View Full Version : Man Tears Crucifix From Woman's Neck
Since when do Christian activists yell Allah is power and Islam is great?
Man arrested for 'anti-Christian' mall disturbance
Kiosk employee allegedly tore a crucifix from someone's neck
by Emily West
Police arrested 22-year-old Abdul Walid Hamid of Hayward on the evening of Wednesday, Nov. 4, after he reportedly tore a crucifix from a person's neck and scared others at Stoneridge Shopping Center.
Hamid, an employee at a mall kiosk near Starbucks, has been charged with battery, terrorist threats and grand theft.
According to reports, Hamid was yelling "Allah is power" and "Islam is great" while holding a pen in a fist over his head. Witnesses said he shouted anti-Christian comments, said police.
Lt. Mike Elerick of the Pleasanton Police Department said the man was not provoked and didn't threaten violence, but he committed robbery when he grabbed and broke a crucifix off someone's neck.
Coworkers told police that Hamid's actions were out of the ordinary and that he had worked at the kiosk for years. [Sudden Jihad Syndrome]
Police also said they weren't aware of a prior criminal history for the man.
"We had multiple people calling 911," Elerick said. "One female was crouching down and hiding from him. He definitely scared quite a few people."
Elerick said much of the man's speech was similar to the loud scene of the Christian activists who frequent downtown Pleasanton. The big difference, however, was that Hamid was on private property and had physical contact with someone.
"Mall management has the option of making a citizen's arrest on anybody and asking someone to remove themselves for any reason," he said. "If there was no physical contact between Hamid and the customers, with just his actions alone, the mall would have asked that he be removed."
Hamid was reportedly not cooperating and was arrested by force and taken to John George Psychiatric Pavilion in San Leandro for an evaluation. Police said the case would be forwarded to the District Attorney's Office for review and possible charges.
Hamid was arraigned Tuesday morning at Alameda Superior Court in Pleasanton on charges of battery, grand theft, exhibition of a deadly weapon and a possible hate crime. Deputy District Attorney Ronda Theisen requested his bail remain at $27,000.
Calling it a bizarre case, Theisen also asked that Hamid, who is still in custody, be ordered to stay out of Stoneridge Shopping Center.
Through an interpreter, Hamid requested a public defender and was scheduled to appear in court at 9 a.m. Thursday where he is expected to enter a plea.
http://www.danvilleweekly.com/news/show_story.php?id=2339
Surf n Turf
11-11-2009, 15:59
SJS – Spontaneous Jihad Syndrome
1 down yesterday in Virginia – How many more are lurking?
Religion of peace – ya, right :mad:
SnT
Making excuses for folks like Hasan and his brothers only encourages their cause......and I am betting it will be coming to a neighborhood near you in the not too distant future.
As precursors to Hasan, you had the guy who threw a grenade in a tent in Kuwait, a college student who ran his SUV into a crowd on a college campus and the Albanian kid who shot up the shopping mall just to name a few of the 'known incidence'.
It is all okay and we should show some compassion! You know they are all so misunderstood, they come from a 'Religion of Peace' and we should cut them some slack........:rolleyes:
That said, I am beginning to wonder how I would be portrayed if I attempted to hinder these peace loving folks from their misunderstood fun and frolic :confused: Hmmmm....Maybe I would be labeled a Domestic Terrorist.
Unfortunately, I fear their allies would call for you to be charged with something or other, no matter what. I also suspect they would abuse the civil court system to persecute anyone who defended a victim.
Rhetorical Question: Was the breakup of the multicultural state of Yugoslavia unique, or was it a suggestion of something more general?
Unfortunately, I fear their allies would call for you to be charged with something or other, no matter what. I also suspect they would abuse the civil court system to persecute anyone who defended a victim.
Rhetorical Question: Was the breakup of the multicultural state of Yugoslavia unique, or was it a suggestion of something more general?
Possibly ethnic, cultural and religious tension if that is what you are asking.
Possibly ethnic, cultural and religious tension if that is what you are asking.
Actually, what I'm hinting at is that a multicultural state is inherently unstable and liable to failure. I don't know that, of course - but the experiment is ongoing, and the results may be interesting.
Hamid was reportedly not cooperating and was arrested by force and taken to John George Psychiatric Pavilion in San Leandro for an evaluation. Police said the case would be forwarded to the District Attorney's Office for review and possible charges.
Hamid was arraigned Tuesday morning at Alameda Superior Court in Pleasanton on charges of battery, grand theft, exhibition of a deadly weapon and a possible hate crime. Deputy District Attorney Ronda Theisen requested his bail remain at $27,000.
You break the law, you pay the price. In the wake of Ft. Hood I'm amazed a violent guy screaming Islamic stuff in public doesn't get the tar smacked out of him by every guy in the zip code.
You break the law, you pay the price. In the wake of Ft. Hood I'm amazed a violent guy screaming Islamic stuff in public doesn't get the tar smacked out of him by every guy in the zip code.
Apparently, only emasculated men frequent the malls in California and they were all waiting for someone official to handle the situation and stop the bad man.
Actually, what I'm hinting at is that a multicultural state is inherently unstable and liable to failure. I don't know that, of course - but the experiment is ongoing, and the results may be interesting.
I wasn't thinking that in depth, but that is what I was getting at. The Oil and Water mix.
Rhetorical Question: Was the breakup of the multicultural state of Yugoslavia unique, or was it a suggestion of something more general?
Nmap,
I think on the question you are leading to, IMHO there is a big difference.
America is a melting pot of cultures and many immigrants came here for the freedom to escape the rigid societal tradition of their country of ancestry. It boils down to are you an American first? Someone once said you can move to France but you will never be a Frenchman. I don't know the Yugoslavian situation in detail but if they thought of themselves as Yugoslavians first instead of Bosnians and Serbs, Christians and Muslims it might have been different.
I'm not saying America is perfect, our Union survived a bloody civil war based on region, but a great deal of the world is so relatively provincial in their mindset. I visited Austria in school, and the folks there were kind enough to point out every Mcdonalds, since that is what Americans eat. They understood my request for genuine Austrian fare, but a week later couldn't figure out why I'd ask about Chinese food since I clearly wasn't Chinese.
Another example is the casualty list from Ft. Hood. That coward Hasan shot something like 43 Americans. If you look at their names there are folks from different races and cultural backgrounds but do we care that Major Caraveo was of Hispanic descent, or that Spc. Kham Xiong's family came from Vietnam?
No, they were all Americans and or soldiers and we mourn them. Hasan was a Muslim before he was an American, and clearly exhibited signs of this earlier on.
So respectfully, I absolutely disagree that a multicultural state is more unstable if they have the congruency to come together as something larger. Obama is a tool, but our diversity is a strength, America is unique, different, and exceptional partly because of this trait.
Nmap,
I think on the question you are leading to, IMHO there is a big difference.
America is a melting pot of cultures and many immigrants came here for the freedom to escape the rigid societal tradition of their country of ancestry. It boils down to are you an American first?
.....
So respectfully, I absolutely disagree that a multicultural state is more unstable if they have the congruency to come together as something larger. Obama is a tool, but our diversity is a strength, America is unique, different, and exceptional partly because of this trait.
Sure, you make some great points. And the different skills and talents may well add to the mix, just as you say.
But - notice that second sentence. The one about America as a melting pot. That used to be true. The functioning of that melting point transformed the new immigrants into Americans. Again, just as you pointed out.
Isn't it interesting that the notion has moved from a melting pot to a salad, where each component maintains its identity. (Really - I'm quite serious.). So the new groups may not be going through the process. As they maintain their diverse identities, they may not integrate into a unified whole. Perhaps some of the friction we observe is a consequence of that.
Possible? (shrug) I'm not sure.
Apparently, only emasculated men frequent the malls in California and they were all waiting for someone official to handle the situation and stop the bad man.
Yes Sir, I've noticed they aren't so much into steaks, military history, shooting, or the Dallas Cowboys out here.... which is one of the reasons I value this forum.
ghost--scout
11-11-2009, 20:20
Sure, you make some great points. And the different skills and talents may well add to the mix, just as you say.
But - notice that second sentence. The one about America as a melting pot. That used to be true. The functioning of that melting point transformed the new immigrants into Americans. Again, just as you pointed out.
Isn't it interesting that the notion has moved from a melting pot to a salad, where each component maintains its identity. (Really - I'm quite serious.). So the new groups may not be going through the process. As they maintain their diverse identities, they may not integrate into a unified whole. Perhaps some of the friction we observe is a consequence of that.
Possible? (shrug) I'm not sure.
I agree. It seems more and more in society, the media and in some cases the service, there is a push for people of different culture to retain their cultural identities as primary and push the American identity to the back. I respect everybody and their heritage but just because you or your family is from country A and I'm not does not make you superior to me and does not make me superior to you. I can't believe some of the people that get into the service these days. Its even harder still to stomach that gangs have infiltrated the military and continue to do so in what seems to be increasing numbers, or at least that's what I see around Camp Lejeune.
But - notice that second sentence. The one about America as a melting pot. That used to be true. The functioning of that melting point transformed the new immigrants into Americans. Again, just as you pointed out.
Isn't it interesting that the notion has moved from a melting pot to a salad, where each component maintains its identity. (Really - I'm quite serious.). So the new groups may not be going through the process. As they maintain their diverse identities, they may not integrate into a unified whole. Perhaps some of the friction we observe is a consequence of that.
Possible? (shrug) I'm not sure.
Nmap,
I hear you, events like Ft. Hood make it hard to stay objective, especially when it seems one kid consistently starts all the fights in the sandbox. I think you nailed it with assimiliation, immigrants or their kids become Americans through shared cultural experiences, cub scouts, school, etc. The danger to both the US and Europe IMHO are some of these sequestered Islamic communities and schools where these people grow up apart from the American experience. This is a freedom we enjoy here, but in this case it is spawning conflict and mistrust, I don't see much Amish terrorism.
It's Veterans Day, and I'm of the opinion history can teach us a lot. Hideki Matsui came up big for the Yankees in the World Series last week. When he was up to bat I wonder what folks would have thought the evening of December 7th, 1941, if they were told a fellow by that name would be a star for the Yankees in 2009.
It's Veterans Day, and I'm of the opinion history can teach us a lot. Hideki Matsui came up big for the Yankees in the World Series last week. When he was up to bat I wonder what folks would have thought the evening of December 7th, 1941, if they were told a fellow by that name would be a star for the Yankees in 2009.
Yes, that's true. At one time, post-Dec. 7th, people wanted to cut down the cherry trees in Washington because they had been a gift from the Japanese. Now everyone wants a Japanese car. Amazing what 60 years can do.
So who knows? Maybe the same dynamics will apply to other groups in time.
The only little problem is that the path to our national friendship with Japan and acceptace of the Japanese went through some serious and deadly conflict. I wonder if change - deep change - must always involve such battles.
The one about America as a melting pot. That used to be true.When was this period?:confused: The functioning of that melting point transformed the new immigrants into Americans. With respect, this overly broad generalization is not sustainable. While some immigrants were afforded opportunities to assimilate, others were not.
Moreover, one should ask if assimilation was an objective that various immigrant groups decided to pursue or if it was imposed upon them by other groups that had themselves formerly been immigrants. (We call them 'hot dogs' for reasons that had little to do with their inherent yumminess.)
I think the notion of "assimilation" needs parsing. Does America need its citizens to assimilate along the lines of language, culture, thought, social relations, religious belief, and gendered identify? If so, who decides what is mainstream and what isn't? Or will legal and political assimilation suffice?
When was this period?:confused: With respect, this overly broad generalization is not sustainable. While some immigrants were afforded opportunities to assimilate, others were not. ?
I was under the impression that use of the English language, Anglicization of names, and other such efforts were rather common during the 18th and 19th centuries. But perhaps this was not the case?
Moreover, one should ask if assimilation was an objective that various immigrant groups decided to pursue or if it was imposed upon them by other groups that had themselves formerly been immigrants. (We call them 'hot dogs' for reasons that had little to do with their inherent yumminess.)
My understanding was that it was largely imposed - or, at the least, strongly encouraged.
I think the notion of "assimilation" needs parsing. Does America need its citizens to assimilate along the lines of language, culture, thought, social relations, religious belief, and gendered identify? If so, who decides what is mainstream and what isn't? Or will legal and political assimilation suffice?
That's the real question - and it's one with a surplus of emotion and a dearth of real analysis. We might ask - what factors tend to divide a society (particularly ours), and what factors tend to unite a society. Furthermore, is there some optimal level of conflict, some level of dynamic tension, that promotes creativity, entrepreneurship, achievement, or other desirable outcomes, while avoiding (or minimizing) any destructive aspects.
Let us consider something like language. If one person speaks Russian, another is fluent in Mandarin, the third speaks Tiwi, and the fourth speaks Inuit, there may not be much effective communication. The Inuit speaker might have a difficult time talking to the Tiwi speaker about snow. ;) It seems that some commonality of language would add to efficiency of communication, if nothing else.
Ah, well. Where's an anthropologist when you need one? :D
GratefulCitizen
11-12-2009, 19:03
I think the notion of "assimilation" needs parsing. Does America need its citizens to assimilate along the lines of language, culture, thought, social relations, religious belief, and gendered identify? If so, who decides what is mainstream and what isn't? Or will legal and political assimilation suffice?
The problem isn't assimilation, it's factionalization and narcissism.
The problem is culture-wide and exists at the large and small scale.
It's what John C. Maxwell calls "The Bob Principle":
If Bob is having a problem with everyone, Bob is usually the problem.
MOO, Bob needs to adjust to living among everyone else rather than having everyone else adjust to Bob.
If Bob doesn't like this, Bob doesn't have to live among everyone else.
This concept works for groups of a dozen or groups of 300 million.
Those adjustments happen one person at a time.
I've often been a bit of an odd bird in many groups.
It's always much easier on everyone (including me) if I adjust to the group, rather than the group adjusting to me.
Simply chose not to participate in the group if the adjustments looked like something I didn't want to do.
Not rocket science.
Just don't see why it's so hard for some.
GratefulCitizen,
Very good point and true.
Apparently, only emasculated men frequent the malls in California and they were all waiting for someone official to handle the situation and stop the bad man.A lot of us are to busy working (Honk if you like me paying for "your" healthcare) too be walking around malls shopping.:lifter:D
Stay safe.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/11/12/robertson.london.radicals.cnn
It's a video and he tells immigrants that they are expected to contribute and uphold the British way of life and values.
BigJimCalhoun
11-12-2009, 21:09
.
But - notice that second sentence. The one about America as a melting pot. That used to be true. The functioning of that melting point transformed the new immigrants into Americans. Again, just as you pointed out.
Isn't it interesting that the notion has moved from a melting pot to a salad,
Salad is a great analogy. I have used all you can eat buffet instead. :eek:
dr. mabuse
11-13-2009, 15:04
Perhaps it's time to change the old adage, "It takes all kinds..." to
"We've got all kinds...".:D
kimberly
11-13-2009, 17:20
Sure, you make some great points. And the different skills and talents may well add to the mix, just as you say.
But - notice that second sentence. The one about America as a melting pot. That used to be true. The functioning of that melting point transformed the new immigrants into Americans. Again, just as you pointed out.
Isn't it interesting that the notion has moved from a melting pot to a salad, where each component maintains its identity. (Really - I'm quite serious.). So the new groups may not be going through the process. As they maintain their diverse identities, they may not integrate into a unified whole. Perhaps some of the friction we observe is a consequence of that.
Possible? (shrug) I'm not sure.
You hit the nail on the head.
Not only do people come into this country and keep to themselves, they segregate themselves further by establishing their own schools (muslims), open specialty businesses and cater only to their own, expect our public schools to accomodate them in their native language (Hmm, Hispanic comes to mind), live in exclusive neighborhoods comprised only of those in their likeness, etc..
When the United States was a melting pot, people came together and worked to become citizens with the same spirit in common. That American spirit is no longer what is sought. It's more individual, more selfish, more here to take advantage of the benefits of our freedoms and rights and to hell with everybody else.
armymom1228
11-20-2009, 02:43
You hit the nail on the head.
Not only do people come into this country and keep to themselves, they segregate themselves further by establishing their own schools (muslims),
This is bad how? I attended my own schools...they were called Roman Catholic.
Many ultra conservative christian churches have thier own schools and teach some pretty darn interesting stuff. I was a school nurse in a charter school that only taught american history one week during the entire school year..the rest they taught 'african history'. Then of course, we have the Jews who have thier own schools..
open specialty businesses and cater only to their own, expect our public schools to accomodate them in their native language (Hmm, Hispanic comes to mind), live in exclusive neighborhoods comprised only of those in their likeness, etc..
You just described the very very upper class white mostly protestant neighborhood I spent many years living in.
When the United States was a melting pot, people came together and worked to become citizens with the same spirit in common. That American spirit is no longer what is sought. It's more individual, more selfish, more here to take advantage of the benefits of our freedoms and rights and to hell with everybody else.
America is still a melting pot. Nothing has changed, just the people decrying a new group of immigrants.
PBS did a great miniseries on Immigration, it is worth the time it takes to watch it. It is an eye opener.
In turn the Irish/Jews/Japanese/Vietnamese/Indians and so on are going to ruin this country. Each new wave of immigrants poses thier own problems and solutions.
We are still a melting pot, we still take in immigrants for the three reasons people tend to migrate, religion, politics and economics. I have seen with my own eyes how some people live in other places. It is NO mystery to me why they left. This country, warts and all, is still the best thing going.
If you want to place blame for complacancy and self indulgence on the proper shoulders..that would be the baby boomer generation. My generation that can be said of.
kimberly
11-20-2009, 09:06
America is still a melting pot. Nothing has changed, just the people decrying a new group of immigrants.
PBS did a great miniseries on Immigration, it is worth the time it takes to watch it. It is an eye opener.
In turn the Irish/Jews/Japanese/Vietnamese/Indians and so on are going to ruin this country. Each new wave of immigrants poses thier own problems and solutions.
We are still a melting pot, we still take in immigrants for the three reasons people tend to migrate, religion, politics and economics. I have seen with my own eyes how some people live in other places. It is NO mystery to me why they left. This country, warts and all, is still the best thing going.
If you want to place blame for complacancy and self indulgence on the proper shoulders..that would be the baby boomer generation. My generation that can be said of.
No one is disputing that the United States is the great country it is.
I think the point being made is that not so many people come here anymore with the intent of blending with the American people in allegiance to this country. They stay loyal to their country and just live here to use what we have.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/mexicoflag.asp
"Photograph shows a Mexican national flag flown above an upside-down U.S. flag during a high school student protest over immigration reform.
TRUE"
I'm not understanding how you think this and other acts like it is melting into our fabric.
To me, they are not coming here to be American for the sake of country.
The Reaper
11-20-2009, 09:50
I don't think you have to be Catholic to attend a Catholic school. You do to attend a Muslim school.
I also cannot tell you if the people I meet and interact with daily are Catholic. I can tell you if they are Muslim.
None of the Catholics I have met have wanted to kill me or my wife and kids because of our beliefs. Probably, many of the Muslims I have met do.
TR
I don't think you have to be Catholic to attend a Catholic school. You do to attend a Muslim school.
I also cannot tell you if the people I meet and interact with daily are Catholic. I can tell you if they are Muslim.
None of the Catholics I have met have wanted to kill me or my wife and kids because of our beliefs. Probably, many of the Muslims I have met do.
TR
You don't have to be Catholic to receive help from Catholic Charities, that's for sure. Now I'll admit to not being familiar enough with Muslim charitable organizations to know if they will help non-Muslims; however, if I were a betting man...
Warrior-Mentor
11-20-2009, 10:21
You don't have to be Catholic to receive help from Catholic Charities, that's for sure. Now I'll admit to not being familiar enough with Muslim charitable organizations to know if they will help non-Muslims; however, if I were a betting man...
Here's your answer.
By Islamic LAW:
h8.24 "It is not permissible to give zakat to a non-Muslim, or to someone whom one is obligated to support (def:m12.1), such as a wife or family member."
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Sacred Islamic Law, page 274.
...but who are we to say that islam isn't a prejudiced ideology? :rolleyes:
But out of fairness, paragraph h9.7 states that "It is permissible to give charity to a non-Muslim (n: but not zakat, as above at h8.24)."
So the short summary is that charity is MANDATORY to MUSLIMS, OPTIONAL to Non-MUSLIMS.
Nice, huh?
armymom1228
11-20-2009, 12:18
I think the point being made is that not so many people come here anymore with the intent of blending with the American people in allegiance to this country. They stay loyal to their country and just live here to use what we have.
So it is okay for Americans to move to say, Mexico and Belize. Have huge expat enclaves and stay Americans in thought, word and deed. To keep themselves seperate for the most part from the natives? Referencing to Ambergris Cay, Belize and Montery/La Paz Mexico for three such examples of huge American ExPat communites.
I don't really have much problem with Spanish being a second language anymore. I once did, but then sat back and looked it all logically and it made a lot of sense. Especially here in Florida.
I'm not understanding how you think this and other acts like it is melting into our fabric.
I don't believe I even hinted that I approve of such action as you referenced. I simply stated that there are many people that never make it to the MSM notice that work to gain citizenship. I spend my tues and thursday nights teaching english as a 2nd language to those who are working towards citizenship at SPCC...no charge its a free class. The MSM likes to tout the most garish displays of anti-americanism they can find. It sells advertising.
We all need to remember we are all immigrants. My children have a far better claim than I do to being a true American. They are both a certain percentage Native American. I mentioned the PBS special, Kimberly, because you sound exactly like some of the people they mention in that Immigration series. So far, each wave of immigrants is going to 'destroy the US, they won't be citizens' and so on... a certian percentage never will. But hey, if they work here, they pay taxes, they spend money and they contribute. Thier kids are American if born here.
The history of the Cubans who left Cuba post and pre Castro is an interesting read. One of them became our Governor, one Governor married one (jeb bush)...the old cubans are NOT US citizens many of them, and never will be, have no desire to be. But many of thier children are, and grandchildren most assuredly are. It is a classic assimilation scenario.
To me, they are not coming here to be American for the sake of country.
Personal opinion, and in some case I agree. In others, we will never know but as long as they obey the rules we, as Americans live by. I am GTG and will welcome anyone who trys to be an asset and contribute to our economy.
So it is okay for Americans to move to say, Mexico and Belize. Have huge expat enclaves and stay Americans in thought, word and deed. To keep themselves seperate for the most part from the natives? Referencing to Ambergris Cay, Belize and Montery/La Paz Mexico for three such examples of huge American ExPat communites.
How much aid (financial, social benefits, etc.) do they receive from their adopted countries? Does Mexico offer Spanish as a Second Language for the children of expats attending Mexican schools? I don't know, maybe they do, but if I had to guess...
We all need to remember we are all immigrants.
No, I'm not. I am a citizen, born in the United States to parents who were also citizens and born here. I reside in the US. I am registered to vote, and do so regularly. I am registered in the Selective Service. I pay federal, state and local taxes. I served my country in the armed service until I was no longer able. I am in no way an immigrant, although my ancestors were immigrants, which I assume is the more accurate description of what you were trying to imply.
This is bad how? I attended my own schools...they were called Roman Catholic.
Let's not use the word "bad" here. Rather, let us look at maintenance of strict cultural isolation and the likely consequences. If a group maintains such isolation, then there is a possibility that they will identify more with the group and less with the nation - in our case, the U.S.
Notice that in your example of expat communities in Mexico that the isolation will tend to leave the residents disengaged with their host nation.
So - are there consequences to such a trend? Perhaps. As long as times are good and profits abundant, as long as problems are few and easy, the paradigm is not problematic. Change the environment to one of scarcity, and there is a possibility that individuals will promote group interests ahead of national interests.
The degree and nature of the sub-groups, as well as the expected national environment contribute to determining whether this is bad and to what degree.
You just described the very very upper class white mostly protestant neighborhood I spent many years living in.
I will suppose this means the top 1% or higher - net worth above $6 million. Notice that they will not be aware of (nor care about) a lot of other parts of the U.S. From their perspective, offshoring a factory may make good business sense. From the viewpoint of one of the wage-slaves working at the factory, the same decision can be devastating. Their decisions could strengthen China and weaken the U.S.
America is still a melting pot. Nothing has changed, just the people decrying a new group of immigrants.
My perceptions are different. Clearly, YMMV.
We are still a melting pot, we still take in immigrants for the three reasons people tend to migrate, religion, politics and economics. I have seen with my own eyes how some people live in other places. It is NO mystery to me why they left. This country, warts and all, is still the best thing going.
Let us look hard at the issue of why we take immigrants in. Keep in mind that they provide 3 things - a flow of labor to keep costs low, a flow of capital for those with means, and a flow of highly motivated risk takers in general. There are also costs involved.
The day laborer that works for little may also use a disproportionate amount of public services, thus permitting an employer to have a private advantage (cheap labor) while transferring part of the cost to the public. Those with capital bring money into the country, while also increasing the cost barrier to existing citizens. And risk takers may not limit themselves to accepted success channels.
Various humanitarian initiatives do exist - in these, a vocal and politically connected group uses their influence to provide assistance to their preferred beneficiaries at public cost. In essence, they can be charitable with other peoples' money.
Can this benefit the U.S.? In some ways, at some times, sure. That does not mean always and in all cases. And there are costs to the society that we should not ignore.
If you want to place blame for complacency and self indulgence on the proper shoulders..that would be the baby boomer generation. My generation that can be said of.
Boomers are a product of easy times. Times change. ;)
So it is okay for Americans to move to say, Mexico and Belize. Have huge expat enclaves and stay Americans in thought, word and deed. To keep themselves separate for the most part from the natives? Referencing to Ambergris Cay, Belize and Montery/La Paz Mexico for three such examples of huge American ExPat communites.
These countries want the income such people represent. It is a simple business decision - the expats generate a profit. One doesn't hear many complaints about rich immigrants. ;)
I don't really have much problem with Spanish being a second language anymore. I once did, but then sat back and looked it all logically and it made a lot of sense. Especially here in Florida.
Which means - the taxpayers must fund duplicate printings, special accommodation in schools, translators, and so forth. In addition, the lack of a common language means more opportunities for misunderstandings. Keep in mind that the sub-groups may have greater loyalty to each other than to any greater governmental entity. In times of plenty, that can work. In more austere times, I question its stability.
The MSM likes to tout the most garish displays of anti-americanism they can find. It sells advertising.
Although it may not represent a predominant attitude, clearly it does exist. I suspect it is rather widespread. Still, MOO, YMMV.
But hey, if they work here, they pay taxes, they spend money and they contribute. Thier kids are American if born here.
They may not pay taxes - at least some engage in the underground cash-only economy. The real issue is, do they make a net positive contribution? I'm not at all sure that is the case. Unfortunately, political correctness seems to preclude any careful analysis of the issue. That may suggest what the balance is.
Personal opinion, and in some case I agree. In others, we will never know but as long as they obey the rules we, as Americans live by. I am GTG and will welcome anyone who trys to be an asset and contribute to our economy.
Important points.
1) Obey the rules
2) Tries to be an asset
3) Contributes to the economy
Those three rules, if diligently applied, would eliminate many problems. Those who seek to evade any (or all!) of the rules above will surely create resentment - and may create substantial problems.
We ignore those rules at our peril, IMO. Also IMO, we are presently ignoring the rules rather badly.
Ambush Master
11-21-2009, 09:38
I have said it before in here:
We need an Amendment to the Constitution that DENIES all of the Rights Afforded by it, for those whose Ethnic, Religious, etc. beliefs prevent them from allowing them, to honor all of the Rights afforded to others by our Constitution!!!
Martin
kimberly
11-21-2009, 16:24
So it is okay for Americans to move to say, Mexico and Belize.
Do those Americans take over the schools, expecting whoever speaks to them to speak in only English? Do they drain the social system dry? Do they go into Mexico or Belize bulging in pregnancy, timed precisely to give birth in those countries so the child will be a citizen of those countries to reap their benefits? Do those Americans move into neighborhoods then bring dozens of their illegal friends in to live with them and sneak through the night so they don't get caught? Do those Americans work under the table so they don't pay taxes to Mexico or Belize?
Do Americans go into other countries and establish themselves solely to learn method and skills to blow up a portion of the country and it's people?
I don't really have much problem with Spanish being a second language anymore. I do, we speak English here. It SHOULD be required to communicate with AMERICANS.
We all need to remember we are all immigrants. ..... Thier kids are American if born here.
Those two statements contradict each other.
I am an American. Both sides of my family have been here for generations. You would have to go back a long way to find an immigrant related to me.
kimberly
11-21-2009, 16:27
I have said it before in here:
We need an Amendment to the Constitution that DENIES all of the Rights Afforded by it, for those whose Ethnic, Religious, etc. beliefs prevent them from allowing them, to honor all of the Rights afforded to others by our Constitution!!!
Martin
I agree.
Do Americans go into other countries and establish themselves solely to learn method and skills to blow up a portion of the country and it's people?
Some do, as it is Their job.
Most American civilians sleep peacefully at night because of such actions.:rolleyes:
Holly
Red Flag 1
11-21-2009, 17:27
FWIW,
In 1979 I was stationed in rural Germany. I chose to live on the "economy". When I negotiated my lease with my German landlord, I took a German- English dictionary and we did our business. All my neighbors were Germans. We shopped on the economy. My kids took riding lessons with the Germans. We visited with the Germans and we became life-long friends. The only thing we did on base, aside from my job, was to educate our kids on base. My family and I are better for having made the effort to blend in with our neighbors. Six months before rotation back to CONUS, I was stunned to learn most of the Germans I had been living among spoke fluent English. They thought better of us for having lived with them and adopting as much of the German life style as we could. I expect in our own little way, we elevated the image of Americans just a bit.
That having been said, I hope to expect the same from those deciding to live in my country; not all agree it seems!
My $.02.
RF 1
Utah Bob
11-21-2009, 18:03
I am an American. Both sides of my family have been here for generations. You would have to go back a long way to find an immigrant related to me.
What's your point? Are you saying that if someone's parents are immigrants they're less of an American? The soldiers of the 442nd RCT would dispute that.
These days many find it difficult to balance due vigilance and the principles upon which this country was founded without becoming xenophobic. There have been good non-English speaking citizens of this country since the Revolution. Not everyone, especially older adults, can easily learn a new language. Most do try, some do not. As far as "taking over"... from whom? Good Christian white European ancestry types?
The convenience store clerk who speaks Spanish, or Farsi, or Korean is not necessarily the enemy. Things change. When a society historically refuses to adapt and change, it collapses.
Nobody said being an American was easy. Like being married, sometimes it takes a lot of work.
A lot.;)
armymom1228
11-21-2009, 19:24
I do, we speak English here. It SHOULD be required to communicate with AMERICANS.
It is required for those who seek citizenship.
I am 13th generation American, my first language was not english. It was Gullah, I spoke it before I spoke proper American English much to the dismay of my parents. I still speak it when I get flustered or over the top pissed off.
Did that make me any less of an American?
Did that make me any less of an American?
Ahh, but what, precisely, is an American? Is it a binary condition - one IS or one IS NOT? Or are there degree of Americanism - shades of gray, if you will? Can one be 100% American? Or 93.7%? Or even 3.2%? :D
(This is an ongoing inside joke - it started when Richard noted I tended to reduce rich, interesting issues to a number...he's right)
If we suppose that one's deepest understanding of language lies in the one used under emotional distress - in this instance, Gullah - and if we likewise suppose that there is some standard version of American English (a questionable assumption), then, perhaps, you would lose a few points. On the other hand, your voluntary efforts to teach English would probably gain some points, since that behavior seems in line with "Americanism".
As for myself, since I don't watch the Superbowl, I'm sure I lose lots of points. :eek:
Dozer523
11-21-2009, 20:05
Ahh, but what, precisely, is an American? Is it a binary condition - one IS or one IS NOT? Or are there degree of Americanism - shades of gray, if you will? Can one be 100% American? Or 93.7%? Or even 3.2%? :eek: "ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS" - George Orwell, Animal Farm, :eek: indeed.
kimberly
11-21-2009, 21:03
What's your point? Are you saying that if someone's parents are immigrants they're less of an American? The soldiers of the 442nd RCT would dispute that.
Not at all. It was AM's argument that we are all immigrants. Immigrants move into a country from some other country. I was pointing out that I was born here. I'm not an immigrant. Neither is anyone else born here.
These days many find it difficult to balance due vigilance and the principles upon which this country was founded without becoming xenophobic. There have been good non-English speaking citizens of this country since the Revolution. Not everyone, especially older adults, can easily learn a new language. Most do try, some do not. As far as "taking over"... from whom? Good Christian white European ancestry types?
The convenience store clerk who speaks Spanish, or Farsi, or Korean is not necessarily the enemy. Things change. When a society historically refuses to adapt and change, it collapses.
Nobody said being an American was easy. Like being married, sometimes it takes a lot of work.
A lot.;)
A xenophobe? Nope. We have an array of folks I love dearly, no matter where they came from or how different they are.
We all need to remember we are all immigrants.
I am an American. Both sides of my family have been here for generations. You would have to go back a long way to find an immigrant related to me.
Some do, as it is Their job.
Most American civilians sleep peacefully at night because of such actions.:rolleyes:
Holly
That's completely different. I am well aware of those who do their jobs as you mention. That is a completely different context.
FWIW,
In 1979 I was stationed in rural Germany. I chose to live on the "economy". When I negotiated my lease with my German landlord, I took a German- English dictionary and we did our business. All my neighbors were Germans. We shopped on the economy. My kids took riding lessons with the Germans. We visited with the Germans and we became life-long friends. The only thing we did on base, aside from my job, was to educate our kids on base. My family and I are better for having made the effort to blend in with our neighbors. Six months before rotation back to CONUS, I was stunned to learn most of the Germans I had been living among spoke fluent English. They thought better of us for having lived with them and adopting as much of the German life style as we could. I expect in our own little way, we elevated the image of Americans just a bit.
That having been said, I hope to expect the same from those deciding to live in my country; not all agree it seems!
My $.02.
RF 1
Exactly. When in Rome... .
It is required for those who seek citizenship.
I am 13th generation American, my first language was not english. It was Gullah, I spoke it before I spoke proper American English much to the dismay of my parents. I still speak it when I get flustered or over the top pissed off.
Did that make me any less of an American?
Your point? My daughter speaks French. We have Spanish speaking family members. BUT THEY ALL SPEAK ENGLISH.