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The Reaper
11-22-2010, 17:17
Beslan or Mumbai, bad guys are coming to your country.

We are sending signals of weakness.

Soon, we will have hard decisions to make, and it will get harder if we do not make the right ones.

TR

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/11/21/INRG1GCFBT.DTL

U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
John Arquilla
Sunday, November 21, 2010

It took the 10 terrorists just 10 minutes to overwhelm Mumbai's defenses when they struck in November 2008. They were organized in five two-man teams, and the first waded into the crowd at one of India's biggest railway stations, firing AK-47s and tossing grenades. Soon more than 50 people were dead, a hundred more wounded. While this was going on, three other teams got out of cabs in other parts of the city and walked into two luxury hotels and a swanky restaurant, letting loose with guns and grenades. A fifth team stormed a Jewish community center, killing people and taking hostages.

After the initial wave of attacks, most of the Lashkar-e-Taiba hit men moved on before the police tactical units arrived, and soon five more targets had been struck, including a hospital. Bombs left by the terrorists at other points in the city as they moved around also began going off. It would take Indian law enforcement and military elements three days to bring an end to the crisis, by which time the toll of dead and wounded had reached almost 500.

Today, the concept of attacks by small teams at several sites simultaneously - what I have called "swarm" tactics - has caught on among terrorists. This month alone, we have seen such methods employed in the simultaneous bombings in Baghdad, where over 400 were killed, and in Karachi, Pakistan, two weeks ago, where small teams waged gun battles while a truck bomb went off at a major police installation. Recent intelligence revelations have gone further, suggesting that al Qaeda is planning to swarm cities in France and Germany in the same manner. And there is another hard truth: The next Mumbai-, Baghdad- or Karachi-style attacks could happen in San Francisco. Because, for all these warning signs, there is little evidence that our nation has made effective defensive preparations against assaults of this sort.

(continued at above link)

GratefulCitizen
11-22-2010, 17:36
Only way to stop this sort of thing is with an armed populace.

Dusty
11-22-2010, 17:41
We need to quit mollycoddling these vermin, get proactive and destroy them prior to the next (inevitable) attack.

greenberetTFS
11-22-2010, 17:46
Beslan or Mumbai, bad guys are coming to your country.

We are sending signals of weakness.

Soon, we will have hard decisions to make, and it will get harder if we do not make the right ones.

TR

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/11/21/INRG1GCFBT.DTL

U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
John Arquilla
Sunday, November 21, 2010

It took the 10 terrorists just 10 minutes to overwhelm Mumbai's defenses when they struck in November 2008. They were organized in five two-man teams, and the first waded into the crowd at one of India's biggest railway stations, firing AK-47s and tossing grenades. Soon more than 50 people were dead, a hundred more wounded. While this was going on, three other teams got out of cabs in other parts of the city and walked into two luxury hotels and a swanky restaurant, letting loose with guns and grenades. A fifth team stormed a Jewish community center, killing people and taking hostages.

After the initial wave of attacks, most of the Lashkar-e-Taiba hit men moved on before the police tactical units arrived, and soon five more targets had been struck, including a hospital. Bombs left by the terrorists at other points in the city as they moved around also began going off. It would take Indian law enforcement and military elements three days to bring an end to the crisis, by which time the toll of dead and wounded had reached almost 500.

Today, the concept of attacks by small teams at several sites simultaneously - what I have called "swarm" tactics - has caught on among terrorists. This month alone, we have seen such methods employed in the simultaneous bombings in Baghdad, where over 400 were killed, and in Karachi, Pakistan, two weeks ago, where small teams waged gun battles while a truck bomb went off at a major police installation. Recent intelligence revelations have gone further, suggesting that al Qaeda is planning to swarm cities in France and Germany in the same manner. And there is another hard truth: The next Mumbai-, Baghdad- or Karachi-style attacks could happen in San Francisco. Because, for all these warning signs, there is little evidence that our nation has made effective defensive preparations against assaults of this sort.

(continued at above link)

TR,

You know better than I that the majority of Americans don't really give a s**t about this until it's to late.....ie:9/11...... we'll only respond after the damage is done which of course is too late........ When will we ever learn?...........:(

Big Teddy :munchin

Pete
11-22-2010, 18:08
America is too big to place a cop on every corner, a SWAT Team in every neighborhood, Cemical/Bio Teams at every Fire Station.

Even though the politicians loved to hand out Homeland Defense Money for the most part it was pork. Passed out as pork and spent as pork.

So what are the solutions? A liberal open carry policy - but one still with a training and license requirement? A forward kick 'um in the ass and call them what they are policy? A combination of the two.

Neither is politically correct.

There will be an attack and there will be teeth knashing and wailing - and then the government with pass some gun control laws and investigate right wing militias. But never, never, never call a spade a spade.

Paslode
11-22-2010, 18:13
Only way to stop this sort of thing is with an armed populace.

That is not a bad idea, but Andy Traver is likely to leave Chitown for Obamaville and he wants your guns. Once that happens the BATFE will likely prosecute you for protecting yourself as they will see it as taking the law into your own hands.

Secondly, most of us regular folks don't have the training or haven't honed the skills we would need to properly and safely (as safe as a 2-way range can be) engage such an enemy.

A Russian theater or Mumbai Event takes little more than the blink of an eye and it is too late. I don't know of a city in my proximity that has the capability to respond to that type situation and add to that most of the people are back in the routine of a safe, worry free life. If it were to happen here, we would have a horrible situation on our hands.

lindy
11-22-2010, 19:06
A Russian theater or Mumbai Event takes little more than the blink of an eye and it is too late.

Agree the execution is often based on surprise and violence of action but the Achilles heel, IMO, is the pre-strike planning. The theater, the school, and even the city of Mumbai all had "long" planning that required coordination, target designation/financing, and commo.

How did LET get to Mumbai? How did the Chechens get to Moscow and Beslan? Could a strike team use Mexico as a launch point? Could they get weapons there too? Taliban control opium...drug cartels control Mexico...would the two ever work towards a common goal (money and power)?

I believe the only way we can delay the swarm-style attack is to go on the offense but heck, we cannot even get permission to expand Pred strikes in Pakistan!

The political will to unilaterally go deep into denied territory in order to strike our enemies just doesn't seem to exist and the focus seems to be on fixing the economy. So let's cut DOD since Iraq is over and Afghanistan will be over in 36 months.

AQ has always exercised tactical patience...and they return to what works. Just as TR pointed out, swarm-style attacks are common now. The attackers only stop when they have been killed by security forces. Seems like an easy choice to me.

The holiday season is almost upon us. Soon the malls will be full of unarmed and distracted Americans focused on other things besides survival because the USG claims they are doing everything possible to protect its citizens by using scanners and pat-downs. Hmmm...similar situations exist (crowded shopping centers) in Israel but they have dodged a mall attack. I wonder what they're doing (rhetorical)?

Oldrotorhead
11-22-2010, 20:08
I could be wrong but from what I saw in the Mumbai videos, and what I have read armed people could have reduced the damage and death toll. Some possible examples of places and times when armed people could have had an impact.

The video in the train station shows one terrorist walkiing unchallanged through the terminal, one or more armed civilian could have stopped him with some training or luck.

On the streets I don't know and have no information to make a guess about what may have helped.

The public areas of the hotel had both guests and employeed they had no way to defend themselves. Armed guests and or employees could have reduced the number of attackers or at least forced them to slow down or change plans.

Hotel guests in their rooms if armed could barricade the entry points and offered a last line of defense. Even armored attackers offer targest when slowed down by barricades and obsticles.

I am untrained in close combat, and could easily have this all wrong, but my opinion is that any action is better than rolling over to die.

Jgood
11-22-2010, 21:08
I have a feeling that "when" this attacks accure it will be on our softest of soft targets that will have the most emotional responses places like Schools(of all Levels) and churches.

Peregrino
11-22-2010, 22:07
I have a feeling that "when" this attacks accure it will be on our softest of soft targets that will have the most emotional responses places like Schools(of all Levels) and chruches.

I have a feeling that "when" this attack occurs the aftermath will make the TSA "patdowns" look positively benevolent. Prepare to endure what the bleating sheep will demand the government provide in the illusory name of safety.

rdret1
11-22-2010, 22:20
Agreed it is just a matter of time. When this tactic is used in Europe, there will still be many here who think of it as an "over there" problem and "it can't happen here." These are the same liberal politicians who will try to push for more gun control on American citizens.

I think if that happens though, it will backfire, as that would be the catalyst to bring out the ordinary citizenry who refuse to be led to the slaughter. There would be a definite rise in so called "militia activity." People would be taking the law into their own hands as they would see how ineffective the government would be at protecting them and their families. It will be a scenario that I hope we never see, but I am not holding my breath.

mojaveman
11-22-2010, 22:22
Could a strike team use Mexico as a launch point? Could they get weapons there too? Taliban control opium...drug cartels control Mexico...would the two ever work towards a common goal (money and power)?
[/QUOTE]

Interesting point.

Are we going to see a much larger conglomeration of evil forces intent on destroying western civilization?

Paslode
11-22-2010, 22:22
I have a feeling that "when" this attack occurs the aftermath will make the TSA "patdowns" look positively benevolent. Prepare to endure what the bleating sheep will demand the government provide in the illusory name of safety.

We will hang our ourselves and the Government will have no issue supplying rope to assist us in the task.


Could a strike team use Mexico as a launch point? Could they get weapons there too? Taliban control opium...drug cartels control Mexico...would the two ever work towards a common goal (money and power)?



There have been reports/rumors of prayer rugs being found along our border with Mexico and of Hezbollah scampering across the border as well. Guns...if the Cartel can get them, I would bet others can acquire weapons as well. And lets not forget that even if some are crossing the border, we already had and have operating cells from various groups operating in our borders....which I believe Warrior Mentor mentioned before in other topics.


Here is a link to a map listing the groups and their locations:

http://www.investigativeproject.org/maps.php

GratefulCitizen
11-22-2010, 22:54
That is not a bad idea, but Andy Traver is likely to leave Chitown for Obamaville and he wants your guns. Once that happens the BATFE will likely prosecute you for protecting yourself as they will see it as taking the law into your own hands.


I live in Arizona.
What charge would the BATFE bring here?


Secondly, most of us regular folks don't have the training or haven't honed the skills we would need to properly and safely (as safe as a 2-way range can be) engage such an enemy.


<shrug>
I'm guessing their chances would still be better armed than they would be unarmed.

If something like this were to happen, it would be nice if Governor Brewer would hold a press conference reminding the world that Arizona has unlicensed concealed carry and that terrorists would stand much better chances in New York, Massachusetts, or even Washington, D.C.

Some of us are fortunate enough to already live in Free America.

CSB
11-23-2010, 09:15
And there is another hard truth: The next Mumbai-, Baghdad- or Karachi-style attacks could happen in San Francisco.

Well, if they are going to pick a city, San Francisco is as good a place as any. Definitely won't be any armed resistance from the sheeple.

Second best for a defenseless populace: New York, Chicago. Or anywhere in New Jersey.

MEMO FOR TERRORISTS

Places to avoid:

1 - Anywhere in Tennessee.

Sten
11-23-2010, 09:29
MEMO FOR TERRORISTS

Places to avoid:

1 - Anywhere in Tennessee.

Please add Texas and Indiana to that list

Paslode
11-23-2010, 10:00
I'm guessing their chances would still be better armed than they would be unarmed.



Yes and no, they are some that might be more of a liability to those around them in that chaotic scenario. I'll compare it to the hunter that re-actively shoots at sound and movement without distinguishing what they are shooting at.

Secondly, well intended gun carrier might end up in the cross hairs of arriving LEO's.

Ironically, as I type this all the schools are locked down due to a robbery up the street. There are approximately 8-10 schools in the immediate area and at any one time we have 5-10 LEOs on patrol.


Ideally, I think it would be advantageous if there was a program for citizens to work in conjunction with State and Local authorities.....just in case we have more than a couple robbers to deal with.

akv
11-23-2010, 10:08
MEMO FOR TERRORISTS
Places to avoid:
1 - Anywhere in Tennessee.


IIRC in some book, UBL asked John Walker Lindh how significant an impact blowing up the Hoover Dam would have on America, and Lindh replied where is the Hoover Dam?

Any place with CCW would seem more prepared.

DevilSide
11-23-2010, 10:35
I think if it came down to it people would start ignoring the gun laws, back in my old neighborhood where I grew up, alot of people I knew had guns whether it was legal for them or not. More people will realize that if we don't arm our populace, only the bad guys will have guns.

The Reaper
11-23-2010, 10:47
You give me a dozen trained, dedicated, and trustworthy men, 30 days, and a small budget and I will show you a plan to bring this country's economy to a screeching halt.

If they are willing to martyr themselves in the process, I can do several times more damage.

The underground and auxillary support structure is already established here in the Muslim community, or several other minority groups.

The bad guys understand this, and are biding their time, for now, and we have been lucky in stopping their plans (in most cases through their own ineptitude). So far, since the huge blow of 9/11, it has been amateur hour.

That doesn't mean they will stop trying, or not eventually succeed.

The magnitude of damage of another coordinated effort should not be underestimated.

We have to get serious about these threats. Thus far, we have been lucky.

TR

Jgood
11-23-2010, 11:49
So very true, Sir

We talked about this type of scenerio during Sage..Just look at all the problems the DC snipers caused and that was just 2 guys.

You give me a dozen trained, dedicated, and trustworthy men, 30 days, and a small budget and I will show you a plan to bring this country's economy to a screeching halt.

If they are willing to martyr themselves in the process, I can do several times more damage.

The underground and auxillary support structure is already established here in the Muslim community, or several other minority groups.

The bad guys understand this, and are biding their time, for now, and we have been lucky in stopping their plans (in most cases through their own ineptitude). So far, since the huge blow of 9/11, it has been amateur hour.

That doesn't mean they will stop trying, or not eventually succeed.

The magnitude of damage of another coordinated effort should not be underestimated.

We have to get serious about these threats. Thus far, we have been lucky.

TR

GratefulCitizen
11-23-2010, 19:26
You give me a dozen trained, dedicated, and trustworthy men, 30 days, and a small budget and I will show you a plan to bring this country's economy to a screeching halt.

If they are willing to martyr themselves in the process, I can do several times more damage.

The underground and auxillary support structure is already established here in the Muslim community, or several other minority groups.

The bad guys understand this, and are biding their time, for now, and we have been lucky in stopping their plans (in most cases through their own ineptitude). So far, since the huge blow of 9/11, it has been amateur hour.

That doesn't mean they will stop trying, or not eventually succeed.

The magnitude of damage of another coordinated effort should not be underestimated.

We have to get serious about these threats. Thus far, we have been lucky.

TR

What happens when they start using pickup trucks and SUVs as weapons in urban areas with large levels of pedestrian traffic?
Will ignition interrupts be required on all of our vehicles?

MOO-
Let the state/local gov'ts develop decentralized defensive measures to counter decentralized threats.
Let the federal government focus on offensive efforts in the terrorists' backyards.

The big guns should be pointed outward, not inward.

trvlr
11-23-2010, 19:49
Well, if they are going to pick a city, San Francisco is as good a place as any. Definitely won't be any armed resistance from the sheeple.


Being from the San Francisco Bay Area I've talked to a lot of my friends about this issue. Most of them have achieved what I feel is a realist state of mind on the issue. 'No matter how good big brother gets, some will get through, and we will have to deal with it, make adjustments and move on.'

Whether they hit Memphis Tennessee and kill 100 or San Francisco California and kill 300, I believe we should continue refine our police/intelligence branches yet continue to have a high quality of life. IMO the time where only military members have to accept early death as possibility is over. American civilians should be mentally preparing themselves for attacks.

rdret1
11-23-2010, 20:19
Being from the San Francisco Bay Area I've talked to a lot of my friends about this issue. Most of them have achieved what I feel is a realist state of mind on the issue. 'No matter how good big brother gets, some will get through, and we will have to deal with it, make adjustments and move on.'

Whether they hit Memphis Tennessee and kill 100 or San Francisco California and kill 300, I believe we should continue refine our police/intelligence branches yet continue to have a high quality of life. IMO the time where only military members have to accept early death as possibility is over. American civilians should be mentally preparing themselves for attacks.

True. There are many in America who agree and are doing that. They are keeping an eye on the news and world events and thinking critically of anything the government says. On the other hand, there are also many sheeple who yell that those preparing themselves are paranoid schizophrenics who need to be disarmed and corralled. They refuse to face facts and continue to live in their imagined utopia.

kgoerz
11-23-2010, 20:21
Could a strike team use Mexico as a launch point? Could they get weapons there too? Taliban control opium...drug cartels control Mexico...would the two ever work towards a common goal (money and power)?


Interesting point.

Are we going to see a much larger conglomeration of evil forces intent on destroying western civilization?[/QUOTE]

Anyone without a criminal background can get Weapons right here in the USA. Why smuggle them in. Six guys with Rifles attacking three different places in three consecutive days. Would shut our Country down. No one would go to any public places for month.

Paslode
11-23-2010, 20:26
True. There are many in America who agree and are doing that. They are keeping an eye on the news and world events and thinking critically of anything the government says. On the other hand, there are also many sheeple who yell that those preparing themselves are paranoid schizophrenics who need to be disarmed and corralled. They refuse to face facts and continue to live in their imagined utopia.


:D

Animal8526
11-23-2010, 20:58
Interesting point.

Are we going to see a much larger conglomeration of evil forces intent on destroying western civilization?

Anyone without a criminal background can get Weapons right here in the USA. Why smuggle them in. Six guys with Rifles attacking three different places in three consecutive days. Would shut our Country down. No one would go to any public places for month.



It's boggled my mind for a while that it hasn't happened yet. It's why I stay out of malls during the holidays, and if I have to go into said malls I carry extra mags.

The Reaper
11-23-2010, 21:09
I don't think we need to delve too deeply into the TTPs here.

The bad guys will have plenty of ideas on their own.

TR

Roguish Lawyer
11-24-2010, 01:50
I am amazed that this hasn't already happened. Too easy.

Nightfall
11-24-2010, 10:21
Well, if they are going to pick a city, San Francisco is as good a place as any. Definitely won't be any armed resistance from the sheeple.

Second best for a defenseless populace: New York, Chicago. Or anywhere in New Jersey.

MEMO FOR TERRORISTS

Places to avoid:

1 - Anywhere in Tennessee.

I'll drink to that one.

akv
11-24-2010, 12:28
I'll drink to that one.

IMHO I'd rather drink to our troops killing these terrorists anywhere in the world, than attacking any US city.

However there is logic to this notion, while San Francisco doesn't hold a monopoly on sheeple, it is near impossible for a law abiding citizen to get a carry permit. Last but not least ,like NY or Chicago, most people know where it is without having to use Google maps...;)

Dusty
11-24-2010, 13:29
IMHO I'd rather drink to our troops killing these terrorists anywhere in the world, than attacking any US city.

However there is logic to this notion, while San Francisco doesn't hold a monopoly on sheeple, it is near impossible for a law abiding citizen to get a carry permit. Last but not least ,like NY or Chicago, most people know where it is without having to use Google maps...;)

Roger that.

I live on a mountain with one dirt access road, a well, two vegetable gardens, a woodstove, abundant wild game and a pond, and I still carry condition one. I go to a small farm town once or twice a month for goods I can't make or grow, and I carry concealed, there.

In the big city, I'd be on "red" day and night, these days.

I'm with you; let's kill the terrorists anywhere else in the world and get back to living free and doing or saying whatever we damn well feel like doing or saying without having to tiptoe around Islamic BS.

Animal8526
11-25-2010, 23:19
I don't think we need to delve too deeply into the TTPs here.

The bad guys will have plenty of ideas on their own.

TR

rgr. I'll edit that post.

wet dog
11-25-2010, 23:37
MEMO FOR TERRORISTS

Places to avoid:

1 - Anywhere in Tennessee.

Add Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Idaho and possibly Montana to that list. I like Montana, but of late, it's more like San Francisco.

The Global War on Terror is being fought,... well, globally, so I've just signed a contact, (Phase IV, arming the populace). After mission completion, I'll turn my weapon over to the ODA commander in my area of assignment.

TOMAHAWK9521
11-26-2010, 00:35
Add Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Idaho and possibly Montana to that list. I like Montana, but of late, it's more like San Francisco.


I heard that about Montana. How in the hell did the Commie Party USA manage to set up their western HQ in Missoula? I thought Montana folk weren't too friendly to outsiders. How'd those douche bags get in there?

wet dog
11-28-2010, 18:24
I heard that about Montana. How in the hell did the Commie Party USA manage to set up their western HQ in Missoula? I thought Montana folk weren't too friendly to outsiders. How'd those douche bags get in there?

It's the "Jackson Hole dilemma", Billionaires move in, Millionaires move out.

Ted Turner and Harrison Ford had alot to do about Hollywood elites moving there, followed there closely were their minions.

afchic
11-28-2010, 19:23
You give me a dozen trained, dedicated, and trustworthy men, 30 days, and a small budget and I will show you a plan to bring this country's economy to a screeching halt.

If they are willing to martyr themselves in the process, I can do several times more damage.

The underground and auxillary support structure is already established here in the Muslim community, or several other minority groups.

The bad guys understand this, and are biding their time, for now, and we have been lucky in stopping their plans (in most cases through their own ineptitude). So far, since the huge blow of 9/11, it has been amateur hour.

That doesn't mean they will stop trying, or not eventually succeed.

The magnitude of damage of another coordinated effort should not be underestimated.

We have to get serious about these threats. Thus far, we have been lucky.

TR

When I was at NPS, we were enlisted by the State of CA to do an exercise to see if their homeland security guys could stop what we planned. Prof Arquilla was not part of the exercise (had he been things would have been much worse). In the end we took out the port in Long Beach and the Golden Gate Bridge in a coordinated attack. Pretty scary what 40 of us could divise.

I was talking about this type of scenario the other day in my office. My biggest fear is suicide bombers in shopping malls during the Christmas season.