View Full Version : As Mexico drug violence runs rampant, U.S. guns tied to crime south of border
Justice Breyer spews his 2nd Amendment bile, then this 5 pages of bile....when is Illinois Anti-Gun Zealot Andy Traver taking over the ATF?
No other state has produced more guns seized by police in the brutal Mexican drug wars than Texas. In the Lone Star State, no other city has more guns linked to Mexican crime scenes than Houston. And in the Texas oil town, no single independent dealer stands out more for selling guns traced from south of the border than Bill Carter.
Carter, 76, has operated four Carter's Country stores in the Houston metropolitan area over the past half-century. In the past two years, more than 115 guns from his stores have been seized by the police and military in Mexico
Notice there is no mention on what Country produced the most weapons used and seized....
ATF disagreed, saying the biggest factors are the high number of dealers along the border and the convenient location.
We probably need less dealers to make the ATF's job easier
Guns from the United States "have been feeding the violence and overwhelming firepower being unleashed by drug traffickers," said Arturo Sarukhan, Mexico's ambassador to the United States. "We need to defang drug trafficking organizations of these high-caliber and semiautomatic and automatic weapons, and we need to do it now."
I wonder if Bill Carter supplies the Mexican NARCO State with hand grenades and ComBloc RPG's from his store as well......:rolleyes:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/12/AR2010121202663.html
CombatMuffin
12-13-2010, 09:40
I just saw this on the news as well, on cnn and the source you mentioned.
I hate pointing fingers on these kinds of matters, but this one of the downsides to the Second Amendment. Trying to be as unbiased as I can here, but blaming Bill Carter blindly would be a mistake, I think.
Sure, his stores sell the most guns that have been seized, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is in on the business, though if I were a law abiding citizen, in a job that distributes such merchandise, I'd be making sure I am selling to the right people.
The guns were most likely sold legally, but when you have as much buying power as these Cartels infesting the border and Mexico, they have a lot of options on how to acquire them.
http://mexico.cnn.com/media/2010/12/13/armas.jpg (Decomissioned Gun Pic)
Its no surprise what's in that picture, and I've read on past news that they have better equipment (40mm grenade launchers, M82's and who knows what other trinkets).
Now, I am not familiar with Texas Gun control laws, or Federal laws for that matter, but isn't there any regulation on the high caliber guns, such as inspections, to see that those guns are still in the right hands? Or would that be considered a breach of privacy?
It just seems impractical to me, that suddenly a surge of light machine guns is purchased, and no one knows where they end up :confused:
Surgicalcric
12-13-2010, 10:29
...this one of the downsides to the Second Amendment.
There is NO downside to the second amendment.
Dont confuse the issue of our security as a nation and the lawlessness of others. This is a continued effort by the left to disarm America.
Crip
Irishsquid
12-13-2010, 10:33
Now, I am not familiar with Texas Gun control laws, or Federal laws for that matter, but isn't there any regulation on the high caliber guns, such as inspections, to see that those guns are still in the right hands? Or would that be considered a breach of privacy?
It just seems impractical to me, that suddenly a surge of light machine guns is purchased, and no one knows where they end up :confused:
Doesn't work that way...at least not with legally purchased firearms. Any military caliber above .50 is considered a "Destructive Device," under the Gun Control Act of 1968, and can only be sold to A) a government agency, B) A "special Occupational Taxpayer," or C) a person with an approved Form 4, with $200.00 tax stamp affixed. Yes, these weapons are tracked and controlled. A light machine gun would fall into the "Machine guns," category of Title II weapons, subject to exactly the same restrictions.
I'll strongly argue, though, that even those restrictions should be done away with. I don't care if the Mexicans want to buy guns to kill each other with. It's when the violence crosses the border that I have a problem...and the best solution to that problem is a well-armed, well-trained populace.
The Reaper
12-13-2010, 10:42
This is a Coalition to Stop Gun Violence/BATFE planted story.
The fact is that the majority of all weapons WHICH ARE TRACED come back to US dealers.
The ones from Guatemala, El Sal, Cuba, North Korea, China, etc., which comprise the majority of the weapons seized, DO NOT RESPOND TO THE TRACE REQUESTS.
Since we are the only ones who keep records and trace weapons, obviously, the majority of the ones traced are ours.
The semi-auto rifles, shotguns, and pistols might be legally US purchased, but then turn out to be straw man sales. Why not track down the purchasers and put them in jail for a very long time, instead of deporting them to start all over again? If the records indicate that Jose has purchased more than a few firearms per month for an extended period, maybe you should look more closely at Jose instead of blaming his dealer, who has to follow the laws.
The frags, machine guns, grenade launchers, etc. are not sold from normal gun stores in the US. Those transactions, which are legal for private citizens in some states, still have to go through the BATFE approval process.
US firearms laws are not the cause of the Mexican drug violence.
US drug consumption MIGHT BE a causative factor.
I do not expect the WaPo to report those facts fairly and impartially.
TR
Irishsquid
12-13-2010, 10:45
Your post...
Well said, Sir! (Or Sgt, as the case may be...)
I know that I, personally, as a South-Central TX resident, could likely purchase a great deal more firepower, at a lower price, south of the border, than I ever could here in the States...
The semi-auto rifles, shotguns, and pistols might be legally US purchased, but then turn out to be straw man sales.
Might be interesting to know how many of those weapons mentioned were stolen or 'reported' ( :rolleyes: ) as stolen.
There is a problem with weapons hereabouts winding up in the wrong hands because perfectly legal purchasers buy them and then they are stolen (or reported as such) because they were not properly secured.
So it goes...
Richard :munchin
The Reaper
12-13-2010, 10:59
Any military caliber above .50 is considered a "Destructive Device," under the Gun Control Act of 1968, and can only be sold to A) a government agency, B) A "special Occupational Taxpayer," or C) a person with an approved Form 4, with $200.00 tax stamp affixed.
Actually, I think you are referring to the National Firearms Act of 1934.
TR
Irishsquid
12-13-2010, 11:08
NFA '34 included machine guns, mufflers/silencers, short-barreled rifles, and short barreled shotfuns. The destructive device/explosive destructive device category wasn't added until the GCA '68.
Basically, GCA '68 was sort of an addition to NFA '34. Just extended the same restrictions to even more firearms and devices.
Also, apparently, any shotgun not deemed to have a "sporting purpose," can be considered a destructive device, and subject to BATFE regulation under NFA '34 and GCA '68.
Federal Firearms Regulations (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf)
Section III.A is GCA '68
Section III.B is NFA '34
CombatMuffin
12-13-2010, 11:15
Dont confuse the issue of our security as a nation and the lawlessness of others. This is a continued effort by the left to disarm America.
Crip
Agreed, sir. The wording should not have been "downside", but rather, an external entity(the Cartels, etc) taking advantage of a U.S. privilege. As mentioned by Irishsquid, the problem begins when those taking advantage of that Right, begin to spread towards the U.S. and causing trouble, to which I agree.
Since we are the only ones who keep records and trace weapons, obviously, the majority of the ones traced are ours.
That makes perfect sense, I doubt all of the weaponry comes the United States, no one puts all of their eggs into one basket, especially when they have money, although I'd imagine purchasing from other latin american countries or overseas is not as practical.
US firearms laws are not the cause of the Mexican drug violence
Agreed, as well. Even if the U.S. offered little consumption, the truth is, there would still be Cartels. They seem passionate about money and power, drugs are simply a viable way of achieving it, which is why I also think legalizing drugs won't help in the long run. Gun control laws are not causing the violence: the people smuggling them for their business are.
SparseCandy
12-13-2010, 17:44
That makes perfect sense, I doubt all of the weaponry comes the United States, no one puts all of their eggs into one basket, especially when they have money, although I'd imagine purchasing from other latin american countries or overseas is not as practical.
Can you explain how it is easier for them to get large quantities of guns from the USA vs. other latin countries or overseas? (With links you have them.) It seems counter-intuitive to me.
The Reaper
12-13-2010, 18:13
I believe that an enterprising Mexican could cross the border into Guatemala (and from thence into ElSal, if necessary) with a modest sum of money and return to Mexico with an arsenal of modern weaponry.
The border crossing needs only luck, a small amount of bribe money, or the approval of a cartel.
Yes, I could get someone in the US to buy handguns and semi-auto rifles, and to smuggle them back into Mexico, but the Class III stuff is much easier to obtain from a corrupt military official, along with the ammo.
Hey, maybe Mexico should secure their borders?
TR
CombatMuffin
12-13-2010, 20:34
Can you explain how it is easier for them to get large quantities of guns from the USA vs. other latin countries or overseas? (With links you have them.) It seems counter-intuitive to me.
This (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/mexico_dynamics_gun_trade) was the article I was reading.
It just seemed logical to me that a Northern Cartel could go through the pains of smuggling weapons from the U.S., because of the following factors: better weapon conditions, wide availability, established smuggling rings inside their territory(no need to negotiate with other Cartels) and high end weaponry (apparently the 5.7x28mm becoming popular).
Smuggling does sound easier from Central and S.America, and in large volumes, N.America would be impractical if not impossible. I even recall some recent news where Calderon was talking about weapons being purchased from Africa in a proxy manner: Supposedly the U.S. selling it to Africa, then the Cartels buying them off corrupt African states... but that sounded like Calderon blaming his troubles on someone else...
This (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/mexico_dynamics_gun_trade) was the article I was reading.
It just seemed logical to me that a Northern Cartel could go through the pains of smuggling weapons from the U.S., because of the following factors: better weapon conditions, wide availability, established smuggling rings inside their territory(no need to negotiate with other Cartels) and high end weaponry (apparently the 5.7x28mm becoming popular).
Smuggling does sound easier from Central and S.America, and in large volumes, N.America would be impractical if not impossible. I even recall some recent news where Calderon was talking about weapons being purchased from Africa in a proxy manner: Supposedly the U.S. selling it to Africa, then the Cartels buying them off corrupt African states... but that sounded like Calderon blaming his troubles on someone else...
How many Chinese AK's could you get for the price of (1) average priced AR-15 bought through a straw purchase....
Oldrotorhead
12-14-2010, 08:17
Well said, Sir! (Or Sgt, as the case may be...)
I know that I, personally, as a South-Central TX resident, could likely purchase a great deal more firepower, at a lower price, south of the border, than I ever could here in the States...
No mention of the weapons supplied by the US Government to the Mexican Military and Police ending up in Cartel hands?? I would guess that almost all of the AR style full auto weapons in hands are from Mexican Government sources. Sold or stolen, but from the Mexican government.
Irishsquid
12-14-2010, 08:27
How many Chinese AK's could you get for the price of (1) average priced AR-15 bought through a straw purchase....
Assuming you bought the AKs down south on the black market, and the AR here in Texas...you'd likely pay around $1K for an average AR...and less than $200.00 for an AK knockoff.
1stindoor
12-14-2010, 08:34
No mention of the weapons supplied by the US Government to the Mexican Military and Police ending up in Cartel hands?? I would guess that almost all of the AR style full auto weapons in hands are from Mexican Government sources. Sold or stolen, but from the Mexican government.
I was about to make the same point.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/12/14/americas-war-secretly-trains-guatemalan-forces/
About 150 miles north of Guatemala City, deep in the jungle, is a military base where Guatemalan Special Forces are being trained secretly by U.S. Green Berets.
The U.S. officers say the Guatemalan troops are committed to the task of defeating the Mexican drug cartels and are training tirelessly. “They rest when they sleep,” said one Green Beret, who said the Guatemalan officers are engaged in exercises day and night.
The drills often focus on air assault operations, advanced marksmanship and structure breaches using explosives which allow the teams to break down doors while maintaining the element of surprise.
All of this intensive training is for one purpose: to rid Guatemala of the violence and intimidation associated with the drug cartels that have become increasingly pervasive in the last 3 years. Guatemala’s murder rate is now twice that of Mexico where more than 11,000 people have been killed just this year. President Felipe Calderon ordered his military to launch an assault on Mexico’s seven cartels four years ago.
But Guatemala’s military is far smaller than that of its neighbor to the north with 15,500 troops. The small number of soldiers is sanctioned by the government and is a result of the public’s distrust of the armed forces after decades of civil war.
And so Guatemala’s border remains undefended, allowing virtually anyone to cross without question, a fact echoed in U.S. Embassy documents made public by WikiLeaks this week and observed on a recent visit to the border by a Fox News team.
The porous border gives drug cartels free reign in Guatemala.
Police in the suburbs of Guatemala City say many farmers who live along the Mexico-Guatemala border have relinquished their land to Los Zetas, a notorious Mexican cartel known for its brutal tactics. Others have abandoned the border region anticipating that their property would be confiscated and their families would soon be targets.
“They ask how much they can make out the check to their widow,” says one Guatemala City resident who has watched private property and community treasures fall into the hands of Los Zetas, including one popular recreation stop in Peten, in the northern part of the country.
But other farmers are not so lucky. Police say the Zetas brutally tortured then murdered two farmers this year, apparently the punishment for not having information they sought in a brutal interrogation. The Guatemalan Special Forces responded to this incident and arrested two Zeta informants and confiscated weapons including an AK-47 and an M-16 as well as five cars with Mexican license plates.
But last week Los Zetas staged a dramatic prison break in San Marcos near the Mexican border, which is why the elite unit of Guatemalan forces is training particularly hard on the base in northern Guatemala.
And while there are small strides in fighting the cartels in Guatemala with the help of the U.S. Embassy, there are set-backs in other countries within the region.
In Costa Rica, the Sinaloa cartel has been establishing a base, according to recent reports which add that U.S. Drug Enforcement agents expect the presence of Mexico’s most powerful cartel, a rival to Los Zetas, to increase its power base in Costa Rica, a Central American nation which has no military.
1stindoor
12-14-2010, 09:54
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/12/14/americas-war-secretly-trains-guatemalan-forces/
About 150 miles north of Guatemala City, deep in the jungle, is a military base where Guatemalan Special Forces are being trained secretly by U.S. Green Berets.
Why does this all sound eeriely familiar? I seem to recall training Mexican Soldiers once...
Why does this all sound eeriely familiar? I seem to recall training Mexican Soldiers once...
"NMT 55 incountry at any one time."
About 150 miles north of Guatemala City, deep in the jungle, is a military base where Guatemalan Special Forces are being trained secretly by U.S. Green Berets.
About 150 miles north of Guatemala City, deep in the jungle, is a military base where Guatemalan Special Forces were being trained secretly by U.S. Green Berets.
Meh...Foxileaks...
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
CombatMuffin
12-14-2010, 21:35
A little off topic: Correct me if I am wrong, but I had once heard that a small number of Kaibiles were also inducted into the ranks of the Zetas back when they were formed by the Mexican Special Forces (GAFE's I believe) and attached as an armed hand for the Gulf Cartel. Its a damn shame if it were true...
I was reading (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/guatemala.htm) that they disbanded around 200k troops after their civil outbreak, and since their armed forces are numerically small, that could make for quite a lot of extra weapons to smuggle, and cash to be made.
The following cut and paste is from an article in Pajamas Media in 2009:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/testimony-on-assault-weapons-guts-obamas-90-percent-lie/
"The myth that legal guns sales in the United States are responsible for Mexican drug cartel violence took another serious blow last week when an ATF official testified in Congress that only eight percent of weapons recovered in Mexico came through licensed U.S. gun dealers.
This figure is far lower than the 90 percent claim made previously as an appeal to reinstate ineffective gun laws that expired in 2004. The claim — still active among the less informed or serially dishonest — officially became myth during congressional testimony last week when Bill McMahon, deputy assistant director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, revealed the eight percent figure, how it was calculated, and where the 90 percent myth arose from.
Of the 100,000 weapons recovered by Mexican authorities, only 18,000 were determined to have been manufactured, sold, or imported from the United States, and of those 18,000, just 7,900 came from sales by licensed gun dealers."
"Only eight percent of guns recovered from cartels in Mexico originated from legal gun dealers in the U.S.: not 90 percent as Obama has claimed."
Kind of puts the lie to the common myth that the guns come from legal sales in the US.
Oldrotorhead
12-31-2010, 16:04
Where are the people in charge of homeland security? I don't know what help she can be to them she hasn't helped to Southern Border States.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/31/napolitano-visit-aimed-beefing-afghan-border-security-customs/ :D
This is pretty intense; roughly 6-7 people per day being slaughtered in one town over the past 3 years:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/01/01/mexico-border-city-record-drug-killings/
The embattled border city of Ciudad Juarez had its bloodiest year ever with 3,111 people killed in drug violence, an official said Saturday.
The city across from El Paso, Texas, has seen its homicide rate soar to one of the highest in the world since vicious turf battles broke out between gangs representing the Juarez and Sinaloa cartels in 2008.
That year, 1,587 people were killed in drug violence, and the toll increased to 2,643 in 2009.
Ciudad Juarez's bloodiest month last year was October, when 359 people were killed, said Arturo Sandoval, a spokesman for prosecutors in Chihuahua state, where the city is located.
Sandoval did not give statistics on murders unrelated to the drug war.
More than 30,000 people have been killed in drug violence nationwide since President Felipe Calderon launched an offensive against the cartels after taking office in December 2006.
In the southern state of Guerrero, four members of a family were killed Saturday when gunmen opened fire at a New Year's celebration in the town of Piedra Iman.
State investigators said the four men, ages 80, 60, 32 and 17, were slain at a party on a basketball court.