View Full Version : Golden Knights "Train" Special Forces
Team Sergeant
03-16-2009, 08:39
Wow, I sure never knew this, being MFF qualified and all I sure didn't know the Golden Knights "Train" Special Forces personnel.
Must be classified because in my 20 years I've never heard of this occuring on Ft Bragg. I always thought the Golden Knights was an Army Parachute "Club" full of Army females and skydivers with no "real" mission. Boy was I wrong.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Hey Special Forces guys is the Army Golf team also teaching you "real serious" stuff?
Team Sergeant
Thrilling Aerial Show Is Serious Business
CBS Evening News: Golden Knights Parachute Team Has Entertained For 50 Years - But Mission Is Deadly Serious
FORT BRAGG, N.C., March 15, 2009
(CBS) More than 8,500 air shows across 50 states - and some 50 countries.
The U.S. Army's Golden Knights parachute team has spent the last five decades making crowds look straight up, reports CBS News correspondent Kimberly Dozier.
The Golden Knight alums started it all.
"We started without a budget," said founding member Will "Squeak" Charette. "We begged for airplanes and we used our own parachutes."
Now the team field-tests the best gear the Army's got, and they've cleaned up on awards.
The tandem team has jumped with athletes, presidents and even a correspondent or two - including Dozier.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read Kimberly Dozier's reporter's notebook on the Golden Knights.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are in effect a U.S. Army advertising powerhouse, reaching an estimated audience of 800 million eyeballs a year - some of them a couple times over - through air shows, magazine and newspapers, and of course, television.
And when they're not jumping out of airplanes, they're training the U.S. military's special forces how to get to work in places like Afghanistan, so no one sees them coming.
The parachute team is currently led by Green Beret Colonel Tony Dill.
"Drop in from 35,000 feet and before you know it, you're touching down and knocking on their front door," Dill said. "It's safer to fly than drive."
But jumping with all that gear takes a lot of training.
"It's very difficult to jump combat equipment," Dill said. "Day one they were landing spread out the size of a football field. By the time they left, they all landed within about 30 yards of the dead center."
So it may look like a great show - but this is deadly serious business.
Golden Knight Ben Borger is perfecting the winged suit, which essentially turns him into a human glider. That could carry combat troops even farther behind enemy lines.
"We could put this on with a small amount of equipment and weapons and probably travel ten miles," Borger said.
But this time, they won't be letting anyone know they're coming.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/15/eveningnews/main4866916.shtml
And when they're not jumping out of airplanes, they're training the U.S. military's special forces how to get to work in places like Afghanistan, so no one sees them coming.
The parachute team is currently led by Green Beret Colonel Tony Dill.
I watched the piece on 60 Minutes and would wager that the hi-lighted line was an interpolation by the network when one of their writer's was creating the script for this segment based on (1) their Commander being an 18A, (2) the discussion of HAHO/HALO, and (3) that there are probably a couple of SF MFF Instructors currently on the team. And BTW...how do you train SF in MFF without jumping out of an airplane? It ain't all table drills and tower work. Such is the price one pays for dealing with the MSM. ;)
There have always been a few MFF Instructors who have gone over to the Golden Knights. I replaced a DET CDR in the 7th SFG who had been relieved and then went to be the Golden Knight's CO.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Ret10Echo
03-16-2009, 09:08
What a bunch of garbage....skydive club...not MFF. Wishful thinking.
Hey Special Forces guys is the Army Golf team also teaching you "real serious" stuff?
Range estimation and terrain-walks......:rolleyes:
Sinister
03-16-2009, 09:58
NOT a primary mission, but a customer support mission.
As the Boss I deployed AFF Instructors, Tandem Pilots, and free fall videographer/editors to support various, regularly-scheduled "Purple" courses. No need to identify the customers.
Two of four GK Commanders since July 2000 have had Army SMU assignments. All four were/are SF officers (though one was relieved).
Team Sergeant
03-16-2009, 10:08
I see the article as "another" attempt to justify their budget and their very existence. IMO they have no mission other than being an Army "skydiving country club".
Having spent 17 years on MFF status I have never witnessed the golden knights teaching anyone but themselves or offering any blade time. I do remember the golden knights taking up all sorts of hours on the wind tunnel and not allowing "combat" soldiers to train on the device.
If I were the CSM of the Army they would be stationed at Ft Polk, La. and not at Ft Bragg where all air assets are hard to come by.... (actually if I were the CSM of the Army the Golden Knights would not exist; they are nothing more than a waste of money and no mission.)
I see the article as "another" attempt to justify their budget and their very existence. IMO they have no mission other than being an Army "skydiving country club".
Having spent 17 years on MFF status I have never witnessed the golden knights teaching anyone but themselves or offering any blade time. I do remember the golden knights taking up all sorts of hours on the wind tunnel and not allowing "combat" soldiers to train on the device.
If I were the CSM of the Army they would be stationed at Ft Polk, La. and not at Ft Bragg where all air assets are hard to come by.... (actually if I were the CSM of the Army the Golden Knights would not exist; they are nothing more than a waste of money and no mission.)
THEIR air assets are not hard to come by as they have 3 DH6 Otters (they might have retired one but they've ordered 3 more), 2 F27 Folkers and they used to have a Pilatus Porter PC6. :mad:
What I truly don't get are the competition teams - No one really cares about skydiving competition other than skydivers. The demo team and tandem team at least give exposure to the Army.
Team Sergeant
03-16-2009, 11:45
A note to add: I seriously doubt the Golden Knights have EVER jumped from 35,000. Someone was blowing smoke up the reporters skirt......
This made me laugh out loud:
And when they're not jumping out of airplanes, they're training the U.S. military's special forces how to get to work in places like Afghanistan, so no one sees them coming.
The parachute team is currently led by Green Beret Colonel Tony Dill.
"Drop in from 35,000 feet and before you know it, you're touching down and knocking on their front door," Dill said. "It's safer to fly than drive."
But jumping with all that gear takes a lot of training.
"It's very difficult to jump combat equipment," Dill said. "Day one they were landing spread out the size of a football field. By the time they left, they all landed within about 30 yards of the dead center."
Again, the golden girls skydiving club don't jump combat equipment and they do not train US Army Special Forces.
I would sure like to ask Colonel Tony Dill a few questions concerning this "interview".:rolleyes:
Team Sergeant
Kimberly Dozier, the author of this article, was imbedded in my platoon in Iraq. Long story short, we got hit by a VBIED, lost our company commander and two of her sound crew. She officially died three times before making it to Germany.
Although I think she is great reporter and a huge supporter of the military, she is not knowledgable of SF, as most reporters aren't. As you all know, terms like 'Special Forces' get thrown around a lot in the MSM, and could really mean any type of Special Operations unit or personnel.
Sinister
03-16-2009, 12:45
The Knights use the SWC tunnel on an as-available basis (SWC owns and controls the time).
When I commanded we supported the HALO Committee and the Navy with all kinds of blade time. We also moved cargo for Mother Army and helped out pay hurts.
I agree on the competition teams. The public sees the demo teams every weekend from April through around the first week of November at airshows, then the Army-Navy game.
If you have a better Recruiting tool, please tell the Chief of Staff of the Army. Hard to get access to somebody like Tiger Woods or other TV personalities without something to offer.
Recruiting is a thankless mission. I'm glad someone else is doing it.
It's already tough trying to get kids to enlist, and tougher to compete against the Guard and Reserve with free college tuition (let alone the Air Force and Navy's offers for technical training without having to go muddy boots).
Ret10Echo
03-16-2009, 12:52
When I commanded we supported the HALO Committee and the Navy with all kinds of blade time. We also moved cargo for Mother Army and helped out pay hurts.
We were on the receiving end of the blade time while I was out in Yuma....the cheetos didn't care much to have to do their first ruck jump out of a Fokker....but they did help us out when we were hurting during some classes......
The Reaper
03-16-2009, 13:25
I had a couple of GKs for neighbors, and they helped us out a couple of times when we could not get air assets to support MFF training.
When I was at SWCS, the GKs were pretty far down the priority list for the VWT, well after MFF students and teams.
The Knights I worked with were good soldiers, I have no complaints.
Looks to me like the media did not know the topic, or someone was blowing smoke to them.
TR
Team Sergeant
03-16-2009, 13:57
I’m not going to debate the merits of the golden knights as a "recruiting tool" I've no idea how effective tool they are, I can tell you I never heard of them until I was already in Special Forces. (Then again I didn’t know the US Army had a golf team, basketball team, volleyball team, sailing team, soccer team, cycling team, wrestling team, rugby team, etc etc etc etc along with a parachute team. I’m sure they are all great recruiting tools, even though I've never heard of them or knew they existed until I was already in the Army.)
I am sure there have been favors done over the years between SF and the GK’s and I’ll leave it at that.
I take offense when they are connected to US Army Special Forces as "trainers". They do not train Special Forces soldiers, they don’t jump from 35,000 and they don’t make combat equipment jumps.
The Golden Knights work for US Army Recruiting Command, period.
Here is the story of the Golden Knights and their 50 years.
A little different slant, more like the right one, in the local Fayetteville Observer.
http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=321317
Ret10Echo
03-17-2009, 05:24
I’m not going to debate the merits of the golden knights as a "recruiting tool" I've no idea how effective tool they are,
I take offense when they are connected to US Army Special Forces as "trainers". They do not train Special Forces soldiers, they don’t jump from 35,000 and they don’t make combat equipment jumps.
The Golden Knights work for US Army Recruiting Command, period.
The connection between the GK and Army Recruiting is about as tight as the Army being a sponsor of NASCAR and NHRA cars. The average person would not assume that the person in the suit is any more than a sandwich-board wearer.....(Just my opinion).
Team guys go there cause they want to skydive....skydivers go there because it is a steady paycheck....is it worth the cost of a fleet of aircraft and all the other assorted facilities and equipment??....I suppose Recruiting Command has to make that call. Any relation to Special Forces is incidental and case-by-case.....and should remain as such. There are some good men who are there and have been there, but it isn't Special Forces/Special Operations. Sometimes people start believing their own hype.
Recruiters are the poor slob stuck in a small office in Chicago trying to move bodies, appease parents and keep the station commander happy. THAT guy 'aint no Rock Star...he's putting boots on the ground.
I remember 3 different Golden Nights that went to MFF school and the ruck kicked their ass and they did not pass. Big difference skydiving and MFF.
As a (old) MFFI, a 3+ decade friend of many former members of the APT, and a friend of the current GK commander, I'll just say that the verbiage in Team Sergeant's post above was not written by anyone at the APT, it was written, edited and (extensively) modified by the author based on her personal observations, interviews and opinions of what she saw during her visit to the APT.
I'll also say that the Cdr has ensured me that at no time during his interview did he insinuate that the GKs are responsible for training SFODAs in MFF techniques. In his previous assignment he was personally responsible for MFF course slot allocations for all SFG(A)s, so he knows and understands the difference. It was the article's author who (most likely innocently) mis-stated the words in print.
All of us who've hauled our asses out the back of C141 (RIP) at 25K AGL at night w/ O2 and a 100lb ruck understand the difference between doing that and stepping out over 500,000 wide-eyed citizens enjoying an air show on the ground below. It appears to me that the author is the one who didn't...
________________
Edit / Follow-up. Received the following from the Cdr, Army Parachute Team asking me to post it here.
FROM THE GK COMMANDER:
Gentlemen,
I was notified of the blogs on the Quite Professional link and wanted to try and answer your questions. I asked that a mutual friend post my response, as I do not have an account and did not want to wait the customary three days.
My apologies, the five hours of interviews my Soldiers did about the history of the Army Parachute Team and ten minutes about how we can assist the MFF Teams, turned into the appearance that we run the MFF Course. That was not our intent.
Ms Dozier did a fantastic job conducting the interviews. When all the footage was sent to the producer, those additional minutes and hours were left on the cutting room floor. The angle they chose was our support to the military teams.
I’m sure some of you know me, I was honored to command MFF ODA 064 and have been on MFF Status since I graduated the Bragg course in 1994 with Jay Stokes and Alcee Richardson as my instructors.
As for the interview, we described the three missions assigned to the Parachute Team. Demonstration of Army Capability through precision freefall. Demonstration of Warrior spirit and team work through National and international competition, and specialized support, coaching and R&D for the MFF Teams.
There are less than 100 personnel here, including pilots, crew chiefs and staff. 54 of the NCOs do all the jumping, of which 14 are on the three competition teams. Of those 14, four are the Women’s Team. In the entire history of the Knights about 826 Soldiers have served here. We also don’t get money from the Army for the demos we do, the show sponsor pays the Army for fuel, rentals, rooms etc and then we can go do the show. My entire budget is less than a quarter of what is spent on NASCAR.
Last year we worked with three ODAs from 3rd SFG providing jump platforms to augment their Level 1 requals, freefall video so their team SGTs could better evaluate younger jumpers on their ODAs, and canopy coaching by my MFF qualified Soldiers who are also World Champion accuracy jumpers. The day footage in the interview is our Twin Otter. The night footage was one of my Soldiers providing night video support in a CASA. Several Soldiers were sent to us by their Team SGTs last year for one on one coaching and to build their jump numbers. We also ran one SWC instructor through Tandem certification and the MFF Instructors jump from my aircraft in Yuma any time they like. We provided specialized Rigger support and built several air items including Monkey Harnesses for 7th SFG. We also spent a week training with the Navy Leapfrogs and two months with the 82nd Team.
We are working with NATICK to evaluate new O2 systems for the MFF teams to take the burden off of USASFC and to provide very trained parachutist to evaluate the system before it goes to an MFF ODA for operational and field testing. As former Chief of Training at USASFC I was also asked to look the potential of the Wing Suit to enhance the capability of the MFF ODAs. We have been working with the manufacturer for better capability of those suits and just set a new US Record, flying 10 miles from 25,000 feet. The 32,000 foot attempt was cancelled when a C17 Crew member became ill. We will try that again in a few months and believe SSG Borger can exceed 15 miles, setting a new world record in the process. The video showed Borger with Gentex and O2 system over Yuma. Our goal is to develop a suit that can be used by a more novice jumper with small amounts of equipment. The equipment rigging is the next phase of testing.
During the interview I was asked why SF Teams conduct MFF and what their capability was. That was my description of the 35,000 foot exit and undetected landing next to an enemy’s door, used in the show. We always explain to civilian audience that the parachute demonstrations they see are similar to a SOF capability that they can join the Army to do. This is also a great way for us to tell America what USASFC is doing for them in training and in GWOT.
I see a few Soldiers here have had a bad experience in the past with a Golden Knight. For that I am sorry. SGM Ike has done a tremendous job over the last few years removing Soldiers who didn’t understand that this is the Army Parachute Team and not the GK Skyding club. If any of you ever have a problem with one of my Soldiers, my door is always open. It’s a great honor to represent the US Army and only the best will be allowed to do so. We have also just gotten permission to rotate my Soldiers in support of the CJSOTFs after the competition season ends and will work to see if that may allow a few USASFC Soldiers to come home for Thanksgiving and Christmas for a well deserved break.
I have made the following offer to CG USASOC and CG USASFC. Coaching and video for your MFF Teams and individuals, Tandem jumps for Soldiers preparing to go to the MFF Course, and Tandem jumps for VIPs who are influential to the success of the Regiment. Just realize this is a small unit and can’t coach everyone at the same time. I can also send one or two coaches/video to your location if you are not on Bragg.
If you are a Team SGT, please contact me at the HQ and let me know how we can help. About a third of my Soldiers are MFF qualified and I have several former MFF instructors. My Soldiers don’t jump combat equipment, but my ruck never tried to grab the plane on exit. These Soldiers also jump 45 pound smoke chains, and all manner of bags, cameras and equipment for their mission. They also land at night in the largest cities in the US, or the back of a bass boat (look at ‘Warriors on the Water’ on Utube). All things my MFF Team would never have attempted.
The Golden Knights were established almost entirely with SF Soldiers, and those same Golden Knights were pulled to create the first MFF course at Fort Bragg (there was also one in panama at the same time that did not involve the Knights). Last year my last SF Soldier retired after returning from OEF with 3rd SFG. We have a historical link with the Regiment and would like to re-establish it. A young 18X who has deployed several times could spend a few years here telling the SF story to the public and American Leadership, and then go to his MFF ODA with thousands of jumps under his belt. Just a proposal.
Thank you for all you do, and again, please let me know how I can assist?
V/R
Tony Dill
LTC, SF
Commander US Army Parachute Team
910-396-4800 (switchboard)
gksweeney22
04-13-2009, 20:28
I remember 3 different Golden Nights that went to MFF school and the ruck kicked their ass and they did not pass. Big difference skydiving and MFF..
.
Nice Photo.. Ruck's look a little small....:D
Glad some of the boys had ruck's but it does not change the fact a few did have problems with ruck's in my day.
Had a former GK on my team in 3/5th SFG and he could fly circles around all of us with or without a ruck and he taught us all a lot. It all depends on the person. He did make excuses to jump without them "To Teach US" but he would put it all on and do the deed when it was needed.......
Also Knew a lot of people that wanted to Skydive on Halo Teams and you would have to hold a gun to their heads to do a ruck/O2 jump but they always were there for Hollywood jumps.
I never lump all people into a group just make observations.
PS: I have benefited from GK lift's and appreciated them when we needed help.
Thanks for the photo always like good shots.:cool:
Let's look back:
No canopy release assembly -> 2 shot canopy release assembly.
2 shot canopy release assembly -> 1 1/2 ("shot and a half" / cable) canopy release assembly.
1 1/2 shot canopy release assembly -> 3 ring circus.
===
Single point quick release box -> three point harness.
===
Pure deceleration (T-7, T-10) -> Blank gore with Derry slots, double-T, eliptical TU.
Blank gore with Derry slots, double-T, eliptical TU -> Inverted apex lifting body (MC-3, Para-Commander).
Inverted apex lifting body (MC-3, Para-Commander) -> Ram air inflated wing.
===
The common element?
Not one of them were invented by the U.S. Army/ U.S. Air Force, Natick Labs, or Yuma.
They all began with skydivers / sport parachutists, who were saving lives and jumping them years before they became type classified and entered the military inventory.
There is a lot of cross fertilization between the military parachute teams and military parachuting, both S/L and MFF.
The problem is getting the military to listen. We (101st Airborne Division Command Parachute Team "Screaming Eagles") were jumping three point harnesses, shot and a half canopy release assemblies, and Paracommanders (and later the Delta II, the Sled, the Volplane, Stratocloud, etc.) and kept up a steady drumbeat for the military to adopt at least some of the life-saving features. That was in the 1970's. It took the green machine years to do so. I think the Knights had something to do with it.
And yes, we jumped day / night / water / rucksacks* / freefall formations / canopy formations / HAHO (we called it "cross country").
None of the members of our team had any problem at all with what they were to carry/fly in free fall or landing.
DISCLAIMER: Not a Knight, I am former member of the 101st Airborne Division Parachute Team "Screaming Eagles" and the Indianhead Parachute Team (2nd ID, ROK). USPA D-3794.
*No brag, just fact: Like most "old time" demonstration jumpers, I've jumped with rucksacks, fire extinguishers ("October is Fire Prevention Month"), batons, banners, teddy bears, books, soccer balls, the crown for a boat race queen with a water landing, flags, smoke, video and still cameras, cutaways, etc. And, with the exception of the T-7, jumped all of the canopies named above.