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California Father Refuses to Take Down Tattered U.S. Flag
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,536863,00.html?test=latestnews
"......But Haros, a Vietnam veteran, told his son last September that he'd wave that flag until he comes home from Iraq.
And a promise is a promise.
"I made a promise to him that it won't come down until he's home," Haros told FOXNews.com on Tuesday. "Well, it's still there. I feel if I bring it down and something happens to him … I don't know."......."
Two sides to every story. This is one of them. By the way - the son is back in the States just not home yet.
Me? I would have put up a new quality made nylon flag, made it his son's flag and after he got home put it in a triangular case for him.
California Father Refuses to Take Down Tattered U.S. Flag
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,536863,00.html?test=latestnews
"I made a promise to him that it won't come down until he's home," Haros told FOXNews.com on Tuesday. "Well, it's still there. I feel if I bring it down and something happens to him … I don't know."
Paul Haros is already back on U.S. soil after his second tour in Iraq. He and his dad spoke yesterday when he landed in Wisconsin to undergo medical checks and to relinquish his weapons. But Louis Haros says the flag won't come down until Paul returns to Fresno.
"I told him this flag protected me in Vietnam and I will see that it protects you," said Haros, a former master sergeant in the U.S. Army. "In a normal situation, I would've brought it down a long time ago."
Pete Sir,
What a great story! Honestly. There is a house here in my AO that has flown the same P.O.W. & American Flag on its lawn since I was a kid. I left home for almost ten years, and when I came back, they were still there. I still drive by it all the time, and am in awe.
That is 20+ years, and keep telling myself I should stop, and walk to the door and just say Thank You. But always I am thinking that it would not be appropriate...
???
Holly
... There is a house here in my AO that has flown the same P.O.W. & American Flag on its lawn since I was a kid. ....
The same flags or ones that look just like the original?
The same flags or ones that look just like the original?
Pete Sir,
I will take a picture of it and post if I am able to. The flags are very worn, and pale, but still in the same place, actually always in the same place, in the front corner on this lawn. They have flown there for as long as I can remember Sir.
Holly
Here's what US Code says of respect towards the flag:
-CITE-
4 USC Sec. 8 01/05/2009
-EXPCITE-
TITLE 4 - FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES
CHAPTER 1 - THE FLAG
-HEAD-
Sec. 8. Respect for flag
-STATUTE-
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
-SOURCE-
(Added Pub. L. 105-225, Sec. 2(a), Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1497.)
-MISC1-
HISTORICAL AND REVISION NOTES
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Revised Source (U.S. Code) Source (Statutes at Large)
Section
--------------------------------------------------------------------
8 36:176. June 22, 1942, ch. 435, Sec.
4, 56 Stat. 379; Dec. 22,
1942, ch. 806, Sec. 4, 56
Stat. 1076; July 7, 1976,
Pub. L. 94-344, (12)-(16),
90 Stat. 812.
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t01t04+11848+27++%28ame rican
How many violations of this code can you see every day - advertising, clothing, hats, stickers, etc.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Here's what US Code says of respect towards the flag:
How many violations of this code can you see every day - advertising, clothing, hats, stickers, etc.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Richard Sir,
It is kind of a poorer area where the flags I mentioned are on display.
HOWEVER, I will state with all honesty, that no matter what condition the houses surrouding the one I mention were in, this one was up to Full PAR!
Indeed, the lawn is manicured, the edges trimmed, and the paint is not chipped! I will make it a mission to take pictures of the flags for all to see, as they should. This property has kept the flags in good working order, for as long as I can remember.
Holly
...How many violations of this code can you see every day - advertising, clothing, hats, stickers, etc.......
You're right Rich, nothing to it, it's just a code not a law.
I'm going to start using my flag as a beach towel.
Anything goes.
Well, I cannot claim to be smarter than I am, especially when it comes to US Codes.:o
All I was saying was I knew of a lawn, with flags. They seemed properly displayed to me, an untrained civilian. But none-the-less, they seem to be displayed with honour.
Holly:)
greenberetTFS
08-05-2009, 15:20
You're right Rich, nothing to it, it's just a code not a law.
I'm going to start using my flag as a beach towel.
Anything goes.
Pete.
I maybe reading you wrong but I believe your PO about this!!! I also maybe be wrong about this but I see where the dad is coming from.......His son is home now so I think it's a dead issue.....But Pete step back a moment and think about how that man would have felt if his son did get injured or killed,because he did take down that flag...
Big Teddy :munchin
.....But Pete step back a moment and think about how that man would have felt if his son did get injured or killed,because he did take down that flag...
I'm not POed.
But your point is a woulda' coulda' . I'm glad his son got home safe. But what would the dad have felt if he kept the flag up and his son was killed? What if a bad storm came up and blew the flag to pieces leaving only a few tattered shreads on the line. See? We can "what if" the issue all day.
What if the son has a son and 20 years from now he joins the military and goes off to war for a year. Should that same flag be put up for another year's duty on the pole?
At some point the flag needs to be retired and I'd vote for putting it in a case over the fireplace.
Start a new tradition, take the case down once a day, put your hand on it and say a prayer.
But as Rich points out - the Flag Code is only a code, not a law, so everybody do what you want. Don't worry, be happy.
I fly a flag 24-7 IAW the USC - I will never allow a flag I fly to get anywhere near the condition of the one in the article and generally go through 3 flags per year - I give my old flags to a local Scout Troop to use in teaching their members how to properly dispose of old flags - I get upset over auto dealers or stores using the US flag as an advertising gimmick to attract 'patriotic' customers - I will not wear flag clothing - the only flag decal on my car is a 3"x5" decal in the lower left corner of the rear window and has no superimposed ad/college logo/radio station ID/etc upon it.
MOO - but this Dad's actions are disrespectful to everything he claims to stand for and for what his son is doing by serving this country - and I'll bet the son has something to say about it when he gets home and finds out. ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Just to highjack the thread
http://www.liquidshirts.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LS&Product_Code=PR-1&Category_Code=HumorTP
incarcerated
08-05-2009, 22:59
.... and I'll bet the son has something to say about it when he gets home and finds out. ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
The Fresno area has made more than its fair share of contribution to OIF manpower. Nearby Clovis has lost six young men in Iraq. They are good, solid farm people up there. I wouldn't challenge this parent's personal custom where honoring his son is concerned, especially if it was a first deployment for the family. If this is a wobbly as Mr. Haros gets during his son's deployment, more power to him. He could have done a lot worse, and probably just wants people to know where his kid is and what he's doing. If it were me, I'd have put up a new flag. What I expect will happen is that the kid will come home and see that flag, and say something like, "Jeese, Dad! Why didn't ya put up a better flag?!? Can't have it lookin' like that!" And then Dad will get the message.
Pete,
do they have that TP with anyone else's face on it?
Holly,
I think I've sen that MIA flag you were describing. Does Clint Eastwood live at that house?
Utah Bob
08-06-2009, 07:54
I go through about 4-5 flags a year here. It gets real windy. I never leave a worn flag up. I'll take it down and have a bare pole until I get a replacement.
I can empathize with the Dad's point of view though.
I think he should have taken the flag down when it got worn out and put it in a case for his son and then used replacement flags.
My Dad gave me a flag when I went to Nam. I got a chance to fly it when I had a HQ Co in the 1st Cav. Some asshole stole it a few years later in Florida.
My Dad gave me a flag when I went to Nam. I got a chance to fly it when I had a HQ Co in the 1st Cav. Some asshole stole it a few years later in Florida.
Bob - I'm sorry somebody stole your flag - I can appreciate the feelings.
When I was drafted, we received a small US flag and CA state flag upon induction. I kept them with me and had them hanging above my bunk in SEA because we only flew the host nation's flag at the camp. I now have them sealed and stored amongst my momentoes with explanatory notes to be passed on to my sons. I'd be upset if someone took them, too.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
dirtyshirt
08-06-2009, 09:04
I appreciate both sides of the arguement here,and the only thing I have to add is, at least he is flying our flag. How many other people cant even be bothered. especially in the Democratic Republic of California?
Yes, he should probably change it, and any of us would, and, after reading the story, he, a Retired Msgt, said under normal circumstances he would have taken it down long ago,so he does understand why the flap, but he promised his kid it wouldnt come down until he came home to California. And since the son is on U.S. soil,he will be "home" within a few days/weeks, so the neighbors should understand that he, a ret Msgt who was in VN,and who knows (presumably) propper flag etiquitte,simply made a promise to someone close to him and dos not want to break his word.
but, as I said, with all the hippies, protesters, college students, and democrats (:P) all throughout this great country who cant even be bothered,or dont care to fly the flag, at least he had the thought to fly it when others diddnt.I live in an apartment complex and I cannot affix a flag holder and fly a flag/flags (I can affix nothing, Sat. Dish ect, so it isnt just flags)
On a related side note: Even military members sometimes dont know/care about propper flag regs-back before I had any sense,and when they were one of the only games in town, I bought a Blackhawk pack,and it came with a U.S. Flag sticker with the flaming turdpile logo on top of the flag, and the "darkchicken" web address printed ACROSS the flag decal. Being a former USN SEAL, you would think he would "get it",but I guess just look at the company, their copy of others designs, and quality of gear,right?? Wants to hawk the fact he is a SEAL, but cant follow military customs and courtesy reguuarding flag regs, honor ect.
I appreciate both sides of the arguement here,and the only thing I have to add is, at least he is flying our flag. How many other people cant even be bothered. especially in the Democratic Republic of California?
I grew up in CA - we had a large flag pole on the ranch and flew the US flag daily. When I go back to the area, there are many ffolkes in the area still correctly flying their flags.
Yes, he should probably change it, and any of us would, nut he is just a regular guy, who until this happened, probably diddnt know anything of flag etiquette.
Guy was a vet - doesn't know? And now that he does know...???
but, as I said, with all the hippies, protesters, college students, and democrats (:P) all throughout this great country who cant even be bothered,or dont care to fly the flag, at least he had the thought to fly it when others diddnt.
Using your line of reasoning - I have more empathy for those choosing to not fly a flag (their right) vs someone who is continuing to show such disrespect for what it represents by flying that tattered flag.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Utah Bob
08-06-2009, 15:43
Bob - I'm sorry somebody stole your flag - I can appreciate the feelings.
When I was drafted, we received a small US flag and CA state flag upon induction. I kept them with me and had them hanging above my bunk in SEA because we only flew the host nation's flag at the camp. I now have them sealed and stored amongst my momentoes with explanatory notes to be passed on to my sons. I'd be upset if someone took them, too.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Actually, I'm kinda glad I didn't catch them. It would not have ended well.
http://www.foxnews.com/js/photoPop.html?2
Or Click on the Fathers Picture; there you will find a former SF E7
In order to view his full uniform you first click on the small image, it will pull up another image, click on that and Viola'... I say 350++missed that small detail.....
I think he has a CMB
It's over the flag has been replaced.
http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/video?id=6947401&rss=rss-kfsn-video-6947401
Richard,
I don't think I would call it disrespect. During the American Civil War, the Colours of the Company was flown, being tattered was a badge of honor from being in many engagements. I know times have changed and so has the rules for flying the Flag.
Because of the general attitude of malaise, indifference and hostility to our Flag, even if it not done probably, any display of the flag to honor our country, our members in the arm forces, or love ones serving is a big plus for me.
A comment on a Vet not knowing. Not all who serve, serve for many years, or had much to actually do with handling the Flag. Over the years, memory fade and what class on etiquette was given is forgotten.
I am glad the guy replace the Flag, as he should have had but his intent was noble in my mind though his execution was not very good.
If I knew the Vet, I would have bought a new Flag and gave it to him and tell him to pass on my thanks to his son who is serving.
I don't think I would call it disrespect.
It's what US Code calls it.
4 USC Sec. 8 01/05/2009
TITLE 4 - FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES
CHAPTER 1 - THE FLAG
Sec. 8. Respect for flag
-STATUTE-
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
As I said it's over, the son is home and the flag is gone.
But if you watch the video link I posted - the flag appeared to be in even worse shape than the first story's picture would have you believe.
Folks - if you are going to do this please shell out the bucks to get a quality nylon flag. It will last better and be in better shape to pass on.
Praetorian
08-07-2009, 08:42
It's what US Code calls it.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
The question then is, which does one hold in higher regard? The Flag Code or the U.S. Constitution? Since the Supreme Court has on several occasions held that the enforcement of flag codes is violative of the First Amendment (Texas v. Johnson).
If a flag code that outlaws burning a flag to express contempt for the nation is unconstitutional, certainly a flag code that says one cant fly a flag to express one's patriotism unless the flag is in pristine condition, is equally unsupportable. He is flying THAT particular flag because it has a higher meaning to him and his family and is conveying a message to his community and upholding a promise made. The flag is merely a symbol. A symbol that expresses a myriad of ideas when it is displayed. And the free expression of ideas should not be limited because of the condition of the object used to convey them.
If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable...
As I said it's over, the son is home and the flag is gone.
But if you watch the video link I posted - the flag appeared to be in even worse shape than the first story's picture would have you believe.
Folks - if you are going to do this please shell out the bucks to get a quality nylon flag. It will last better and be in better shape to pass on.
I believe that the fact is in tatters MORE conveys the message the father was trying to express. Its a metaphor and a symbol for the time his son was away. It conveys a passage of time that a pristine, never changing flag does not convey.
The question then is, which does one hold in higher regard? The Flag Code or the U.S. Constitution?
It's not the Flag Code - it's the US Code - which draws its authority from the US Constitution and provides the basis for our system of legal codes - and specifically, Title 4 which deals with the FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES.
Since the Supreme Court has on several occasions held that the enforcement of flag codes is violative of the First Amendment (Texas v. Johnson). If a flag code that outlaws burning a flag to express contempt for the nation is unconstitutional, certainly a flag code that says one cant fly a flag to express one's patriotism unless the flag is in pristine condition, is equally unsupportable.
USC doesn't say a person can't - it says they should not - BIG difference. ;)
USC, TITLE 4 - FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES
CHAPTER 1 - THE FLAG
Sec. 8. Respect for flag
-STATUTE-
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America;
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
He is flying THAT particular flag because it has a higher meaning to him and his family and is conveying a message to his community and upholding a promise made. The flag is merely a symbol. A symbol that expresses a myriad of ideas when it is displayed. And the free expression of ideas should not be limited because of the condition of the object used to convey them.
Which is why there are no laws against his flying such a flag and he wasn't arrested, beaten, etc. - people merely privately and publicly expressed their dismay to let the guy know how they felt about his personal expression of ideas.
Personally - I understand what he was saying - BUT - still disagree with how he expressed himself by using the symbol of our nation's ideals as some sort of personal talisman - BUT - it's his right to do so and I personally agree with him having it.
I believe that the fact is in tatters MORE conveys the message the father was trying to express. Its a metaphor and a symbol for the time his son was away. It conveys a passage of time that a pristine, never changing flag does not convey.
IMO - such a badly worn and tattered flag under such conditions is more a visual metaphor of an eroding, disunifying, tattering, tearing apart, rending, neglecting of our collective ideals for which our national flag is a symbol - and a visual representation that we aren't willing to make the effort to guarantee the continuation of those ideals over time...and disrespectful. :(
MOO - YMMV
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Praetorian
08-07-2009, 13:19
Personally - I understand what he was saying - BUT - still disagree with how he expressed himself by using the symbol of our nation's ideals as some sort of personal talisman - BUT - it's his right to do so and I personally agree with him having it.
Yep..... Hes free to do it, and his neighbors are free to complain...
The Reaper
08-07-2009, 14:12
It's not the Flag Code - it's the US Code - which draws its authority from the US Constitution and provides the basis for our system of legal codes - and specifically, Title 4 which deals with the FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES.
USC doesn't say a person can't - it says they should not - BIG difference. ;)
Which is why there are no laws against his flying such a flag and he wasn't arrested, beaten, etc. - people merely privately and publicly expressed their dismay to let the guy know how they felt about his personal expression of ideas.
Personally - I understand what he was saying - BUT - still disagree with how he expressed himself by using the symbol of our nation's ideals as some sort of personal talisman - BUT - it's his right to do so and I personally agree with him having it.
IMO - such a badly worn and tattered flag under such conditions is more a visual metaphor of an eroding, disunifying, tattering, tearing apart, rending, neglecting of our collective ideals for which our national flag is a symbol - and a visual representation that we aren't willing to make the effort to guarantee the continuation of those ideals over time...and disrespectful. :(
MOO - YMMV
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Devil's advocate here, considering absolute rules.
Should the Ft. McHenry Star Spangled Banner flag be destroyed?
How about the multiple sets of Stars and Stripes and Stars and Bars from our Civil War that are shot up and tattered?
How about the Iwo Jima flag?
The Apollo 11 flag?
Should we burn the WTC or Pentagon 9/11 flags when they are deemed worn and tattered?
Would that be respectful?
TR
Devil's advocate here, considering absolute rules.
Should the Ft. McHenry Star Spangled Banner flag be destroyed?
How about the multiple sets of Stars and Stripes and Stars and Bars from our Civil War that are shot up and tattered?
How about the Iwo Jima flag?
The Apollo 11 flag?
Should we burn the WTC or Pentagon 9/11 flags when they are deemed worn and tattered?
Would that be respectful?
TR
Which ones listed above are still flying?
Which ones listed above are still flying?
Or on public display as anything other than as part of a historical exhibition? ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
The Reaper
08-07-2009, 17:45
Which ones listed above are still flying?
IIRC, the 9/11 Pentagon flag and the Ft. McHenry flag were on display at the Smithsonian last time I was there. I have seen several shot up Civil War flags on display in museums.
However, that is not what the code says:
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
TR
If the father would wish to make the flag in question a historical display I'm sure no one would object or shout that it must be distroyed.
There is a difference between a historical display and displayed on a pole as a US flag.
but, as I said, with all the hippies, protesters, college students, and democrats (:P) all throughout this great country who cant even be bothered,or dont care to fly the flag, at least he had the thought to fly it when others diddnt.I live in an apartment complex and I cannot affix a flag holder and fly a flag/flags (I can affix nothing, Sat. Dish ect, so it isnt just flags)
While I was doing my undergrad I lived at an apartment complex that stated the same thing. The contract also stated that we couldn't display even stuff in our windows, including any flag.
While me and my roomates didn't affix one to the outside, we did put an American Flag up in the most visable window. We lived on ground floor too. My thought was, I'll go with your rule not to attach one to the building, but I will put what I want in the window I'm paying several hundred for each month.
FCW
Oh the irony. It seems the biggest critic of the flag was from a guy whose job in the military was flying flags. Accoring to the artical below, Louis Haros retired as a master sergeant with the Special Forces.
http://www.fresnobee.com/local/story/1570067.html
Military family's tattered flag angers neighbors
Father vowed not to take it down until soldier returns from Iraq.
Published online on Friday, Jul. 31, 2009
By Denny Boyles / The Fresno Bee
After more than a year of training and service in Iraq, Cpl. Paul Haros and other members of his National Guard company were welcomed home Thursday with a ceremony at Fresno’s Hammer Field Armory.
But it was another, smaller ceremony that held special meaning for Haros and the men in his platoon.
As his father and a crowd of 50 watched, Paul Haros and his fellow soldiers slowly lowered the faded and torn flag that has flown in front of his parents’ east-central Fresno home for a year, and replaced it with a new flag.
Faded nearly white and torn to shreds, the American flag flying in front of the home of Louis and Jessie Haros has drawn strange looks, and anger, from passers-by in recent weeks.
People have knocked on their door and done everything short of demand that the couple replace the tattered banner. One man even left a brand-new flag on the porch.
Louis Haros knows that sun, wind and rain have taken their toll on the once-new flag. But the last thing he means is to show disrespect. He said that his love for his son, Paul Haros, and for his country, have kept it flying long after the first rips appeared.
This week Paul Haros, a corporal in the California National Guard, is scheduled to return from Iraq. He served with the 82nd Airborne Division in Operation Desert Storm, and has served three tours in Iraq as a member of the Army National Guard.
Paul Haros, 39, hung the flag in front of his parents' home on Belmont Avenue 11 months ago.
Louis Haros told his son, who serves in the California National Guard, that he wouldn't take down the flag until his son came back from Iraq.
Jessie Haros and her husband, Louis Haros, a former Vietnam Green Beret, have received offers to replace their worn flag but are waiting for their son to bring it down once he returns from military service in Iraq.
"Before he left, he brought the flag over and put it up," Louis Haros said. "I told him I wouldn't take it down until he came back. I didn't realize it would get so bad so quickly, but I'm still leaving it up until he comes home."
The American flag, Louis Haros said, has special meaning to him. He served for two tours in Vietnam with the Army, then joined the Special Forces and retired after 22 years.
"When people have asked about it, I tell them I understand the importance of the flag, and then I explain why it's still flying," Haros said.
The explanation hasn't satisfied everyone, and even those who understand the story behind the flag say they look forward to it being replaced.
"That flag needs to come down and be properly disposed of," said John Southward, a former Navy signalman who lives down the street. "I used to use and maintain flags in the Navy, and I know better than most when it's time to retire a flag. In this case, it's past time."
Another Navy veteran, Bryan Walters Sr, felt so strongly about the condition of the flag that he confronted Haros, and later dropped off a new flag for the couple.
Haros said he thought Walters was going to fight with him over the flag, but Walters said he gets proud, and emotional, about the military.
"I'd been watching the flag fall apart," Walters said. "It had been getting more and more tattered every day, and it was just breaking my heart."
Walters listened to Haros' story about his son, and understands why the flag is still there. But he said he doesn't agree with letting a flag fall apart on a pole, for any reason. Especially when it reminds him of flags he saw damaged in combat.
"When you fly a flag like that, it reminds me of Vietnam, and that's a memory I don't want," Walters said.
Bill Kimzey, commander of Clovis Post 3225 of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, oversees an annual ceremony in which hundreds, sometimes a thousand, worn flags are retired by burning them.
Kimzey said he would never fly a torn flag, for any reason.
"I can certainly understand the father's sentiment, but at the same time you want a proper flag flying," Kimzey said. "I'd recommend preserving the torn flag until his son comes home, but flying a proper flag."
Federal law governs how flags should be flown. That law, part of the United States Code, does not require worn flags to be replaced, however. Instead, the code has a general rule that "no disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America."
Haros said he doesn't believe he is disrespecting the flag, and that he's as anxious as his neighbors for the flag to be replaced, because it will mean his son is home safe.
"When you see a better flag up there," Haros said, "you'll know Paul is back."
HowardCohodas
08-17-2009, 08:18
Johnny Cash - Ragged Old Flag (http://oldbluewebdesigns.com/raggedoldflag.htm)
You're right Rich, nothing to it, it's just a code not a law.
It's not?
"U.S. Code
Laws made by the United States Congress, which is legislation that passes both the Senate and House of Representatives."
http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/
incarcerated
09-26-2009, 15:55
Great video here:
http://www.wten.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?ClipID1=4153731&h1=NEWS10%20EXCLUSIVE%3A%20VFW%20enacts%20its%20ow n%20judgement%20against%20flag%20burner%20%2809/23/09%29&vt1=v&at1=News&d1=143033&LaunchPageAdTag=Search Results&activePane=info&rnd=74546850
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=846181
Suspected flag burner pilloried
Alleged offender hunted down, ridiculed after incident at VFW post
By BOB GARDINIER AND HUMBERTO MARTÍNEZ, Staff writer
First published in print: Saturday, September 26, 2009
VALLEY FALLS -- The young man was given three choices: get turned over to the police, go one-on-one in a fight with a seasoned war veteran, or be duct-taped to a flagpole for six hours with a sign around his neck identifying his alleged crime: flag burning.
It was the third option that would still have the small town buzzing a week after a 21-year-old was hunted down and forced to endure a public humiliation with its roots dating to the Middle Ages. Members of the Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 1938 were incensed enough to tie up the man last Sunday after they accused him of setting the flag in front of their building on fire.
Post Commander Nick Normile, a Vietnam War veteran, said the man came into the post's bar Sept. 18 on Poplar Avenue and was eventually turned away for not having a proper ID.
Apparently angered, the young man, who Normile did not want to name, cut the rope of the American flag flying overhead and used a cigarette lighter to set it on fire, Normile and others said.
The man sat pilloried as the village had its fall youth soccer picnic with a long parade of children passing in front of him.
"He'll never disrespect the flag again, I can tell you that," Normile said.
Normile said the flag had at one point flown over U.S. troops in Iraq had special significance.
Veterans, both local and nationwide, responded to the event as accountings were posted online to the official VFW Facebook page and national Web site. Comments posted supported the act and added ideas for further punishment.
Other nearby business owners said they knew of the event but refused to give an accounting. Unconfirmed reports by citizens said the alleged flag-burner was a relative of a previous commander of the post.
Calls made to the alleged flag burner and a spokesman for the national VFW organization for comments were not returned. The Rensselaer County Sheriffs office confirmed knowledge of the event, but said they were not involved. State Police in Brunswick were contacted, but a trooper said no record of the event could be found.
The flag will be disposed of at a formal ceremony, Normile said.