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Richard
08-04-2009, 16:21
And so it goes... ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Russian Subs Patrolling Off East Coast of U.S.
Mark Mazzetti and Thom Shanker, NYT, 4 Aug 2009

A pair of nuclear-powered Russian attack submarines has been patrolling off the eastern seaboard of the United States over recent days, a rare mission that has raised concerns inside the Pentagon and intelligence agencies about a more assertive stance by the Russian military.

The episode has echoes of the cold war era, when the United States and the Soviet Union regularly parked submarines off each other’s coasts to steal military secrets, track the movements of their underwater fleets — and be poised for war.

But the collapse of the Soviet Union all but eliminated the ability of the Russian Navy to operate far from home ports, making the current submarine patrols thousands of miles from Russia even more surprising for military officials and defense policy experts.

“I don’t think they’ve put two first-line nuclear subs off the U.S. coast in about 15 years,” said Norman Polmar, a naval historian and expert on submarine warfare.

The submarines are of the Akula class, a counterpart to the Los Angeles class attack subs of the United States Navy, and not one of the larger submarines that can launch intercontinental nuclear missiles.

According to Defense Department officials, one of the Russian submarines remained in international waters on Tuesday about 200 miles off the coast of the United States. The second submarine traveled south in recent days to make a port call in Cuba, according to a senior Defense Department official.

The Pentagon and intelligence officials spoke anonymously to describe the effort to track the Russian submarines, which has not been publicly announced.

The submarine patrols come as Moscow tries to shake off the embarrassment of the latest failed test of the Bulava missile, a long-range weapon that was test fired from a submarine in the Arctic on July 15. The failed missile test was the sixth since 2005, and some experts see Russia’s assertiveness elsewhere as a gambit by the military to prove its continued relevance.

“It’s the military trying to demonstrate that they are still a player in Russian political and economic matters,” said Mr. Polmar.

One of the submarines is the newer Akula II, officials said, which is quieter than the older variant and the most advanced submarine in the Russian fleet. The Akula is capable of carrying torpedoes for attacking other submarines and surface vessels as well as missiles for striking targets on land and at sea.

Defense Department officials declined to speculate on what weapons might be aboard the two submarines.

While the submarines had not taken any provocative action beyond their presence outside territorial waters of the United States, officials expressed wariness over the Kremlin’s motivation for ordering such an unusual mission.

“Any time the Russian Navy does something so out of the ordinary it is cause for worry,” said a senior Defense Department official who has been monitoring reports on the submarines’ activities.

The official said the Navy was able to track the submarines as they made their way through international waters off the American coastline. This can be done from aircraft, ships, underwater sensors or other submarines.

“We’ve known where they were, and we’re not concerned about our ability to track the subs,” the official added. “We’re concerned just because they are there.”

Once among the world’s most powerful forces, the Russian Navy now has very few ships regularly deployed on the open seas. Moscow has contributed a battleship to an international armada searching for Somali pirates in the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean.

Another example of how Russia’s navy has sought to display global reach came last year when a flotilla of warships, including the nuclear battle cruiser Peter the Great, sailed for exercises with Venezuela.

The submarine patrols off the East Coast follow Russia’s resumption last year of bomber runs off the coast of Alaska. Russia began sending Tu-95 “Bear” bombers through international air space near Alaska in what was interpreted as a signal of the Kremlin’s unhappiness over decisions by the United States and Europe to recognize Kosovo’s independence, in defiance of Russia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/world/05patrol.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Pete
08-04-2009, 16:37
"......“We’ve known where they were, and we’re not concerned about our ability to track the subs,” the official added. “We’re concerned just because they are there.”........."

Tells me what I need to know.

Box
08-04-2009, 16:40
...and the VPOTUS said they would be easy to 'control'

greenberetTFS
08-05-2009, 01:45
Why doesn't the MSM report news like this? :mad:

Big Teddy :munchin

Kyobanim
08-05-2009, 04:39
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32295197/ns/world_news-europe/

incarcerated
08-06-2009, 00:43
Those two boats are just looking for Joe Biden. They have a message for him.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124848246032580581.html

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24273

Dozer523
08-06-2009, 05:58
"Mr. Biden may not like the comparison. But in his willingness to speak the truth about Russia, Mr. Biden reminds us of Dick Cheney.":eek:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203609204574314683638019234.html?m od=sphere_ts&mod=sphere_wd

incarcerated
08-06-2009, 10:16
"Mr. Biden may not like the comparison. But in his willingness to speak the truth about Russia, Mr. Biden reminds us of Dick Cheney.":eek:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203609204574314683638019234.html?m od=sphere_ts&mod=sphere_wd



The WSJ is wrong, unfair, and should apologize to Dick Cheney.





:rolleyes:

Richard
08-06-2009, 14:34
As a guy that grew up during the cold war, and went to basic and AIT learning to counter the soviet threat.... Big deal.

It is for them - just a way for them to say they're still in the game.

Also why is the white house letting the whole world know we are able to track the Russian subs ie our capability?

Olde newes* - they all read Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising and saw The Hunt For Red Oktober. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

* Reallye olde spelling intentional.

dac
08-06-2009, 19:28
Olde newes* - they all read Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising and saw The Hunt For Red Oktober.

I know that as soon as I read this article I imagined the two subs out doing Crazy Ivans and speaking with a Scottish accent.

I don't think it's any big secret to anybody that we track things. I didn't pay much attention to the cold war as an infant so I don't understand why this type of event is treated like a big deal. A) If they are ruffling their feathers to prove to the world that Mother Russia is still in the game why do we even acknowledge it publicly? It seems like giving attention to an unruly child. B) If they are actually doing something hostile wouldn't we keep that secret?

Richard
08-06-2009, 22:00
I didn't pay much attention to the cold war as an infant so I don't understand why this type of event is treated like a big deal. A) If they are ruffling their feathers to prove to the world that Mother Russia is still in the game why do we even acknowledge it publicly? It seems like giving attention to an unruly child.

It is in some ways - not always - but to not do so often leads to increasingly aggressive attention-seeking behavior which can 'unexpectedly' go off in directions none of us want to pursue. Maybe you should go back and learn a bit about the Cold War and how dangerous such 'brinkmanship' actually was on occasion.

As far as unruly 'children' - battles over behavior are chosen - situationally, some are worth fighting and some are worth ignoring - there is no set formula - experience helps...and some of us have quite a bit of experience with this 'child's' behavior.

B) If they are actually doing something hostile wouldn't we keep that secret?

Why would you assume we know all that is happening through such open sources? ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

dac
08-07-2009, 09:49
Maybe you should go back and learn a bit about the Cold War and how dangerous such 'brinkmanship' actually was on occasion.

That is actually a great idea. After I read your post I sat back and asked myself how I had missed studying the cold war when I had read so much on other wars. I didn't answer though.

Looks like a trip to Barnes & Chernoble is in order.

Pete
08-07-2009, 10:07
....Looks like a trip to Barnes & Chernoble is in order.

A good one to start with

http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/006103004X

incarcerated
08-07-2009, 11:41
....I didn't pay much attention to the cold war as an infant....

Don't worry, you'll get your chance: we are slowly entering Cold War II as Mother Russia brings her wayward children back into the fold. Keep your eye on Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Poland over the next decade, and Georgia in the short term. While two subs off North America and two Bears in Venezuela eleven months ago do not signal the return of a super-power (Russia is broke and badly damaged from the global economic downturn, and thus unable to project the level of power it once did, for the present), they indicate the trajectory that Putin has placed Russia on. Russia would like to return to its former strength, and is exerting a growing influence around the world.

LarryW
08-08-2009, 14:59
Maybe you should go back and learn a bit about the Cold War and how dangerous such 'brinkmanship' actually was on occasion.

Two naval officers, the skipper of a US destroyer and of a Soviet Foxtrot class sub, can be credited with preventing WW3 in October 1962. Each had permission from their respective COC's to destroy their targets, and one was prepared with nuclear torpedoes. Had one of those ships fired on the other we would be living in a much different world right now. Both chose to wait just a bit longer and that made all the difference. Yes sir, "brinkmanship" is very dangerous.

incarcerated
08-13-2009, 10:47
By way of contrast:
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-13-voa33.cfm

Russian Warships Join Atlantic Hunt for Missing Freighter

By VOA News
13 August 2009
Russian warships are scouring the Atlantic for a freighter with 15 Russian crew last spotted more than two weeks ago steaming through the English Channel.

A Russian Defense Ministry statement Thursday said authorities are using all means of detection, including satellites, to locate the Maltese-registered Arctic Sea, which was due in Algeria August 4.

Moscow ordered four ships from Russia's Black Sea fleet to the Atlantic earlier this week to hunt for the freighter.

Authorities say the Arctic Sea, which was carrying lumber from Finland to the Algerian port of Bejaia, failed to arrive at its destination and did not pass through the Strait of Gibraltar.

Reports early this week says the ship was tracked as far south as the coast of Portugal before contact was lost July 28.

Swedish and Russian authorities say people dressed as police boarded the ship in the Baltic Sea just days before its disappearance. The attackers are said to have tied up the crew for 12 hours while ransacking the ship. The reports say the attackers left without taking either money or cargo.

A spokesman for the commercial maritime intelligence service Dryad told Britain's International Television Network Thursday that several aspects of the disappearance continue to puzzle experts.

Graeme Gibbon-Brooks said hijackings in the Baltic Sea and the northern Atlantic are virtually unheard of. He said modern-day piracy is normally found in areas of the world with "weak defense structures and crushing poverty."


Some information for this report was provided by AFP, AP and Reuters.

LarryW
08-13-2009, 12:55
This is more of a threat than what it looks like. The "check in" as the ship supposedly passed thru the Straights of Gibralter coulld have been transmitted from a sailboat. My money is on the thing being repainted, new crew (one that's living), and a long ways from Tipperary right about now. The "boarding" vic of Sweeden could have been staging to move personnel also. On the high seas nothing is as it seems. Wonder if anyone has the various unique signatures of that freighter. Heads up oil rigs in the North Sea/North Atlantic!

incarcerated
08-16-2009, 06:41
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5igg1DzPsNqLdnrnnXWRzMcPifXRA


NATO, Russia join forces in hunt for missing ship
By Orlando Rodrigues (AFP) – 2 hours ago

PRAIA — As NATO and Russia joined forces in the search for the missing cargo ship Arctic Sea, commentators on Sunday said news the ship's owners had received a ransom demand augured well for the Russian crew.

Helsinki-based Solchart Management had received the demand, Finnish police confirmed on Saturday.

Finnish Detective Chief Superintendent Jan Nyholm told AFP the authorities there were keeping more than 20 countries informed of developments concerning the hunt for the ship....

The Maltese-flagged Arctic Sea left Finland for the Algerian port of Bejaia, carrying a cargo of about 6,700 cubic metres of sawn timber estimated to be worth 1.16 million euros (1.7 million dollars) on July 23.

A day later, eight to 10 masked men boarded the ship between the Swedish islands of Oland and Gotland in the Baltic Sea at about 0100 GMT, Swedish police later reported, several days after the incident.

Claiming to be anti-drugs police, they tied up the crew and conducted a thorough search of the vessel before reportedly leaving 10 to 12 hours later after freeing the crew....

incarcerated
08-16-2009, 15:48
It's Lumber, OK? That's L-U-M-B-E-R. Russia looses its ships all the time. There's no story here. :rolleyes:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5igg1DzPsNqLdnrnnXWRzMcPifXRA


Finland denies missing ship carries nuclear material

By Orlando Rodrigues (AFP) – 11 hours ago

PRAIA — Finnish authorities dismissed talk Sunday that the Arctic Sea was bearing a cargo of nuclear material, as Russia and NATO joined forces in an international hunt for the missing vessel.

Jukka Laaksonen, head of the Finnish Radiation and Nuclear Safety Authority, said firefighters conducted radiation tests on the ship -- last reported off Cape Verde -- at a port in Finland before it began a voyage full of intrigue.

But he dismissed as "stupid rumours" reports in British and Finnish newspapers that the ship could be carrying a "secret" nuclear cargo that could explain why it was attacked on the Baltic Sea before vanishing.

"Some fireman for some reason thought that there might be some radioactivity involved in this shipment and that was a very stupid idea. There was no basis for that," Laaksonen told AFP....

incarcerated
08-17-2009, 10:02
Does this mean that they need a few minutes to think up a good story?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gE17YYHbGwpvQYilaHecDtSI_W2QD9A4MK9G0

Russian minister: missing ship found, crew alive

By JIM HEINTZ (AP) – 1 hour ago
MOSCOW — The Russian-crewed freighter that sparked a high-seas mystery when it disappeared nearly three weeks ago has been found by a Russian naval frigate off the West African coast, the country's defense minister said Monday, according to Russian news agencies.

The Arctic Sea's 15 crew members, last heard from July 28, were alive and now aboard the navy ship, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said.

He did not give details about what happened to the ship, saying the full story could be made public later Monday, according to the agencies....

incarcerated
08-19-2009, 01:10
Two naval officers, the skipper of a US destroyer and of a Soviet Foxtrot class sub, can be credited with preventing WW3 in October 1962.

October, 1962....
Cuban Missile Crisis?
Or elsewhere on the globe?

LarryW
08-19-2009, 08:59
Cuban Missile Crisis. While the politicians ashore shot the breeze the warriors at sea (both sides; surface and submarine) kept their wits. IMHO, these skippers saved my old arse from being atomized.

LarryW
08-19-2009, 09:12
Would this have caused World War III though...? I mean would both sides have been ready to go to full-on war if the other side had destroyed one of their ships or subs?


IMHO, yes. The targets the Soviets were looking at weren't single ship contacts. They were carriers in Battle Groups. More than one ship would have gone down. Both military complexes were ready. Public opinion in both countries were primed. Had the bubble gone up at that time it would have at the very least been a theater-wide nuclear exchange, if not global. (i.e., Nuke DC from Cuba and see what the US does to Moscow.) The Soviets had the capability and were ready to launch from Cuba into the US (all except maybe Seattle). Had the Soviet C.O. launched a nuclear torpedo against one of the carrier groups (which his ROE would have allowed) the response to everything in the area would have been in a reaction mode. Had the U.S skipper fired on the sub (which his ROE allowed under the conditions) the Soviet would not have seen an option but to strike. President Reagan provided the same courage under pressure later on, but that was "later on". In October 1962 the Cold War wasn't very cold. IMHO, these guys did us an incredible service by not caving in to "brinkmanship". :munchin