View Full Version : What's a Degree Really Worth?
I found this interesting, especially as tuition rates continue to advance more quickly than do wage rates. As our nation continues to emphasize the value of education, I wonder what, exactly, we mean? When we advocate an educated population, do we gain much from someone with an undergraduate degree in math? How about someone with a degree in theater?
And, more pointedly - is it worth going deeply into debt in pursuit of such a degree?
LINK (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703822404575019082819966538.html?m od=WSJ_hp_editorsPicks#printMode)
A college education may not be worth as much as you think.
For years, higher education was touted as a safe path to professional and financial success. Easy money, in the form of student loans, flowed to help parents and students finance degrees, with the implication that in the long run, a bachelor's degree was a good bet. Graduates, it has long been argued, would be able to build solid careers that would earn them far more than their high-school educated counterparts.
iStock Photo The gap between pay for college graduates and high school graduates isn't as wide as has been reported.
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The numbers appeared to back it up. In recent years, the nonprofit College Board touted the difference in lifetime earnings of college grads over high-school graduates at $800,000, a widely circulated figure. Other estimates topped $1 million.
But now, as tuition continues to skyrocket and many seeking to change careers are heading back to school, some researchers are questioning the methodology behind the high projections.
Most researchers agree that college graduates, even in rough economies, generally fare better than individuals with only high-school diplomas. But just how much better is where the math gets fuzzy.
The problem stems from the common source of the estimates, a 2002 Census Bureau report titled "The Big Payoff." The report said the average high-school graduate earns $25,900 a year, and the average college graduate earns $45,400, based on 1999 data. The difference between the two figures is $19,500; multiply it by 40 years, as the Census Bureau did, the result is $780,000.
"The idea was not to produce a definitive 'This is what you'll earn' number, but to try and give some measure of the relative value of education attainments," says Eric Newburger, a lead researcher at the Census and the paper's co-author. "It's not a statement about the future, it's a statement about today."
Mark Schneider, a vice president of the American Institutes for Research, a nonprofit research organization based in Washington, calls it "a million-dollar misunderstanding."
One problem he sees with the estimates: They don't take into account deductions from income taxes or breaks in employment. Nor do they factor in debt, particularly student debt loads, which have ballooned for both public and private colleges in recent years. In addition, the income data used for the Census estimates is from 1999, when total expenses for tuition and fees at the average four-year private college were $15,518 per year. For the 2009-10 school year, that number has risen to $26,273, and it continues to increase at a rate higher than inflation.
Dr. Schneider estimated the actual lifetime-earnings advantage for college graduates is a mere $279,893 in report he wrote last year. He included tuition payments and discounted earning streams, putting them into present value. He also used actual salary data for graduates 10 years after they completed their degrees to measure incomes. Even among graduates of top-tier institutions, the earnings came in well below the million-dollar mark, he says.
And just like any investment, there are risks—such as graduating into a deep economic downturn. That's what happened to Kelly Dunleavy, who graduated in 2007 from the University of California, Berkeley, with $60,000 in loans. She now works as a reporter for a small newspaper in the Bay Area and earns $34,000 a year. Her father is currently paying her $700 monthly loan payments. "It's harder than what I think I expected it to be," she says.
"Averages don't tell the whole story," says Lauren Asher, president of the Institute for College Access & Success, a nonprofit group based in Berkeley, Calif. She points out that incomes vary widely, especially based on majors. "The truth is that no one can predict for you exactly what you're gong to earn," she says.
And that includes the College Board, which recently said on its Web site: "Over a lifetime, the gap in earning potential between a high-school diploma and a bachelor of arts is more than $800,000. In other words, whatever sacrifices you and your child make for [a] college education in the short term are more than repaid in the long term."
The $800,000 number, it turns out, was pulled from a footnote of the College Board's 2007 "Education Pays" report that explained lifetime earnings. The report's author, Sandy Baum—an emeritus Skidmore College economics professor who didn't write the promotional text on the Web site—says that $450,000 is actually a more reasonable estimate of the difference in lifetime earnings, something she's said in interviews for more than a year.
Steve Talbott, a journalism professor at Cleveland State University, who is researching the cost of education and student loan debt , says he urged the College Board to take down the "misleading use" of the $800,000 number a year ago. Others have voiced their objections to the College Board figure via letters and blogs.
A College Board spokeswoman says it doesn't have a record of when the content was written and that "it's possible that during an update of the content the writer misinterpreted the data within the report." She also says the text represented old data and reflected "a different methodology." The $800,000 figure was removed from its Web site in December, once the group learned of the error, she says.
bandycpa
02-02-2010, 10:17
nmap,
Very interesting article. I wonder if any of these factors have anything to do with the shrinking spread between high school graduate earnings and college graduate earnings:
1) The increase in "non mainstream" degrees. As you noted earlier in your post, a degree in theater is not as practical as a degree in finance.
2) The rise of the minimum wage. Businesses can only pay so much for wages, and the increase of the minimum wage means that high school graduates are earning more by default...not because of any further degreed education.
3) Unrealistic expectations from graduates upon entering the workforce. When I graduated with my B.S. in Accountancy, the median nationwide salary was $40,000. My actual starting salary was much less than that. It improved as I rose through the ranks, and I was fortunate enough to branch out on my own. But, I expected a high salary right out of the gate, and didn't pay attention to what the market bore in my area. I believe a lot of other graduates do the same thing.
Bandy
CPTAUSRET
02-02-2010, 10:27
While I understand the intent of the article, I did not pursue a college degree based upon anticipated financial returns...
My wife who is an M.D., Ph.D., was not considering eventual monetary reimbursements during her numerous years of schooling. After teaching as an Eng Lit Prof for five years, she realized that helping people was what she really wanted to do, and attended Med school.
Condidering all those years in various post grad/post-doc pipelines, she may never recover financially.
But she is able to benefit the society she lives in! In some ways similar to the core membership of this website; you guys don't do it for the money...
nmap,
3) Unrealistic expectations from graduates upon entering the workforce. When I graduated with my B.S. in Accountancy, the median nationwide salary was $40,000. My actual starting salary was much less than that. It improved as I rose through the ranks, and I was fortunate enough to branch out on my own. But, I expected a high salary right out of the gate, and didn't pay attention to what the market bore in my area. I believe a lot of other graduates do the same thing.
Bandy
I agree with this. But it also depends what kind of company you work for as well. There is a difference between a professional degree and a normal degree ie history, english, political science and such. If you have an engineering degree, construction management degree or accounting, you will make more than someone who graduated with a history degree, ie myself.
I have a buddy who graduted with a construction management degree a semester before me, I graduated with history. He is making twice as much as me. Why? I think its the field of work he is in and what he does. Me, its the company I chose to work for, they start everyone off at the bottom and you work your way up. In the field I work in you have to start off at the bottom in order to understand everything and to be successful.
College is getting expensive, almost ridiculous. My wife went to hair school, $10k it cost her, my degree cost $30k. She does very well. I do not think a degree is worth what it is right when you graduate, but 5 to 10 years down the road, yes, it is worth it.
I am an avid believer of higher education and that it will bring you greater opportunities throughout your life, but alot of it has to do with yourself as well. Its how I was brought up and its what I believe.
PedOncoDoc
02-02-2010, 12:10
Docs such as myself will typically put themselves $150k+ in debt to make $35k-$45k for the first 3-6 years after graduation. Primary care providers typically make $100k-$150k annually.
Sacamuelas
02-02-2010, 14:10
Docs such as myself will typically put themselves $150k+ in debt to make $35k-$45k for the first 3-6 years after graduation. Primary care providers typically make $100k-$150k annually.
MD's pay their dues.... No doubt about it.
I have always believed education of any type is better than ignorance.
Entire postFor what my $0.02 are worth, I agree.
The skills I've acquired in the academic environment and continue to develop enable me to help people and organizations in ways that extend beyond my areas of expertise. I agree with this. But it also depends what kind of company you work for as well. There is a difference between a professional degree and a normal degree ie history, english, political science and such. If you have an engineering degree, construction management degree or accounting, you will make more than someone who graduated with a history degree, ie myself.Flashback to 1998.
"BUT I'M NOT BITTER," said the guy in graduate school when he found out how much an ex g/f with a B.S. in environmental engineering was making in her first job.:eek::mad::(:p
1 degree = 17.77 mils.
Richard
bandycpa
02-02-2010, 14:49
1 degree = 17.77 mils.
Richard
1 degree = .0175 radians :D
On a related note, we've went off on a *tangent* from the original discussion.
Bandy
On a related note, we've went off on a *tangent* from the original discussion.
Upon 'deflection' - it offers one a whole new 'angle' for consideration.
Richard
bandycpa
02-02-2010, 15:33
Upon 'deflection' - it offers one a whole new 'angle' for consideration.
Richard
That was 'acute'. You win. :D
Bandy
HisDisciple
02-02-2010, 15:44
I received a degree, but only help to join the military (I know I will get laughed to scorn on this)
I feel that my International Relations degree is totally worthless, I want to serve as an enlisted man and not serve as an officer. I have always asked myself, how can I lead if I have never done what this man has done?
Unfortunetly, I didn't do my research before I went to college, and didn't figure out the rudiments of the pipeline until my Jr. year.
I would have been better prepared to see what major classes and books are required for a degree and then go to the library and read those same books.
as I did with arabic, that they didn't teach at my university, there is no excuse for not being educated. Self Inititive.
I'm hoping someday it will be worth it, because I could have been serving with the Best by now.:mad:
That was 'acute'.
Well...sometimes I can be 'right'...but have been known to be rather 'obtuse' upon occasion. ;)
Richard
My degree got me SPC-4 pay on enlistment... I haven't used it for much else.
Triman19
02-02-2010, 17:25
"The educated differ from the uneducated as much as the living from the dead."
Best Undergrad College Degrees By Salary - Full List
Best Undergrad College Degrees By Salary Starting Median Salary Mid-Career Median Salary
Aerospace Engineering $59,600 $109,000
Chemical Engineering $65,700 $107,000
Computer Engineering $61,700 $105,000
Electrical Engineering $60,200 $102,000
Economics $50,200 $101,000
Physics $51,100 $98,800
Mechanical Engineering $58,900 $98,300
Computer Science $56,400 $97,400
Industrial Engineering $57,100 $95,000
Environmental Engineering $53,400 $94,500
Statistics $48,600 $94,500
Biochemistry $41,700 $94,200
Mathematics $47,000 $93,600
Civil Engineering $55,100 $93,000
Construction Management $53,400 $89,600
Finance $48,500 $89,400
Management Information Systems $51,900 $87,200
Computing and Information Systems $50,900 $86,700
Geology $45,100 $84,200
Chemistry $42,900 $82,300
Marketing $41,500 $81,500
International Relations $41,400 $80,500
Industrial Technology $49,500 $79,600
Environmental Science $43,300 $78,700
Architecture $42,900 $78,300
International Business $41,900 $77,800
Accounting $46,500 $77,600
Political Science $41,300 $77,300
Urban Planning $43,300 $77,000
Philosophy $40,000 $76,700
Information Technology $49,400 $75,200
Zoology $37,000 $74,400
Occupational Therapy $61,300 $73,400
Microbiology $39,800 $73,200
Business Administration $42,900 $73,000
Business Management $43,300 $72,100
Advertising $36,900 $71,800
Biology $39,500 $71,800
Film Production $38,200 $71,800
Landscape Architecture $43,100 $70,800
History $38,800 $70,000
Health Sciences $37,800 $69,600
Geography $40,400 $69,300
Nursing $54,900 $69,000
Communications $38,700 $68,400
Radio and Television $34,000 $67,000
English $37,800 $66,900
Agriculture $40,900 $66,700
Hotel Business Management $37,400 $66,400
Journalism $36,300 $65,300
Forestry $39,700 $64,200
Anthropology $37,600 $63,200
Fashion Design $36,700 $62,800
Public Relations $36,700 $62,600
Art History $36,300 $62,400
Health Care Administration $37,900 $61,000
Psychology $36,000 $61,000
Interior Design $35,700 $59,900
Human Resources $37,800 $59,600
Graphic Design $36,000 $59,400
Criminal Justice $35,900 $59,300
Medical Technology $46,600 $58,400
Foods and Nutrition $41,700 $58,200
Sociology $36,500 $57,900
Religious Studies $35,300 $57,500
Drama $35,600 $56,600
Fine Arts $35,800 $56,300
Hospitality and Tourism $37,000 $54,300
Education $36,200 $54,100
Horticulture $37,200 $53,400
Spanish $35,600 $52,600
Music $34,000 $52,000
Theology $34,800 $51,500
Elementary Education $33,000 $42,400
Social Work $33,400 $41,600
Methodology
MBA in Finance from Harvard BS, Penn Wharton, NYU Stern working for Goldman...Priceless
Almost forgot
Stratification and other social demographic will also affect perception of value. Who do you hire the USMA grad, or the one with the same degree in engineering from Temple???
It's interesting, I think, that the reason people give for getting a degree involves something such as intellectual satisfaction or the ability to make a greater contribution to society. The reason is not money. As I peruse the list offered by Penn, it occurs to me that the low end salaries of a number of degrees can be surpassed by a bright and motivated high-school graduate in the right field.
And yet, much of the marketing of a college education emphasizes earning capacity. This, in turn, goes back some decades - when the earnings numbers were used to change the notion that higher education was a public good (in other words, a more informed and engaged citizenry) to primarily a private good (or, more pointedly - you make more money.)
This, in turn, justified the change in public policy from one of keeping education inexpensive and affordable to one of increasing prices. And, too, incurring debt may be more justified if a substantial economic return results. If, however, the primary result is satisfaction , a substantial debt may not be supportable.
I think, too, that the expectation of higher earnings has distorted public policy further. About 24% of our population has at least a BA degree ( LINK (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_the_US_population_has_a_college _education) ). We might well ask whether a further increase will facilitate substantial growth in our national economy. And yet, the emphasis on greater spending (some might say "investment") on and in education is based on the idea that it will ultimately produce higher incomes. I wonder.
Oh, well. Let the good times roll, I guess.
bandycpa
02-02-2010, 19:24
nmap,
It may have been my generation that started the switch from "the betterment of society" to "the betterment of our earnings" as the motivation to get a college degree. My Dad was a coal miner, and he made pretty good money. But, he told me from the time I entered school at the tender age of five, "Son, you're going to college." All the way through elementary, middle, and high school, going to college was the goal...so much so that my high school graduation was merely the next step to "13th grade" rather than the emotional goodbye that a lot of my classmates experienced. Needless to say, going to college was the plan from the get-go.
Dad's logic was twofold: 1) It would allow me to make more money after graduation so I could better take care of my family, and 2) He forbade me from working in the mines as he did (he knew it was dangerous and ultimately bad for one's long-term health). I didn't know what my major was going to be in college, but I knew I was going there. Dad (and Mom too) made sure of that.
So, I had no grand vision of bettering society at the time. My going to college was simply fulfilling the desire my Dad had for me from a very young age. I am glad that he put that notion in my head early on, for I finally "got it" while in school and found what I was supposed to do in life. Hey, somebody has to keep track of the numbers and the tax laws!
Bandy
Upon 'deflection' - it offers one a whole new 'angle' for consideration.
Richard
"I've never let school get in the way of a good education".
WD, yes it is mine.
Case in point, my 'family' had plans for me to attend West Point, earn an engineering degree and then move onto law school, Georgetown.
Never happened.
I opted for college, local state school, then after one year, enlisted.
While in, I attended school whenever occasion permitted. Boston College, MIT, Harvard Business, etc. My resume speaks well, but it is the "experience" that has always gotten me employed.
School, like anything, is an illustration of ones commitment to follow-through and complete what one starts. It is an example of commitment. However, it is a great vehicle, and if given the opportunity to attend school, I highly encourage our younger generation to complete.
I remember not so long ago, Denver, 1985, a young man, new out of school looking for a job, visits a local construction site. The Foreman asks, "Where did you attend school?" Young man says, "CSU, Ft. Collins, CO - I have a Masters in Art and an emphasis on Early European Architecture". "Sorry son", says the Foreman, "we're looking for PhDs".
The jobs of the future are those who attain a level of mastery in fabrication, building infrastructure and managing teams of laborers.
Be them here, Haiti or in space.
p.s., "Numquam poetor nisi podager". I only spout poetry when my feet hurt. - Ennius, Saturae
SkiBumCFO
02-02-2010, 20:55
"I've never let school get in the way of a good education".
Wet Dog always has a good quote!!
I am not sure they do much educating in Universities anymore unless you are looking for a specific vocation :( Wet Dog was in my office yesterday (pleasure having you stop by) and even though i have a masters degree he may have noticed there wasn't a single diploma on my wall just a map of the world and old SF artwork (Beasley and Belanger). When people ask how i got to where i am in life i say "everything i ever needed to know i learned in Kindergarten, and i didnt go to Kindergarten" In reality I probably learned everything i needed to know from my parents and from my mentors in SF. That said - if you are motivated, focus on the right classes and go above and beyond what the professor requires I do think you can get a lot out of a college education. If you want to learn a trade - acctg, finance, nursing, engineering, etc. you dont really have a choice you have to go but like anything in life be the best you can be, get into the absolute best school you can.
mojaveman
02-02-2010, 22:50
I have an undergraduate in Liberal Arts. I know a little about everything and a lot about nothing. It got me a job teaching business communications in Europe for a few years. I didn't make any money at it but it was one of the most interesting things I've ever done. I now work in management and do most of the critical thinking and communicating where I work. Higher education might not always pay but it sure can help.
armymom1228
02-02-2010, 23:03
I have been told I am too educated.. lets just say I have several bachelors and a masters of fine arts.. that and a buck fifty eight will get me a cup of cofee at the 7-11 any morning.
It's not necessarily what ya got, its what you do with it.
AM
6.8SPC_DUMP
02-03-2010, 00:07
Becoming fluent (starting at an early age helps I hear) in Cantonese, Mandarin or Portuguese is something that may increase the earning potential of your degree. Wish I had a better mind for it.
Maybe the Brits will learn to speak English someday. :)
Ret10Echo
02-03-2010, 06:10
A "degree"?....well I have found myself over time taking classes in subject areas that interested me and in spite of a certain level of randomness, that has served me very well. I am still seeking to make it official :D since I have managed to accumulate a very large number of credit hours but not in any particular program.
I wouldn't trade the experience since I have managed to pick the courses that fit the need at the time. Upon retirement a higher-level degree would have allowed for a higher-level of entry into the civil workforce, but that delta was closed very quickly. I believe that my ability to progress rapidly to be an "intersection" of training and experience.
What would a degree have been worth? Probably not a whole lot without the real world experience. The order in which one chooses to approach this may vary.
In reflection, I wish I had taken advantage of the tuition programs while I was on active-duty. It can rapidly become expensive out here on your own.
R10
HowardCohodas
02-03-2010, 08:42
Just a thought...
The richest man in the world left college without getting his degree to start his business. Two extra points if you know who it is without using a search engine.
Ret10Echo
02-03-2010, 08:51
Just a thought...
The richest man in the world left college without getting his degree to start his business. Two extra points if you know who it is without using a search engine.
Al Gore?
B.G.
HowardCohodas
02-03-2010, 08:56
Al Gore?
B.G.
No, grasshopper! or are you pulling my leg.
CPTAUSRET
02-03-2010, 09:12
Al Gore?
B.G.
Sweet!
ZonieDiver
02-03-2010, 10:46
It's not necessarily what ya got, its what you do with it.
A wise woman once told me that! :D
HowardCohodas
02-03-2010, 10:54
It's not necessarily what ya got, its what you do with it.
OTOH Is money an aphrodisiac? (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/HomeMortgageSavings/IsMoneyAnAphrodisiac.aspx)
Ret10Echo
02-03-2010, 11:05
No, grasshopper! or are you pulling my leg.
B.G. = Bill Gates :cool:
surfcolt
02-03-2010, 11:06
You certainly don't need a degree to be smart. Bill Gates is proof of that, but then again Bill did go to Harvard and is a genius and started his own company. 99% of the people are not Bill Gates.
What this article does not take into consideration are 2 things in my estimation.
1. There are companies and jobs out there that have a requirement for a degree. If you do not have a degree you simply will not pass through the HR resume NAZIs. In this day of increased competition for jobs you need every single box checked just to get invited to the dance.
2. The long term salaries are clearly not adjusted for. People with 15-20 years in a particular field who are upwardly mobile are doing far better than the statistics would bear out. I work in the software field. The stats would show averages at about 50-70k, however, my experience is that is the starting point in the high tech space. At my company the average salary is easily over 100k.
I would never recommend that someone put themselves at a disadvantage by not having a degree. It is not a guarantee to intelligence, riches, or even a job. But, it is a necessity, unless you are the type that can start and run your own business.
In this day and age of globalization we need "MORE" educated people, not less. People graduating college today are competing against people from overseas for that same job. Companies will invest where the talent-cost benefits come from. We don't need liberal arts majors, we need engineers, medical experts, financial experts and scientists.
Slantwire
02-03-2010, 11:52
We don't need liberal arts majors, we need engineers, medical experts, financial experts and scientists.
That's a pretty critical discriminator. The originally posted article did not differentiate between the electrical engineer and the History of 20th-Century Art major.
mojaveman
02-03-2010, 11:57
Just a thought...
The richest man in the world left college without getting his degree to start his business. Two extra points if you know who it is without using a search engine.
Most of the successful men that I have met in my life didn't go to college. They learned from the school of hard knocks. They succeded because they had common sense, they worked hard, and they understood business.
Dozer523
02-03-2010, 13:07
We Ameraicans do love the story of the self-made man.
Malcom Gladwell has written four books that explore sucess in America. The Tipping Point, Blink, Outliers and What the Dog Saw are his explorations of the phenomenom. I cannot recommend these books to highly.
Particularly, in Outliers Gladwell makes a very strong case that sucess in America has Who you know (Who can provide you with opportunities) When you were born (What opportunities were available to you) and practice (The magic number seems to be 10,000 hours -- regardless of your choice of endevor).
Bill Gates was the son of affluelnt parents who sent him to a forward thinking private High School just when Computers were coming into public attention. On of the other student's parent was part of a (to fail) computer start up. They donated a terminal to the school. They didn't care that their son and his friends took advantage of unused computer time at night. That is where Bill Gates got his 10,000 hours.
Of course IBM also told Bill, sure keep the software, we're a hardware company.
I just stumbled across his blog. I haven't looked at it much (but it will earn at least a temporary bookmark) I offere it for your review. http://gladwell.typepad.com/
Anyone had a plumber or electrician stop by the house lately?
How about a Heating and A/C guy?
Car worked on?
mojaveman
02-03-2010, 13:16
Anyone had a plumber or electrician stop by the house lately?
How about a Heating and A/C guy?
Car worked on?
Excellent point Pete,
I know a guy who owns and operates a septic pumping truck. He makes a lot of money at it too. It's a dirty and smelly job that no one else wants to do.
Car worked on?FWIW, the last mechanic I hired earned his bachelor's degree at Harvard. And like just about every other auto mechanic in Burbank, he was just getting by.
These discussions boil down into those who think having a degree is not such a bad thing and those who think otherwise. I think these discussions would go a bit better if there were less aloofness from both sides. YMMV.
Some of the smartest and most successful people I know have degrees as do some of the most moronic. (And much of the time, I put myself in the latter category.) Conversely, I've learned enduring lessons from men and women who never set foot on a college campus.
Knowledge is where you find it.
My rambling, uncaffeinated $0.02.
PedOncoDoc
02-03-2010, 14:27
Some of the smartest and most successful people I know have degrees as do some of the most moronic...Knowledge is where you find it.
I 100% agree. Some of the most valuable lessons/things I've learned were while working my uncles' farms during my summers as a young lad, and while bouncing/bartending/waiting tables during college. As far as medicine goes, most of the learning is on the job once you get out of the classroom, and some of the best lessons learned have been over a pint with older docs after a rough day.
Buffalobob
02-03-2010, 17:13
I grew up in rural Alabama and was born with a gift for math. I got a degree in physics just as the Aerospace industry crashed in the late 60s. My degree was totally, completely worthless. Nobody was hiring guys with a BS in Physics when you could get PhDs a dime a dozen. I made about $318 a month as a 2Lt in the infantry and people hated me for what I did. Just the times we lived in.
When I came back and got out of the army, I knew two things. I was really good at shooting people but there was no job openings anymore for that work :D and I was going to get a degree so I could spend some my work time outdoors. My choices were either going to Auburn University and getting a degree in wildlife management or staying with Bear Bryant and getting a degree in Environmental Engineering right at the peak of the environmental workforce build up.
Money to be made was never a factor in my decision on which degree. The decision was based solely on personal enjoyment of the work to be done. And I have immensely enjoyed it.
And yes, after I get through twisting a pipe into a pretzel it is good to have a plumber come who actually knows what to do with a wrench. :D
I do happen to know how to hitch up a mule and plow a field and pick cotton if need be.
HowardCohodas
02-03-2010, 17:22
http://gladwell.typepad.com/
Thanks much for the link. I am also a fan, but was not aware of the blog.
HowardCohodas
02-03-2010, 17:28
Most of the successful men that I have met in my life didn't go to college. They learned from the school of hard knocks. They succeded because they had common sense, they worked hard, and they understood business.
I chose "richest man in the world" to be provocative. Provocative, in the sense of encouraging Socratic dialog. Wealth, success and intelligence are not metrics devoid of context nor disconnected from values. YMMV
Surf n Turf
02-03-2010, 19:11
What’s a degree really worth
I think we should have defined our terms first in this thread – What is “worth”
I have reread the thread, and think it took “Degree” into 4 directions
Is a Degree an employment selection requirement
Is a Degree a money maker when you are employed
Does a degree make you “successful”
Does a Degree help you “learn”
Employment Selection Requirement
It’s a fact - Many jobs today require a degree (any degree) just to get into the selection process (especially at the entry-level). No Degree – No Job.
Other jobs require a “specific” degree to enter a profession. No specialized Degree, No Job.
If your preferred field of employment does not require a degree – No problem, you get the job.
Money Maker
See Penn’s post #16.-- In many cases, typically for those entering the job market, a degree or equivalent starts you off with a better “base pay” on which to build upon. Conversely, those that change jobs or careers later in life (with heavy experience, and a good known reputation) can make substantially more that those who have “worked their way up the ladder”. The HR Department will NOT approve a 60% increase in your salary, but they have no problem with a new hire at 160% of your salary.
Success
Much of the thread has dealt with financial success, because that is the yardstick we use in America. Supported by Dictionary Definitions --somebody successful: somebody who is wealthy, famous, or powerful because of a record of achievement. Impressive achievement, especially the attainment of fame, wealth, or power.
I’m not sure that is the correct tool to gauge success, or a life’s body of work. I tend to think that each person defines their own “success”, because like a fine diamond, life has many facets, and wealth, fame or power may not fit your definition. YMMV
Learning
Today opsimathy is not frowned upon, and we have resources never before available to view the greatest libraries of the world, read the great philosophers, study world shattering engineering feats --- and all for free (via the internet).
Does higher education in your youth make you more learned. Certainly in the sphere of your studies, and by osmosis the desire to learn. But is that unique to the University – don’t think so. Take a job as a roustabout on a Texas oil rig, or a short order cook, or a deck hand on a freighter, or a soldier – You are also more learned in those spheres of your “studies”.
Net – Net ---Success is what / where you find it. A degree or no degree, does not define your Worth
SnT
Dozer523
02-03-2010, 23:20
Learning
Today opsimathy is not frowned upon, and we have resources never before available to view the greatest libraries of the world, read the great philosophers, study world shattering engineering feats --- and all for free (via the internet).
SnT
That is a good new word, (been guilty for a looooong time), Thanks!
opsimathy.
1. a late education.
2. the process of acquiring education late in life.
opsimathy - 1656, from Gk. opsimathia "learning late in life," from opse "late" (related to opiso "backward" + opisthen "behind") + manthanein "to learn."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=o&p=9
HowardCohodas
02-03-2010, 23:31
That is a good new word, (been guilty for a looooong time), Thanks!
opsimathy.
1. a late education.
2. the process of acquiring education late in life.
I can't imagine the day when I don't wake excited up to learn something new. Until that day...
Just a thought...
The richest man in the world left college without getting his degree to start his business. Two extra points if you know who it is without using a search engine.
He actually left college after a year so he could play video games over at Atari and make a pilgrimage to India to find the meaning of life - he found it apparently - three years later, he started Apple.
ZonieDiver
02-04-2010, 00:20
He actually left college after a year so he could play video games over at Atari and make a pilgrimage to India to find the meaning of life - he found it apparently - three years later, he started Apple.
If the answer is "Jobs" - WTF happened to "Wozniak"????
Anyone had a plumber or electrician stop by the house lately?
How about a Heating and A/C guy?
Car worked on?
Had one over today in fact - but I have outsmarted him. I pay American Home Shield $350 a year just so I can pay this guy &60 to replace my Heat Pump Compressor - got to fight fire with fire.
So you laugh and say - you really paid $410 - so what I say. If the guy had come out and charged me $410 - I would have to ask myself if he was screwing me or not - should I get a second estimate?
No - I just don't care - I just say "Here's your $60, now go fix it."
If the answer is "Jobs" - WTF happened to "Wozniak"????
Didn't fit the question - he had two years of college before he dropped out :)
ZonieDiver
02-04-2010, 00:50
Didn't fit the question - he had two years of college before he dropped out :)
And now, he is the "forgotten man"! I hope he is counting his money!
In answer to the first question – what is a College Degree worth? Seems like the answer, per the responses thus far, are whatever you want it to be.
But, actually it is worth quite a bit – to prove that just limit your question to an industry that we all know and understand. The US Army:
Consider the entire population of the US Army – who makes the most money – HS Grads or College Grads?
HowardCohodas
02-04-2010, 03:55
In answer to the first question – what is a College Degree worth? Seems like the answer, per the responses thus far, are whatever you want it to be.
But, actually it is worth quite a bit – to prove that just limit your question to an industry that we all know and understand. The US Army:
Consider the entire population of the US Army – who makes the most money – HS Grads or College Grads?
Provided money is your sole metric of worth. I think that is the primary theme of this thread. You?
HowardCohodas
02-04-2010, 04:12
And now, he is the "forgotten man"! I hope he is counting his money!
Met Woz once. He came to talk to the Cleveland Apple Computer Club in the early 1980s. (My Apple II+ days :D)
Unlike his portrayal is the news lately because of his comments on one of the Toyota problems being software and not hardware, he was primarily a hardware guy.
His design of the disk drive controller was conceptually innovative in how data was recorded on floppies and extremely inexpensive to manufacture with the components available in those days.
I'm not saying this is the case, but my a priori expectation would be that he views all system problems as being software. :D As a software engineer I always blamed the hardware when things went wrong. Once I began managing multi-discipline engineering teams I realized it was all my fault. :D
HowardCohodas
02-04-2010, 06:10
I'm not saying this is the case, but my a priori expectation would be that he views all system problems as being software. :D As a software engineer I always blamed the hardware when things went wrong. Once I began managing multi-discipline engineering teams I realized it was all my fault. :D
According to news reports, sometimes it really is the software. :D Toyota Admits Design Flaw in Prius Brakes (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584768,00.html)
Dozer523
02-04-2010, 07:29
If the answer is "Jobs" - WTF happened to "Wozniak"????I think he drinks beer with Art Garfunkel. They tell mean stories about "their former partner, 'the bastard".
In answer to the first question – what is a College Degree worth? Seems like the answer, per the responses thus far, are whatever you want it to be.
But, actually it is worth quite a bit – to prove that just limit your question to an industry that we all know and understand. The US Army:
Consider the entire population of the US Army – who makes the most money – HS Grads or College Grads?
I am not sure how it is in the USA, but in the USAF, you are not going to make MSgt without a CCAF (Community College of the Air Force) degree in your chosen profession.
Provided money is your sole metric of worth. I think that is the primary theme of this thread. You?
Of course it is about the money. The 1% who actually don't want the money either already have too much - or they are Hells Angles.
One more twist. The sooner you earn the Colllege Degree, the more it is worth.
On average, the typical Kid who graduates High School, goes on to College, gets a degree - will typically get put into an entry level professional program. In other words, at a young age, he has his foot in the door. Wait until you are 40 and do that - you miss out on that early career development phase of your career - expectations are higher - you will never catch up with the 40 year old who has 17 years job experiance to your zero. You will be working for him - as I said, on average.
HowardCohodas
02-04-2010, 10:03
Of course it is about the money. The 1% who actually don't want the money either already have too much - or they are Hells Angles.
I believe you to be completely wrong here. I know quite a few people who have made many life decisions where maximizing the money they would earn was nowhere near the top of their decision making criteria. I include myself in this list.
Quality of life and living my values far outrank money in my life choices. I don't have a lot of money and I'm not a Hell's Angel. Go figure.
I don't think everyone should pursue an degree, not to say that an education is not inportant, but if everyone has one, then I believe some value is lost.
I can't beleive I just said that.
HowardCohodas
02-04-2010, 10:22
I don't think everyone should pursue an degree, not to say that an education is not inportant, but if everyone has one, then I believe some value is lost.
I can't beleive I just said that.
Degree inflation, grade deflation. Things that make you go Hmmmm. :eek:
LibraryLady
02-04-2010, 11:35
I don't think everyone should pursue an degree, not to say that an education is not inportant, but if everyone has one, then I believe some value is lost.
I can't beleive I just said that.
Agreed.
Here's the problem though. A college education as currently defined/developed by American society is necessary for many white collar jobs because it shows you've jumped through the same hoops as your predecessors to get the same place in life/business/society.
However, just because you have the degree doesn't mean squat when push comes to shove - ie. the recession we are experiencing. NOW they're looking for experience which they can use to winnow down the field rather than just education.
The times they be a changing...
LL - opsimath - got the Masters but no experience, hence no job. :rolleyes:
Dozer523
02-04-2010, 12:27
I believe you to be completely wrong here. I know quite a few people who have made many life decisions where maximizing the money they would earn was nowhere near the top of their decision making criteria. I include myself in this list.
Quality of life and living my values far outrank money in my life choices. I don't have a lot of money and I'm not a Hell's Angel. Go figure.
IME it is really hard to be completely wrong about anything, I should know because I've tried*. My reason For Living says I've come "pretty damn close" a few times.
If quality of life and living your values (ie. living the way you want) is your standard of measure then then you have to ask yourself, "And how do I pay for that life style?"
Money is the universal solvent of humanity. It's how we measure ourselves against each other. (Unless you are a Monk. but I bet even they have their own gold standard -- prayers answered, miracles instigated, private cell with a window?)
In education there is a theory that people are inclined to learn in a variety of ways. Musically, kinstetically (sp), spatially, categorically, some others. Quite frankly I think the theory (it's like 30 or 40 years old now) is a load of crap. It has become the excuse of all excuses to explain the student failures caused by a refusal to do the classwork and homework. (before you go all ", MY COW,MY COW, what have you done to my cow?" I will say that the various learning styles are great teaching techniques -- Do they remember when I sing? Damn straight cuz they know I might do it again.) But there are two categories that I do care about mathematical and verbal. Because: that is what the SAT cares about and the SAT is what Universities care about. and because the ability to communicate effectively and to accurately manipulate numbers is what the majority get paid to do.
The other reason I dislike the theory is that it has never been tested in a scientific manner. The author has yet to come up with a way to isolate a variable.
//the Hell's Angels got their start in Fontana California which, by happy coincidence, is where I got my first classroom.
* okay, MAYBE the Hasselhoff thread was "completely wrong.
I'd take experience any day over education unfortunately I don't think times are changing all that fast, at least not in rural NW Pennsylvania in fact I have found that some jobs that never use to require a degree are now. I have a daughter who will be attending college this coming fall and it’s not cheap, I just hope it pays off for her in the end.
Degree inflation, grade deflation. Things that make you go Hmmmm. :eek:
Degrees yes, but grades can still be high.
My father's generation, High School diploma could get you a "good job", while a colllege degree meant a "great job".
HowardCohodas
02-04-2010, 13:00
IME it is really hard to be completely wrong about anything, I should know because I've tried*.
I stand corrected and completely agree from personal experience. :D
The Reaper
02-04-2010, 18:03
The Angels have nothing against making money.
TR
IME it is really hard to be completely wrong about anything, I should know because I've tried*. My reason For Living says I've come "pretty damn close" a few times.
.......
//the Hell's Angels got their start in Fontana California which, by happy coincidence, is where I got my first classroom.
* okay, MAYBE the Hasselhoff thread was "completely wrong.
There you go - you see I was not completely wrong - I was at least 1 % right. You don't see the original One-Percenters checking out each other's Bikes for Alumni plates from UC Fontana. For them, life style is the whole thing.
I believe you to be completely wrong here. I know quite a few people who have made many life decisions where maximizing the money they would earn was nowhere near the top of their decision making criteria. I include myself in this list.
Quality of life and living my values far outrank money in my life choices. I don't have a lot of money and I'm not a Hell's Angel. Go figure.
Ok - I can go with Quality of Life - Lets consider the entire population of the US Army agan – who has the better Quality of Life – HS Grads or College Grads?
And, before you say anything, I will give you Sergeant Bilko and Elvis!
GratefulCitizen
02-08-2010, 17:35
A degree may or may not help you make a living.
You can make a fine living at UPS, if you're willing to work and stick it out through the early difficult times.
Drivers in my center make between 70-110k per year, with about 11-17k per year in medical benefits, 8-10 weeks/year of paid leave, and other retirement/fringe benefits.
We are paid by the hour.
My work center has 8 employees.
4 of us have 4-year degrees.
(Majors: industrial arts, liberal arts, political science, mathematics).
The other 4 had 1-3 years of college.
(Majors: engineering, chemical engineering, hotel/restaraunt mgmt, unknown).
We had a high-school dropout who worked for us for awhile.
22 years old and set for life if he was willing to stick it out for one year.
He quit.
A degree is unnecessary to work for us, but it is indicative of other traits.
craigepo
02-11-2010, 05:51
One other thought to consider: Attending college also allows a person to meet a lot of people. These people become effective assets for later networking.
It is good to have friends that are scattered around the business/political world.
GratefulCitizen
02-11-2010, 20:24
My goal is to build a huge company and become a billionaire captain of industry. Money is important to me, but not my sole motivator. I mostly want lots of it for toys, luxuries, and so I have time and ability to pursue my various other interests.
One guy I admire a lot is this guy (http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/03/banking-andy-beal-business-wall-street-beal.html) who didn't finish college, but has accomplished a LOT.
If that's truly what you want, then start building social capital, and remember the 5 laws:
#1 – Law of Value.
Your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value than you take in payment.
#2 – Law of Compensation.
Your income is determined by how many people you serve and how well you serve them.
#3 – Law of Influence.
Your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people's interests first.
#4 – Law of Authenticity.
The most valuable gift you have to offer is yourself.
#5 – Law of Receptivity.
The key to effective giving is to stay open to receiving.
(From The Go-Giver by Bob Burg and John David Mann)