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Paslode
02-07-2009, 22:32
I did a search and found nothing so I am going to ask.

Might anyone have any experience with or opinions on American Ballistics M118LR ammo?

Gene Econ
02-08-2009, 20:44
I did a search and found nothing so I am going to ask. Might anyone have any experience with or opinions on American Ballistics M118LR ammo?

Paslode:

Link us to what ever American Ballistics M-118 ammo is.

I doubt it will be anything different than M-118 Special Ball ammo except perhaps mean radius if the wannabees there knows what that means.

Take a 175 grain Sierra Match King and load it with what ever powder, primer, and case you find that comes close to giving you about 2610 FPS plus or minus maybe 10 fps from your particular rifle and you have the equivalent of M-118 LR and SB from an M-24 rifle in terms of elevation.

So what was your question 'zakly'?

'LR1947 (+ 8)'

LR27
02-08-2009, 21:38
I did a search and found nothing so I am going to ask.

Might anyone have any experience with or opinions on American Ballistics M118LR ammo?
If you Google 'American Ballistics M118LR,' there are several results that lead to Sniper's Hide forums, where the ammo is discussed there.

Paslode
02-08-2009, 21:49
Here is the links Sir,


http://www.amballistics.com/id20.htm

http://usarmorment.com/m118lr-762-175-gr-long-range-sniper-ammunition-20-rnd-box-p-1.html

I did read the Sniperhide forum LongRange and several other forums as well. Some said it was a-okay, others said it was crap and many said hand load your own with Varget and SMK's.....I always get better answers here.


The price isn't much more than Wolf/PPU Gold ($15.99 vs. $19.99 per 20) and I was interested in finding out if anyone here has used it and what their thought on it might be. At present SMK's, Primers and Powder are no problem to find around here, but .308 cases are non-existant. Ammo is slim pickings as well., Cabelas had 'one' box of 308 on the shelf.

What am I using it for? Non-competitive paper.

Thanks,

Paslode

Peregrino
02-08-2009, 22:39
Personal opinion - roll your own. Check out http://www.gibrass.com, he's usually got some decent brass. The only thing you really need to know is the bullet, its Ballistic Coefficient, and the velocity out of your rifle. Gene Econ gave you the starting point. FWIW (insert appropriate disclaimers here) I use 41.6 gr of IMR 4895 in a LC90 case with a F210M primer to push a 175 SMK at 2600 +/- 15. It does everything I need and the consistency means my ballistics program actually produces useable results. If you are not an experienced reloader you need to work with someone who is. DO NOT start your journey reloading for a gas gun! (Warning - GI brass generally has a smaller case capacity and requires reducing starting loads developed for commercial brass. Always observe for signs of excess pressure and use a chronograph when working up loads.) JFTFOI - Here's a link to a BASIC ballistics calculator: http://www.perfectunion.com/images/Ballistics_Calculator.xls HTH

Gene Econ
02-09-2009, 20:26
Personal opinion - roll your own. Check out http://www.gibrass.com, he's usually got some decent brass. The only thing you really need to know is the bullet, its Ballistic Coefficient, and the velocity out of your rifle. Gene Econ gave you the starting point. FWIW (insert appropriate disclaimers here) I use 41.6 gr of IMR 4895 in a LC90 case with a F210M primer to push a 175 SMK at 2600 +/- 15. It does everything I need and the consistency means my ballistics program actually produces useable results. If you are not an experienced reloader you need to work with someone who is. DO NOT start your journey reloading for a gas gun! (Warning - GI brass generally has a smaller case capacity and requires reducing starting loads developed for commercial brass. Always observe for signs of excess pressure and use a chronograph when working up loads.) JFTFOI - Here's a link to a BASIC ballistics calculator: http://www.perfectunion.com/images/Ballistics_Calculator.xls HTH

PG:

Damn man -- why not just give them a hold harmless agreement to sign? He, he, he.

Cognitive Dissonance theory has been considered obsolete for years. I see evidence of its honesty and validity daily.

See you all in about four weeks!

Gene

Peregrino
02-09-2009, 21:09
Gene - Looking forward to it!.

Paslode
02-09-2009, 21:39
Not too worry, I offically take full responsibility of what I do or don't do with the information I obtain on this website and hold you harmless of any mishaps and any damages resulting from said mishaps.;)

I have a Rockchucker and have been reloading 5.56 for about 4 months and have always stayed below the recommended maximums because I have much to learn....and it sounds like I need to invest in a chrono.

Gene Econ
02-09-2009, 22:03
Not too worry, I offically take full responsibility of what I do or don't do with the information I obtain on this website and hold you harmless of any mishaps and any damages resulting from said mishaps.;)

I have a Rockchucker and have been reloading 5.56 for about 4 months and have always stayed below the recommended maximums because I have much to learn....and it sounds like I need to invest in a chrono.

Paslode:

So, tell us the main effect of using a Rock Chucker press for your reloads?

Does your reloaded ammunition know it was loaded using a Rochchucker press and if so, can you prove that the ammunition is different than when loaded using other presses?

He, he, he. All in fun.

You won't go wrong with a load of 41 grains of IMR or Hodgdon 4895 with any .308 bullet to about 185 grains using any prmer and any brass. The Army used 42 grains of the stuff with its M-852 match and I have found up to 43 grains with a extruded powder of which I have no clue and the issued M-118 Long Range.

42 grains of Reloader 15 or Varget ought to do the trick too.

What ever you use, get a decent Chrono (I use a CED Millineum with IR Sky Screens and a four foot distance between sensors). A chorono will give you an idea of the velocity and consitency but not pressures.

You can check pressures by comparing sized brass to expanded brass if you have a decent micrometer but better yet is by visual inspection of your brass on firing.

Here I will let PG / Hollis give you the poop as I am fatigued.

Gene

Peregrino
02-09-2009, 22:11
Nope - It's Hollis' turn. I'm headed for bed. :p

Paslode
02-09-2009, 22:33
The main effect of the Rockchucker or any press is cost saving for me (unless you add a labor rate into calculation), but tighter groups and fewer flyers are added benefits.:D Hand loading is a challenge as well, nice to see something work and find ways to do it better.

longrange1947
02-10-2009, 08:10
HIJACK!!!! Gene, when are you coming by? End of HIJACK!!

Gene Econ
02-10-2009, 20:06
HIJACK!!!! Gene, when are you coming by? End of HIJACK!!

Rick / Peregrino / T.R. / M.C. et. al.

Looking on flying there on the 15th (Sunday) and linking up either Mon, Tues, or Wed at McCellars for some BBQ and conversation per SOP. You tell us what day is best for you.

This is an open invitation to folks here that we link up once a year or so for lunch and fascinating conversation at McCellars and then go our ways. Such conversations reinforce in my mind exactly what 'professional' looks and sounds like. Anyone is welcome. Just take part.

"Training is everything and everything is training." (K. C. Lewer, 1978) He, he, he. That ought to get things rocking.

Gene

Gene Econ
02-10-2009, 20:12
The main effect of the Rockchucker or any press is cost saving for me (unless you add a labor rate into calculation), but tighter groups and fewer flyers are added benefits.:D Hand loading is a challenge as well, nice to see something work and find ways to do it better.

Paslode:

Well then, you just 'cost save' your ass a BC message to me detailing your requirements in terms of gear.

Oh yes, if you do, state your Christian name up front please. I hate talking to a fake name.

Gene

Paslode
02-12-2009, 20:22
Peregrino,


Last week I zeroed my Rem 700 @100 yds with some factory Hornaday. Then earlier this week I when I got home loaded up some 150 GR SMK's with 41gr of Benchmark.

Today I took it out to the lake set up the target on the far side which is 230 to 250 yds. Then came home and checked my corrections with the chart and I was 1 windage click off from what was stated on the chart and right on the money with elevation.

That chart is a slick gizmo!

Peregrino
02-12-2009, 20:34
OK - Stop patting yourself on the back and start learning to read wind. :p

Paslode
02-12-2009, 21:32
OK - Stop patting yourself on the back and start learning to read wind. :p

Actually I was patting you the back for the info;) Today was deserving of a smirk knowing I am on the right track, but I have a wee bit more work to do before it's worthy of a half smile.

Now what I didn't tell you was at first I rotated the elevation in the wrong direction and I was shooting 8" low :D

Peregrino
02-12-2009, 21:49
Actually I was patting you the back for the info;) Today was deserving of a smirk knowing I am on the right track, but I have a wee bit more work to do before it's worthy of a half smile.

Now what I didn't tell you was at first I rotated the elevation in the wrong direction and I was shooting 8" low :D

Somebody shared it with me, I'm just "paying it forward". There are better calculators out there, this one is adequate and just happens to be free. Get a chrony and a range finder, then keep meticulous notes. A good data book is invaluable. Happy shooting!

Paslode
02-13-2009, 18:59
Out of curiosity I ordered a few boxes of the American Ballistics M118LR, I figured I could reload them.

What I got has Silver State Amoury cases. The Bullet weights in at 175gr, OAL of 1.215 and isn't a SMK. The casing contained about 36 gr of powder. The powder isn't cylinder shaped, it is more like round flakes and looks similar to the powder in the BH MK262 seconds I have pulled.

COAL ranged from 2.736 to 2.748

The boxes are flimsy, of the four I orderd 3 were broken.

It is in the price realm of SSA M118LR seconds, it makes me wonder if it is as advertized....This is brand new, US made, first run, current government issue ammunition. It is not 10 year old surplus or reject ammo.

Either way, it is 3 bucks more than Wolf Gold, 10 bucks cheaper XM118LR, if it goes bang it ain't a bad deal.....unless you reload;)

Gene Econ
02-13-2009, 20:04
Peregrino,


Last week I zeroed my Rem 700 @100 yds with some factory Hornaday. Then earlier this week I when I got home loaded up some 150 GR SMK's with 41gr of Benchmark. Today I took it out to the lake set up the target on the far side which is 230 to 250 yds. Then came home and checked my corrections with the chart and I was 1 windage click off from what was stated on the chart and right on the money with elevation. That chart is a slick gizmo!

PL:

Impossible to determine how accurate a gizmo is at ranges under 300 yards minimum. Better bet is to put paper out at 600 yards and use the chart or what ever and see how accurate it is then. I mean trusting the gizmo blindly.

All small arms ammo does about the same to 300. One notices a difference at 500 and can quantify that difference at 600 and beyond.

Just my opinion.

Gene

Gene Econ
02-13-2009, 20:33
Out of curiosity I ordered a few boxes of the American Ballistics M118LR, I figured I could reload them. What I got has Silver State Amoury cases. The Bullet weights in at 175gr, OAL of 1.215 and isn't a SMK. The casing contained about 36 gr of powder. The powder isn't cylinder shaped, it is more like round flakes and looks similar to the powder in the BH MK262 seconds I have pulled. COAL ranged from 2.736 to 2.748 The boxes are flimsy, of the four I orderd 3 were broken. It is in the price realm of SSA M118LR seconds, it makes me wonder if it is as advertized....This is brand new, US made, first run, current government issue ammunition. It is not 10 year old surplus or reject ammo. Either way, it is 3 bucks more than Wolf Gold, 10 bucks cheaper XM118LR, if it goes bang it ain't a bad deal.....unless you reload;)

PL:

Get some Winchester cases, some CCI BR-2 (?) Bench Rest primers (Large Rifle), some 175 grain Sierra's, and some Varget, Reloader 15, or H-4895 in that order of priority. Work between 41 and 4...... grains. He, he, he. Winchester brass is thinner than LC or Lapua so holds more powder and more powder is better powder -- unless the powder is way too fast for the cartridge. Like Soviet flake powders for rifle.

I have shot loads of 39 grains of Varget, 4895, and Reloader 15 powder in the .308 -- using 155 grain Match Kings at 200 yards only. That is a mighty light load for a full house charge behind anything bigger than about 130 grains in 30 caliber -- given all the warnings from the various commercial bullet makers.

The only current flake powders for rifle I have ever seen have been Soviet. American manufactureres use ball or extruded powders 'Hecho De Mano En USA' (pronounced 'ooo-sss-ahhhh') by the illegals they hire. I believe Silver State is located in Nevada but I bet aside from drawing some brass, they import the bullets, primers, and particularly powder from the (former) Soviet Union.

In other words -- I would hand load using American components if I were you.

LR1947+8

Paslode
02-13-2009, 22:09
PL:

Get some Winchester cases, some CCI BR-2 (?) Bench Rest primers (Large Rifle), some 175 grain Sierra's, and some Varget, Reloader 15, or H-4895 in that order of priority. Work between 41 and 4...... grains. He, he, he. Winchester brass is thinner than LC or Lapua so holds more powder and more powder is better powder -- unless the powder is way too fast for the cartridge. Like Soviet flake powders for rifle.

I have shot loads of 39 grains of Varget, 4895, and Reloader 15 powder in the .308 -- using 155 grain Match Kings at 200 yards only. That is a mighty light load for a full house charge behind anything bigger than about 130 grains in 30 caliber -- given all the warnings from the various commercial bullet makers.

The only current flake powders for rifle I have ever seen have been Soviet. American manufactureres use ball or extruded powders 'Hecho De Mano En USA' (pronounced 'ooo-sss-ahhhh') by the illegals they hire. I believe Silver State is located in Nevada but I bet aside from drawing some brass, they import the bullets, primers, and particularly powder from the (former) Soviet Union.

In other words -- I would hand load using American components if I were you.

LR1947+8


I here ya, but curiosity got me.;) It will be good for can plinking.

I have the primers, Win cases and all I need to run up the street this weekend for the Varget.

Gene Econ
02-15-2009, 21:06
I here ya, but curiosity got me.;) It will be good for can plinking. I have the primers, Win cases and all I need to run up the street this weekend for the Varget.

PL:

I trust you pretty well so please do shoot some of the factory loads at 300 yards for group and inform us of the results.

Five strings of five ought to do.

Gene

Paslode
02-15-2009, 21:20
PL:

I trust you pretty well so please do shoot some of the factory loads at 300 yards for group and inform us of the results.

Five strings of five ought to do.

Gene

Roger that Sir. But I am warning you my groups might not be as tight as what you are accustomed too:D I might be able to sneek it in this week, I'll try and remember to take the camera.

Paslode
02-16-2009, 19:18
It was too windy today to get a good group, but I did get some velocities.

American Ballistics:

First round out(I think you call that cold barrel) - 2609 fps
And the rest in sequence
2546
2482
2525
2529
2517
2549
and there were couple below 2400 fps.

Gene Econ
02-16-2009, 20:11
It was too windy today to get a good group, but I did get some velocities.

American Ballistics: First round out(I think you call that cold barrel) - 2609 fps
And the rest in sequence
2546
2482
2525
2529
2517
2549
and there were couple below 2400 fps.

PL:

I think your 700 uses a 24" barrel so the velocity reductions are expected. Two inches would equal about 50 fps. M = 2524 and a SD of about 22. The load is still about 25 fps slow but believe it or not -- the SD isn't terrible by military standards. I think the various lots of 118 and 118 LR I have chronographed had SD's of around 15 fps. BTW -- most of us prefer an SD of under 10 fps but go with accuracy over deviations in velocities. You won't find too many super accurate loads with high SD's, but if you get a .308 load to be right around 10 fps and it shoots to your satisfaction then use your ammo to be a better shooter and avoid more load development -- IMHO with the .308 only.

If there are winds, don't sweat it. Shoot the shots without trying to dope winds and assess the accuracy based on vertical stringing. If I test loads in winds, I use a no wind zero and hold center. If the shots string horizonatlly about what they should have given the wind conditions, I accept the horizontal spread as OK. I focus on the vertical spread but I am also talking testing loads at 300 and beyond.

Given your results I believe the powder is Soviet. If the powder is Soviet then probably the bullet is too. Take a picture of one and send it along.

Now, if you have any of this stuff left -- here is what you do. Pull the bullet, weigh the powder charges and record them. Then toss the powder away.

Size down the brass. Replace the primer with a CCI-200 large rifle primer or perhaps a Remington Large Rifle primer. No need for a match or bench rest primer as Lake City uses standard primers. Charge the case with 42 grains of Varget and seat a 175 Match King on top. Same overall length as those American Ballistics thingees were. Then shoot again over the chrono at a target at 300. Just hold center but record wind direction and speed best as you can. Then you can see if a difference exists in terms of speeds and accuracy.

Basically -- 50 fps equals one minute of elevation and I find that to be significant in small arms terms. Your needs may say that 100 fps is significant but either way -- learn what is important to you as you will base decisions off of your definition of 'good'.

Gene

Paslode
02-16-2009, 23:53
*Pics*

The Reaper
02-17-2009, 08:19
*Pics*

From the pic, looks like Ball powder to me.

Are there really two different colors of powder, or is that from the lighting?

TR

Paslode
02-17-2009, 11:02
It was flash and the thinner areas on the paper that created the color difference.

Paslode
02-20-2009, 20:50
Here is the grouping.

Distance was approximately 250yds (300 was too muddy). Slight cross wind from the SE @4-5mph. Temp around 55.

147g Win FMJ and 168g SMK were hand loads both with 44gr of Benchmark. The 175g American Ballistics were straight from the box. The AB looks like it did okay with 3 right about the same hole and a couple a bit off (probably me more than the ammo).

I had a case of spray paint I was pitching I did a little plinking with...The hand loads were by far more consistant with one shot, one can in orbit. I didn't have the same luck with the AB on the cans. I even had better luck with Wolf Gold 150g SP's than I did the AB.

Gene Econ
02-21-2009, 19:12
Here is the grouping.

Distance was approximately 250yds (300 was too muddy). Slight cross wind from the SE @4-5mph. Temp around 55.

147g Win FMJ and 168g SMK were hand loads both with 44gr of Benchmark. The 175g American Ballistics were straight from the box. The AB looks like it did okay with 3 right about the same hole and a couple a bit off (probably me more than the ammo).

I had a case of spray paint I was pitching I did a little plinking with...The hand loads were by far more consistant with one shot, one can in orbit. I didn't have the same luck with the AB on the cans. I even had better luck with Wolf Gold 150g SP's than I did the AB.

PL:

Hard to come to conclusions with three shot strings but I have to hand it to you that you ran an experiment and can draw some conclusions altough they are not backed by statistical power.

That 147 grain ball shot pretty well compared to the match grade others. That is kind of interesting so you may want to fire four or five each five shot strings with that load and bullet at 300 doing the same thing. Don't worry about holding for the wind. Just focus on shooting decent shots for four or five strings. Right now that 147 grain ball is flat lining and it may pay you in the long run to confirm that it will do this consistently at 300 as those bullets are much cheaper than match grade jobs.

If it shoots well at 300, chances are it will shoot well at 500. However, that 147 stuff ain't much good at distances much past 600.

Gene

Chucky
02-11-2010, 13:33
I bought a case of this stuff and it was a waste of money. For it being new ammo I couldn't get it to chamber in my custom Remington 700. My rifle will chamber HSM, BH, FGMM, Hornady Tap and Lake City M118LR.

It also shot pretty inconsistently. You could actually feel the difference in recoil between some of the rounds. I will never buy that stuff again.