View Full Version : Jogger Stands His Ground against Attacker
Too bad this guy wasn't in Tuscon:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/12/fla-jogger-wont-charged-shooting-teen/
silentreader
01-12-2011, 18:15
Prosecutors said Tuesday they are convinced Thomas Baker acted in self defense when he fired eight shots at 18-year-old Carlos Mustelier near Tampa in November.
Baker told police he reached for his gun when the teen punched him in the face.
I'm not saying that anybody was wrong here, but 8 shots seems to be an awfully strong response to being punched in the face.
The Reaper
01-12-2011, 18:27
I'm not saying that anybody was wrong here, but 8 shots seems to be an awfully strong response to being punched in the face.
Let's say you are 6'5", and weigh 260, and I am 5'5" and 65 years old. You attack me while I am jogging at night and say that you are going to kill me.
How many times do you think I should legally be required to let you hit me in the head before I am allowed to draw my weapon and defend myself?
Kind Sir, may I do so before I lose consciousness, and my gun?
When I shoot, I use as many rounds as necessary to neutralize the threat. Some situations may only require one round, and some might require a mag or two. How many do you think is appropriate? One? Two? Six?
You seem to be lacking a basic knowledge of lethal force application. I think that based on the report, the actions were reasonable and consistent with his right to self defense.
TR
I'm not saying that anybody was wrong here, but 8 shots seems to be an awfully strong response to being punched in the face.
Maybe - if you're at a frat party - drunk and are playing slap face with other drunks.
Jumping out on someone minding their own busines and punching them in the face as a first step to ............. what? I think the punk got what was coming.
What if it was your 17 year old daughter and he was just going to knock her out, drag her to some out of the way place and rape her?
ZonieDiver
01-12-2011, 18:56
I know of a person who was struck once to the side of his head, fell to the ground, hit his head on the curb, and never got up!
Once is too many! Blast away, sir!
Eagle5US
01-12-2011, 18:58
I'm not saying that anybody was wrong here, but 8 shots seems to be an awfully strong response to being punched in the face.
Yes, you are.
And a "strong response" is exactly what is ALWAYS necessary when the decision is made to utilize your firearm for personal defense.
You do not shoot to warn, nor shoot to wound. You discharge your weapon until you are satisfied that they are no longer a threat.
Basic rules of firearm use...only point your weapon at something you are willing to destroy.
Eagle
GrumpyMedic
01-12-2011, 19:20
Personally, I think the state of Florida should make the deceased's parents pay to replace the shooter's ammunition...
wandering_idiot
01-12-2011, 19:49
Personally, I think the state of Florida should make the deceased's parents pay to replace the shooter's ammunition...
They do that in China for executions.
I'm not saying that anybody was wrong here, but 8 shots seems to be an awfully strong response to being punched in the face.
It's midnight, you are assaulted by an unknown assailant, you shoot to kill, to save your life.....is he armed, you don't know but at that hour what does one assume.
If someone unknown to me and for no reason punches me in the face I assume the worst and kill them. You kill them beyond a shadow of a doubt, reload a fresh clip, clear 360 then call 911....practice that and do not think in terms of 'measured response' ....measured response gets one dead quickly.
Dozer523
01-12-2011, 21:03
I'm not saying that anybody was wrong here, but 8 shots seems to be an awfully strong response to being punched in the face.
Probably has a sloppy re-load. He's alive, he can work on it.
craigepo
01-12-2011, 21:27
Silentreader,
I see that you are about to ship out for basic training. Outstanding.
Keep one thing in mind, if you ever have to use your weapon. People don't always realize that they are supposed to fall down and die, just because you put a bullet in them. The phrase used when I was in the service was "Drive 'em down", meaning keep pulling the damned trigger until you were sure Mr. Bad Guy was down and unable to hurt you or your fellow soldiers.
The teen was hit four times in the chest, back and buttocks.
Not at all excessive. Have to wonder which 4 missed their target - first 4? A good reminder of why it's nice to have decent clip capacity. Similar circumstances but with two assailants could have had a very different outcome.
Glad to see Mr. Baker's rights upheld.
-out
silentreader
01-12-2011, 22:16
Gentlemen,
First of all, good points. The decision to draw and shoot a gun at a human should always be a decision to kill, and the jogger was completely justified in making that decision upon being punched in the face.
Here's an article with a little more detail. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1346574/Jogger-Thomas-Baker-shot-dead-unarmed-mugger-released-charge.html) You guys were spot on; he assumed his assailant was armed, he cleared 360 (covers the other kid while he ran away) and he called the police. The prosecutor was right to let this kid off without punishment.
I'm not saying that anybody was wrong here, but 8 shots seems to be an awfully strong response to being punched in the face.I guess law-abiding citizens will NO longer have too worry about this guy robbing them in the future.
Lesson learned for/by future thugs: "Don't go around punching and attempting too rob people jogging at night, you just might get more than you bargained for!"
Stay safe.
Peregrino
01-12-2011, 22:52
Wonder what he was using for a holster? Might be something useful there. :munchin
Tree Potato
01-13-2011, 00:06
Gentlemen,
First of all, good points. The decision to draw and shoot a gun at a human should always be a decision to kill, and the jogger was completely justified in making that decision upon being punched in the face.
Here's an article with a little more detail. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1346574/Jogger-Thomas-Baker-shot-dead-unarmed-mugger-released-charge.html) You guys were spot on; he assumed his assailant was armed, he cleared 360 (covers the other kid while he ran away) and he called the police. The prosecutor was right to let this kid off without punishment.
He certainly was justified; good on the prosecutor for not pressing charges.
Somewhat odd, though, that he chose to jog by himself after midnight with a load of cash, in Tampa. There will be debates in CCW circles about whether he put himself at risk to start with...sometimes a little SA might prevent getting into such a situation. But once there and attacked he did what he felt necessary to survive, and there's one less punk mugging people. I wish him well in working through the disruption in his life this will be.
As for the 8 shots, that he hit with 4 of them is better than average for a self-defense shooting. Anyone who thinks that's excessive must have missed the part that the attacker was still alive while waiting for the cops to arrive.
.......Somewhat odd, though, that he chose to jog by himself after midnight with a load of cash, in Tampa...........
Do you unload your wallet of cash and credit cards when you go for a run or bike ride? Or do you prefer to run with no ID?
Does it matter what time it was? What time is the allowed exercise time in your location? I have a friend trying to up his standing in bike racing - he starts riding at 3:30AM - because the traffic volume is lower and he can take longer rides through town.
And location? I know where the major areas are in my town for crime and I avoid them at night - but just about every morning I read about a crime that happened outside those areas.
I'd say the streets in that area are one punk safer - no matter what the punks mother says about him.
Wonder what he was using for a holster? Might be something useful there. :munchin
That's what I was thinking-always an aggravation in hot weather.
Personally, I think the state of Florida should make the deceased's parents pay to replace the shooter's ammunition...
The Perp's family will probably sue for damages, loss of companionship, lost income, environmental cruelty based on the loss of carbon credits, and PTSD..
:munchin
I'd say the streets in that area are one punk safer - no matter what the punks mother says about him.Hopefully, his 16y/o partner has seen the light....;)
Stay safe.
This incident happened in the Town & Country area which is essentially a working-middle class suburban area of incorporated Hillsborough County and although it has a Tampa address it is patrolled by the Sheriff's Department. I pass through on both Waters and Linebaugh Avenue on a regular basis and wouldn't hesitate for a moment to walk there at night. When it first went down the television press interviewed a number of the deceased friends and it was clear they were trying to make this out as an unprovoked murder. Good on the local DA for investigating it thoroughly and doing the right thing.
Oldrotorhead
01-13-2011, 08:58
Not at all excessive. Have to wonder which 4 missed their target - first 4? A good reminder of why it's nice to have decent clip capacity. Similar circumstances but with two assailants could have had a very different outcome.
Glad to see Mr. Baker's rights upheld.
-out
Maybe it is just me but 4 hits with 8 shots at night under stress, at least sightly injured isn't a bad response. His intended target is dead, he gets to go home and the state have found him not to have made a mistake. I would also guess he has little or no training, now he has the option to get more training. You can check almost any shooting by police, FBI, or civilian shooting any you may be surprised and the number of misses. There are probably people here that can do much better but even most military are doing well to get 50% hits in a close encounter.
:munchin
Maybe it is just me but 4 hits with 8 shots at night under stress, at least sightly injured isn't a bad response. His intended target is dead, he gets to go home and the state have found him not to have made a mistake. I would also guess he has little or no training, now he has the option to get more training. You can check almost any shooting by police, FBI, or civilian shooting any you may be surprised and the number of misses. There are probably people here that can do much better but even most military are doing well to get 50% hits in a close encounter. :munchin
Would you happen to have a link to that information (green)?
Oldrotorhead
01-13-2011, 09:07
Would you happen to have a link to that information (green)?
I will look and try to remember what I read. If I can find it I will come back with a link. If I can't confirm this I will apologize.
Good comment on that follow up article:
Liberal politicians worry about the rights of criminals because they are one of their main sources of support. They don't care about the average citizen because the average citizen won't vote for them. I wonder how this guy shot eight times and didn't take down the second mugger. But all in all he did a service for the community.
- lotusblos, Los Gatos, CA, USA, 13/1/2011 13:36
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1346574/Jogger-Thomas-Baker-shot-dead-unarmed-mugger-released-charge.html#ixzz1Avci7b6q
Oldrotorhead
01-13-2011, 09:24
Would you happen to have a link to that information (green)?
I do not have it in front of me but I believe I found it here.
On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
If this is not correct and you would like I will continue to look and try to remember the source.
I do not have it in front of me but I believe I found it here.
On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
If this is not correct and you would like I will continue to look and try to remember the source.
This guy?
http://www.killology.com/
Bio:
http://www.warriorsciencegroup.com/ltdg-biography/
He co-authored this book; is that where you got the stats?
http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200403/0743471822.htm?blurb
Kren of the Mitchegai
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Virtual-Reality Mercenaries of
A Boy and His Tank Face a New Menace
—and There's Nothing Virtual About It!
First, the involuntary colonists of New Kashubia rescued their planet from crushing debt by becoming virtual-reality mercenaries, then they successfully revolted against the oppressive government of Earth, but now they are menaced by the Mitchegai, a species whose biology has made them inherently evil. The carnivorous adults lay and abandon vast numbers of eggs, some of which grow into vegetarian juveniles, which are the adults' only food supply. Their culture has no family life, they eat only meat, have nothing like sex., and their main pleasures are gambling, art, and killing each other. They are an ancient civilization, millions of years old, with thousands of densely populated star systems in their realm. Lacking an immune system, they must completely sterilize any planet before they colonize it. The region of the galaxy they occupy is rapidly expanding . . . and Human Space is their next frontier!
Praise for Leo Frankowski and A Boy and His Tank
"When I teach science fiction, I use Frankowski's books as an example of how to do it right." —Gene Wolfe
". . . a literate military adventure laced with political allegory—and a great deal of fun." —Starlog
". . . the action is gripping, and there are plenty of novel twists and ironic moments." —Locus
"A blend of Keith Laumer's Bolos and David Drake's Slammers. . . ." —Science Fiction Chronicle
Oldrotorhead
01-13-2011, 10:03
Bio:
http://www.warriorsciencegroup.com/ltdg-biography/
Yes. I know I have read something else as well but I just don't remember what and where. FBI and police statistics are easier to find. I believe due to the much more limited encounters and the need of the legal system to squeeze every single detail from everything.
If I am wrong and you can show me better sources I'm open to learn.
Yes. I know I have read something else as well but I just don't remember what and where. FBI and police statistics are easier to find. I believe due to the much more limited encounters and the need of the legal system to squeeze every single detail from everything.
If I am wrong and you can show me better sources I'm open to learn.
Let me do my research. I need to read all four books in his "Boy and His Tank" scifi series before I get down to some serious stat quotin'.
Oldrotorhead
01-13-2011, 13:10
Let me do my research. I need to read all four books in his "Boy and His Tank" scifi series before I get down to some serious stat quotin'.
OK you win. My sources may be suspect. Just a couple of points then I will shut up. He also write SciFi. So what. You haven't questions that for a civilian he did OK, you don't question that police and FBI shooting , not always show, but often do not have 50% or better hits. With respect to the Military you could point out more accurate statistics if you have them. I'm not asking for classifies information or anything that violates opsec. I don't have a problem admitting that I may have made a mistake. I wasn't looking for an argument, my main point is that he did pretty well for a most likely untrained civilian. Could you compare him to Special Forces, SEALs or a good well trained SWAT team well no of course not.
PM if you like
Chris Cram
01-13-2011, 17:47
... There are probably people here that can do much better but even most military are doing well to get 50% hits in a close encounter.
:munchin
I would be interested in reading others thoughts on the content of these two documents.
http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html
U.S. Department of Justice
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA
July 14, 1989
Around Paragraph 37
“It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.”
But then we also have this one...
http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/what_happens_gunfight/index1.html
CLOSE ENCOUNTERS
For many years, we have been taught that armed confrontations occur at very close distances (often times at arm's length), that few shots are fired and the person involved usually misses. These statistics were compiled from the FBI's Officer Killed Summary, which are released on an annual basis.
Note that the operative word here is killed; these are officers that lost their confrontation. Have you ever wondered what happened with the officers that won? Did they do anything different to help ensure they would prevail?
In 1992, veteran police officer Dick Fairburn, now a trainer for the Illinois State Police, was commissioned by the Police Marksmen Association to answer this very question. Mr. Fairburn's original quest was to try and answer the stopping power debate of the time, in which he failed because the database of 241 shooting incidents was too small. However, what he did develop were some interesting trends that showed what officers did when they won the confrontation. One of the most interesting was the distances involved. While the FBI statistics show distances as being around ten feet, the PMA study showed the average distance being more like twenty. This makes sense, as distance will favor the person with the most training. This relates directly back to awareness as the sooner you see trouble coming, the more time you have to prepare for war. The PMA study also shows that the hit ratio per encounter was closer to 62 percent instead of the often-reported 18 percent.
I would be interested in reading others thoughts on the content of these two documents.
http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html
Around Paragraph 37
But then we also have this one...
http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/what_happens_gunfight/index1.html
......shooting first will get your gun fight off on the right foot as well. A standing ovation for Mr Baker.
More States need to implement the Justified, No Sue law...
OldRotorhead:
You may wish to look at investigations done in Iraq. Goes something like this "There were so many head shots there was a concern about executions occurring". That premise was proved wrong (exception of I think 2 cases) for many reasons but mainly:
1) Once you've experienced the fear enough (or rush) and disassociate yourself, you have more control over your motor skills.
2) Practice makes perfect. :cool:
Bet the mil stats are over 90% for SOF.
More States need to implement the Justified, No Sue law...
2) Practice makes perfect. :cool:
Better be practicing the correct techniques, then.:)
GrumpyMedic
01-14-2011, 16:33
The Perp's family will probably sue for damages, loss of companionship, lost income, environmental cruelty based on the loss of carbon credits, and PTSD..
:munchin
Scary part is they'll probably win too..
Grumpy
The Perp's family will probably sue for damages, loss of companionship, lost income, environmental cruelty based on the loss of carbon credits, and PTSD..
:munchin
I think we just entered the comedy zone....
http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=343151&postcount=1