bullpup M-14/M1A concept

[DbeforeD]

I was using my inferior google-fu skills and stumbled upon this.

http://www.shortrifles.com/index.html

Hit the search button and came up with nothing here.

I humbly request the opinions of the QP’s, M-14/M1A owners, and fellow gun enthusiasts on the matter of a bullpup design. I happen to like the ‘classic’ look of my squad scout in the black fiberglass stock. All I added was a scope mount with a 30mm Barska 2.5-10/56 and a replacement forgrip sling mount with picatiny rail fitted with a Nstar bipod. (hey, I do what I can with the budget I’m given) Buy the way Longrange, the website says they make a ‘sniper package’.

So, good idea or waste of time/ money?

I egress.

[rubberneck]

Looks like that rig would be loads of fun to shoot off your weakside if you're a rightie or for a leftie in general. I don't see what issue this stock supposedly cures but I suppose that someone is always out there trying to create the self licking stamp.

[jbour13]

Good concept, looks wild.

I wonder how it shoots. the M14/M1A series are good, accurate guns. Wouldn't want to degrade it from there for the cool factor.

[Streck-Fu]

Very interesting and seems like a work around if you already have an M14.

I was able to shoot the Kel-Tec RFB (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/rfb.htm) last month and really like the execution of .308 bullpup. I shoot southpaw so an ambidextrous set-up is necessary for me. The Kel-Tec ejects the the spent case through a forward tube like the FN FS2000.

[Peregrino]

Another solution looking for a problem.

[The Reaper]

Exactly.

Don't you have enough Chinese junk hung on it already?

TR

[longrange1947]

Trigger will suck, locktime will increase, accuracy will suffer as will your right ear.

Bull pups have a multitude of problems but the trigger problem is the greatest due to the length and flex in the trigger bar to reach the sear.

Cute and as Peregrino says a solution in search of a problem.

[DbeforeD]

Sirs,
Thank you for the input. I don’t have a need for any bullpup type rifle. The Kel-tec is out of the question because the house commander won’t give me the green light for buying a new weapon. At least not until she gets her nail kit or whatever. I can however modify the systems I already have. When I found this site, I was researching what I need for suppressing my M1A. I do need a cheek pad for the stock, other than that I am happy with it. As soon as I find a better bipod, I will replace the ‘Chinese crap’ hanging off of it. For now it’s all about fit, form, and function. I was just curious of what you gentlemen thought about the website. Personally, I think the quest of making older firearm models into a ‘tacticool’ toy is getting out of hand. A few weeks ago I found a tricked out Stoeger couch gun.

Link: http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_double_defense.php

As for my M1A, I am leaving it as is, with possible exception to replacing the cheap bipod.

I egress.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Is it Chinese?
I like it. and as to the trigger returns concerns and such...it's not going to be used as a sniper weapon. i think I'm really going to look at this on more.

[frostfire]

Trigger will suck, locktime will increase, accuracy will suffer as will your right ear.

Bull pups have a multitude of problems but the trigger problem is the greatest due to the length and flex in the trigger bar to reach the sear.


hmmm, the review mentioned "feels like your original two stage trigger" and "to be accurate (out to a couple hundred yards)" and "eases handling and shooting offhand." I'd like to know what their standard of accuracy. It'd be great if they would convert a match M1A, M118LR and then compare the 100 yards group side-by-side from before and after. The barrel length is unchanged, but can a bull-up design afford a free-floated barrel? If they can deliver all these (2-stage, sub-MOA,etc.), then I'm sold.

Master Rick, by how many db do you think is the difference for the right ear?

[longrange1947]

I don't know how many Db the change would be but all the bull-pups I have fired have sounded louder as the chamber is closer to the ear. As far as a two stage trigger, the trigger bar will have to be magic as the biggest problem with bull pups is the long reach from trigger to sear. usually gets junk in them and flexes as it gets more and more grime in the mechanism.

Know it is not a sniper rifle but even the battle rifles that I have played with have suffered some as a bull pup ergonomically. As far as accurate out to a couple of hundred yards, daaaammmmmm, most guys can do that with an M4 offhand.

Oh well, I look at it as another toy to play with. :munchin

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/item.aspx?PID=85754&w=PQ%2BJDyOLrQE%3D

Take a look at these. bullpups.
One is a sniper weapon..
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/rfb.htm (//http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/rfb.htm)

[Sabre2G]

Looks to me like it is either adapted to the SA SOCOM16/II Series M1A. Judging by the tritium front sight and the well thought compensator along with the top rail that replaces the old fiberglass heat shield commonly found on that style of rifle. I am a big fan of my SOCOM II in its mostly stock form. I don't think it would operate as well in bullpup configuration due to the long trigger mechanism, etc... If they have over come those problems it would make a great platform for target interdiction out to 400 meters or so due to the short length of the SOCOM series barrel (16.25in). Is it just me or does the whole pistol grip/trigger guard look to over the top and large. None the less it looks like it would be a fun one to shoot.

[rubberneck]

Last year at the range we had one of our guys have is AR's go kaboom from some bad surplus ammo (iirc it was Radway). He was shaken up and his jaw hurt enough to go and have X-rays taken. I wonder what would have happened to his face if he was shooting a bullpup and his cheek was right above the chamber as opposed to six inches behind it.

[Streck-Fu]

Kel-Tec addresses those issues:

The RFB is also the safest Bullpup ever developed because the breech is separated from the shooters face by two layers of 1.6 mm steel. In the highly unlikely event of a case rupture, gas expansion is directed downwards through the magazine well to protect the shooters head and face.

[Animal8526]

That RFB was a hell of a nice gun to shoot at dead horse... Until it broke. Lorax is trying to offload it now, apparently. Poor kid.

I'll cut the gun some slack, because I think his was ser # 115 or something low like that... But Kel-tec needs to sort out those reliability issues in a big way if those rifles are ever to be taken seriously. Great design, they just need to follow through.

Also, there's some talk on KTOG about accuracy issues using factory ammo... 3-4 MOA is norm, apparently.

Btw streck, nice to see you here man. Looks like you and I travel around (though not always in) similar circles.

[regular guy]

I understand the purpose for having a bullpup design for the M-1/14, as it is extremely awkward to clear close quarters/corners/dead space with all that barrel. It would be a huge benefit for shooters to have that capability. But here is my experience working that weapons system:

Doing mag changes on a M-4 is easy, for many reasons. 1: Mag well guides the mag in so you can do the change without taking your eyes off target. 2: Having the functions of the weapon, bolt, chamber and so forth right in front of your face makes immediate action drills cake. Bolt doesn't return forward? Cant your hand slightly left and take a quick look-see into the ejection port while looking downrange in your peripherals. It's all in front of you. Same thing with the M-14, but there are more things to consider. One being that under extreme stress doing a mag change on that gun gums up a lot of shooters. I have had to do a combat reload and my hands were shaking from the adrenaline. Getting that empty out was easy, putting a new one in took a conscious effort, lining up that catch just right and slipping the latch in seemed to take an eternity. If you ever have to do a stress shoot with one, you will have a slight idea what the feeling is like.

With that being said, I love having the action in front of my eyes to see it. If you get hung up loading with a bullpup, your problems just became compounded. Instead of looking down the gun, you are now looking down at the ground. In CQB, that's a death sentence.

Thank God the SCAR-H is inbound. Hopefully it answers these concerns.

[Streck-Fu]

That RFB was a hell of a nice gun to shoot at dead horse... Until it broke. Lorax is trying to offload it now, apparently. Poor kid.

I thought they took care of him on that....I'll ask him. Thanks for the update.

I'll caveat my opinion that it was great when I was shooting it... :p

[Justaguy]

3 quick thoughts about a bullpup M1A/M14...

First, it's already been done...Anyone whose old enough to have been reading G&A, SOF, SWAT etc in the late '80s-to-early '90s will remember the ad from some obscure company (the name escapes me, but now I'll have something to bug me for the next week or so...) selling "Drop-in" style bullpup stock kits for about $199 each. They had only a few models, all shown in the ad (which was ubiquitous to every issue of those old magazines, along side the ads for crap like nato switchblades, spetznaz shooting knives, and bushpilot wings)..mini-14/30, 10-22, M1A. A cosmetically altered for the silver screen version of that company's product was used as the primary weapon system in the mid-90's movie adaptation of Robert Heinlien's "Starship Troopers". Watch it again, and pause it on some close-ups of the weapons they use...you'll see it.

Second, If you bought an M1A/M14 to be an entry gun, close quarters work gun, or a modifiable high caliber compact, then you either bought the wrong tool for the job, or you're probably giving the wrong job to the tool. The M1A/M14 is a great battle rifle. It's strong, sturdy, accurate, and powerful. However, the M1A/M14 should be viewed as what it really is...a detachable box magazine version of the M1 Garand chambered for the NATO standard 7.62x51mm round (yes, very similar to the Italian Baretta BM-59).
Slap a bipod and a scope on it, and it'll go to town all day long for you.
Throw a sling on it as is and hike a mountain trail and you'll have the comforting feeling of knowing you can throw hot lead effectively to the next ridgeline over.
Take it on a North American hunt for any game on the continent (yes, Grizzly, Elk, and Polar's too...Even though I'd feel a little better with it's .30-06 M1Garand pappy...)and you'll bring home whatever you can effectively hit.

But to chop the barrel, slap on a gangster grip and a red dot and try to take a door with it? Seriously?

....Will it work? Probably, it's that good of a system, but is it the best tool for the job/ or is the job right for the tool. How many times have you seen your ol' lady pounding a nail in the wall with the ass-end of a screwdriver...Did the nail go in? Sure, but was it the "right job for the tool"?

Finally, If you're looking for a high caliber compact to do whatever it is you might need to do with a high caliber compact you're better off starting with something that was built to be just such a thing...maybe an H&K 51, or one of DSA's OSW FAL-variants, or just a simple Kalashnikov, or even an AR chambered in 7.62x39. Heck, at the ranges you'd be using a 7.62x51 compact at the TGT isn't going to feel much difference between 147gr and 168gr of speeding hot .30 cal lead punching it's way through them.

In summation, why go through such ridiculous legnths to take a tool designed perfectly well for one job and try to shoehorn it into another role that already has perfectly good tools available for it.