View Full Version : SWAT TEAM HAS TWO ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGES
It says in the article that the "Firearms" accidently discharged?http://kdka.com/kdkainvestigators/Pine.Township.Standoff.2.1002241.html:munchin
them damn clumsy firearms...
...its a good thing one of them pesky guns didn't just hop right up and shoot someone.
Sorry: Ill try the link again.
http://kdka.com/kdkainvestigators/Pine.Township.Standoff.2.1002241.html
"The officers involved have not been pulled off the SWAT team. The superintendent will determine if any disciplinary action is necessary after a complete investigation is conducted."
Hopefully they're on some type of admin/ desk deal during the on going investigation? If I was on that SWAT team, I would be upset if they were still hanging out, with the team, while this was going on.
Round found in couch? WTF?
The Reaper
05-06-2009, 15:10
The weapons did not accidentally fire.
Two idiots negligently discharged their weapons in public during a call-out, and should be removed from the SWAT team and their carry privileges revoked till they have successfully completed remedial training, and demonstrated basic competency.
Why is it that articles like that never have the reporters' contact info attached?
TR
"We're going over the training issues with the SWAT team. We have training this month - that will be at the forefront of the training - the safety issues - how to handle a weapon when you have it in your hands mainly," Moffatt said.
Yeah, as opposed to "how to handle a weapon when you have your feet on it ..."
The superintendent says investigators will try to determine whether the two officers had their hand on the trigger with the safety off when they accidentally fired their weapons or whether there was some sort of mechanical error with the weapons.
" ... hand on the weapon with the safety off ..."
That would be my guess. In fact, I'll go even further:
" ... finger on the trigger with the safety off ... ".
Pennsylvania requires all novice hunters to attend their Basic Hunters Safety Course before being allowed to posess a hunting licensce.
The youngest member having completed the BHSC could tell these two officers EXACTLY what they did wrong.
repositioning the bolt on the rifle and the rifle discharged."
YUP, them damn bolts will cause a discharge every time.
them damn clumsy firearms...
...its a good thing one of them pesky guns didn't just hop right up and shoot someone.
Billy,
I agree. That really keeps me up at night. I like my guns, but you know when I turn off the lights and go upstairs to go to bed, I just don't know what they do. You know, it's really kinda scary.
What DO guns really do when you're not looking...the researchers at this site are trying to answer that very question.
http://www.assaultweaponwatch.com/
a team working from the old Ft Bragg stockade area.
While preparing for a room clearing exercise, walking-slow speed, 6 men lined up on a set of stairs, shooter #3, shot the guy infront of him in the calf, .45 ACP, 230gr., FMJ round, no more that 2 feet from barrel to target. Missed the leg bone, but took a nice chunck of flesh.
Shooter was reloading, let the slide ride forward, finger NOT on trigger, but there was trigger wiggle, Boom! His only error was not pointing the weapon in a safe direction. The shooter volunteered to leave the unit, took a transfer to 3/25th IF DIV, Hawaii - Platoon Sgt.
Victim, an SFC/E7 18E type was in my ANCOC class later the next year. Full recovery!
mojaveman
05-06-2009, 23:45
I think country boys that grew up with firearms are much less prone to having accidental discharges than people who have little or no experience with weapons.
I was a 95B Military Police for three years on my first enlistment and can remember witnessing no less than 6 accidental discharges. Four were with M1911A1s and two were with M1200s. One idiot shot himself through the calf but survived. All of the others were on Main Post where there were people around and luckily noboby was hit.
In the end it's operator headspace and some people just seem to have an aptitude for handling firearms while others don't.
This kid grew up in a rural area with plenty of things to shoot at.
greenberetTFS
05-07-2009, 06:53
Pennsylvania requires all novice hunters to attend their Basic Hunters Safety Course before being allowed to posess a hunting licensce.
The youngest member having completed the BHSC could tell these two officers EXACTLY what they did wrong.
YUP, them damn bolts will cause a discharge every time.
I agree with Pennsylvania, that requires every novice hunter attend the BHSC.... :D It would be great if every state did that...............;)
GB TFS :munchin
DbeforeD
05-07-2009, 07:03
I was at Hill AFB in Utah 5 – 6 years ago when the sergeant in charge of our element accidently shot himself with his privately owned AR-15. I think it was a Bushmaster, if I remember correctly. Anyway, the story we heard is that had set the chambered weapon on a pile of “stuff” sitting on his tailgate. The weapon fell off the pile and discharged when it hit the ground, blowing a sizable chunk off his calf.
I have never dropped my AR-15 (knock on wood), is this a common problem with AR-15s? Or is it just with that specific manufacturer’s weapon systems? Or is this just some freak occurrence or censored story to save face? Or like the previous posts, are these weapons starting a revolt against human control? You’re the experts in this field. :confused:
... I think it was a Bushmaster,....
I have one. I have to keep it securely locked in my gun safe. If I don't it will slither into my office and try to bit me on the leg. I tried to use the sling to keep it tied down but it would slip free and crawl off, usually under a bed. Have a heck of a time getting it out without being bitten.
The Reaper
05-07-2009, 08:01
I was at Hill AFB in Utah 5 – 6 years ago when the sergeant in charge of our element accidently shot himself with his privately owned AR-15. I think it was a Bushmaster, if I remember correctly. Anyway, the story we heard is that had set the chambered weapon on a pile of “stuff” sitting on his tailgate. The weapon fell off the pile and discharged when it hit the ground, blowing a sizable chunk off his calf.
I have never dropped my AR-15 (knock on wood), is this a common problem with AR-15s? Or is it just with that specific manufacturer’s weapon systems? Or is this just some freak occurrence or censored story to save face? Or like the previous posts, are these weapons starting a revolt against human control? You’re the experts in this field. :confused:
Sounds like a BS excuse to avoid admitting that he had a loaded weapon off safe pointed at himself and something, likely his finger, hit the trigger.
I have seen a lot of loaded weapons dropped, and other than an old Colt SAA, I have never seen one fire when dropped.
TR
DbeforeD
05-07-2009, 08:10
I have one. I have to keep it securely locked in my gun safe. If I don't it will slither into my office and try to bit me on the leg. I tried to use the sling to keep it tied down but it would slip free and crawl off, usually under a bed. Have a heck of a time getting it out without being bitten.
Well you dont have the shedding problem i have with my DPMS.
brianksain
05-07-2009, 10:19
Sigh.
Booger eaters do not need to play with guns ... I don't care if they do have pretty boy muscles and a SWAT pin.
But I digress ...
Utah Bob
05-07-2009, 11:54
Sounds like a BS excuse to avoid admitting that he had a loaded weapon off safe pointed at himself and something, likely his finger, hit the trigger.
I have seen a lot of loaded weapons dropped, and other than an old Colt SAA, I have never seen one fire when dropped.
TR
Ditto. (although I heard the new Ruger LCPs had a problem recently).
And that's why you only load 5 in a thumb buster.;)
monsterhunter
05-07-2009, 12:50
I know many smaller agencies do no have the ability to form a full time SWAT team. Some of these folks go through a very short school, and then train periodically with members of their team (most of which, are regular patrol officers when not responding as SWAT). They're at a big disadvantage to some of these other teams. On the other hand, some of these small teams train their asses off and do a very respectable job with what they have.
My $0.02 believes the guys who A.D.'d violated the most fundamental rule that most explorers understand the first time they hear it: Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to shoot. This doesn't take a whole lot of schooling. I can't believe two weapons on the same team are going to go off on their own.
Fiercely Loyal
05-07-2009, 19:39
A fella in my unit came home from OIF and shot himself in the left calf with is right hand. Weapon- browning Hi-Power. Ammo- Hornady Tap. Missed the bone and all major arteries. The story- Has changed numerous times. Recovery- 1 year to finally get to running stage. To sum it up, drinking and weapons do not mix.
Smokin Joe
05-08-2009, 10:26
I know many smaller agencies do no have the ability to form a full time SWAT team. Some of these folks go through a very short school, and then train periodically with members of their team (most of which, are regular patrol officers when not responding as SWAT). They're at a big disadvantage to some of these other teams. On the other hand, some of these small teams train their asses off and do a very respectable job with what they have.
That's no excuse. I don't care if your only SWAT training consisted of 3 days training in a classroom. You are a Police Officer 1st. It is your responsibility to know the tools of your trade and how to handle them appropriately and effectively in all situations. If your department doesn't train you, it is your responsibility to get trained. It is called initiative and professionalism, if you do not possess both you have no business being a Police Officer let alone a SWAT cop.
The issue here is there inability to safely handle a firearm NOT team tactics...;)
Just my .02 cents
(I'm not coming after you Monster hunter, I'm using "You" in the general sense)
brianksain
05-08-2009, 12:32
That's no excuse. I don't care if your only SWAT training consisted of 3 days training in a classroom. You are a Police Officer 1st. It is your responsibility to know the tools of your trade and how to handle them appropriately and effectively in all situations. If your department doesn't train you, it is your responsibility to get trained. It is called initiative and professionalism, if you do not possess both you have no business being a Police Officer let alone a SWAT cop.
The issue here is there inability to safely handle a firearm NOT team tactics...;)
Just my .02 cents
(I'm not coming after you Monster hunter, I'm using "You" in the general sense)
;) We'd probably get along fine.
monsterhunter
05-08-2009, 12:39
That's no excuse. I don't care if your only SWAT training consisted of 3 days training in a classroom. You are a Police Officer 1st. It is your responsibility to know the tools of your trade and how to handle them appropriately and effectively in all situations. If your department doesn't train you, it is your responsibility to get trained. It is called initiative and professionalism, if you do not possess both you have no business being a Police Officer let alone a SWAT cop.
The issue here is there inability to safely handle a firearm NOT team tactics...;)
Just my .02 cents
(I'm not coming after you Monster hunter, I'm using "You" in the general sense)
I think we're in agreement Smokin Joe. I believe the problem is two fold (at least in some cases): Poor training and oversight by the department coupled with head up a** on some of the officers involved. Some of the hiring practices these days leads to folks being in positions for which they would not otherwise be qualified.
longrange1947
05-08-2009, 12:45
And Brian, you can be so hard to get along with. :p
Smokin Joe, amen, I dislike immensely the excuse that "we are only part time and do not get the training time." As an officer, they should be making the training time, not waiting for it to show up. I rank that up there with the statement of our former Police Chief when he opposed the conceal to carry law. His statement was that then "His officers would have to approach every car as if someone was armed". :confused:
And I reiterate Smokin Joe's statement that I am not going after anyone only the statement of not "full time"
I realize it happens but at no time should an officer have an ND.
Longrange1947: Yesterday in that same general area, an officer was answering a domestic abuse call at a local housing project. It had the feeling of turning ugly so officer from police force (A) radioed for backup from police force (B) he got no reply. The situation was worsening, so he phoned his sergeant to tell him of the situation. PF (A) was a half hour away, whereas PF (B) was only 10 minutes away.
The shift sergeant sent another unit to PF (A) and the situation was defused. Meanwhile the shift Sgt. went to PF (B) headquarters where he found the dispatcher and two officers asleep.
Their reason for being asleep? You guessed it-"These are ONLY part time officers, and they have other jobs". WTF does this give them an excuse to use this job as their sleepy time. If theyre excepting the pay..........Do the job.
This just happened yesterday, and I havent heard of what actions were taken.
Keep in mind that all of this is in a 30 mile radius, and in less than a month. Three Pittsburgh Police Officers Killed (phoned in as a domestic dispute). Two swat members have accidental discharges. Dispatcher and Two Officers found asleep.
The whole story: http://kdka.com/kdkainvestigators/North.Braddock.Police.2.1004251.html
25Series
05-08-2009, 13:45
We had 2 NDs on the same day here at the JSS a couple weeks ago. The first, a Soldier cleans his weapon, puts it back together, goes to amber status, and then proceeds to do a function check on his M4. Do the steps in your mind, semi is no problem, as you haven't chambered a round yet, but by the time you get around to burst you are loaded chambered locked, well, so was he and he ND'd on Burst in his CHU.
Later that same night, another Joe (from the same Company no less) ND's a M9, while outside the wire, into his buddies shoulder, lucky for him it was a clean hit through and through and he was return to duty within days, talk about bad/good luck no go home no shiny medal. (but alive;))
Talk about a rough next morning for that 1SG...:boohoo
Well, at least the Spring Lake PD didn't shoot anybody.
http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=325875
If you can wade through it the links give the rest of the story.
For anybody who has spent time in the area - "Yeah, that's Spring Lake."
Smokin Joe
05-08-2009, 15:33
I think we're in agreement Smokin Joe. I believe the problem is two fold (at least in some cases): Poor training and oversight by the department coupled with head up a** on some of the officers involved. Some of the hiring practices these days leads to folks being in positions for which they would not otherwise be qualified.
Yup we are.