View Full Version : Let's talk about Swift Boat Vets for Truth
Roguish Lawyer
08-23-2004, 17:16
Are they good or bad for Bush? Why?
http://www.swiftvets.com
Bad for Bush's campaign. He has probably been advised as such, as he condemed the ads after finding out that one of his advisors on veterans issues (Kenneth Cordier) was participating in the ads. KC was subsequently dismissed as advisor.
SBVFT is only relevant if they are acting out of concern about Kerry's leadership. But they have failed to make it appear so. At least half of the swing voters will be able to tell how personal the attack is, and that it is motivated by JKs testimony after his service, and the fact that SBVFT step up to the plate 36 years after it happened doesnt look good.
For more than thirty years, most Vietnam veterans kept silent as we were maligned as misfits, addicts, and baby killers. Now that a key creator of that poisonous image is seeking the Presidency we have resolved to end our silence.
WHY did they keep silent?
There is also still a question of how Bush's military time in Alabama and Texas air NG was spent. Although pay records have been accidentally destroyed, there is a microfilmed personnel file at the Texas State Library which Associated Press is suing Bush to see. Why doesnt the president just release the microfilm, so we can just get on with this?
My opinion, and worth what you paid for it.
NousDefionsDoc
08-23-2004, 18:47
Good, especially if there are no ties.
Sun Tzu - "Moving the Opponent About" and "Using Others to Create momentum". The Kerry Camp is doing nothing but responding to this. They have lost the initiative. They can't stay on message for trying to put out fires.
Classic SF strategy.
What I want to know is what Green Hats POTUS has in his campaign.:D
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 19:00
Was moveon.org good for Kerry, or bad for him? Where was Kerry when the compared POTUS to Hitler?
These ads are saying what the candidate can't say.
The candidate can deny it, decry it, and make counter-accusations, but the damage has already been done.
This is doubly effective, because Kerry made his service the centerpiece of his campaign. Self-inflicted (and delusional) gunshot wound there.
If he had run on his actions since he bacame a Senator, this would have been much less relevant and less damaging.
The ads have also played the next card, which is to remind people of Kerry's post-VN record, which is going to hurt him seriously with the vets who may have missed "The Forgotten Years" of Kerry's career.
This smear may cause thousands who would have stayed howm to come out and join the "Anybody But Kerry" bandwagon. Hope he likes his taste of that.
Finally, the SBVFTT and the ad have served as a rallying point, put some energy into the campaign, brought money in, and garnered millions in free ads on the major networks as they aied snippets of the ad campaign. POTUS can ignore the ads thill their damage and effectiveness is done, then deny them and cry foul.
Kerry is having to spend money he was saving, in order to counter allegations which are sticking, and bringing up an ugly period in his career.
What's not to like?
TR
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 19:08
Originally posted by pulque
WHY did they keep silent?
Because no one in Mass of any significance cared.
Originally posted by pulque
There is also still a question of how Bush's military time in Alabama and Texas air NG was spent. Although pay records have been accidentally destroyed, there is a microfilmed personnel file at the Texas State Library which Associated Press is suing Bush to see. Why doesnt the president just release the microfilm, so we can just get on with this?
If the Dems go after bush, ala Harkin's attack on Cheney, the POTUS needs to fire back hard and ask if they are equating NG service with draft dodging and cowardice.
Just my .02 as well.
TR
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Good, especially if there are no ties.
There are ties. Bush has already condemed the ad, saying Kerry served admirably.
I'm still holding out for the Truth.
In the meantime, one truth is that despite the polarization, the issues will still play a large part in the election.
Ambush Master
08-23-2004, 19:14
Originally posted by The Reaper
This is doubly effective, because Kerry made his service the centerpiece of his campaign. Self-inflicted (and delusional) gunshot wound there.
If he had run on his actions since he bacame a Senator, this would have been much less relevant and less damaging.
The ads have also played the next card, which is to remind people of Kerry's post-VN record, which is going to hurt him seriously with the vets who may have missed "The Forgotten Years" of Kerry's career.
What's not to like?
TR
Exactly !!! Kerry was trying to get the focus away from his EXTREMELY lackluster and OVERTLY LIBERAL years in the Senate. He succeeded, but at a much higher price than I think his handlers are willing to pay !!!
I still would like to know not how many green hats were involved, but how much Klintoon involvement there IS !!! They know that they can only succeed if they pull the rug out from under Scary !!!
Later
Martin
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 19:22
Originally posted by pulque
There are ties.
In the meantime, one truth is that despite the polarization, the issues will still play a large part in the election.
1. I'm not seeing anything other than one staffer being a member of both organizations. You think no one on Kerry's campaign has a link to moveon.org?
2. In this campaign (as in the last), a few hundred votes in the right state can make the difference between being President of the U.S., and a has been. Ask AlGore if he would have liked to have had a few hundred gun owners votes in 2000.
TR
Because no one in Mass of any significance cared.
If we are just conversating here, I dont think thats a good reason sir. If an issue is important, as this is, waiting until somebody cares is an exercise in futility. Perhaps it is a purely democratic value that significance is created?
If the Dems go after bush, ala Harkin's attack on Cheney, the POTUS needs to fire back hard and ask if they are equating NG service with draft dodging and cowardice.
Yeah. Though unlike this Kerry v. SBVFT debacle where there are hundreds of witnesses, not one person can corroborate that the POTUS served during 1972-1973 and was not in fact AWOL. In my uneducated opinion, AWOL is equated to draft dodging and cowardice.
Adam White
08-23-2004, 19:26
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
...They can't stay on message for trying to put out fires.
I am honestly still trying to figure out what their message is - or if they even have one. Kerry seems to have carefully avoided alienating any possible voter by sidestepping the issues. He seems to have hoped to ride on the "anybody but Bush" mentality.
In a way, this SBVFT thing has allowed the DNC to avoid questions about any real - current - issues.
Also - do any of you smart types know why a connection to the SBVFT would be considered illegal for the Republican Campaign, yet the DNC was able to invite Michael Moore to their convention - seating him next to a former president? How exactly is the law worded?
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 19:30
Originally posted by pulque
If we are just conversating here, I dont think thats a good reason sir. If an issue is important, as this is, waiting until somebody cares is an exercise in futility. Perhaps it is a purely democratic value that significance is created?
Did you see the conference the SWVFT had six months ago? Neither did anyone else outside the room. The media and the ads are making this visible.
Originally posted by pulque
Yeah. Though unlike this Kerry v. SBVFT debacle where there are hundreds of witnesses, not one person can corroborate that the POTUS served during 1972-1973 and was not in fact AWOL. In my uneducated opinion, AWOL is equated to draft dodging and cowardice.
Good thing you are not running. Not going to drill for a few months or being absent from your place of duty (allegedly) is wrong and stupid, but does not equal draft dodging and cowardice, IMHO. It is not like he ran away to England, Russia, or Canada, for example.
Frankly, pulque, the ads are not aimed at you. They are aimed at the undecided/leaning Independent voter, especially vets.
The real message is the ad that is out now, and the anticipated next one.
TR
Pulque: This is one time I have to say: "You weren't there"
There were two main groups of vets -- other than those who stayed on active duty. The first group, the majority had to go to work and support families. Even so they bore disapproval and abuse. They remained silent, at the time, out of necessity. They had jobs and families unlike the second group.
The second group were whiners, dressed in smelly fatigues, covered with pins, patches and bedecked in beads atc. They merely reionforced the pre-conceived notion of the screwed up GI's.
Speak out? Believe me I did when the occasion arose. Children of my children's generation believed that "Platoon" was the real deal. I had long talks telling my children that no doper was ever allowed in a compound where I was. We would not trust our lives to dopers and boozers.
I can't find the impromptu words to do justice to my thoughts. Whether Kerry or Bush had admirable records doesn't mean a rat's behind to me. However I spent 3 1/2 years in SEA and never raped a girl, killed a child or cut off ears. We did what had to be done but attrocities weren't on the menu.
Kerry owes 2 1/2 million veterans of Vietnam a SINCERE apology.
Sorry for the rant but I have very strong feelings on the issue. I have been spit upon and called names by the Likes of Kerry.
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 19:32
Originally posted by Adam White
Also - do any of you smart types know why a connection to the SBVFT would be considered illegal for the Republican Campaign, yet the DNC was able to invite Michael Moore to their convention - seating him next to a former president? How exactly is the law worded?
It doesn't matter.
It only matters if the media thinks it is unfair, and calls foul, publicly.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
08-23-2004, 19:32
AW:
I am going to allow AL to answer your question, as I don't want to encroach on his AO.
But I wanted to tell you that I believe that Fort Walton Beach must have the largest concentration of Tattoo/Piercing shops I have ever seen -- and I live not far from Hollywood!!!
RL
Originally posted by The Reaper
It doesn't matter.
It only matters if the media thinks it is unfair, and calls foul, publicly.
TR
Bush fired him. Bush fired the man because somebody in the media thought it was unfair?
As always, I appreciate what you have to say on the matter QRQ 30.
There were two main groups of vets -- other than those who stayed on active duty.
It sounds like two very hostile sub-groups.
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 19:49
Originally posted by pulque
Bush fired him. Bush fired the man because somebody in the media thought it was unfair?
I doubt if the POTUS hired, or fired the individual in question.
Did you know that a Bush campaign worker was a member of SWVFT before you saw it in the news?
I doubt if the campaign runs a TS background check on every prospective employee.
TR
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 19:51
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
But I wanted to tell you that I believe that Fort Walton Beach must have the largest concentration of Tattoo/Piercing shops I have ever seen -- and I live not far from Hollywood!!!
RL
Hey, hijacker, FWB is a VERY big Spring/Fall Break destination.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
08-23-2004, 19:53
Originally posted by pulque
Bush fired him. Bush fired the man because somebody in the media thought it was unfair?
:rolleyes:
The campaign needs to eliminate any hint of a connection between it and the vets group; otherwise it could be found to have violated some campaign finance laws, or at least there could be a lot of bad press so suggesting.
It doesn't matter of there is not real "connection" as a practical matter -- i.e., if the guy is just coincidentally a member of the two organizations and not involved in any coordination activities. He needed to go just to torpedo the issue before it became a problem.
I don't believe for a second that there is coordination going on here. On the other hand, I do believe it is happening on the Kerry side, but we see no reporting of it.
Originally posted by The Reaper I doubt if the POTUS hired, or fired the individual in question.
Do you think the POTUS is unaware of Kenneth Cordier's situation?
However, you have shown me that it is important to decide carefully what should be considered about the candidates, including movies and ads.
Did you know that a Bush campaign worker was a member of SWVFT before you saw it in the news?
negative. I rely on news for information. but I also read forums and web journals to gain perspectives on information.
ghuinness
08-23-2004, 20:11
Just to add my .02
I follow the money:
MoveOn.org (http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527events.asp?orgid=41)
SwiftBoatVets (http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527events.asp?orgid=61)
Top individual contributors to 527 orgs (http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527indivs.asp?cycle=2004)
Cash at hand (http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/stats.asp?cycle=2004)
Don't see a direct connection between RNC and SBVFT. I do see a direct connection between DNC and MoveOn.org. Money talks.
Ambush Master
08-23-2004, 20:14
Originally posted by QRQ 30
Pulque: This is one time I have to say: "You weren't there"
Kerry owes 2 1/2 million veterans of Vietnam a SINCERE apology.
I have been spit upon and called names by the Likes of Kerry.
I totally concur !!!
Kerry not only owes us, but this country an explanation !! Did he, as he admitted during Congressional Testimony commit WAR CRIMES ??? Or did he SIMPLY tell a LIE !!!
Did he "Aid and Abet" the ENEMY with his testimony ?? Therefore making him TREASONOUS and an enemy himself, or did he simply TELL A LIE ???
Any answer, positive or negative, to any of the above does not make for a pretty picture for a Negative to the FIRST MANDATES a Positive to the next etc !!
Based on what this guy has been spewing, I do not believer that he nor his handlers can quell the questions that are arising, and will continue to arise !!
pulque,
You had better tread lightly on this ground, for you truly do not comprehend with whom you are engaging !!!
Adam White
08-23-2004, 20:23
Originally posted by The Reaper
Hey, hijacker, FWB is a VERY big Spring/Fall Break destination.
TR
Between that, the neverending influx of young Airmen with too much free time on their hands, and a rather significant population of bikers - they seem to do quite well.
I am getting dangerously close to 30 and still haven't found a need to decorate myself in such a way - seems like a waste of beer / ammo / gas money to me.
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 20:31
Originally posted by pulque
Do you think the POTUS is unaware of Kenneth Cordier's situation?
Frankly, prior to this, I would not have expected the POTUS to be able to pick him out of a line-up, much less know the details of his affiliations.
Do you think Michael Moore is a Kerry supporter?
ghuinness:
DAYUM!!
ONE of the top 25 donors is a Repub, and he is not even in the top nine.
So much for the party of the common man.
TR
Originally posted by The Reaper Frankly, prior to this, I would not have expected the POTUS to be able to pick him out of a line-up, much less know the details of his affiliations.
Sorry for not being clear - I'm asking about after-the-fact. My original statement was that there are ties. I stand by that. Conspiracies bore me.
Do you think Michael Moore is a Kerry supporter?
I know he has lost some fans because of the perception that he is a Kerry supporter.
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 20:41
Looked scary till I got to here.
Look what was buried in the Total Cash on Hand line:
Presidential Race:
................Total Raised .......... Total Cash on Hand
All ........... $582,430,013 ........ $151,739,491
Dems ....... $351,717,262 ......... $40,958,599
Repubs ..... $228,743,338 ........ $110,435,980
Based on data released by the FEC on Wednesday, August 18, 2004.
Looks like the Dems are spending money against the SWVFT ads they cannot afford.
Time for the Dems to try to raise some more money, quickly.
I look forward to seeing the numbers after the Republican National Convention.
TR
You had better tread lightly on this ground, for you truly do not comprehend with whom you are engaging !!!
AM, received and understood.
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 21:06
Originally posted by pulque
Sorry for not being clear - I'm asking about after-the-fact. My original statement was that there are ties. I stand by that. Conspiracies bore me.
I know he has lost some fans because of the perception that he is a Kerry supporter.
I think that you are wrong on the first count, and nothing personal, but if you really believe the denials of your second statement, you are one of the stupidest people I have ever argued with.
Perception that he is a Kerry supporter? That fat bastard made a propaganda film rivaling Goebbels' finest to help unseat a sitting President in wartime.
John Kerry has desecrated the honor of American servicemembers, stole honor from a checkered four month performance in Vietnam, was present at an assassination plot against elected representatives of this country, aided and abetted an enemy of the United States, voted against the military and military funding at every opportunity, and in general, been about as far from being a leader of this country as I can imagine.
I saw a former anti-war demonstrator bragging the other day about how many servicemembers' lives they saved. They literally caused the deaths of thousands of Americans by providing aid and comfort to the NVA. The NVA knew once popular opinion changed, that they could win a war of attrition. The media was complicit in this, making major efforts to portray the war in the worst light possible, like the "debacle" of Tet. Actually, we eliminated the PAVN during the Tet Offensive (actually, a violation of a ceasefire they negotiated). In the end, the NVA killed hundreds of thousands of their own people in concentration camps they established after winning the war. And thousands of VN vets have taken their own lives after being lied about, rejected, and spit on upon their return. The question should be, "How many of his fellow vets has he really killed?"
Kerry is a member of that gang. Blood is on his hands, and I have no respect for him. Should he be elected, I will leave the military rather than work for that sorry piece of offal. Then you can step up and defend it for a while.
Have a very SF day.
TR
Edited to correct typos.
I think the "He-Said"; "He-Said", elements are going to hit a saturation level, when the the "Crime Scene Investigation-SW ASIA" fasination, finally wears off the public's awareness. And, those not ensconced in the respective party camps, will call it a "push".
But what the SBVFT's ads may accomplish is nullifying the , "John Kerry, Reporting for Duty" DNC strategy, replacing it with, "What the Hell are We going to do now?" scrambling.
That reforming will be reactionary, and will be internally contentious to the DNC, causing more confusion on how to paint Kerry.
I also found intresting how such a small market ad was such a force multplier, once the poll numbers came into Kerry HQ, compelling some type of reaction. Shows how those polls drive the campaign decisions.
Kerry's Clan could have choosen to ignore the small market ad entirely, but those poll number shook their faith. That was an error on their part. Now that President Bush has called for an halt -- The Dems are left with whining and hand wringing.....
Originally posted by The Reaper
I think that you are wrong on the first count, and nothing personal, but if you really believe the denials of your second statement, you are one of the stupidest people I have ever argued with.
Perception that he is a Kerry supporter? That fat bastard made a propaganda film rivaling Goebbels' finest to help unseat a sitting President in wartime.
In my experience, Michael Moore has lost some fans of left lean because of the perception that he is a Kerry supporter.
I know that the ads are not aimed at me. In fact, there is no need for me to participate in this discussion any longer.
Should he be elected, I will leave the military rather than work for that sorry piece of offal.
Ive been wondering about that.
Have the most SFingest day that you wish to, Sir.
Ambush Master
08-23-2004, 21:20
Originally posted by Ambush Master
To pulque:
You had better tread lightly on this ground, for you truly do not comprehend with whom you are engaging !!!
Too LATE !!!:munchin
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 21:30
Originally posted by pulque
In my experience, Michael Moore has lost some fans of left lean because of the perception that he is a Kerry supporter.
Do you think the rest of the public "perceives" him to be a Bush supporter?
TR
Airbornelawyer
08-23-2004, 21:31
Originally posted by pulque
Bad for Bush's campaign. He has probably been advised as such, as he condemed the ads after finding out that one of his advisors on veterans issues (Kenneth Cordier) was participating in the ads. KC was subsequently dismissed as advisor. I am fast approaching real anger on this and similar issues. Please endeavor to ascertain the facts before regurgitating someone's spin.
The guy who's "one of his advisors on veterans issues" is Col. Kenneth Cordier, USAF, Ret'd. When Kerry was flitting to Paris to meet with North Vietnamese and VC negotiators and joining up with Vietnam Veterans Against the War, where he helped push the fraudulent Winter Soldier Investigation, the source of much of his Congressional testimony calling US soldiers war criminals, Cordier was moving from camp to camp, including his second stint in the Hanoi Hilton. Cordier was released in 1973. One of Kerry's antiwar comrades had this to say:"Tortured men do not march smartly off planes, salute the flag, and kiss their wives. They are liars. I also want to say that these men are not heroes."
Cordier was appointed to the Advisory Committee on Former Prisoners of War by the Secretary of Veterans Affairs pursuant to 38 US Code 541 in 2002. He was also recently named a member of Bush-Cheney ‘04's National Steering Committee for veterans issues. It was the latter post from which he was asked to leave, because of fears that the Democrats would use that connection to continue the smear of SVFT as a Bush-Cheney front.
For Col. Cordier's reputation to have been tarnished by this smear campaign, while scum like Moore live it up at the Democratic convention, is disgusting. I have much more to say on this topic, but I will refrain until my BP goes down.
Thank you for the biographical information of Col. Kenneth Cordier, USAF, Ret'd.
I must bid goodnight to all. A difference of opinion is no need for excess annoyance, or so I hope.
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 21:44
pulque, would you like a larger shovel?
TR
Ambush Master
08-23-2004, 21:47
Originally posted by pulque
Originally posted by The Reaper
In my experience, Michael Moore has lost some fans of left lean because of the perception that he is a Kerry supporter.
I know that the ads are not aimed at me. In fact, there is no need for me to participate in this discussion any longer.
Ive been wondering about that.
Have the most SFingest day that you wish to, Sir.
So out into the middle of the MINEFIELD you run and show the obvious !!!
I stated: "You had better tread lightly on this ground, for you truly do not comprehend with whom you are engaging !!! "
Your response:
" AM, received and understood."
Now .......................WTFO ???
Obviously NOT !!!
You are hopeless !!!
I close with your latest quote:
I must bid goodnight to all. A difference of opinion is no need for excess annoyance, or so I hope.
All that I can say is WRONG !!!!
The Reaper
08-23-2004, 21:51
Originally posted by pulque
Thank you for the biographical information of Col. Kenneth Cordier, USAF, Ret'd.
I must bid goodnight to all. A difference of opinion is no need for excess annoyance, or so I hope.
Someone who wants to front a party line and be a tool in a hostile area should at least do a little unbiased research first.
Situational awareness and intel prep? Zero points.
Cutting and running already? Probably your best move tonight.
TR
Sacamuelas
08-23-2004, 21:53
I voted... It is helpful to President Bush.
What states are the Swift ads running in? I don't get them in my state, but the Pensacola,FL station that I get on cable has them. ALONG with an incredible amount of the media fund anti-bush commercials running.
I was wondering why my soapbox was getting smaller and smaller.
pulque: 0 points
Originally posted by The Reaper
Someone who wants to front a party line and be a tool in a hostile area should at least do a little unbiased research first.
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
What states are the Swift ads running in?
The orginal ad was broadcast in small TV markets in, Ohio, Wisconsin and West Virginia. There is a second ad, using Kerry's own 1971 testimony before Congress that is set to run in Pennsylvania, New Mexico and Nevada.
The National Annenberg Election Survey found that nearly 6 in 10 of those surveyed has seen or heard the first SBVFT ad. Cable TV and Radio re-plays boosted the exposure of the ad beyond any expectations.
Airbornelawyer
08-24-2004, 10:43
National Steering Committees are advisory bodies to the campaign. Frankly, they are more useful for their PR value than as operating bodies. Individual members, though, may have a more active role (for example, steering member Col. Joe Acinapura is Chairman of the Vermont Republican State Committee). Because it is about PR, Col. Cordier was apparently sacrificed to avoid the inevitable media spin.
The National Steering Committee for Veterans has some 60 members, ranging from sergeants to generals, and including veterans of World War Two, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and the War on Terror. It includes disabled veterans, Medal of Honor winners and, even without Col. Cordier, former POWs. For those here with a more SOF frame of mind, it includes former top SEAL RADM George Worthington and CMOH Winner Col. Roger Donlon.
The link below is to a list from when the Steering Committee was announced with brief bios. It also includes a list of the 48 "Medal of Honor Recipients for Bush-Cheney '04".
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/bush/bushorgvet.html
In the interests of objectivity I should note that the Kerry campaign might be able to produce similar lists, though I can't find any on johnkerry.com. There is an open letter from eight retired generals attacking the redeployment plan, though. The veterans page has a list of "Veterans for Kerry-Edwards State Coordinators", but these are party activists and there are only e-mail addresses. That would be a step below a steering committee (the Bush campaign also has state veterans coordinators).
There are plenty of websites along the lines of "Veterans for Bush", "Veterans Against Bush" and "Veterans Against Kerry", though, oddly, hardly any "Veterans for Kerry" (www.vets4kerry.com and www.vetsforkerry.com redirect you to the Kerry campaign website). Most of these websites, though, are likely just a small number of grassroots activists. Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry, for example, is mainly the work of A-363 Mike Force vet and POW/MIA activist Ted Sampley and two other vets.
brownapple
08-24-2004, 11:32
I think it is great for Bush. Kerry is self-destructing over the SBVFT.
Roguish Lawyer
08-24-2004, 12:46
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX TUE AUG 24, 2004 11:09:31 ET XXXXX
KERRY PHONES SWIFT BOAT FOES
**World Exclusive**
Dem presidential hopeful John Kerry personally phoned anti-Kerry swift boat vets, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.
Kerry reached out to Robert "Friar Tuck" Brant Cdr., USN (RET) Sunday night, just hours after former Sen. Bob Dole publicly challenged Kerry to apologize to veterans.
Brant was skipper of the #96 and # 36 boat and spent time with Kerry in An Thoi. Kerry and Brant slept in the same quarters, and Brant used to put Kerry back to bed at night when Kerry was sleepwalking.
Brant received a call from Kerry at his home in Virginia while he was watching the Olympics on TV.
The call lasted 10 minutes, sources tell DRUDGE.
KERRY: "Why are all these swift boat guys opposed to me?"
BRANT: "You should know what you said when you came back, the impact it had on the young sailors and how it was disrespectful of our guys that were killed over there."
[Brant had two men killed in battle.]
KERRY: "When we dedicated swift boat one in '92, I said to all the swift guys that I wasn't talking about the swifties, I was talking about all the rest of the veterans."
Kerry then asked if he could meet Brant ["You were one of the best"] -- man to man -- face to face.
Brant declined the invite, explaining that Kerry was obviously not prepared to correct the record on exactly what happened during Vietnam and what happened when Kerry came back.
Developing...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Filed By Matt Drudge
Reports are moved when circumstances warrant
http://www.drudgereport.com for updates
Roguish Lawyer
08-24-2004, 13:14
Thank you for supporting Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
Your credit card has been charged: $50.00.
:D :lifter
Bravo1-3
08-25-2004, 00:04
While the good Col. did indeed belong to SBVFT and was removed from his post in the campaign:
The Kerry campaigns electronic communications are run by the former Director of "Special Projects" for MoveOn.org.
At least one of Kerrys staffers (a former Clinton staffer) owns and operates his own 527 group. There is at least one offier with "The Media Fund" that also works for the Kerry Campaign. I will research the names in question.
Media Fund, one of the top 527 for liberals, is headed by Harold M. Ickes. jr.
Media Fund rasied 28.1 million
Ickes was Deputy White House COS for Clinton. Ickes was also Hillery's chief carpetbagger for Her Senate campaign. Bill Knapp is in Charge of Media Fund's Ads. Knapp was Al Gore's advertisment guy.
According to www.openscrets.org , 527s have tallied the following numbers for the US presidentail race.
Dems: $469.727.076
Repubs: $243,656,202
Total spent
Dems: $346,347,201
Repubs: $207,994,857
Airbornelawyer
08-25-2004, 09:59
I would be curious to see a study of ad spending by region and date by MoveOn.org, the Media Fund and other anti-Bush groups. It seems to be a pattern that when the Kerry campaign cuts back ads to save money, the leftist and liberal 527s fill the gap. Then they cut back when Kerry's campaign gears up to target a market.
I suppose the Kerry campaign may sincerely believe that the Swifties are working for the Bush campaign, since they no doubt believe that MoveOn and the others are working for them.
With the attention being paid to 527 spending, I haven't seen much on the old-style issue ads. So-called 527s actually favor a candidate; they are just not supposed to coordinate with the official campaign. But in previous election cycles we have seen the influence of issue-oriented groups who do not advocate for a candidate, but for an issue (which often just happens to help a particular candidate). This was always a Democratic edge over the GOP. Although the issue groups run the political spectrum, (the NRA is a particularly big one), the big winners are the Democrats, through spending by groups like the AFL/CIO and NAACP. Remember the notorious NAACP anti-Bush ad from 2000: "It was like they lynched my father again"?
Rather than start a new thread: link (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-smith20dec20,0,7684956.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail)
Found these numbers elsewhere:
"
The Swift Boat group was fined $299,500,
the MoveOn group $150,000 and the
League of Conservation Voters group $180,000.
The Swift Boat group said that it had ended its 527 group"
"LAST WEEK, the Federal Election Commission fined MoveOn.org, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and two other groups a total of $629,500 for violating campaign finance laws during the 2004 election. According to the FEC, these "527" organizations (so named for the tax code provision governing their activities) ought to have registered as political action committees, which would have limited their ability to receive large donations and, in the case of MoveOn and the Swifties, would probably have shut both groups out of the 2004 election altogether..........
What did the groups really do wrong? Did they bribe or corrupt politicians? Well, no. You won't find "Duke" Cunningham, William Jefferson or Bob Ney connected to MoveOn or the Swift Boat Veterans. Did they make illegal contributions to campaigns? Well, no again. Did they seek out special favors or illegally coordinate their efforts with candidates? No. The FEC admitted that, after a "thorough" investigation, it found no evidence that any of the groups operated in concert with candidates or sought legislative favors"
Thank Mc-Lame for this abortion.
And he wants to be pres.
Dang, NC is so far down in the primary schedule.
Kyobanim
12-23-2006, 07:07
I don't keep up with political stuff because I don't feel like monitoring a bunch of theives but, evidently, they broke the rules.
According to the FEC, these "527" organizations (so named for the tax code provision governing their activities) ought to have registered as political action committees, which would have limited their ability to receive large donations and, in the case of MoveOn and the Swifties, would probably have shut both groups out of the 2004 election altogether.
If you don't like the rules you change them, not break them. Simple as that.
I don't keep up with political stuff because I don't feel like monitoring a bunch of theives but, evidently, they broke the rules.
If you don't like the rules you change them, not break them. Simple as that.
Were the Swifties as PAC? That was the question. In Fayeteville during the run-up to the election you could see moveon.org people/stickers/propaganda at the Democrat table during 4th Fridays and other events downtown. That is a clear violation of the 527 rule.
Does speaking out against a candidate make you and your fellows a PAC? I would think not but politicians and judges will now make that call. If I get my neighbors together to oppose a city council candidate are we a PAC? Are the people with the "No Dump Here" signs a PAC? Is political speach now required to be under PAC rules?
Free Speach took a hit with Campaign Finance "Reform" and will take more in the near future. Grass Roots organizations will be slammed. Talk radio is next on the hit list. Internet after that.
Pete
Kyobanim
12-23-2006, 07:56
I don't know, but I think it's got something to do with the way money is collected.
I'm not for or against any group, I really don't care. I'm just pointing out the obvious. There's rules and people got to follow them.
NousDefionsDoc
12-23-2006, 10:15
Kyo,
I could be wrong, but I don't believe the SBVFT actually broke any laws - or at least not anything major. I believe they are being punished in the interest of fairness to the other side and because they exerted influence. Fairness? I believe that moveon did violate the rules and the FEC is doing this to have one on each side and they picked SBVFT because they were influential.
This has nothing to do with rules or right and wrong - it has to do with politics.
Kerry could have ended the SBVFT by releasing his records. He still hasn't.
You have to remember the mindset of these people. They still believe in foco and propaganda of the deed. They believe that everyone really wants to vote for their socialist assclown and when they don't, there is a root cause - deceit, treachery, etc. And they believe that they are chosen to lead the masses to enlightenment, whether the masses want it or not - by any means necessary.
Kyobanim
12-23-2006, 10:31
It is just campaign contribution rules. If it was politics I doubt that it would have fined pubs and dems together. My opinion is, I don't really give a shit about any group that has an agenda. I'd rather look into the facts myself without all the extra noise.
I really don't know. Like I've said in the past, I don't pay attention to ads and PACs; if I paid attention to all these groups I'd never be able to make a decision. :)
Ret10Echo
11-16-2007, 15:58
Yes, this is a serious necro-post, but why start another thread when the vintage of this one is just superior...:D
John who? :confused:
Kerry Vows to Disprove Swift Boat Claims
Friday, November 16, 2007
BOSTON - Sen. John Kerry, whose 2004 presidential campaign was torpedoed by critics of his Vietnam War record, said Friday he has personally accepted a Texas oilman's offer to pay $1 million to anyone who can disprove even a single charge of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
In a letter to T. Boone Pickens, the Massachusetts Democrat wrote: "While I am prepared to show they lied on allegation after allegation, you have generously offered to pay one million dollars for just one thing that can be proven false. I am prepared to prove the lie beyond any reasonable doubt."
Kerry, a Navy veteran and former prosecutor, said he was willing to present his case directly to Pickens, who provided $3 million to bankroll the group during Kerry's race against President Bush.
Kerry said he would donate any proceeds to the Paralyzed Veterans of America.
The senator said Pickens issued the challenge Nov. 6 in Washington, while serving as chairman of a 40th anniversary gala for American Spectator magazine.
In the letter, Kerry offered to travel to Dallas to meet with Pickens in a public forum or to invite him to come to Massachusetts. He suggested the two could visit the Paralyzed Veterans of America in Norwood to see firsthand how Pickens' money could be used to help veterans. A copy of the letter was provided to The Associated Press.
Pickens spokesman Jay Rosser asked to review the letter before commenting.
First in the book "Unfit for Command," and then in a series of television commercials, Kerry's critics challenged the circumstances for his military awards, accused him of doctoring reports and argued he never traveled into Cambodia as claimed.
While fellow veterans and reporters disproved many of the group's claims at the time, Kerry refused to air ads responding to the criticism. His own response was muted for fear of legitimizing his critics' attacks. The senator conceded after losing to Bush that his lackluster response likely cost him the election.
Ever since, Kerry has worked to lay the criticisms to rest.
In May 2005, he began allowing reporters access to his full Navy personnel and medical records - something he refused to do during the campaign.
Those records mostly duplicated documents Kerry released during the 2004 campaign. In addition, they included numerous commendations from commanders who criticized Kerry's service during the presidential race.
That disclosure renewed questions about why Kerry did not respond more forcefully with control over the White House at stake.
Kerry decided against launching a second bid for president, but vowed to defend his record and prevent other candidates from being "Swift-boated."
In his letter to Pickens, the senator challenged the billionaire's honor.
"I trust that you are a man of your word, having made a very public challenge at a major Washington dinner, and look forward to taking you up on this challenge," Kerry wrote.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Team Sergeant
11-16-2007, 17:28
I saw this too and it would be a mistake to take him up on this if Mr. Pickens is the only one kerry will present to....
I don't know if Mr. Pickens was ever in the military and if not kerry needs to convince a jury of Vietnam Navy Peers and not just Mr. Pickens.
From what I understand kerry has still not allowed full disclosure of his military records....... I'd sure like to talk to the Green Beret he "rescued".....:rolleyes:
TS
Yes, this is a serious necro-post, but why start another thread when the vintage of this one is just superior...:D
John who? :confused:
Kerry Vows to Disprove Swift Boat Claims
Friday, November 16, 2007
BOSTON - Sen. John Kerry, whose 2004 presidential campaign was torpedoed by critics of his Vietnam War record, said Friday he has personally accepted a Texas oilman's offer to pay $1 million to anyone who can disprove even a single charge of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
In a letter to T. Boone Pickens, the Massachusetts Democrat wrote: "While I am prepared to show they lied on allegation after allegation, you have generously offered to pay one million dollars for just one thing that can be proven false. I am prepared to prove the lie beyond any reasonable doubt."
Kerry, a Navy veteran and former prosecutor, said he was willing to present his case directly to Pickens, who provided $3 million to bankroll the group during Kerry's race against President Bush.
Kerry said he would donate any proceeds to the Paralyzed Veterans of America.
The senator said Pickens issued the challenge Nov. 6 in Washington, while serving as chairman of a 40th anniversary gala for American Spectator magazine.
In the letter, Kerry offered to travel to Dallas to meet with Pickens in a public forum or to invite him to come to Massachusetts. He suggested the two could visit the Paralyzed Veterans of America in Norwood to see firsthand how Pickens' money could be used to help veterans. A copy of the letter was provided to The Associated Press.
Pickens spokesman Jay Rosser asked to review the letter before commenting.
First in the book "Unfit for Command," and then in a series of television commercials, Kerry's critics challenged the circumstances for his military awards, accused him of doctoring reports and argued he never traveled into Cambodia as claimed.
While fellow veterans and reporters disproved many of the group's claims at the time, Kerry refused to air ads responding to the criticism. His own response was muted for fear of legitimizing his critics' attacks. The senator conceded after losing to Bush that his lackluster response likely cost him the election.
Ever since, Kerry has worked to lay the criticisms to rest.
In May 2005, he began allowing reporters access to his full Navy personnel and medical records - something he refused to do during the campaign.
Those records mostly duplicated documents Kerry released during the 2004 campaign. In addition, they included numerous commendations from commanders who criticized Kerry's service during the presidential race.
That disclosure renewed questions about why Kerry did not respond more forcefully with control over the White House at stake.
Kerry decided against launching a second bid for president, but vowed to defend his record and prevent other candidates from being "Swift-boated."
In his letter to Pickens, the senator challenged the billionaire's honor.
"I trust that you are a man of your word, having made a very public challenge at a major Washington dinner, and look forward to taking you up on this challenge," Kerry wrote.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
brownapple
11-17-2007, 13:24
I find it interesting that this issue about 527s vs. PACs sounds very much like the efforts by the Federalists to control the various "Democratic Committees" of the 1780s.