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SPECTRE1
12-06-2010, 22:01
Hello, I am currently a senior in high school about to sign a Ranger (Option 40) contract with the active duty Army (E3 pay grade) as an 11B. I am confident that I will be able to be a successful Ranger candidate. However, it has always been a aspiration of mine to join the SOCOM community, and I think I may perhaps wish to try out for Army SF someday.
However, I was wondering if former Rangers make good Special Forces soldiers, or are they really two different aspects of SOCOM that usually just stay separate? I have asked soldiers this, and they really can't answer since they aren't SF. I was hoping some QP's on here may have been former 75th that could answer this. Thanks in advance, and I hope I'm worthy enough someday to serve alongside those who dedicate their careers to the welfare of this great nation.

Dozer523
12-06-2010, 22:31
Since you enlisted to be a Ranger, just worry about being the best Ranger you can.
TSBIYF:D

Eagle5US
12-06-2010, 22:39
Hello SPECTRE1,

Nicely articulated post. What you are asking is not really a question that plays one into another.
More likely, you can associate those who are motivated enough to do something that is difficult (and do it well) as being successful in doing other things that are also difficult - and doing THEM well.

The Rangers are part of SOF, but they do different things than Army Special Forces. Additionally, if the Rangers and Special Forces were both tasked to do the same thing, they would go about it very differently.

There is an old joke about Rangers and SF being ordered to take a hill....
The Rangers gathered their Battalion, planned their operation, laid on additional firepower, ran battle drills non-stop for 72 hours, refused to eat, did additional physical training and honed their marksmanship capabilities. Then they charged and secured the objective with 100% enemy killed and minimal friendlies wounded.

On a neighboring hill, a Special Forces A-Team was tasked with taking another hill...they went to their hooch, lit up cigars, drank some local hooch with the indig chief, and called up the Ranger BN. Mission still accomplished, just in a different way :D

Focus on your 25 meter target, enjoy cheerleaders, do well in school, keep yourself physically fit, remain mentally straight, and enjoy the experiences of learning to be a Soldier when the time comes.

THEN, learn to be an expert infantryman as a successful Soldier in the Rangers / Infantry / whatever you so choose. You may enjoy that lifestyle and mission profile. Should you find yourself wanting something different, then Special Forces may be an option for you to explore.

Bottom line, it isn't the unit you came from that makes you an exceptional choice for Special Operations, rather it is much the opposite...simply stated, Special Operations is made up of exceptional men who happen to be Soldiers.

HTH

Eagle

ZonieDiver
12-06-2010, 23:40
2nd post, FAQ, and no rebuke? What is this, the 'kinder, gentler' PS.com that I've heard about??? ;)

Richard
12-07-2010, 05:02
What is this, the 'kinder, gentler' PS.com that I've heard about???

Hey, it's the holiday season..."We're gonna press on, and we're gonna have the hap...hap...happiest Christmas since Bing Crosby tap-danced with Danny fucking Kaye."* ;)

As for Post#1 - there are many threads within this very Forum which already have the answers to that queston. Bottom line is - it depends on the individual. Now, enjoy the readings.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

* Clark Griswold

Dozer523
12-07-2010, 06:40
2nd post, FAQ, and no rebuke? What is this, the 'kinder, gentler' PS.com that I've heard about??? ;) well MERRY F-ING X-MAS to you, too. I SHOUTED all the letters in "The Search Button Is Your Friend"!

The Reaper
12-07-2010, 11:48
Have you used the Search button yet, and read the threads there, or are you asking for personal attention?

TR

wet dog
12-07-2010, 12:56
Have you used the Search button yet, and read the threads there, or are you asking for personal attention?

TR

I think he wants some personal attention.

SPECTRE1 -

One of the finest SF soldiers I ever knew started his career as a cook. That's what I said, a simple cook. Was a fine cook, respectful to his pears, a job well done each and every day. When he went to the SSG/E6 board, the board Pres./SGM asked, "Sergeant, what would you have changed about your career thus far in the US Army?", His answer was, "Nothing Sergeant Major, my career so far has been everything I expected from the US Army."

"Sergeant. Is there anything you would like to ask the board before we conclude this review?" "Yes Sergeant Major, I would like the opportunity to attend the Special Forces Qualification Course conducted at Ft. Bragg, NC before my time in the United Stated Army is finished."

"Very well Sergeant, dismissed."

"Thank you Sergeant Major. Thank you board members."

Be the best you can be in all you do. Don't worry about finding us, if you possess attributes and attitudes that are in line with Special Forces, trust us, we will find you.

Its also cool, when a Special Forces soldiers leaves the regiment, finds himself as the BN SGM in the 25th Infantry, Hawawii, and sits as the board/pres for young NCO's coming up in the ranks.

sinjefe
12-07-2010, 13:17
And I, Dusty and some others know a former Army trumpet player who was a shit hot commo sgt in SF and spent at least twenty of his years in service in SF.

I, myself, started my career in 1/75 and I believe it made me a better soldier.

It takes all kinds.

Dusty
12-07-2010, 14:03
IMO an outstanding training regimen for an SF aspirant to undergo in order to ingrain proper combat patrolling habits as well as raid and ambush techniques is Ranger school; this will facilitate the performance-oriented training you may give to your students one day. You'll also learn whether you're tough enough for Selection in some areas such as mental and physical discipline.

In those aspects, and maybe more, I would say "Yes; Rangers can make good SF soldiers."

The sooner you learn that your body will do what your mind says to do the better whether Ranger school, band, cooking classes or wherever...

f50lrrp
12-07-2010, 14:42
I, too, started out as a Ranger before going SF. The Rangers are & were the premier Infantry in the entire World. That being said, they are not Special Forces!

Start out as a Ranger and learn all that you can. Then if you still have a burning desire to be the best that the Army has to offer, try out for Special Forces.

SPECTRE1
12-07-2010, 15:04
Have you used the Search button yet, and read the threads there, or are you asking for personal attention?

TR

Yes sir, I have used the search button and read the forum rules. It didn't appear as if this question was already asked when I looked. It appears that was a mistake, my apologies. No, I am hardly looking for personal attention, just an answer. My mistake, sorry.

And thank you to all who answered, I appreciate all of the information. Also, thanks for your service, we wouldn't be where we are without you.

ZonieDiver
12-07-2010, 22:55
well MERRY F-ING X-MAS to you, too. I SHOUTED all the letters in "The Search Button Is Your Friend"!

First of all - pink font not available! - Hey! I don't want crap from someone who PAYS to have his Christmas lights put up!

Secondly, mea culpable for NOT knowing that TSBIYF meant 'The Search Button Is Your Friend'! I thought it meant 'Team Sergeant Brings It, You Fu#*ers!'. Cripes! I'm only a former enlisted man. We depend on you ossifers!

blue02hd
12-07-2010, 23:10
SPECTER,

Would a good high school football player make a good high school wrestler?

Does that help you relate?

Dozer523
12-07-2010, 23:16
First of all - pink font not available! - Hey! I don't want crap from someone who PAYS to have his Christmas lights put up!
Secondly, mea culpable for NOT knowing that TSBIYF meant 'The Search Button Is Your Friend'! I thought it meant 'Team Sergeant Brings It, You Fu#*ers!'. Cripes! I'm only a former enlisted man. We depend on you ossifers!
Cross polinazation violation! And MR I-live-in-a-one-story-adobe-with-a-flat-roof-on-a-cul-de-sac, Damn right! I hire someone to go up there! Its a pitched roof, three freaking stories to the cement patio/walk-out basement (I hate this house). I won't ever watch them put up the lights! There ain't a PLF in the world . . .
As for that TS crack. . . now that's funny! (you can wear the Handcock avatar for a while.)

ZonieDiver
12-07-2010, 23:34
*

mils
12-08-2010, 17:20
Regiment molds young killing machines one fire team at a time.

A smart ranger will make a great soldier in almost any environment, sf included. I love the upbringing I've had in the army, and have done well with what I've been given, but wish I started out as a PFC in Regiment as opposed to anywhere else.

And yes, I agree Ranger school will give a good concept of patrolling, small unit direct leadership, and lots of scenario based--don't let the notional fairy bolo your patrol--mdmp choices that'll make you begin to think like a qp, on the fly, no matter what your rank is, so make the most of it, and you'll learn a ton in addition to getting a tab.

Green Light
12-08-2010, 18:45
Regiment molds young killing machines one fire team at a time.

A smart ranger will make a great soldier in almost any environment, sf included. I love the upbringing I've had in the army, and have done well with what I've been given, but wish I started out as a PFC in Regiment as opposed to anywhere else.

And yes, I agree Ranger school will give a good concept of patrolling, small unit direct leadership, and lots of scenario based--don't let the notional fairy bolo your patrol--mdmp choices that'll make you begin to think like a qp, on the fly, no matter what your rank is, so make the most of it, and you'll learn a ton in addition to getting a tab.

Subliminal message here? I noticed that you capitalize Regiment (I assume 75th Infantry) and leave SF lower case. The shift key is next to your right pinky.

mils
12-08-2010, 19:33
Not at all. Its been a minute since I've had a little corrective training.

I hold both Regiments in high regard.

Surgicalcric
12-08-2010, 19:57
...A smart ranger will make a great soldier in almost any environment, sf included...

Not true in the least bit. I have known/know quite a few smart Rangers (my father one of them) who didn't/doesn't belong anywhere near the missions which set SF apart from the remainder of SOF.

It takes a different mindset to be a good SF soldier. ;)

"The conduct of unconventional warfare carries heavier demands than the wearing of a beret and the mastery of unusual firearms. Unconventional warfare is a state of mind as well as mission and distinctive set of tactics." -Col.(ret) Hy Rothstein

Richard
12-08-2010, 20:06
I hold both Regiments in high regard...A smart ranger will make a great soldier in almost any environment, sf included.

Perhaps you think that way because you appear to have served in neither of them yet want to offer an 'informed' opinion on both.

Cric is correct IMO.

Richard :munchin

ODA CDR (RET)
12-09-2010, 16:31
The Ranger Tab as well as the EIB and Jumpmaster is required if you would like to make a career of Special Forces. Let me be the first to tell you that you will not be promoted to a rank of being in charge of troops without them. Of course there is the exception of the few superstars, but then you have to ask yourself if you are a superstar. The earlier in your career you get them, the easier life will be.

craigepo
12-09-2010, 17:33
Can a lackluster soldier make a good Special Forces guy?

Dusty
12-09-2010, 17:44
Can a lackluster soldier make a good Special Forces guy?

Ooh! Ooh! I was! I was! :D

wet dog
12-09-2010, 17:51
I've known many Rangers, who did not do well in SF. Seems they were, well, more regimented. They really liked the light-infantry better and returned to have excellent careers back in Batt. They got the SF tab, but never called themselves "SF". They were rangers, always were, always will be. Having the SF tab for them helped and hurt their ranger careers. One was passed over in becoming a 1st SGT in Bn because he had a SF MOS, some thought he would leave again. So he left 1/75th, headed to Hawaii, (25th Inf.), made E8, retired.

Excellent soldiers nonetheless. I know three rangers in 2/75, now, who wish they could get away from the CAG support role, and become a light infantry unit again. They are Sr. NCOs and hate what has become of Bn.

Many have been promoted to Co, Bn, or Grp SGM without a Ranger Tab. Many have been promoted to Co, Bn or Grp Cdr without a Ranger Tab. Many a retired Ranger have run for politcal office and failed to be elected. Many a ranger and special forces soldier has had difficulty with retirement because they have failed to adjust and overcome.

Dozer523
12-09-2010, 17:52
Ooh! Ooh! I was! I was! :DThere were some of us who didn't really want to be Rangers. (The absence of pink is deliberate.) Making Ranger a pre-qualification for SF, IMO, will deny SF many good Soldiers. "Ranger" as a pre-requisite is going to change the "cut of cloth" to looking pretty Ranger-plaid.

Dusty
12-09-2010, 17:56
There were some of us who didn't really want to be Rangers.


Or Jumpmasters. :D

Dozer523
12-09-2010, 18:02
Or Jumpmasters. :D Did Too. Not my fault Bill J is R/G color blind.:D

wet dog
12-09-2010, 18:04
I've known many Rangers, who did not do well in SF. Seems they were, well, more regimented. They really liked the light-infantry better and returned to have excellent careers back in Batt. They got the SF tab, but never called themselves "SF". They were rangers, always were, always will be. Having the SF tab for them helped and hurt their ranger careers. One was passed over in becoming a 1st SGT in Bn because he had a SF MOS, some thought he would leave again. So he left 1/75th, headed to Hawaii, (25th Inf.), made E8, retired.

Excellent soldiers nonetheless. I know three rangers in 2/75, now, who wish they could get away from the CAG support role, and become a light infantry unit again. They are Sr. NCOs and hate what has become of Bn.

Many have been promoted to Co, Bn, or Grp SGM without a Ranger Tab. Many have been promoted to Co, Bn or Grp Cdr without a Ranger Tab. Many a retired Ranger have run for politcal office and failed to be elected. Many a ranger and special forces soldier has had difficulty with retirement because they have failed to adjust and overcome.

I never looked good with a High and Tight. I was much more effective wearing a welding jacket, long hair, hands in pockets, drinking coffee.

I lacked a certain luster myself.

Dusty
12-09-2010, 18:11
Did Too. Not my fault Bill J is R/G color blind.:D

:D:D:D

greenberetTFS
12-09-2010, 18:44
There were some of us who didn't really want to be Rangers./quote/Dozer523

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with Dozer........... Don't get me wrong I believe that the Rangers are a damn fine outfit but they weren't for me......... After I got back from NCO school I was "requested" to go for a Ranger tab by my CO...... The 75th wasn't in existence then,what you earned was the tab..........I "respectfully" told him I wasn't interested,I had already earned my EIB,and got my promotion to E-5 because of my standing at NCO school...........I was the youngest E-5(19)in the Battle Group.........I had only one thing on my mind and that was to get into SF after I re-upped.........SF was where my heart was and will always be.............Zonie expressed it better than any one I've ever known.............;)

Big Teddy :munchin

Bennett
12-10-2010, 09:43
This is total BS; Ranger school is a Jr Officer/NCO leadership school, not needed for anything other than teaching basic skills to new Soldiers. These skill sets are taught at the Qualification Course, I know I was an instructor there. I only heard from two Bn CDRs during the mid 90s that they wanted all Tm Ldrs to be Ranger qualified, I happened to be a TM LDR at the time and told them it wasn’t necessary, they agreed it was for the young Officer with less experience that needed it. As for Tm Daddies I only had two out of my 22 years, Ranger qualified and they had spent all their time in SF and only went to the school for promotion points. Those coming out of the Ranger Regiment have a very hard time adjusting, for the most part, to the SF way of life. When they hit the Teams the first adjustment is we are all leaders, rank only matters for responsibility, if its commo training then the commo guys are in charge and so on. Being a JM is a matter of pride, we use to make it a priority to let the new TM LDRS go up front because their careers only allowed them a short time to do this. The NCOs had a career to do it, most TM SGTs encourage all to go and by the time a NCO gets to be An 18Z he is most likely a JM. EIBs are nice for the Infantry units and we do send the JR NCOs to get theirs for promotion points, doesn’t make a hill of beans otherwise. You will always have the badge hunters most of the time they are the guys a Team can do without and the TM SGT sends them away to one school or another, the “got ‘a have members are kept close and sometimes suffer for being so. OK my two cents, I think I have a diverse enough back ground to make such comments, feed back??? By the way there is only one Regiment and that’s the 1st SF Regiment.

craigepo
12-10-2010, 10:57
I think that we are analyzing this incorrectly.

Initially, it is never a bad idea to get guys into SF that have a good foundation of soldiering skills. Joining the ranger regiment at 18 years of age is a good way to acquire those skills in a short amount of time.

Second, because of my present occupation, I realize that the older a man gets, the less testosterone he carries. In my observations, I note that large amounts of testosterone lead to small amounts of forethought. Parachuting onto an airfield in the face of ZSU-4 fire is a mission best done without thinking much about the mission beforehand. Ergo, this author at 19 years old bailing out of a C-130 in Panama.

Conversely, SF missions require a ton of complex forethought. That same 19 year old that would gladly invade a jungle island armed with only a knife will have a little tougher time planning and conducting a year-long mission to conquer and pacify that same jungle island. He's 19 for Pete's sake!! If the wind blows in the right direction, all of his blood drains from his brain to his genitalia!

I'm not saying that SF is a low-testosterone sport; far from it. But, SF does require a definite maturity level and skill set that is generally unheard of with young guys. Ranger missions, on the other hand, often require some good old, en masse, well-rehearsed ass-whooping that is tailor-made for young dudes.

Dozer523
12-10-2010, 11:04
I think that we are analyzing this incorrectly. . . .

I'm not saying that SF is a low-testosterone sport; far from it. But, SF does require a definite maturity level and skill set that is generally unheard of with young guys. There is also the chronogical fact that the older you are the less BS you are willing to bear.
As for the "with only a knife" stuff . . . only if it's Bill's knife. :cool:(Is it REALLY almost Christmas?)
PS. I knew, if I waited long enough, I'd finally agree with Bennett.

Richard
12-10-2010, 12:11
When I first got to Group, there was a lot of experience among both the NCO and Officer Corps with guys who had fought in the original Airborne and Ranger (before there was a Ranger school) units of WW2, the OSS, various foreign military units, the Korean War, and all over SEA, Latin America, and Africa.

Ranger school was looked upon as an entry-level Squad/Platoon Leader course which had grown in importance due to the emphasis on small unit patrolling by Light Infantry during our lengthy CALFX in RVN. It had also grown (like the BAC) to be viewed as an important confidence/leadership development school for young, inexperienced junior Officers and EM/NCOs.

My first B TM SGM was the first 1-0 for RT Alaska and had led the second cross-border mission for SOG; my first TM SGT had several tours in B-52 and had been an instructor at the MAC-V RECONDO School. A good number of our Officers were prior service NCOs from SF. These men were our teachers and mentors, and their focus was on teaching us to do those basics correctly as a skill-level 1 task while pushing us to further develop our PMOS skills and emphasizing the necessity of cross-training.

It was the SF way.

Ranger school at that time was more-or-less reserved for the rest of the Army who needed the slots and, other than patrolling as taught in SFTG and learned under the tutlege of our experienced NCOs in the units, our more formalized training was the IMA 1-0 School run by NCOs and Officers who had served in the 'Projects' in RVN. The Army view towards an SF NCO going to Ranger school was one of "Why are you here? You've already had this training and you're taking a slot from someone out there who needs it...are you badge collecting?"

I was back in CONUS in the 7th SFGA when they formed the Ranger Bns and we were stripped of our Ranger qualified NCOs who 'were volunteered' :rolleyes: for the leadership positions in those first two Bns. A number of them - senior SSGs and SFCs - retired because they did not want to go be a SQD LDR or PSG after having led platoons and companies of indigenous forces on multiple tours in RVN. Our Group CSM who wasn't Ranger qualified went to Ranger school at 43 to be the CSM for the 2nd Ranger Bn - he was the Honor Grad for his class. Go figure.

Throughout my time in Group, I saw good, mediocre, and not so good Ranger and non-Ranger qualified NCOs and Officers come and go.

My point in all this is that as much as some things change, it will always depend on the individual - whether this 'XXX' qualified or that 'XXX' qualified or some other 'XXX' qualified or not - some are SF material and some never will be. It is what makes SF what it is.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

Bennett
12-10-2010, 12:59
Ah, Dozer I get my Christmas present early this year, thanks man.

wet dog
12-10-2010, 13:05
This is total BS; Ranger school is a Jr Officer/NCO leadership school, not needed for anything other than teaching basic skills to new Soldiers. These skill sets are taught at the Qualification Course, I know I was an instructor there. I only heard from two Bn CDRs during the mid 90s that they wanted all Tm Ldrs to be Ranger qualified, I happened to be a TM LDR at the time and told them it wasn’t necessary, they agreed it was for the young Officer with less experience that needed it. As for Tm Daddies I only had two out of my 22 years, Ranger qualified and they had spent all their time in SF and only went to the school for promotion points. Those coming out of the Ranger Regiment have a very hard time adjusting, for the most part, to the SF way of life. When they hit the Teams the first adjustment is we are all leaders, rank only matters for responsibility, if its commo training then the commo guys are in charge and so on. Being a JM is a matter of pride, we use to make it a priority to let the new TM LDRS go up front because their careers only allowed them a short time to do this. The NCOs had a career to do it, most TM SGTs encourage all to go and by the time a NCO gets to be An 18Z he is most likely a JM. EIBs are nice for the Infantry units and we do send the JR NCOs to get theirs for promotion points, doesn’t make a hill of beans otherwise. You will always have the badge hunters most of the time they are the guys a Team can do without and the TM SGT sends them away to one school or another, the “got ‘a have members are kept close and sometimes suffer for being so. OK my two cents, I think I have a diverse enough back ground to make such comments, feed back??? By the way there is only one Regiment and that’s the 1st SF Regiment.

Bennett - Don't ask me to take over any duties at the local chapter when you're finished, I'm not qualified, missed that badge, still working on the "Magneto Kick Starter" Badge, followed by "Titanium Welding Alloy" badge, shit, damn bikers.

MVP
12-10-2010, 13:21
Only had one ranger from bn come to one of my teams. never made the mental transition. Never liked what was different about SF and was unhappy about what was not. Tried to play rank when he could with the jr. guys but was upset when a sr tm guy put him in his place. Worked with a ranger on a committee at SWC, prefered to be addressed as "Ranger L.", went back to Bn...

Gotta agree with Don.

MVP

Irishsquid
12-10-2010, 13:30
*Not SF or Ranger tabbed*


I was in the non-qual program at B/1/20th SFG(A) until, for financial reasons, I had to leave the unit for a while. At B Co, we had a few guys from the 75th. One of those really made the transition to SF well. One of the most stand-up guys ever to PT me until I puked. The other two, while good Soldiers and stand-up guys, just didn't seem to fit in. Screamed "Hooah," a lot, spent a lot of time at parade rest and position of attention. Got a lot of funny looks and a few laughs. Seemed like most of the other guys just had a hard time taking them seriously, not as Soldiers, but as SF.


Once again, just personal observation. I am neither SF nor Ranger tabbed.

Richard
12-10-2010, 14:01
All this reminds me of an old cartoon we used to have posted on the B-710 SGM's bulletin board with the notices and duty rosters.

It showed a bunch of SF guys outside the orderly room waiting to be called to formation. It's raining and about a third of them are standing around in the rain and about two-thirds of them are lined up standing under the small roof partition which went around the old wooden team houses between the first and second floors (attchd pic).

Commenting on those standing out in the rain, one of the guys standing under the roof to keep dry says, "We seem to be getting a lot of Rangers in here lately."

And so it goes...;)

Richard :munchin

MVP
12-10-2010, 15:04
The ranger I worked with at SWC refused to use the a/c in his truck, said it would make him weak.
:D
MVP

wet dog
12-10-2010, 17:25
The ranger I worked with at SWC refused to use the a/c in his truck, said it would make him weak.
:D
MVP
Really? I would have guessed "cool or comfortable".

SPECTRE1
12-11-2010, 14:44
How many of you QP's have your Ranger tab or have served in the 75th?

The Reaper
12-11-2010, 15:05
How many of you QP's have your Ranger tab or have served in the 75th?

This is easily determined by looking at the user profiles, or just reading the responses on this thread.

Is that too much trouble for you?:rolleyes:

I am not understanding what the point is.

Have you signed your contract yet? If so, the question is moot. Do or do not.

TR

SPECTRE1
12-11-2010, 20:21
No sir, it is not too much trouble for me.

Actually, my recruiters are just waiting for an Option 40 with 11B/Airborne to pop into the system, and they will call me up and I'll sign it off, then I'm in.

blue02hd
12-11-2010, 21:03
How many of you QP's have your Ranger tab or have served in the 75th?

Son, questions like this make me doubt your ability to successfully negotiate Basic Training let alone join and successfully contribute in a Ranger Battalion. It reflects an attitude that will most likely create a negative, long, painful, and possibly short career in the service. You better start considering two things: There is no "You" and I, this is a team event. Second, it is clear you have not found an answer that you are specifically looking for. This implies linear thinking, and that is the number one reason it is difficult for many old "Bat Boys" to successfully transition to the extremely complicated world of UW.

Your personality is reflective of the 75 to 80% of the privates that were RFS'd (Ranger Failed Standards) during their first 12 months of arriving. Of the 22 new Rangers I arrived with only 4 of us made it to E-4 in the RGR BN mainly due to lack of attention to detail and a poor attitude. You are lacking the former and demonstrating the latter. Others decided it simply was not for them.

Your goal in Basic Training should be Honor Grad, followed by a similar performance in Airborne school, etc. It consistently amazes me that aspiring recruits so completely look past the challenges of transitioning from civilian to military life and totally disregard the vital and necessary BASIC training that they will have to MASTER in order to get to Step One: SFAS.

Statistically speaking SPECTER1 you have already lost.

I personally think that looking to a website as part of your training program is already an indicator. You either want it or you don't, you'll either make the standards or you will not. And if you really want it, then the statistics and what somebody on the other end of your keyboard won't !*&(^%! matter.

Now assume the "Thinking" position ( your back flat against the wall, your feet flat on the ground, your knees bent at a 90 degree angle ) and reread this entire thread again.

LongWire
12-11-2010, 23:03
How many of you QP's have your Ranger tab or have served in the 75th?

Thats a serious question with 2 different implications and or answers........be that as it may, I'm not liking your tone.

ArmyRanger.com is a place for aspiring Rangers. Once you've grown up a little, you may want to relook the whole SF thing.

Oh I've served in Regt, and comparing apples and oranges is just talk of fruit. I like meat and potatoes. Add all that and some bread and you have a well balanced meal. :D

Dreadnought
08-13-2012, 23:54
Pfft, there's some outdated opinions on the 75th in here!

Adam1680
08-14-2012, 01:20
This is total BS; Ranger school is a Jr Officer/NCO leadership school, not needed for anything other than teaching basic skills to new Soldiers. These skill sets are taught at the Qualification Course, I know I was an instructor there.

As most have said throughout this forum, two different organizations, two different missions, two different mind sets. A lot of the guys that were ranger regiment that we went through the Q-course with quit when they found out SF wasn't DA, DA, DA.

Bennett - I'm sure you'll be disappointed to know this wasn't my experience (I just graduated the Q-Course in April 2012). The Q-Course did not teach me (or even remotely reinforce) the things I learned at ranger school. While I agree that ranger school teaches basic patrolling skills, I would say that it teaches you more about how far you can push yourself and still complete the mission. I'm not bashing the Q-Course, but you can't replicate ranger school, except, well, at ranger school. SUT is an ever changing entity. Most recent, ranger qualified, Q course graudates I know would agree, that if logistically it was feasible, we would be a better tactically trained organization if ranger school replaced SUT (when we graduated the Q-Course, not after years of experience). It's not logistically feasible to send all trainees, so it's a moot point. Currently I work for a BN Cdr that requires all his team leaders to be ranger qualified, and I can't say that I disagree with his logic. Ranger school is certainly not all that it's hyped up to be, but I think any leader, at any level, can learn something from attending.

Dozer523
08-14-2012, 12:48
Currently I work for a BN Cdr that requires all his team leaders to be ranger qualified, and I can't say that I disagree with his logic. Ranger school is certainly not all that it's hyped up to be, but I think any leader, at any level, can learn something from attending. I have a stick, so I might as well smack THAT hornet's nest.
Who/what give a LTC/BnCdr the right or power to establish the criteria for command? Does he have a Ranger Tab? OF COURSE he does. I think it is a mistake -- to the point of being wrong -- that some believe that to serve them, one has to look like them.
I'm glad I never faced that. Thank God too. The best SF Bn Commander I ever served was an Aviator.

Here is another problem with that idea. Historically, the Ranger School's attrition rate has hovered at 50 percent. Last year, it was 46... * Lots of things go wrong for people at a scvhool that prides it'self in it's injury and attrition rate. I don't think it is wise to spend all the time and effort to develop SF Leaders and then require them to put thier careers at risk to get something they can't use later. Yes. I said "can't use later". When have you ever seen a pair of Crossed Arrows in the Ranger Battalion?
Never, that's when. We're Special Forces Branch. We're not Infantry Branch. AND, every Officer that comes out of the Q has the full-faith and trust of the Commanding General USAJFKSWCS. They have passed the test, jumped the hurdle, etc etc. They are prepared to command, SWC says so.
You raise the bar LTC? Well, fine. There are three other Battalions so BFD.

I can't believe there is a Group Commander who is going along with this. And I can't believe there is a Group 1 who isn't screaming "FIRE!!" in the movie theater. I suspect, hope that (if) the GRP Commander is going along with it, he does so from the standpoint of "Be careful what you wish for."

BTW in the the mid-80's the CG of the 7th Inf Div tried the same thing. I don't think it worked.


* (U.S. Army Ranger School | Maneuver Center of Excellence Blog Mar 11, 2012 ... U.S. Army Ranger School: Making through the cut)

ZonieDiver
08-14-2012, 13:31
I can't believe there is a Group Commander who is going along with this.

He doesn't seem like that kind of guy, so I seriously doubt it.

By the way, great post, Brother Dozer!

ZonieDiver
08-14-2012, 13:42
Pfft, there's some outdated opinions on the 75th in here!

In over four years on this site, that's the first "Pfft" I've seen!

I just read through the entire thread to refresh my fading memory, and admit to never having been in a Ranger Bn, or to Ranger School. So, for my personal edification and enlightenment, would your care to elucidate which opinions in this thread are "outdated"?

Or, I guess you could just let it go with a "Pfft"!

Thanks in advance.

Dozer523
08-14-2012, 14:03
By the way, great post, Brother Dozer!:D)

Team Sergeant
08-14-2012, 14:08
Currently I work for a BN Cdr that requires all his team leaders to be ranger qualified, and I can't say that I disagree with his logic. Ranger school is certainly not all that it's hyped up to be, but I think any leader, at any level, can learn something from attending.

And I thought Blank Frank retired?:munchin

"I talk in 5.56 and I Yell in 7.62" :rolleyes:

mark46th
08-14-2012, 16:11
I don't mean this in a detrimental context. But, back in the day, we thought of Ranger School as 9 weeks of Phase I...

ZonieDiver
08-14-2012, 21:00
Currently I work for a BN Cdr that requires all his team leaders to be ranger qualified, and I can't say that I disagree with his logic.

The "young Jedi" is correct, and I eat my words! I even have a name. Tis true. It is not the first time said individual has had such a requirement either, and since MOST aspirants for said positions already possess such Tab, is probably not that big a deal.

Old guys... WTF do we know?:D

Richard
08-14-2012, 21:32
Currently I work for a BN Cdr that requires all his team leaders to be ranger qualified, and I can't say that I disagree with his logic.

Guess things have changed somewhat; the B Tm, C Tm, and Group Cdrs I knew hired and fired Officers on demonstrated competence and focus.

Richard :munchin

Dreadnought
08-14-2012, 21:57
In over four years on this site, that's the first "Pfft" I've seen!

I just read through the entire thread to refresh my fading memory, and admit to never having been in a Ranger Bn, or to Ranger School. So, for my personal edification and enlightenment, would your care to elucidate which opinions in this thread are "outdated"?

Or, I guess you could just let it go with a "Pfft"!

Thanks in advance.

Sure, although what I meant is pretty much literally what I said. The majority of opinions of the 75th in here are not very current, though some may be as it is hard to tell. The Regiment is in a state of constant flux, especially so recently, and is even a different beast than it was 4 years ago. While there are some things that have carried over from generations past (easily noticed and also discerned from talking with older guys), there are other things which have most definitely changed.

Obviously (and understandably), there's a weak representation of the modern 75th on this website and so therefore the bias is heavier against it. Analogously, on AR.com there is that same bias just in the opposite direction. I'm just throwing my towel in here for the other side, defending the underdog as it were :lifter I don't particularly like being stereotyped as the young, dumb, regimented, "good at fundamentals" kinda guy that's been alluded to in a few posts in this thread :p. Only at least two of those apply!

I intend to come across friendly, of course.

Adam1680
08-14-2012, 22:02
Guess things have changed somewhat; the B Tm, C Tm, and Group Cdrs I knew hired and fired Officers on demonstrated competence and focus.

Richard :munchin

I'm not sure how ranger school and "competence and focus" are related? If you're implying that people are getting teams and staying in teams because they have a ranger tab, but are lacking other attributes, let me clear that up by saying that's not the case.

This turned into a bash my BN really quickly, and that certainly wasn't my intent. I don't know why any officer or soldier, given the opportunity, would flat out deny the opportunity to at least attempt a school where they can better themselves? As many have pointed out before, the Q-Course is merely the initial stepping stone into SF. Just because you graduated the Q-Course does not make you "too good" to learn something new, and in my opinion, ranger school is certainly not beneath an 18 series qualified soldier/ officer. There's absolutely nothing wrong, in my opinion, of a commander asking his subordinates to do more to better themselves and the organization.

ZonieDiver
08-14-2012, 22:08
I'm not sure how ranger school and "competence and focus" are related? If you're implying that people are getting teams and staying in teams because they have a ranger tab, but are lacking other attributes, let me clear that up by saying that's not the case.

This turned into a bash my BN really quickly, and that certainly wasn't my intent. I don't know why any officer or soldier, given the opportunity, would flat out deny the opportunity to at least attempt a school where they can better themselves? As many have pointed out before, the Q-Course is merely the initial stepping stone into SF. Just because you graduated the Q-Course does not make you "too good" to learn something new, and in my opinion, ranger school is certainly not beneath an 18 series qualified soldier/ officer. There's absolutely nothing wrong, in my opinion, of a commander asking his subordinates to do more to better themselves and the organization.

Someone I hold in very high regard holds the Bn Cdr in question in very high regard, and that's enough for me. As I said before, I have yet to meet a current SF Captain or above who is not Ranger tabbed... so, perhaps the question becomes one of "why didn't you?".

Richard
08-14-2012, 22:38
I'm not sure how ranger school and "competence and focus" are related?

Only in that whether someone is a 'V' or not does not - IMO and experience - necessarily determine whether or not they will make a competent ODA Cdr (or any other Cdr) with an appropriate mission focus. I've seen it work both ways with some of them being excellent and some being among the worst.

I commanded several SCUBA ODAs and was given command of the first one as a 2LT (with 8 yrs of AD and 6 yrs in Group with overseas tours in SEA and Europe prior to OCS and IOBC) when our Bn Cdr (a Ranger qualified MOH recipient) relieved the Ranger qualified Tm Ldr (a CPT) and Tm Sgt for incompetence.

There were two 2LT ODA CDRs in the 7th then - both diverted from the 82nd by our Bn CDR - I had the primary Bn SCUBA ODA and Danny (the other 2LT who was also a prior SF NCO) had the primary Bn HALO ODA.

My point is that the Cdrs I knew back then went looking for people who had already proven themselves to be competent and mission focused leaders - and not whether or not they were Ranger qualified.

Along that current line of reasoning of your Bn Cdr, are we now going to demand our 180As also be Ranger qualified or else despite their many years of time on an ODA? :confused:

If that's the case, so be it - but it's a definite change from the past as I knew it.

Thanks for listening and good luck - bottom line is that it's your baton to carry now, not mine, and I wish everyone who picks it up only the best as they carry on the tradition that we FOGs were fortunate enough to be a part of at one time. ;)

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

Stras
08-15-2012, 03:48
And I thought Blank Frank retired?:munchin

"I talk in 5.56 and I Yell in 7.62" :rolleyes:

Great speech to give the FRG when he's referring to "not needing language training"..

Most of us still think of Ranger School as an extended Phase I or whatever they are calling SUT these days.

mark46th
08-15-2012, 10:33
No one here is denigrating the Ranger Battalion. It has a specific mission and it trains for that mission. We all respect the battalion's history and its present work. What the FOGs are saying, is that passing the 9 week course means just that. It does not guarantee that you will be an effective leader or team member. The same goes for the Special Forces Q course. It means one has passed the course, nothing more. Now you have to go out in the real world and prove that you can function on all levels of the Special Forces Regiment. What the FOG's are saying is Special Forces has traditionally been a meritocracy. How you perform on an A, B and C Team(Sorry, I am a FOG, I still use the original designations) is more important than the tabs on your sleeve.

Dusty
08-15-2012, 10:42
No one here is denigrating the Ranger Battalion. It has a specific mission and it trains for that mission. We all respect the battalion's history and its present work. What the FOGs are saying, is that passing the 9 week course means just that. It does not guarantee that you will be an effective leader or team member. The same goes for the Special Forces Q course. It means one has passed the course, nothing more. Now you have to go out in the real world and prove that you can function on all levels of Special Forces Regiment. What the FOG's are saying is Special Forces has traditionally been a meritocracy. How you perform on an A, B and C Team(Sorry, I am a FOG, I still use the original designations) is more important than the tabs on your sleeve.

Good post. That aspect should never change.

Dozer523
08-15-2012, 13:32
The part directed to me.This turned into a bash my BN really quickly... I bashed neither your batalion nor your Commander. I disagreed with an individual policy.

I don't know why any officer or soldier, given the opportunity, would flat out deny the opportunity to at least attempt a school where they can better themselves? I agree! An individual Soldier should and would avail themselves of every opportunity for additional education. But, in this case the Soldier is not volunteering; he is being held to a standard that exsists only in one Battalion and for a limitted period of time. If being a Ranger was essential to being a Special Forces Officer (as being a Paratrooper) then it would be in the SWC pre-requisites or it would be part of the pipeline. It's not. Making Ranger School a pre-requsite was considered and rejected. (And a cautionary note: The Army doesn't have ae evaluation called "attempted". One "exceeds","meets", 'marginally meets" or "fails to meet the course standards".)

As many have pointed out before, the Q-Course is merely the initial stepping stone into SF. Well . . . maybe when Dinosaurs and Dozers ruled the Earth, but now? Then there was the Q and everything else (SERE, Language, HALO/SCUBA, etc) came later. Now? There is a heck of a lot more. So, how many gates does a guy have to pass? And a gate added after the race is won? Only for a job with this one guy?

Just because you graduated the Q-Course does not make you "too good" to learn something new, and in my opinion, ranger school is certainly not beneath an 18 series qualified soldier/ officer No one said that, Adam. The needs of the Army come first; the Army determined what a Special Forces Officer should look like. And that is my beef. He is changing the standard that all those Captains agreed too when they put everything on the line. Which begs the question: Why? So they are better educated -- in one aspect -- and have "proof"? Or so his Batalion has the advantage of these "uber" SF Captains? What's next? Max the APFT? 3+/3+? USMA grads? 6'3 and blonde?

There's absolutely nothing wrong, in my opinion, of a commander asking his subordinates to do more to better themselves and the organization. There is no "asking" going on here. The Battalion Commander has made it a requirement, an order. Wanna check? Look him in the eye and say, "Thanks but no thanks. how 'bout HALO?"

It is unnecessary, it's not a valid assumption, it violates the initial agreement. But as Richard states, it isn't my ruck to hump anymore.

1stindoor
08-15-2012, 14:11
And that is my beef. He is changing the standard that all those Captains agreed too when they put everything on the line. Which begs the question: Why? So they are better educated -- in one aspect -- and have "proof"? Or so his Batalion has the advantage of these "uber" SF Captains? What's next? Max the APFT? 3+/3+? USMA grads? 6'3 and blonde?


That's the bottom line in my opinion. Gives him bragging rights over the other BCs when they're vying for facetime with the Commander. Maybe the next Bn Cdr is more supportive of the repeal of the DADT policy and wants at least one, if not two, openly gay Tm Ldrs.

Adam1680
08-15-2012, 22:49
There's too much up there too quote from.. I see where you guys are coming from, and respect your opinion. I was the guy at ranger school that said people that "tab check" are stupid and it doesn't change who you are as a person, and it doesn't. Realizing times are different now than they were 10 years ago (I've been in 17 years), if I see a team leader without a ranger tab now, it would be a point of discussion pretty early in the relationship to figure out what happened. Again, by no means am I saying it makes you a good leader, bad leader, competent person or anything like that, but we all pretty much have the opportunity to go (multiple times if prior Infantry) and most of the guys at least WANT to go. The guys that avoid it or say that it's beneath them and their abilities would definitely get the waning eye.

I should've started out by saying that it's not just a battalion thing. SWCS is essentially mandating all active duty captains to go to ranger school TDY and return after the Q Course is completed. I don't know how enforced that is, but that was the brief that we received numerous times towards the end of the course. I think this is a generational thing more than anything.

Blackrambo
10-21-2012, 17:56
How many of you QP's have your Ranger tab or have served in the 75th?

I think idle time is playing a role here. I know from experiencing the same thing not too long ago. The excitement of fulfilling a lifelong dream combined with loads idle time creates anxiety. It wasn't a bone head question when you look at it from the view of a young kid anxious to get started with his career in the military. I too used to come to this site looking for guidance on what my next move should be unaware of how foolish I must have looked to you quiet professionals. My message to this kid is shut up and learn. Since I have adapted that way of thinking I have been more focused on getting in tip top best shape and graduating college thats it. 25m target

SF_BHT
10-21-2012, 18:28
I think idle time is playing a role here. I know from experiencing the same thing not too long ago. The excitement of fulfilling a lifelong dream combined with loads idle time creates anxiety. It wasn't a bone head question when you look at it from the view of a young kid anxious to get started with his career in the military. I too used to come to this site looking for guidance on what my next move should be unaware of how foolish I must have looked to you quiet professionals. My message to this kid is shut up and learn. Since I have adapted that way of thinking I have been more focused on getting in tip top best shape and graduating college thats it. 25m target

This is a question for QP's not students or non QP's. Get back to reading......

longrange1947
10-21-2012, 21:12
Holy moly how did I miss this thread???

Ranger school is great, Rangers are great, they will break stuff in a heart beat! Problem is sometimes things don't need to be broken. Any CO that demands Ranger school for continuation in his command needs to be fired.

Pffft, are you 12 or 13???

Sorry somewhat flippant in answering, but damn, some of the statements by nugs are amazing!!! :munchin

Original question, is 75th good for SF, yes and no. Yes if you can understand that Ranger is a VERY small part of SF and no if you can't. For those that do not believe that we understand Ranger today, you will not make it in SF don't try.

Joshua.David
12-28-2012, 17:40
Somehow missed this entire thread as well. My .02 is STARTING off at Ranger Regiment is a thing to remember. It's a great place to learn and make some lifelong friends. Although I feel as if it is not a career path. It is a great stepping stone to move on to other jobs in the military. Seeing some of the regular army e4-e6 ranks, and comparing them next to untabbed e-4s from regiment.. It makes me wonder how the regular army gets anything done.