs on this board didn't want to just be soldiers, they wanted to be elite soldiers. As a result, they are often in highly dangerous situations.
Honestly, I don't see the difference. Again it wouldn't be my choice, but it doesn't make it stupid.
Huge difference between going to war armed to the teeth, with unparalleled training, versus wandering into a angry, rioting crowd, vastly outnumbered, with no means of defense whatsoever, in a country with a harsh reputation for blatant sexual assault.
And for what it's worth, I'd like to think that the sacrifices undertaken by servicemembers are well worth the risk - perhaps even moreso than an Emmy or a bigger salary.
IMO, and it’s just that, she did what she did for whatever reason and is now left to deal with the consequences of an action that resulted from those decisions. At the end of the day, there are many women throughout the world that are sexually molested in one way or the other and are simply left to have to deal with it. Regardless of whether or not she wanted to go place herself there in order to obtain the best story or if she was told to be there, she is now left to deal with the circumstances that have been dealt her. I think that if she wasn’t who she is, this thread possibly wouldn’t even be here. In the end, when all is said and done, she will still be left with the consequences of that day, regardless of her reasons.
WholeManin2010
02-18-2011, 10:57
People really need to stop comparing what this woman did to a soldier going into combat. We train, plan, rehearse for our operations which we conduct with weapons, body armor, personal protection equipment, while pulling security, maintaining situational awareness and making the best decisions we can that we know have life-or-death consequences - including the decision to not blindly keep marching forward in the face of overwelming odds. We place ourselves in dangerous situations because we have to, yet we operate with the purpose of mitigating the risk to our force and to our mission the best we can.... do you see the difference now?
LOL, left my computer for a sec before submitting my reply - we seem to have said almost the same thing.
LOL, left my computer for a sec before submitting my reply - we seem to have said almost the same thing.
Yep, there's always got to be abort criteria and a "go-to-hell" plan - her crew had neither. Not saying she's at fault, of course not, but she didn't stack the deck in her favor.
ETA: or maybe they had a plan and it just wasn't executed, overwelmed by the circumstances... I don't know, I wasn't there.
Not comparing what she does for a living to what a soldier does for a living -- apples and oranges.
I was comparing her choices to those choices of a person who wants to go the extra mile and be the best -- in whatever field.
As a female, former soldier, and former sex crimes investigator, I am begging you..please.just.stop. You completely missed head's point.
greenberetTFS
02-18-2011, 11:49
Not comparing what she does for a living to what a soldier does for a living -- apples and oranges.
I was comparing her choices to those choices of a person who wants to go the extra mile and be the best -- in whatever field.
I'm sorry guys but I'm with NG550 on this,her points are well taken...... :) I believe to some degree we are missing them........:) I'm with you girl on this one..........;)
Big Teddy :munchin
Prayers out to her, no matter.
Prayers out to her, no matter.
There's the BLUF.
DJ Urbanovsky
02-18-2011, 15:24
These two links regarding her Esquire interview are pretty interesting, I think.
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/lara-logan-egypt-assault-5241788
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/lara-logan-egypt-5219471
Perhaps you can point out where I've done that[.]Please check your PMs.
Sexually assaulted is a nice word for raped. It entails several acts including sodomy, oral copulation, penetration with a foreign object and the act of the penis entering the vagina that most people consider rape as well as a few other ways. Sexual assault/rape comes in many forms and it can occure between two people of the same sex as wsell as a female commiting it on a male not just male to female.
Yes, 'sexually assaulted' can mean many things and, IMO, is not a nice word for anything, but - again - if you had read the linked articles...
"The Wall Street Journal reports that she was not raped, but that she was assaulted between 20 and 30 minutes."
...you might have thought better of posting...
"Saying all that she did not deserve to be raped."
...and said something less presumptive like...
'Saying all that she did not deserve to be assaulted.'
Richard :munchin
I've had it with the PC BS. Victim hell - she did everything wrong that she possibly could have. The first lesson any intelligent person learns is avoidance. This is as blatant a case as has ever existed of the victim sharing a considerable measure of responsibility for the assault. She is an experienced world traveler with a high degree of cultural awareness. She knew the risks and chose to ignore them. She deliberately put herself in harm's way. She was thrown out of country and chose to return "for the story". She chose to disregard warnings, failed to employ basic personal security measures, went into the thick of an emotionally charged mob, and paid a price for it. A little situational awareness, some common sense, simply avoiding the situation in the first place, and she would have been relatively safe. It's time to acknowlege that bad things happen to people who do stupid things. And stupid people need to accept some responsibility when their stupidity gets them in trouble. It's an aspect of Darwin.
Steel on target.
And her choices were stupid!
Your opinon.
N550G after reading Peregrino's post which contains some excellent information and background how in the world can you believe her choices were not stupid, or at the very least uninformed?
She put herself into an increasingly violent and escalating situation AFTER other reporters had already been assaulted. What the hell more does a person need to understand the odds are against you?
Yeah, and just because I think her choices were STUPID doesn't mean I think she deserved to be assaulted...just to be clear. Inevitable? Yes.
A question to put into the mix as we each reach our own conclusions about Ms. Logan and her choices.
As CBS's chief foreign correspondent, as an inheritor of Edward Murrow's legacy <<LINK (http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0425.html)>>, as a woman in a male-dominated profession, and as a broadcast news journalist fighting for her profession's relevance in the age of the blogosphere, what realistic choices did she have but to go out and to get the story?
DJ Urbanovsky
02-18-2011, 17:51
Don't bother.
Please check your PMs.
GratefulCitizen
02-18-2011, 21:21
WHEW!!!
Thanks Big Teddy, I really thought I was on my own little island there!
Teddy's lead prompted me to try and view this from a different perspective.
Trying to see things from your perspective, N550G, so bear with me.
Might not get it right, as I've not walked a mile in women's shoes. (my size 13s won't fit...)
There is the cold-hearted logical approach of cause and effect through which many view the issue.
This probably is a natural reaction for many when assessing a threatening situation, before or after the fact.
There is also the broader view of how the world should be, and if nobody will step forward to test boundaries, the world won't change.
While men are commended for their risk-taking, women are chastised for similar behavior.
Some societies hold women in higher regard, in part due to the efforts of brave women in the past.
These societies are usually much more civilized than those where women are oppressed.
Rather than getting into a chicken vs. egg argument, this could be seen as a virtuous cycle.
So, concerning Lara Logan we probably shouldn't be criticizing her motives.
She dared and strived, but the judgement and execution were perhaps lacking with this incident.
I pray that her wounds, physical and emotional, will be healed.
cszakolczai
02-19-2011, 01:36
A question to put into the mix as we each reach our own conclusions about Ms. Logan and her choices.
As CBS's chief foreign correspondent, as an inheritor of Edward Murrow's legacy <<LINK (http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0425.html)>>, as a woman in a male-dominated profession, and as a broadcast news journalist fighting for her profession's relevance in the age of the blogosphere, what realistic choices did she have but to go out and to get the story?
Teddy's lead prompted me to try and view this from a different perspective.
Trying to see things from your perspective, N550G, so bear with me.
Might not get it right, as I've not walked a mile in women's shoes. (my size 13s won't fit...)
There is the cold-hearted logical approach of cause and effect through which many view the issue.
This probably is a natural reaction for many when assessing a threatening situation, before or after the fact.
There is also the broader view of how the world should be, and if nobody will step forward to test boundaries, the world won't change.
While men are commended for their risk-taking, women are chastised for similar behavior.
Some societies hold women in higher regard, in part due to the efforts of brave women in the past.
These societies are usually much more civilized than those where women are oppressed.
Rather than getting into a chicken vs. egg argument, this could be seen as a virtuous cycle.
So, concerning Lara Logan we probably shouldn't be criticizing her motives.
She dared and strived, but the judgement and execution were perhaps lacking with this incident.
I pray that her wounds, physical and emotional, will be healed.
To add to both of these posts, Lara Logan needed to stay up on other correspondents such as Katie Couric who were travelling to Egypt and had shown blonde women can stand amongst the protests and give a report. Logan brought security but they apparently became separated. Why is no one questioning the security detail which was hired to protect her?
These two links regarding her Esquire interview are pretty interesting, I think.
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/lara-logan-egypt-assault-5241788
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/lara-logan-egypt-5219471Look at her hair color....
Stay safe.
I'm sorry guys but I'm with NG550 on this,her points are well taken...... :) I believe to some degree we are missing them........:) I'm with you girl on this one..........;)
Big Teddy :munchin
My long winded $.02
This is an interesting thread to me as a female former Army SSGT who spent 3 years working in Africa including Egypt. I have been back there on my own several times over the past 15 years as well. and since it is probably relevant, I have been assaulted (fought off attempted rapes).
I have been in dangerous situations, mostly due to local laws unarmed. I am not stupid. I knew my risks. I met reporters in Russia (female) whose risks were pretty high, but these women were not stupid. They wanted to change things more than they wanted to live a comfortable long life. We are all mortal. There are many ways to die and to live. Choosing a high risk assignment is a personal decision that may be driven by fame or just by internal drive. I don't know LL so I don't know what drives her.
The idea that only soldiers can be out in a dangerous world could be considered a rather a limited view. We thrive with commerce and we strive to open new markets and as a nation, we promote democracy and capitalism beyond our borders. I have the utmost respect for special forces and the people who serve and risk their lives.
I support them getting the best equipment and training. I admire their dedication and professionalism. I endeavor to be useful on this planet in my profession and accept all personal risks that may entail. Reporters (male or female) take personal risks to get a story. Or, they should just be anchors and be well protected and deliver the message reporters find.
The Reaper
02-19-2011, 10:05
There are bad people in the world.
We do not always understand other cultures and their actions.
Free will and choices lead to consequences, sometimes unforeseen.
Security is not absolute, nor can it be fully guaranteed.
You disregard the advice of your security at your own risk.
People will make unwise decisions in the pursuit of their careers.
Good people get hurt.
Life is not fair.
TR
[
And, thinking that she has already paid a pretty hefty price for that mistake, calling her stupid, IMO, just heaps burning coals on her already bruised head.
Oh did you watch Godfather reruns last week as well? :D
I didn't call her stupid. I stated, and believe, that her decision was stupid. ;) I do hope she heals...personally I don't think she'll ever be the same.
Oh did you watch Godfather reruns last week as well? :D
I didn't call her stupid. I stated, and believe, that her decision was stupid. ;) I do hope she heals...personally I don't think she'll ever be the same.
No one is the same after something like this. You either become stronger for it, and choose to not let it define who you are. Or you don't. But after an assault/rape you will NEVER go back to being who you were before it happened. I hope and pray she has good friends/family/professionals to help her through.
silentreader
02-19-2011, 17:00
One woman journalist's perspective. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/opinion/20barker.html?_r=1&ref=global-home)
Reporters are not the only women professionals who have to deal with sexual abuse. US military personel and Peace Corps volunteers also deal with the problem in staggering and heartbreaking numbers. In all three jobs, and I'm sure there are more, the woman makes a brave and commendable choice to enter a man's world from day one.
THOUSANDS of men blocked the road, surrounding the S.U.V. of the chief justice of Pakistan, a national hero for standing up to military rule. As a correspondent for The Chicago Tribune, I knew I couldn’t just watch from behind a car window. I had to get out there.
So, wearing a black headscarf and a loose, long-sleeved red tunic over jeans, I waded through the crowd and started taking notes: on the men throwing rose petals, on the men shouting that they would die for the chief justice, on the men sacrificing a goat.
And then, almost predictably, someone grabbed my buttocks. I spun around and shouted, but then it happened again, and again, until finally I caught one offender’s hand and punched him in the face. The men kept grabbing. I kept punching. At a certain point — maybe because I was creating a scene — I was invited into the chief justice’s vehicle.
At the time, in June 2007, I saw this as just one of the realities of covering the news in Pakistan. I didn’t complain to my bosses. To do so would only make me seem weak. Instead, I made a joke out of it and turned the experience into a positive one: See, being a woman helped me gain access to the chief justice.
And really, I was lucky. A few gropes, a misplaced hand, an unwanted advance — those are easily dismissed. I knew other female correspondents who weren’t so lucky, those who were molested in their hotel rooms, or partly stripped by mobs. But I can’t ever remember sitting down with my female peers and talking about what had happened, except to make dark jokes, because such stories would make us seem different from the male correspondents, more vulnerable. I would never tell my bosses for fear that they might keep me at home the next time something major happened.
I was hardly alone in keeping quiet. The Committee to Protect Journalists may be able to say that 44 journalists from around the world were killed last year because of their work, but the group doesn’t keep data on sexual assault and rape. Most journalists just don’t report it.
The CBS correspondent Lara Logan has broken that code of silence. She has covered some of the most dangerous stories in the world, and done a lot of brave things in her career. But her decision to go public earlier this week with her attack by a mob in Tahrir Square in Cairo was by far the bravest. Hospitalized for days, she is still recuperating from the attack, described by CBS as a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating.
Several commentators have suggested that Ms. Logan was somehow at fault: because she’s pretty; because she decided to go into the crowd; because she’s a war junkie. This wasn’t her fault. It was the mob’s fault. This attack also had nothing to do with Islam. Sexual violence has always been a tool of war. Female reporters sometimes are just convenient.
In the coming weeks, I fear that the conclusions drawn from Ms. Logan’s experience will be less reactionary but somehow darker, that there will be suggestions that female correspondents should not be sent into dangerous situations. It’s possible that bosses will make unconscious decisions to send men instead, just in case. Sure, men can be victims, too — on Wednesday a mob beat up a male ABC reporter in Bahrain, and a few male journalists have told of being sodomized by captors — but the publicity around Ms. Logan’s attack could make editors think, “Why take the risk?” That would be the wrong lesson. Women can cover the fighting just as well as men, depending on their courage.
More important, they also do a pretty good job of covering what it’s like to live in a war, not just die in one. Without female correspondents in war zones, the experiences of women there may be only a rumor.
Look at the articles about women who set themselves on fire in Afghanistan to protest their arranged marriages, or about girls being maimed by fundamentalists, about child marriage in India, about rape in Congo and Haiti. Female journalists often tell those stories in the most compelling ways, because abused women are sometimes more comfortable talking to them. And those stories are at least as important as accounts of battles.
There is an added benefit. Ms. Logan is a minor celebrity, one of the highest-profile women to acknowledge being sexually assaulted. Although she has reported from the front lines, the lesson she is now giving young women is probably her most profound: It’s not your fault. And there’s no shame in telling it like it is.
Kim Barker, a reporter for the investigative journalism Web site ProPublica, is the author of the forthcoming memoir “The Taliban Shuffle: Strange Days in Afghanistan and Pakistan.”
" In all three jobs, and I'm sure there are more, the woman makes a brave and commendable choice to enter a man's world from day one."
The below chronicles US Servicewomen from the Civil War, through Ft. Hood.
http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/lives.html
Servicewomen are to be cherished, IMO! They are kick-ASS!!!
Maybe Mrs. Logan can write a story about Them! :munchin
Holly
Silenttreader, thank you for posting that article. I think it puts into words the same thing normalgirl and I tried to, but obviously failed to do, at least on this thread.
Silenttreader, thank you for posting that article. I think it puts into words the same thing normalgirl and I tried to, but obviously failed to do, at least on this thread.
Add me to that point of view. Sometimes standards are so high they are double. ;)
Dozer523
02-19-2011, 19:16
I'll step in here with post number 124. It's been a hell of a read.
I've read comments that are sexist, ad hominem attacks on Ms Logan, post hoc logic, threats to thoughtful posters followed by 'oh, I'm sorry YOU took it the wrong way", "nobody should take a risk to do their job" arguements and suggesting that getting an award was the motivation for doing her job . . . Just to name a few.
Sounds like if Logan had a dingle-dangle instead of a dilly-dally we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
So anyone want to comment on the Situational Awareness of any of these guys? 54 War Correspondents KIA in WWII. http://www.54warcorrespondents-kia-30-ww2.com/government_file.html Of course not, they are all men.
Rest up Ms Logan, then get your ass back out there!
Utah Bob
02-20-2011, 19:32
I wish her a full and speedy recovery.
MTN Medic
02-20-2011, 19:37
Everyone's risk adversion is different from anyone else's. There is no reason to suspect she did not know how dangerous it was.
It is quite plausible that she knew well how dangerous it was and did it anyways. She is not asking for your pity. This was the price she payed for getting the sotry she wanted.
Did she think that this would really happen? Probably not, but the fact remains she probably had it in the back of her mind and decided to do it anyways.
This is not so different from what we do. We make a calculated risk in combat. We feel the risk is worth the reward and so did she.
I hope her a speedy recovery and death to those that did her harm.
Another Female Reporter attacked (not sexually)
FOX 40 News journalists John Lobertini, Rebecca Little, attacked by angry mourners
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/02/21/2011-02-21_news_journalists_attacked_by_angry_mourners_in_ california.html#ixzz1EbnqQBKD
At least this was in the US......
".........."It was a situation where I was trying to fight off 6 or 7 or 8 people, I can't even count them," he said.
Other reporters at the time were also threatened, including a photographer for the Sacramento Bee newspaper, according to News 10................"
Some interesting observations on the subject from those who are actually involved - female war correspondents.
Richard :munchin
The Dangers of Being a Female War Correspondent
AtlanticWire, 21 Feb 2011
Last week, CBS News correspondent Lara Logan was assaulted while covering Egyptian protests in Tahrir square. As details of the attack emerged, the incident sparked a pointed debate (and stupidly offensive rhetoric) over the place of female reporters in violent war zones. Over the weekend, a number of female correspondents have weighed in with their take on Lara Logan's well-publicized situation and on the double-standard that all too frequently occurs when women go on war reporting assignments.
• Women Reporters Face 'Bizarre Patronizing' In the Field figures Susan Reimer at the Baltimore Sun, herself once told by an editor that "he would be willing to send me on an assignment where I could be killed--but not one where I could be raped." Of the many lingering questions after Logan's assault, Reimer is preoccupied with this: Why did it take CBS five days to report the details of Logan's assault? Was it because of "some vestigial concern about identifying victims of sexual assault?" And, Logan has been "asked repeatedly by interviewers about leaving two young children behind in order to cover war zones, and she has been candid about the irreconcilable conflict her work presents to her motherhood. But I don't recall anyone asking Mr. Woodruff what business he had riding the deadly roads of Iraq when he had a wife and four children at home."
• Lara Logan Assault Has Broken 'Code of Silence' For Female Reporters "In the coming weeks, I fear that the conclusions drawn from Ms. Logan’s experience will be less reactionary but somehow darker, that there will be suggestions that female correspondents should not be sent into dangerous situations," writes war correspondent Kim Barker at ProPublica. She fears that male editors may make "unconscious" decisions to send men to cover the fighting--which would be a mistake. Women "do a pretty good job of covering what it’s like to live in a war, not just die in one," Barker writes. "Without female correspondents in war zones, the experiences of women there may be only a rumor."
• This Type of Abuse Occurs Frequently, and Not Just in Islamic States In the New York Times, Sabrina Tavernise gives a first person account of her experience as a war reporter in Russia, Lebanon, Pakistan and Turkey. "In none of these places was I dragged off and raped, but I have encountered abuse in many of them," she writes. "In my experience, Muslim countries were not the worst places for sexual harassment. My closest calls came in Georgia with soldiers from Russia, a society whose veneer of rules and civility often covers a pattern of violence, often alcohol laced, toward women."
• I Was In the Same Mob as Lara Logan recounts the Daily Mail's Angella Johnson, who nevertheless notes her experience "cannot be compared to the trauma Lara suffered, [but was] deeply upsetting." Here's how Johnson responded to critics who say that Logan was attacked because she was "petite and attractive": "I find such comment offensive. No one ever says a male journalist asked for it if he gets beaten up. And I could not have covered up more – apart from wearing a burka."
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions/view/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Being-a-Female-War-Correspondent-7048
The Reaper
02-21-2011, 19:31
Oh Hell no.
Any male reporter who voluntarily went out after the news broke of the first beatings was a dumbass.
A number of male reporters and their crews were isolated or trapped, and I have some sympathy for them. Those out there to get the feelings of the man on the Arab street after the first reporter beatdowns got what they predictably risked.
TR
But her decision to go public earlier this week with her attack by a mob in Tahrir Square in Cairo was by far the bravest.
Bullshit. If we are going to commend her for taking calculated risks to "get the story", then she (and every other news agency) doesn't get to invoke some kind of "privacy pass" and not report not only the story, but the gory details that seem to pervade any other news report. We see video clips of soldiers screaming in pain as their comrades try to put a tourniquet on their amputated limbs, because the public has a "right to know". We watch hordes of reporters swarm around public figures shouting their questions about the latest scandal while their "story" is blinded from the camera flashes and bumped from dozens of microphones in the face, because the public has a "right to know". News agencies bitched and moaned when the DOD wouldn't let them take photos or video at Dover AFB when the caskets were flown home, because the public has a "right to know". Well, now the story-collector is the story, and guess what--the public has a "right to know" about this as well. Turnabout is a MF.
Oh Hell no.
Any male reporter who voluntarily went out after the news broke of the first beatings was a dumbass.
A number of male reporters and their crews were isolated or trapped, and I have some sympathy for them. Those out there to get the feelings of the man on the Arab street after the first reporter beatdowns got what they predictably risked.
TR
Am not cheerleading here, but DAMN! This new SITREP could not be any more well stated than the words of TR.
WTH are these bitches thinking? Well, "I KNOW! Hand waiving in the air...shouting, Pick me, pick me!!!"
"WE can get the story, and the scoop, all we have to do is throw all inteligent thought aside! THEN, WE WILL GET THE NOBEL PRIZE!":rolleyes:
Sorry folks, but that is ALL these folks are after, FAME peroid. To say otherwise is stupidity, IMO.
Holly
Utah Bob
03-02-2011, 19:44
Am not cheerleading here, but DAMN! This new SITREP could not be any more well stated than the words of TR.
WTH are these bitches thinking? Well, "I KNOW! Hand waiving in the air...shouting, Pick me, pick me!!!"
"WE can get the story, and the scoop, all we have to do is throw all inteligent thought aside! THEN, WE WILL GET THE NOBEL PRIZE!":rolleyes:
Sorry folks, but that is ALL these folks are after, FAME peroid. To say otherwise is stupidity, IMO.
Holly
WEll, call me stupid but I don't think fame is the overriding factor for war correspondents, male or female, anymore than shiny medals are for most soldiers. Some of course, but certainly not all. You can't lump them all together. I've known both kinds.
Am not cheerleading here, but DAMN! This new SITREP could not be any more well stated than the words of TR.
WTH are these bitches thinking? Well, "I KNOW! Hand waiving in the air...shouting, Pick me, pick me!!!"
"WE can get the story, and the scoop, all we have to do is throw all inteligent thought aside! THEN, WE WILL GET THE NOBEL PRIZE!":rolleyes:
Sorry folks, but that is ALL these folks are after, FAME peroid. To say otherwise is stupidity, IMO.
Holly
If someone demeaned your chosen profession in the manner you just did to ALL war journalists I wonder how you would feel?
I would like to think QP's appreciate bravery wherever we find it and in any occupation and regardless of gender. I know some brave women - including 98G-attacked by our "own" while serving, so there is no safe place.
Franz
My long winded $.02
This is an interesting thread to me as a female former Army SSGT who spent 3 years working in Africa including Egypt. I have been back there on my own several times over the past 15 years as well. and since it is probably relevant, I have been assaulted (fought off attempted rapes).
I have been in dangerous situations, mostly due to local laws unarmed. I am not stupid. I knew my risks. I met reporters in Russia (female) whose risks were pretty high, but these women were not stupid. They wanted to change things more than they wanted to live a comfortable long life. We are all mortal. There are many ways to die and to live. Choosing a high risk assignment is a personal decision that may be driven by fame or just by internal drive. I don't know LL so I don't know what drives her.
The idea that only soldiers can be out in a dangerous world could be considered a rather a limited view. We thrive with commerce and we strive to open new markets and as a nation, we promote democracy and capitalism beyond our borders. I have the utmost respect for special forces and the people who serve and risk their lives.
I support them getting the best equipment and training. I admire their dedication and professionalism. I endeavor to be useful on this planet in my profession and accept all personal risks that may entail. Reporters (male or female) take personal risks to get a story. Or, they should just be anchors and be well protected and deliver the message reporters find.
I watch 60 minutes every Sunday. Not one mention of this incident. Not even a blurb saying they wish her a speedy recovery. When Anderson Cooper got slapped around it was all over the news. It seems like this incident is being hushed. I have no idea why.
I watch 60 minutes every Sunday. Not one mention of this incident. Not even a blurb saying they wish her a speedy recovery.
Lara Logan is Chief Foreign Correspondent for CBS News of which 60 Minutes is only a sub-element for which she periodically submits reports.
CBS News covered the incident...apparently IAW Ms Logan' personal wishes. I suspect 60 Minutes did the same.
Richard :munchin
......... When Anderson Cooper got slapped around it was all over the news......................
Maybe because Lara Logan is more of a man than Anderson Cooper is.
Give it some time. When the bruises are gone and she is able to talk about the incident without becoming emotional, I am sure that Ms. Logan will tell the story. I imagine that she will also incorporate into the piece some of the many other incidents of Egyptian women being assaulted recently as well. Perhaps she will even interview (if they can find them) some of the women who stepped in to help her. (If the Brotherhood permits, of course). This may require Ms. Logan to go back to Egypt. I don't see this happening until things have "settled down" a bit. It's good press for both CBS and those involved on the Egyptian side to go forward with the story- Give it a few months.
We'll see.
Susie
blacksmoke
04-28-2011, 19:45
Wow, just wow.
To say that I am saddened by some of the posts I have read here, is truly an understatement. As an officer and a woman.
Ms. Logan is a professional in a dangerous line of work. She CHOSE that profession, just as those of us in the military CHOSE a dangerous profession. My bet is for many of the same reasons, mainly that chosen profession being a calling.
When one of us is hurt or killed in the line of duty, it is very rare to see any comments on this site about how that person should have never been there in the first place. We honor their service because they are fighting for something we all believe in. Why should that be any different for Ms. Logan?
Being the professional she is, she went were she was sent by her bosses. Most of you don't agree with that choice. But where would we be without people like Ms. Logan?
Granted the MSM is not the pillar of society some of us would like. But one of the great things about this country is our press. We may not always liike the things some of them say, but we PROTECT their right to say whatever they want. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. But where would we be as a country without them? The press is ingrained in what we are as a country, and what we stand for.
Would we rather have had the reports coming out of the Middle East come solely from Middle Eastern media outlets because it was too dangerous for any western journalists to be there? Or maybe it should just be male reporters because we know none of them were hurt reporting on Egypt (Anderson Cooper anyone?) Someone has to take the risk to go into dangerous places, and report what is going on. You may not like that it was a woman who was sent, but it was.
Who of us matures in this world, by only staying where we are safe, or only doing things that are safe? If that were the case we would all be locked in a bedroom in our parents house, never to venture out into the world to find our calling. If we avoid risk, what can we ever hope to gain?
I guess we could get into further discussions about what are appropriate professions for women, and what are not, but I guess we can save that for another day. Ms. Logan did her job, and for that I am greatful. I am sorry this happened to her, but as I am sure she will learn, as I did, a sexual assault even as brutal as this one was, does not define who you are, unless you let it!
I will lay money down that she comes out a stronger woman, and a better reporter because of it.
Very well said mam.
I'll step in here with post number 124. It's been a hell of a read.
I've read comments that are sexist, ad hominem attacks on Ms Logan, post hoc logic, threats to thoughtful posters followed by 'oh, I'm sorry YOU took it the wrong way", "nobody should take a risk to do their job" arguements and suggesting that getting an award was the motivation for doing her job . . . Just to name a few.
Sounds like if Logan had a dingle-dangle instead of a dilly-dally we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
So anyone want to comment on the Situational Awareness of any of these guys? 54 War Correspondents KIA in WWII. http://www.54warcorrespondents-kia-30-ww2.com/government_file.html Of course not, they are all men.
Rest up Ms Logan, then get your ass back out there!
F'kin A right!
..........So anyone want to comment on the Situational Awareness of any of these guys? 54 War Correspondents KIA in WWII. http://www.54warcorrespondents-kia-3...ment_file.html Of course not, they are all men.
Rest up Ms Logan, then get your ass back out there!"
F'kin A right!
Since you brought up WW II and linked it to this situation - how many of the 54 were with an "enemy" unit when they got whacked?
But since you did bring up WW II
http://www.whenourmotherswenttowar.com/downloads/photo-warcorresp.htm
Dozer523
04-29-2011, 04:10
Very well said mam.
"I've read comments that are sexist, ad hominem attacks on Ms Logan, post hoc logic, threats to thoughtful posters followed by 'oh, I'm sorry YOU took it the wrong way", "nobody should take a risk to do their job" arguements and suggesting that getting an award was the motivation for doing her job . . . Just to name a few.
Sounds like if Logan had a dingle-dangle instead of a dilly-dally we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
So anyone want to comment on the Situational Awareness of any of these guys? 54 War Correspondents KIA in WWII. http://www.54warcorrespondents-kia-3...ment_file.html Of course not, they are all men.
Rest up Ms Logan, then get your ass back out there!"
F'kin A right! As the President of the AFCHIC Fan club I would like to point out that this insightful comment and rapier ripost was not ATUALLY her words. see post #124:p
Middle Eastern men treatment of women is NOT on par with the USofA treatment of women.
Stay safe.
I don't think I appreciate your superior tone.
Last I heard, there were two genders. Guys and girls. Dudes and chicks. There's no need to get all hypersensitive.
Genders : masculine and femine
Sexes: male and female
BTW, Wouldn't ...men and women; boys and girls; guys and gals; dudes and dudettes be more appropriate?
The Reaper
04-29-2011, 08:52
Very well said mam.
"I've read comments that are sexist, ad hominem attacks on Ms Logan, post hoc logic, threats to thoughtful posters followed by 'oh, I'm sorry YOU took it the wrong way", "nobody should take a risk to do their job" arguements and suggesting that getting an award was the motivation for doing her job . . . Just to name a few.
Sounds like if Logan had a dingle-dangle instead of a dilly-dally we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
So anyone want to comment on the Situational Awareness of any of these guys? 54 War Correspondents KIA in WWII. http://www.54warcorrespondents-kia-3...ment_file.html Of course not, they are all men.
Rest up Ms Logan, then get your ass back out there!"
F'kin A right!
Sounds like you are making some pretty broad generalizations yourself.
TR
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
CBS Reporter Lara Logan Describes Sexual Attacks
USAToday, 29 Apr 2011
Two months after a brutal attack during the protests in Cairo, CBS reporter Lara Logan says "there was no doubt in my mind that I was in the process of dying." And despite the horrific ordeal, Logan plans to return to reporting in trouble spots.
"I am so much stronger," she says in a release from CBS News, marking her first public statements since the repeated sexual attacks by a mob in Cairo. Logan, who has returned to work, will tell her story on CBS' 60 Minutes this Sunday.
She hopes her story will help others who have been sexually assaulted, especially other female journalists.
On Feb. 11, Logan was in Cairo covering the city's celebration of the regime change in Egypt. She was conducting interviews in Tahrir Square when she became separated from her crew and was sexually and physically assaulted by a mob.
"I thought not only am I going to die, but it's going to be just a torturous death that's going to go on forever," Logan said. In an interview with The New York Times, she said her clothes were "torn to pieces," and that "for an extended period of time, they raped me with their hands."
A group of Egyptian women and soldiers rescued her.
Logan has spent much time covering conflicts, including Iraq and Afghanistan, which are often hostile environments for Western women.
"Lara Logan is an extremely talented, courageous journalist," says Alicia Shepard, an ombudsman at NPR. "Her gender should have nothing to do with whether she should cover a war. It should be up to Lara Logan."
"Covering war, conflict and political upheaval all entails possible physical danger, and we have to be more careful," says Hun Shik Kim, who covered Iraq and now teaches at the University of Colorado. "We used to be considered neutral observers, but the level of hostility toward foreign journalists is quite high."
Logan said she does not intend to give any more interviews about the attack.
"I don't want this to define me," she told the Times.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-04-28-Lara-Logan-sexual-assault-Egypt_n.htm?csp=YahooModule_News
I've had it with the PC BS. Victim hell - she did everything wrong that she possibly could have. The first lesson any intelligent person learns is avoidance. This is as blatant a case as has ever existed of the victim sharing a considerable measure of responsibility for the assault. She is an experienced world traveler with a high degree of cultural awareness. She knew the risks and chose to ignore them. She deliberately put herself in harm's way. She was thrown out of country and chose to return "for the story". She chose to disregard warnings, failed to employ basic personal security measures, went into the thick of an emotionally charged mob, and paid a price for it. A little situational awareness, some common sense, simply avoiding the situation in the first place, and she would have been relatively safe. It's time to acknowlege that bad things happen to people who do stupid things. And stupid people need to accept some responsibility when their stupidity gets them in trouble. It's an aspect of Darwin.
How would you assess the soldiers who volunteered to run missions such as MACVSOG RT's?
How would you assess the soldiers who volunteered to run missions such as MACVSOG RT's?
What? I didn't know any of them put their weapons down, walked into the middle of an enemy formation and said "Here I am."
blacksmoke
04-29-2011, 16:47
Post 139 has been fixed, I agree with both AFchic and Dozer, BS out.
Logan plans to return to reporting in trouble spots.
"I don't want this to define me," she told the Times.
Okay.Great!
Could.I.buy.a.vowel.Pat?
Blah,blah,blah....:munchin
She.is.exploxing.her.attack,IMHO.
And.trust.me...women.that.are.attacked.do.not.do.s o.:eek:
Holly
In response to what Echoes wrote:
How is she exploiting "her attack'? I believe Ms. Logan has said that the 60 Minutes chat would be the only one that she does (televised). If she were exploiting "her attack" do you not think that she would be on with everyone from Oprah to Geraldo to those crazies on the View? There is public interest in her story. What do you think she should do? Hide in a corner and cower? Part of the healing process with victims of assault is to not be ashamed about what transpired. And for some, talking about the incident helps. It also allows her to regain some of the "power" that was taken away from her when victimized. I may not agree with Ms. Logan's decision to put herself at risk in Cairo, however I for one see no problem with the way she is handling her recovery and telling her story.
Susie
Could.I.buy.a.vowel.Pat?
Holly
Yes, mam. ;)
Pat
In response to what Echoes wrote:
1.What do you think she should do? Hide in a corner and cower? Part of the healing process with victims of assault is to not be ashamed about what transpired. And for some, talking about the incident helps. It also allows her to regain some of the "power" that was taken away from her when victimized.
2.I for one see no problem with the way she is handling her recovery and telling her story.Susie
Recovery?
Really?
Did.you.happen.to.read.the.part.where.she.said.she .is.going.right.back.in?:rolleyes:
In.answer.to.your.first.question,Ma'am,NO.
I.learned.how.to.box.
Holly:munchin
I really see no point in continuing this debate with you. We obviously have vastly different opinions on the matter. I say with the utmost sincerity that I am glad that boxing helped you with your recovery. No woman deserves to be attacked. I'll leave it at that.
Susie
I guess people believe that women in the Middle East, have the same rights as here.:rolleyes:
Two good books too educate those that have not been to the ME:
Paramedic to the Prince: An American Paramedic's Account of Life Inside the Mysterious World of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (http://www.amazon.com/Paramedic-Prince-American-Paramedics-Mysterious/dp/1439245819/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1304202985&sr=8-1)
A Californian paramedic answers an advertisement for contract work at a military hospital in Saudi Arabia. So his adventure begins. This is a riveting, factual account of his ten years inside a country seldom seen by the outside world. Working on the private medical staff of King Abdullah, no western writer has ever been this close to the "House of Saud". The author takes you on a journey from the desert camps of the Bedouin to the highest echelons of the Saudi royal family. From meetings between King Abdullah and Yasser Arafat to the death of Edi Amin the author documents it all. Themes explored include the contrast of cultures and the rise of terrorism in a post 9/11 world. The author's unique and often humorous perspective provides a view of Saudi society that has never before been documented by any other book in this genre. The author gives an important insight to events that continue to affect the world today.
About the Author
Patrick Notestine was born in California. He drifted from job to job after leaving high school, working as a gas station attendant and farm laborer amongst other things. At the age of 23, he took a long hard look at the direction his life was going. At the back of his mind was an interest in science and medicine. Becoming an Emergency Medical Technician seemed a good option, so he enrolled on a course at his local college. Graduating in March 1983, he started working on an ambulance. He attended UCLA School for Pre-hospital Care and graduated as a paramedic in 1986. He found work on primary response ambulances and eventually moved on to helicopter and air medical evacuation. In 1993, the author answered an advertisement to work at a hospital in Saudi Arabia. Working on the private medical staff of King Abdullah, he enjoyed unprecedented access to the "House of Saud". The Middle East is never far from the author's heart. He has recently taken another assignment with a major oil company.
In the Land of Invisible Women: A Female Doctor's Journey in the Saudi Kingdom (http://www.amazon.com/Land-Invisible-Women-Doctors-Journey/dp/1402210876/ref=pd_sim_b_1)
This memoir is a journey into a complex world readers will find fascinating and at times repugnant. After being denied a visa to remain in the U.S., British-born Ahmed, a Muslim woman of Pakistani origin, takes advantage of an opportunity, before 9/11, to practice medicine in Saudi Arabia. She discovers her new environment is defined by schizophrenic contrasts that create an absurd clamorous clash of modern and medieval.... It never became less arresting to behold. Ahmed's introduction to her new environment is shocking. Her first patient is an elderly Bedouin woman. Though naked on the operating table, she still is required by custom to have her face concealed with a veil under which numerous hoses snake their way to hissing machines. Everyday life is laced with bizarre situations created by the rabid puritanical orthodoxy that among other requirements forbids women to wear seat belts because it results in their breasts being more defined, and oppresses Saudi men as much as women by its archaic rules. At times the narrative is burdened with Ahmed's descriptions of the physical characteristics of individuals and the luxurious adornments of their homes but this minor flaw is easily overlooked in exchange for the intimate introduction to a world most readers will never know. (Sept.)
Denied visa renewal in America, British-born Pakistani physician Ahmed, 31, leaves New York for a job in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, where she celebrates her Muslim faith on an exciting Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca even as she encounters rabid oppression from the state-sanctioned religious extremist police. She is licensed to operate ICU machines in the emergency ward, but as a woman, she is forbidden to drive, and she must veil every inch of herself. Her witty insider-outsider commentary as a Muslim and feminist, both reverent and highly critical, provides rare insight into the upper-class Saudi scene today, including the roles of women and men in romance, weddings, parenting, divorce, work, and friendship. After 9/11, she is shocked at the widespread anti-Americanism. The details of consumerism, complete with Western brand names, get a bit tiresome, but they are central to this honest memoir about connections and conflicts, and especially the clamorous clash of “modern and medieval, . . . Cadillac and camel.” --Hazel Rochman
SparseCandy
04-30-2011, 22:26
I guess people believe that women in the Middle East, have the same rights as here.:rolleyes:
Two good books too educate those that have not been to the ME:
Paramedic to the Prince: An American Paramedic's Account of Life Inside the Mysterious World of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (http://www.amazon.com/Paramedic-Prince-American-Paramedics-Mysterious/dp/1439245819/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1304202985&sr=8-1)
In the Land of Invisible Women: A Female Doctor's Journey in the Saudi Kingdom (http://www.amazon.com/Land-Invisible-Women-Doctors-Journey/dp/1402210876/ref=pd_sim_b_1)
Respectfully - women will never have better rights in the middle east (or anywhere) if women refuse to take the risks to fight for them. One way of fighting for them is foreign women refusing to be to afraid to do their jobs in other cultures.
I personally don't have the risk tolerance of a war correspondent - I'm support personnel, not front lines. But I respect and value the role that front line people play and Ms. Logan was on those front lines by choosing to report from that area. It is a false assumption to think that anyone on this board believes women in the middle east currently have the same rights as USA women. But they SHOULD have the same rights. The trick is in getting from current to ideal. We can support that in a small way by not blaming the victim.
Should it matter where, and under what circumstances, a person's unalienable rights were violated? Or is there a different standard for an African woman?:confused:
As for the issue of "exploitation," I would point out that tomorrow is the first Sunday in May sweeps <<LINK (http://www.nielsen.com/content/dam/corporate/us/en/public%20factsheets/tv/2010-2011-Sweeps-Dates-for-nielsen-com.pdf)>>. It seems to me that the Tiffany Network is focused on commerce while Ms. Logan is working on catharsis and communication.
Respectfully - women will never have better rights in the middle east (or anywhere) if women refuse to take the risks to fight for them. One way of fighting for them is foreign women refusing to be to afraid to do their jobs in other cultures.At what cost to those of us whom provide protection?:confused:
I've taken plenty of US female "medical" professionals out & about in Iraq. I've never let them be alone in room full of Iraqi males...NEVER!:cool:
The two books I mentioned above should be required reading, especially for females traveling in the Middle East.
BTW...Every month we'd hold an Iraqi kids day. I'd have to separate the girls from the boys because the boys would dominate the girls. HELL! I damn near had go H2H so the girls could eat first.:eek:
Stay safe.
SparseCandy
05-01-2011, 09:12
At what cost to those of us whom provide protection?:confused:
I've taken plenty of US female "medical" professionals out & about in Iraq. I've never let them be alone in room full of Iraqi males...NEVER!:cool:
The two books I mentioned above should be required reading, especially for females traveling in the Middle East.
BTW...Every month we'd hold an Iraqi kids day. I'd have to separate the girls from the boys because the boys would dominate the girls. HELL! I damn near had go H2H so the girls could eat first.:eek:
Stay safe.
At whatever cost those who are protecting them are willing to take and, when there are no protectors available, at whatever cost the person standing up is willing to take. Ms. Logan didn't go in there alone - someone thought the reward was worth the risk. And she paid the price for that - a price no one should have to pay but in reality far too many do.
Your willingness to let the girls eat first might be labelled by some as too risky - why upset the apple cart like that? But you were willing to take the risk. Hopefully with small steps in the right direction the next group of people won't have to separate them. If I'm reading you correctly, Ms. Logan's step in the right direction was too big for your risk tolerance. But that doesn't make it wrong, it just means you shouldn't be forced to be on the security detail. :)
I've got the books on my amazon reading list - thank you for the recommendations.
Your willingness to let the girls eat first might be labelled by some as too risky - why upset the apple cart like that?It's quite embarrassing standing there when the males ate all the food and females are looking hungry.:eek:
I've been in some Middle Eastern "mobs gone wild" events where we had too E&E to get the client out, we even had to leave guys behind. Here's the catch...those guys, knew that they were on their own until we could get back and/or they'd have to make it back on there own.:cool:
A female going out in public in the middle east, during civil unrest with blonde hair and blue eyes exposed wearing slacks amongst, hyped up males whom, already treat their own women terribly...just ain't right!:cool:
"It's only funny when you're back and safe." ;)
Stay safe.
Team Sergeant
05-01-2011, 09:57
Respectfully - women will never have better rights in the middle east (or anywhere) if women refuse to take the risks to fight for them. One way of fighting for them is foreign women refusing to be to afraid to do their jobs in other cultures.
I personally don't have the risk tolerance of a war correspondent - I'm support personnel, not front lines. But I respect and value the role that front line people play and Ms. Logan was on those front lines by choosing to report from that area. It is a false assumption to think that anyone on this board believes women in the middle east currently have the same rights as USA women. But they SHOULD have the same rights. The trick is in getting from current to ideal. We can support that in a small way by not blaming the victim.
I could not agree more, but even lion tamers carry whips until the lion is "tame". ;)
I have been a bodyguard to ambassadors, a senator and political VIP's. I'll never do it again, not for all the money at Ft. Knox. Some of the reasons why have been mentioned on this thread and goes well beyond Ms. Logan's adventures.
IMO 99.999% of the adults of this world are not worth "protecting".
I would love to see all the "contractors" walk away from their jobs protecting the sheep. (politicians, reporters, the wealthy and the celebs.) Wouldn't that be a hoot!
I could not agree more, but even lion tamers carry whips until the lion is "tame". Your great-great-great-grand children will be swinging that whip.:D
For two years I worked with this guy Ben Fluhart (http://iraq-prt.usembassy.gov/prt_salah042710.html) every day trying to institute a Iraqi women's health initiative...he dies in his sleep five days after getting home.:(
"I had to ask myself...was it even worth it?" I've seen some "medical" clinics I wouldn't even take my dog to.
FIDO & stay safe.
ApacheIP
05-01-2011, 17:37
The Logan interview was very compelling tonight. Now looking for a transcript link to post if you missed it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/28/60minutes/main20058368.shtml
Echoes, just because Ms. Logan is not handling her attack in the same manner some women would does not mean she is using it to further her career.
Since my rape, I have spent many hours relaying my attack, and how I got over it. Hopefully what I learned helped other women either prevent it from happening to them, or helping others being able to deal with it. Who is it to say she is not taking to the airwaves to do the same thing? Would you say I was using my rape to further my career?
We are all not the same, we all react differently to different things. I do not think it is fair of you to be judging her because she is handling her attack in a public manner, just because it is not how you would do it if it were you.
afchic,
Let us NOT compare the two...
Stay safe.
afchic,
Let us NOT compare the two...
Stay safe.
But support both.
Utah Bob
05-01-2011, 23:40
Echoes, just because Ms. Logan is not handling her attack in the same manner some women would does not mean she is using it to further her career.
Since my rape, I have spent many hours relaying my attack, and how I got over it. Hopefully what I learned helped other women either prevent it from happening to them, or helping others being able to deal with it. Who is it to say she is not taking to the airwaves to do the same thing? Would you say I was using my rape to further my career?
We are all not the same, we all react differently to different things. I do not think it is fair of you to be judging her because she is handling her attack in a public manner, just because it is not how you would do it if it were you.
My hat's off to you Ma'am.
But support both.There is NO doubt in my mind--"they would have killed me trying too protect her!"
Stay safe.
I think Ms. Logan is being very courageous being back at work and continuing with her life and career as she appears to be. My hat is off to her, and you as well afchic. IMO, you are both strong willed women.
DeltaGolf
05-03-2011, 13:06
Echoes, just because Ms. Logan is not handling her attack in the same manner some women would does not mean she is using it to further her career.
Since my rape, I have spent many hours relaying my attack, and how I got over it. Hopefully what I learned helped other women either prevent it from happening to them, or helping others being able to deal with it. Who is it to say she is not taking to the airwaves to do the same thing? Would you say I was using my rape to further my career?
We are all not the same, we all react differently to different things. I do not think it is fair of you to be judging her because she is handling her attack in a public manner, just because it is not how you would do it if it were you.
Very well said, afchick.
I have great respect for victims like you and Ms. Logan who break the silence and speak about their attacks. Ms. Logan has the advantage of a public platform with which to educate and dispel the view that being a rape victim is something to be ashamed of.
Silence only perpetuates the myth that victims somehow brought the assault on themselves. Rape victims should be encouraged to speak out. Hopefully, Ms. Logan's interview will help others.
Very well said, afchick.
I have great respect for victims like you and Ms. Logan who break the silence and speak about their attacks. Ms. Logan has the advantage of a public platform with which to educate and dispel the view that being a rape victim is something to be ashamed of.
Silence only perpetuates the myth that victims somehow brought the assault on themselves. Rape victims should be encouraged to speak out. Hopefully, Ms. Logan's interview will help others.
Or, maybe I'm just dumb!
Lara Logan put herself in a position that this could happen. Look at the goddamn video!
I've been in some fucked-up crowds before and till this day...I avoid them SOBs!
If they'd gave me a choice:
#1. Go into a ME country with a uprising....
Or
#2. Run through a KKK meeting...
I'd take #2 in a heartbeat!:D
Stay safe.
frostfire
05-04-2011, 10:03
I've had it with the PC BS. Victim hell - she did everything wrong that she possibly could have. The first lesson any intelligent person learns is avoidance. This is as blatant a case as has ever existed of the victim sharing a considerable measure of responsibility for the assault. She is an experienced world traveler with a high degree of cultural awareness. She knew the risks and chose to ignore them. She deliberately put herself in harm's way. She was thrown out of country and chose to return "for the story". She chose to disregard warnings, failed to employ basic personal security measures, went into the thick of an emotionally charged mob, and paid a price for it. A little situational awareness, some common sense, simply avoiding the situation in the first place, and she would have been relatively safe. It's time to acknowlege that bad things happen to people who do stupid things. And stupid people need to accept some responsibility when their stupidity gets them in trouble. It's an aspect of Darwin.
Concur. However, I'm saddened by her admission of ignorance. I do not see high degree of cultural awareness or calculated risk.
From the interview:
Logan: I had no idea how endemic that it is so rife, so widespread, that so many Egyptian men admit to sexual harassing women and think it's completely acceptable.
Logan: That women never complain about incidents of sexual violence because you don't want someone to say, "Well women shouldn't be out there." But I think there are a lot of women who experience these kinds of things as journalists and they don't want it to stop their job because they do it for the same reasons as me - they are committed to what they do. They are not adrenaline junkies you know, they're not glory hounds, they do it because they believe in being journalists.
Then go in with the expectation that assault is part of the job, much like a soldier knows getting shot at is in the job description. Poor SA, poor cultural awareness, and so on. I could see this thread has been polarized. I'm trying my best to agree with her stance but can't help but to recall a definition I read once: A feminist is defined by a female who believes she can walk buck naked to a bike bar and not suffer any sexual assault be it physical, verbal, mental, or emotional. Idealistic? Yes. Commendable to advance gender equality, bla bla bla? Maybe. Realistic? NO! Heck-freakin-yes, women, especially one who sticks out with blonde hair and cleavage, should not be out there among ME male mob frenzy whose female harrasment record is well documented! So she noticed how the women who rescued her were dressed. Lightbulb going off there?
If she were my mother/sister/wife/any other female SO, I would not let her go out there. Is this another form of female-liberty oppression masked as protection? Give me a break!
Willfull ignorance or steadfast idealism in the face of big, bad, mean misogynists:rolleyes:?
Or, maybe I'm just dumb! Lara Logan put herself in a position that this could happen. Look at the goddamn video! I've been in some fucked-up crowds before and till this day...I avoid them SOBs!
If they'd gave me a choice:
#1. Go into a ME country with a uprising....
Or
#2. Run through a KKK meeting...
I'd take #2 in a heartbeat!
Concur. I was in a certain 3rd world country when an engineering expo featured catwalk and German models. The place was packed by mob in the hundreds who broke the front gate earlier. The way the crowd reacted as the models came with more and more revealing outfit caused me to be concerned for their safety. Hell, I was concerned for my and my dad's safety. The expo speaker had to calm the crowd down for over 30 min to let the event continue. Some places just have hard time accepting or acknowledging Western culture, and for females (and males) to go there expecting decency as defined back home, that IMHOO, is willful ignorance.
Hopefully what I learned helped other women either prevent it from happening to them, or helping others being able to deal with it. Who is it to say she is not taking to the airwaves to do the same thing?
I do not see how her interview prevents other from suffering the same fate. She acknowledged nothing wrong on her part. Dealing with it, yes. This is what breaks my heart. SANE (sexual assault nurse examiner) course teaches that you never, ever blame the victim. You assure safety and tell her that whatever she (or he) did is right because she's still alive. I have no problem telling the victim that. Telling potential-victim likewise does them no good. Is it any surprise there are no shortage of new victims?
Again, I'm trying my best to agree with her. Perhaps a good analogy is missionaries who knowingly go to hostile tribe, got killed, then they got labeled as stupid. For example, those who got killed at the hand of the Waodanis. However, they did expect violent response and went armed. They chose not to engage following their conviction. The analogy ends there. From Mrs Logan own admission and the comment that she reported safely for at least an hour, I gather she really did expect the crown to sing kombayah along with her. I feel sorry for what she went through, and sorrier for the blatant Darwinian aspect. Many more will follow her footsteps. Life is tough, it's tougher......
DeltaGolf
05-04-2011, 10:42
Or, maybe I'm just dumb!
Lara Logan put herself in a position that this could happen. Look at the goddamn video!
I've been in some fucked-up crowds before and till this day...I avoid them SOBs!
If they'd gave me a choice:
#1. Go into a ME country with a uprising....
Or
#2. Run through a KKK meeting...
I'd take #2 in a heartbeat!:D
Stay safe.
I don't disagree with you, Guy. On the other hand, if you were given orders to infiltrate the ME country, I'm 100% sure you would do so without hesitation. Logan's job was go to the ME and report on the uprisings. She did her job. I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound like she jumped into a frenzied riot. It sounds more like a relatively mild protest exploded around her. Now, if her security detail advised her to split and she refused, that's different. But I'd still say the blame rests solely with the animals in the mob.
\
But I'd still say the blame rests solely with the animals in the mob.
\
I agree with this statement. Yes, she may have gone into a situation that she would have better avoided. By that way of thinking, a soldier would never go into combat; a fireman would never run into a burning building; a police officer would never run to the gunfire; etc.
There are people who are driven to perform tasks that others would think ludicrous to attempt. A missionary will go into a primitive, possibly dangerous cultural area because he/she feels compelled to spread the Gospel, no matter the consequences.
Would she have been safe if she had stayed out of the crowd? Probably. Was that a risk she accepted as part of her job as a journalist? Maybe. Was the attack something she shares any responsibility for? Absolutely not! Not any more than a soldier shares responsibility for an IED which injures or kills him. The responsibilty lies soley with the scum who perform the act.
The Reaper
05-04-2011, 19:16
I have a problem with people comparing soldiers with journalists.
I don't see that close relationship.
TR
I have a problem with people comparing soldiers with journalists.
I don't see that close relationship.
TR
Concur: Jennings/Wallace Ethics in America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGg_dpGhlf0)
Pat
Concur: Jennings/Wallace Ethics in America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGg_dpGhlf0)
Pat
An excellent example of the moral divide that exists between some journalists and members of the military.
Personally, I was nauseated watching and listening to the Mike Wallace response. I will not speak ill of the dead.
Thank you for posting.
I have a problem with people comparing soldiers with journalists.
I don't see that close relationship.
TR
It has nothing to do with a relationship between soldiers and journalists. It refers to the drive, direction and committment people feel for what they believe is right and what they do. Soldiers and journalists were not the only examples I gave.
I have a problem with people comparing soldiers with journalists.
I don't see that close relationship.
TR
Can.feel.the.flames.coming.....But,just.as.a.humbl e.civilian.who.loves.OUR.military,I.agree.with.T's .post.....
Thought.Ialready.posted.this....but.maybe.not.....
Am.just.in.disagreement.of.Logan's.choice.to.go.ri ght.back.in.where.she.was.assulted!
Does.it.not.scream.to.anyone.else.that.purse.strin gs.a.k.a."her.job".are.on.the.line?
I.feel.for.her.:(
Holly
Concur: Jennings/Wallace Ethics in America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGg_dpGhlf0)
PatPat--
That's a good clip.
FWIW, the full video, part of the Ethics in America series, is available here (http://www.learner.org/vod/vod_window.html?pid=196) and part II of the broader discussion is available there (http://www.learner.org/vod/vod_window.html?pid=197).
tom kelly
02-18-2012, 21:59
Don't go to a gunfight without a gun; Even better bring some friends with guns, The more the better eg go with the 75th Ranger Regiment, that is a lot of guns.....TK