View Full Version : NYC mayor conducts gun-sale sting in Arizona
Seems worth discussing...
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110201/D9L3MSSO0.html
Thoughts?:munchin
Publicity stunt by an egomaniac who can't get his own city under control...
The Reaper
02-01-2011, 17:53
Can a LEO travel over a thousand miles away and do uncoordinated undercover purchases of firearms in another state without breaking the law?
Where is the BATFE and local LE?
Things must be different in AZ. At gun shows in NC, I cannot recall seeing anyone selling privately owned weapons at a table. A few would be walking around with a gun or two with "for sale" signs on them, but I thought that renting a table and plunking down several weapons to sell made you a dealer, and that required an FFL or C&R, with the associated paperwork and NICS requirement?
TR
Bloomberg (sp) is the complete narcissist. Worse yet he is the complete political
narcissist that believes he is on a holy mission to save all of us unenlightened types from oursleves.
We are just too stupid to see his magnificent genius.
From the article, apparently ATF has sent Bloomberg a letter in the past asking him not to conduct undercover purchases. Also, he asked the buyers to get Glock 9mm (19's I assume) and 33 round mags. Never let a crisis go to waste, huh? :rolleyes:
How about getting the city for another snowstorm Mike and making sure the premadonna drivers at sanitation don't whine and bitch for having to work overtime on their six figure salary during a storm? How about that Mike?
I see we are all in agreement on this one. This is very personal to me. A family friend of mine owns a big gun shop in PA. A few years ago so called “undercover agents” went into the gun store and bought a couple pistols. They were New York residents. Which in itself there is nothing illegal there. But, it turns out the agents work for the NYC police and since they were able to drive the guns back into the city, this was a crime in some way. The gun store owner got into a legal battle about it, but just ended up paying the fines. Obviously I left a lot of detail out of this story for the parties own protection. What gets me is I thought this was just some crazy isolated incident. The PA town is not far from NYC. I cannot believe Bloomberg has the nerve to just go to any state and do this! This is not even remotely legal in any aspect.
Now the whole “gunshow loophole” is completely ridiculous. I have been going to gun shows with my father since I was a little kid. Never in at least 15 years of going have I seen anyone ever sell a gun without paperwork. However, one important thing to note is that in some states, PA for example you can legally sell any long rifle person to person without paperwork. The state recommends a bill of sale, but that’s up to the buyer and seller. The only thing that is illegal to sell without a dealer is a pistol.
On the Reapers note about selling multiple guns at a show without paperwork I think in some states that could be legal. As long as they are long guns. I have never heard of a state where a pistol can be legally bought without paperwork and age requirements. For a person to do this, it would not be someone who does it on a regular basis. For example it might be a one time thing where someone moves, needs money and decides to sell off all their long arms in a day. I am just saying this in theory could be legal in some states. Remember though, I am not a lawyer in any manner. I am not recommending this. Do your own research and you will see what I am talking about.
So that’s both sides of it. Either way it is very upsetting. I just can not fathom how the BATFE lets Bloomberg continue to do this. He is just a mayor, he is not above the law, in any state, including his own.
I think Reaper was referring to Federal Law (FFL)...and I think he is right about the Dealer classification.
Also thought AZ had issues about out of state ID's, evidently not.
Gotta wonder what kind of brain surgeon would sell a handgun to someone who said 'don't think I'd pass the background check' and not ask why?
They always ask me for my ccw...
Too bad they didn't do it in Maricopa Co., Sheriff Arpaio would be all over it!
love that guy...
Iraqgunz
02-02-2011, 03:46
Let me shed some light on some things. Under Arizona law private citizens may sell their firearms to another private party (face to face sale) as long as they do not have reason to believe that the person is a prohibited person.
This includes gun shows. The only people required to conduct background checks at gun shows are licensed dealers. There is no such thing as an unlicensed dealer- that is Bloombergs feeble way of cracking at private sales.
Arizona law makes no mention of selling a firearm to someone out of state. That's because federal law already spells it out. You cannot purchase a handgun out of state unless the transaction is conducted through a licensed dealer. Long guns can be purchased out of state but as far as I am aware they must be conducted through a dealer as well. Some states do not allow this though such as California and Idaho.
If you look at the videos on their website the sellers asked for an Arizona ID and both times it was presented (at least according to their video).
The questions that need to be asked is whether or not they obtained Arizona ID's fraudulently.
Did they use local people to facilitate the sale?
Did they in fact violate federal law by conducting a straw purchase?
In the past the BATFE had told Bloomberg not to do such stuff. Now is someone going to do something or will he and his morons get a free pass?
Iraqgunz
02-02-2011, 03:47
The guy could have been joking. It hard to say. Rule of thumb is not to make a sale if you feel something isn't right.
I think Reaper was referring to Federal Law (FFL)...and I think he is right about the Dealer classification.
Also thought AZ had issues about out of state ID's, evidently not.
Gotta wonder what kind of brain surgeon would sell a handgun to someone who said 'don't think I'd pass the background check' and not ask why?
They always ask me for my ccw...
Too bad they didn't do it in Maricopa Co., Sheriff Arpaio would be all over it!
love that guy...
Combat Diver
02-02-2011, 04:28
Bloomberg needs to be arrested for straw purchases, period as it was he intention to do (break the law). As Iraqgunz states it is only federal law that you have to be 21 yo to by a handgun from a dealer and 18 yo for a longgun. States have their own requiremnets for ownership and individual sales. My kids owned guns when they were 2-5 yos old as it was legal in the state. When I grew up in Texas I bought my first firearm from a individual at the age of 16.
CD
Link to the videos Iraqgunz was talking about:
http://www.gunshowundercover.org/
Warning, the webpage may make you want to smash something!
Link to the videos Iraqgunz was talking about:
http://www.gunshowundercover.org/
Warning, the webpage may make you want to smash something!
Webpage just reaffirms my thoughts (and scientific evidence) of the damaged lefty gene pool. Its kinda sad they can't quite think straight and try to compensate by spending more time in school, less time in reality.
Thanks 35NCO and Iraqgunz for the info...I only purchase weapons from dealers; like a paper trail.
Side note related to video on website: How many of you guys would have gottin' an ass rippin' for calling a magazine a 'clip'? (no comment needed)
Sounds like a sloppy joint op of lefty sheriff and lefty mayor...
Hopefully ATF will realize the warning letters aren't working...
.
DJ Urbanovsky
02-02-2011, 13:57
You cannot purchase a handgun out of state unless the transaction is conducted through a licensed dealer.
Insofar as Internet or phone sales are concerned, that is correct. And then you have to pick them up from your local FFL, who will then run the checks as normal.
However, you cannot physically show up and purchase handguns outside of your state of residence from a licensed dealer at all. Laws may be different for LEOs or Mil folks, but I don't know about that. There are also local laws to consider as well.
ReefBlue
02-02-2011, 17:12
Bloomberg needs to be arrested for straw purchases, period as it was he intention to do (break the law). As Iraqgunz states it is only federal law that you have to be 21 yo to by a handgun from a dealer and 18 yo for a longgun. States have their own requiremnets for ownership and individual sales. My kids owned guns when they were 2-5 yos old as it was legal in the state. When I grew up in Texas I bought my first firearm from a individual at the age of 16.
CD
I think Virginia passed, or tried to pass, a law that says failure to disclose you are an LEO when buying a gun is a felony. Not sure if it went through, though.
They did this in response to Bloomberg sending his guys down there in his sting a few years ago.
Badger52
02-03-2011, 13:37
Bloomberg needs to be arrested for straw purchases, period as it was he intention to do (break the law). As Iraqgunz states it is only federal law that you have to be 21 yo to by a handgun from a dealer and 18 yo for a longgun. States have their own requiremnets for ownership and individual sales. My kids owned guns when they were 2-5 yos old as it was legal in the state. When I grew up in Texas I bought my first firearm from a individual at the age of 16.
CDCompletely agree sir. "Whoever misrepresents..." is present in all states in some manner in their laws. The Federal age requirements relate to sale by a Federally licensed dealer; the state possession criteria govern private sales. Bloomberg & the Sycophantic Mayors Ass'n, along with Gore, are competing at this very moment for a finite amount of credibility. Need to find my large-sizes P38 and commence work opening that 55-gal drum of whupass.
(The ATF of course was busy walking AR's across the border...)
John Lott got his retort in here. (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/02/02/mayor-bloombergs-arizona-gun-pr-stunt/#)
The Reaper
02-03-2011, 13:42
If someone sends someone else to fraudulently purchase a firearm in another state, how is that not a conspiracy to violate several federal firearms laws, and indictable in Federal Court?
TR
I've also gotta wonder just what kind of size two hat would take part in such a operation, too. :eek:
"Officer Justice, the governor wants you to fly 2,000 miles to another state and illegally purchase a firearm."
"OK."
Richard
It is hard to say what the truth is of who the “private investigators” really were. I think it is important to note that not a single news article or even Bloombergs website claims the investigators are actual active LEO’s. There was one article I read that said they were retired, another said they were Arizona residents that were hired by Bloomberg. If either of the latter is true, then Bloomberg was very clever about how he was going to do his little operation. It would have been seriously illegal for the investigators to be active LEO’s because the whole operation cannot be justified for all the reasons each new agency article keeps repeating. But to be private investigators, Bloomberg just hired them for this and they sent their results to him. How this operation cost $100,000 is confusing. $100K was spent on what exactly and to whom? How much were these private investigators personally paid to do this?
Now as far as the BATFE, they have their own misconduct they are involved in. I cannot expect the unlawful to be even attempting to uphold the law. As referenced in BATFE Gunrunner thread:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/02/senator-calls-atf-allegations-agency-allowing-guns-mexico/#
Now if this is what is really going on, what is the point anymore? This stuff has gotten beyond corruption and any reasonable moral integrity. You start out upset about these things, maybe even angry, but after awhile you just become numb. It is shocking, but what can I do about it? Just about nothing. I can just hope that my votes count and the people that are voted in do a reasonable job at actively enforcing the law and rooting out corruptions. I could spend all about forever being angry or upset about every little thing that surfaces that is unjustified, but what will that really do for me or my future? For now I am going to continue to serve my country and uphold the constitution in everything that I do. I do not have to be proud of everything our politicians are doing right now. It is the idea of just knowing what right and wrong are and understanding what freedoms were originally intentioned for the people of the United States of America. I think as long as some people still remember what this means we are going to be okay. As a father I will make sure my children learn about these things to continue this into the future, will you? It is what it is…
35NCO thats the right attitude to take. The right thing to do is always 'what works in the long run' and generally isn't always the easist thing to do at the time.
Be safe...
.
Roguish Lawyer
02-04-2011, 11:22
I find this to be completely outrageous.
Iraqgunz
02-04-2011, 14:00
I believe that this applies to private sales as well under federal law. I would have to look up that relevant section.
Insofar as Internet or phone sales are concerned, that is correct. And then you have to pick them up from your local FFL, who will then run the checks as normal.
However, you cannot physically show up and purchase handguns outside of your state of residence from a licensed dealer at all. Laws may be different for LEOs or Mil folks, but I don't know about that. There are also local laws to consider as well.
Give Bloomberg a break fella's.
He banned smoking in Time Square after all. He is just trying to protect all of us stupid people.
If he was acting in an official capacity, as he claims he was, and he's not a LEO in AZ or a fed, then he was conducting an investigation without the proper license, as I see it. Just my opinion but here's what the Arizona Dept. of Public Safety Website says:
"...It is illegal for a Private Investigator to work in Arizona without an Arizona license. Arizona does not have any reciprocity agreements with other states..."
Another opportunist politician looking for publicity. Makes me sick.
http://licensing.azdps.gov/Licenseprivateinvestigator.asp
AngelsSix
02-05-2011, 19:38
Bloomburg's an ass.:rolleyes:
Iraqgunz
02-07-2011, 16:10
The story is allegedly they used a local PI agency to make the buys. Unless someone digs depper, we won't know much.
If he was acting in an official capacity, as he claims he was, and he's not a LEO in AZ or a fed, then he was conducting an investigation without the proper license, as I see it. Just my opinion but here's what the Arizona Dept. of Public Safety Website says:
"...It is illegal for a Private Investigator to work in Arizona without an Arizona license. Arizona does not have any reciprocity agreements with other states..."
Another opportunist politician looking for publicity. Makes me sick.
http://licensing.azdps.gov/Licenseprivateinvestigator.asp
I'm of the view that people like the Mayor screw themselves quite well on their own. Which it is apparent he's already done, whether legal or not, the true colors come out.
Evidently more prevalent in city folks (er um, spent a lot time in the South Bronx); their too limited in their view of life to realize controlling everything is really not possible nor is it helpful. The side effect is that it produces a mass of weak, non resourceful, sheep. For those who don't know sheep are quite dumb.
As for the Mayor's future relevance, I say Jimmy Crack Corn, as his career will be limited to a small pond in the future. We'll see how many sheep NY has next election.
Oh, and GJ, no smoking in Times Square cause its bad for everyone else :rolleyes:
Every time I have flown to the NYC area, when they open the doors of the plane I know exactly where I'm at, even if I slept through a lay over or two. Different smell than LA but definitely 40% O2, 50% exhaust, and 10% New Jersey.
Talk about not focusing on the 25yrd target!
:eek: