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View Full Version : Coral Gables PD adopts Le Mas ammo


HowardCohodas
07-18-2009, 04:47
Coral Gables, FL PD adopts Le Mas ammo according to an article in the July/August issue of American Cop Magazine (http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanCop/ACJA09/) titled Le Mas Handgun Ammo Rifle-Like firepower by Bob Pilgrim that begins on page 46. According to DocGKR, Bob Pilgrim is the pseudonym of a respected ex-FBI agent that he knows personally.

I've asked DocGKR to get the back-story on the author's observations and how Coral Gables PD came to select this ammo. I know of DocGKR's opinion of this ammo but as an industry professional I am counting on him to report fairly if he does follow through.

Blitzzz (RIP)
07-18-2009, 06:33
Coral Gables, FL PD adopts Le Mas ammo according to an article in the July/August issue of American Cop Magazine (http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanCop/ACJA09/) titled Le Mas Handgun Ammo Rifle-Like firepower by Bob Pilgrim that begins on page 46. According to DocGKR, Bob Pilgrim is the pseudonym of a respected ex-FBI agent that he knows personally.

I've asked DocGKR to get the back-story on the author's observations and how Coral Gables PD came to select this ammo. I know of DocGKR's opinion of this ammo but as an industry professional I am counting on him to report fairly if he does follow through.
May want to read the Rules/instructions, as in waiting 72 hours to start posting. Much less starting your own thread.

Blitzzz (RIP)
07-18-2009, 08:05
I don't kmow much on this subject but thought this was interesting.

Using stereomicroscopy comparative analysis and SEM data, AFTE affiliated forensic scientists were able to prove that each of the LeMas rifle loads tested actually used commercially produced conventional rifle bullets: for example, the LeMas 5.56 mm Urban Warfare load is actually a Nosler 40 gr Ballistic Tip #39510, while the LeMas 5.56 mm Land Warfare appears to be a Sierra 45 gr JSP
Varminter #1310. Similarly the LeMas .308 Land Warfare turned out to be a Hornady 110 gr JSP #3010, while the LeMas .308 TFSP is really a Hornady 110 gr VMAX #23010, and the LeMas .308 Urban Warfare is a Nosler 125 gr Ballistic Tip #30125--oh, and the one lead-free LeMas rifle load we tested, the .308 SSSP/HARPPII, turned out to use Barnes Solid 125 gr all brass bullets #30812.
Link to the article.

I don't know what happens to these bullets by the La Mas people before loading. Anybody?

HowardCohodas
07-18-2009, 09:18
May want to read the Rules/instructions, as in waiting 72 hours to start posting. Much less starting your own thread.

I've obviously blotted my copy book. I'm just not sure how. I though I read and understood the rules. Perhaps you would be kind enough to be explicit about your concerns either in a PM or publicly, as you see fit. I aspire to be a good citizen in this community, so your help would be appreciated.

Blitzzz (RIP)
07-18-2009, 09:52
I apologize for my misunderstanding of the 72 hour rule, and my overzealous attack on your ststus. You don't need my help here, so welcome to PS.com. Again I apologize for my unnecessary correction. Apparently it's been added automatically in the soft ware, to eliminate the thinking process.

So sleeping in a Holiday Inn doesn't make me a Moderator..

HowardCohodas
07-18-2009, 09:52
I don't know what happens to these bullets by the La Mas people before loading. Anybody?

I believe the article is worth reading. It deals with neither the bullet construction, metallurgy, nor the bizarre marketing by Le Mas, the most frequent criticisms.

It does deal with the fact that a prominent police department has chosen this ammo. And it deals with the observations of a respected ex-FBI agent. This, in my opinion, is worth noting.

HowardCohodas
07-18-2009, 09:57
I apologize for my misunderstanding of the 72 hour rule

That is very kind. Thank you.

Ambush Master
07-18-2009, 10:02
ALL!!

LeMas Ammo has been discussed in here beyond belief!!

#1 Go to the bottom of the Web-Page and select "From the beginning" and you will see all posts in that thread.

#2 For this subject search for either LeMas or Posts by APLP. (He is the owner of the company and a personal friend to several of us!)

Take care.
Martin

rubberneck
07-18-2009, 10:06
I want to respect what Doc Roberts does but it is awfully hard to after watching him shill for dragon skin. On the one hand he blasts the guys at LeMas and anyone who speaks positively about them for being snake oil salesmen while getting into bed with a sleazebag like Murray Neal.

His followers heap praise on him for calling B.S. on LeMas's "marketing/hype" but they never want to acknowledge that his "testing" of Dragon Skin helped to slime the reputation of a respected member of this board. That's about all i'll say on the subject as his internet groupee's lose their mind whenever someone has the temerity to refuse to genuflect in his general direction.

Team Sergeant
07-18-2009, 10:09
Coral Gables, FL PD adopts Le Mas ammo according to an article in the July/August issue of American Cop Magazine (http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanCop/ACJA09/) titled Le Mas Handgun Ammo Rifle-Like firepower by Bob Pilgrim that begins on page 46. According to DocGKR, Bob Pilgrim is the pseudonym of a respected ex-FBI agent that he knows personally.

I've asked DocGKR to get the back-story on the author's observations and how Coral Gables PD came to select this ammo. I know of DocGKR's opinion of this ammo but as an industry professional I am counting on him to report fairly if he does follow through.

Welcome Howard,

Here on this forum of Professional Soldiers we don't drink the koolaid of the dentist known as Gary Roberts. Here we have MD.'s real Trauma Surgeons evaluate terminal ballistics, not dentists. We also don't read the National Enquirer for our news. Ever think about that? A dentist evaluating terminal ballistics.:rolleyes:

If you do a search on La Mas ammo you'll find enough to keep you reading for quite some time.

Team Sergeant


http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11179

Blitzzz (RIP)
07-18-2009, 10:11
I think... I'm out in the cold on this one. Hadn't taken a side on any of it, but sounds like I agree with you. Dave

swatsurgeon
07-18-2009, 17:30
I maintain that Le Mas has a role in L.E. and spoke to the officers that performed the T&E in Coral Gables...I have hard copy of all of their data. Head to head tests of several brands shooting things that make sense to L.E.......not gelatin. If you read the "lay press" you now see authors being critical of gel tests since they do not mimic the real world shooting of the human body. I was recently looking through Handguns magazine and on page 20 of the AUg/Sept. issue, Patrick Sweeney wrote: " The ballistic gel crowd points to the consistency of gel and how results can be demonstrated scientifically, but they gloss over the fact that gel only simulates tissue. It is not the real thing." A few years ago, you would not likely read comments such as this....I find it interesting that the article I wrote about 2 yrs ago for Roy Huntington to be published in American Cop on Le Mas, from a Trauma Surgeon's perspective was never seen in print but now something else is.

The crowd that followed (blindly IMHO) the inaccurate descriptions of Gary Roberts as to the wound ballistics of a round as demonstrated by firing into gel; it still only gives a limited 'dimensional' characterization of what different but similiar ammunition will do in gel...how far it travels, not what true wound ballistics was supposed to be: the potential injury to the body from a known bullet/ammunition type.

I applauded the Coral Gabled PD for being open minded enough to T&E and adopt an ammunition that will do more devastating injury to the human body from a handgun than any other avaialable handgun ammo. This was not and can not be duplicated in gel as demonstrated by Gary Roberts. His major flaw was stating that the claims of severe wounding can not be real since gel did not demonstrate anything remarkable (more than a round nose bullet would cause). Having performed autopsies on hogs shot by both conventional ammo and the Le Mas, there is a HUGE difference. I remain on call for the Miami Metro-Dade coroner and hope my invitation to attend an autopsy of someone shot with the Le Mas is still open .

Finland has gotten wound ballistics right, they use simulants, live tissue testing (animals) as well as informatin from Trauma surgeons and from autopsies...they put all of this info (and alot more) into a databank and are creating the world premier wound ballistics information resourse that far outclasses what our FBI lab has done or is doing presently...that you can verify as I have.

Unfortunately for police departments there are people that remain narrow minded in this field (Gary Roberts) and what that does is put LEOs at risk based on the mis-information they use to decide what ammunition to use.

I hope you will read everything this site has to offer on the subject.

I am and remain a professional when dealing with wound ballistics, I am not and have never been an expert. I have never met a true expert in this field: too much unknown for any one person to be deemed "the expert".

ss

Smokin Joe
07-19-2009, 00:37
I

Unfortunately for police departments there are people that remain narrow minded in this field (Gary Roberts) and what that does is put LEOs at risk based on the mis-information they use to decide what ammunition to use....

ss

It is truly unfortunate, because it not only affects the selection of ammunition but every tool, as well as every method of Law Enforcement. There is way to much narrow minded "inside the box" thinking in the current Law Enforcement field now days. The risk aversion, law suit crippled mentality that plaques each department is making Law Enforcement more dangerous today than ever before.

I applaud Coral Gables P.D. for there choice, my only concern is that they back up there decision with vests that stop Le Mas as well.

The Reaper
07-19-2009, 09:30
I applaud Coral Gables P.D. for there choice, my only concern is that they back up there decision with vests that stop Le Mas as well.

I do not think that will happen.

In my experience, LeMas .45 ACP from a 3.5" barrel will spank 3A all day long.

Very few officers, especially in Florida heat and humidity, are going to wear Level 4 or above.

Given the number of officers slain every year with their own weapons, that is a valid concern, but with a head shot all bets are off and the armor is irrelevant.

I suppose that it would be useful for a friendly fire incident to the front or back torso though.

The larger point here is that ballistic gelatin is inadequate to replicate the terminal effects of all ammunition, and that despite the difficulty in obtaining similar comparative shots in tissue (due to its lack of homogeneity), ultimately, there is no substitute for actual live tissue testing of ammunition.

When you have a "ballistic expert" who does not have a background in forensic pathology, but who does have his career wrapped around ballistic gel being the accepted medium for terminal ballistics testing, and the actual terminal performance of tested rounds deviate from his predictions from gelatin testing, he is going to attack the ammunition in order to defend his life's work. The requisite forensic pathology background allowed his predecessor to extrapolate performance and make conclusions with a high degree of confidence based on real world experience in live tissue. If the heir apparent has a bit of an ego, and a group of excitable fanboy followers, the results can be full of vitriol and emotion, rather than calm scientific consideration of the facts. In this case, the ammunition works, and I do not really care how, what it is or is not made from, or why it does not function the same in gelatin.

I know "Bob Pilgrim", as advertised, he is a former FBI agent, and a good man to boot. I would trust his testing and results.

TR

HowardCohodas
07-19-2009, 11:09
Whenever I get frustrated by the experts talking past each other on a subject I am trying to understand, I try to recall the following to bring back some perspective. It brings a smile to my face so that I can again tackle serious matters.



When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert.

swatsurgeon
07-19-2009, 13:10
Whenever I get frustrated by the experts talking past each other on a subject I am trying to understand, I try to recall the following to bring back some perspective. It brings a smile to my face so that I can again tackle serious matters.

thank you for sharing the 4 statements......practical and applicable.

ss

swatsurgeon
07-19-2009, 19:07
I wonder if on tactical forums Mr. McClung is publically denouncing the author of the article in American Cop...he's just an ex-FBI agent, therefore deserving of the same slander I received I'm sure. I wonder who's 'sock puppet' he is or if he deserves the label of 'quack' or that his skills as an agent were as poor as the information he wrote about.......
But that was all in the past...or was it? Anyone peeking?

ss

Snaquebite
07-20-2009, 11:37
In my experience, LeMas .45 ACP from a 3.5" barrel will spank 3A all day long.


I agree. They should at least be wearing a level III plate certified against LeMas.

swatsurgeon
07-20-2009, 22:24
Was punching holes in IIIA with no problem, also some steel plates. Would have to ask Stan (APLP) what type of plate is needed to stop the AP rounds.

Also, To use a quote from Lt. Col Dave Grossman on attacking "good" people like what occured to me (as TS, TR and others well know) on Tactical Forums
"A warrior is measured by his enemies. The more dispicable the attackers, the more noble the target. Your attackers are dirt bag pissant waste-of-sperm scum. Which places you pretty high on the 'noble' scale."

ss

Smokin Joe
07-20-2009, 22:59
Was punching holes in IIIA with no problem, also some steel plates. Would have to ask Stan (APLP) what type of plate is needed to stop the AP rounds.

Also, To use a quote from Lt. Col Dave Grossman on attacking "good" people like what occured to me (as TS, TR and others well know) on Tactical Forums
"A warrior is measured by his enemies. The more dispicable the attackers, the more noble the target. Your attackers are dirt bag pissant waste-of-sperm scum. Which places you pretty high on the 'noble' scale."

ss

SS,

I trust you, Doc T, and TS with my life (I actually used to have directions written on the exterior of my vest to fly me to Doc T's hospital should I go down on duty). Because of that trust no one will sway my opinion in matters in which you, Doc T, or TS have weighed in on. Frankly, I hardly even waist my time reading the dissenting opinions... I have better shit to do with my time than wasting it worrying about what a freaking dentist thinks about a bullet nor what his harem of bitches think or say. Especially in matters of character!

If you and TS say its the best shit out there, I will take it to the bank. Just please let know when something better comes out.

Thanks for all your hard work and professionalism!

Joe