View Full Version : State Dept. panel backs canceling Blackwater's Iraq contract
BMT (RIP)
12-18-2008, 05:53
http://hamptonroads.com/2008/12/state-dept-panel-backs-canceling-blackwaters-iraq-contract
BMT
I'm impressed with the overall clarity and pragmatism of the comments from the readers on this artilce. Very little actual BW bashing. Jeremy Scahill must be pissed.
I don't see it happening..
For all the bad shit that their lads have done, and we all know that only the bad shit gets talked about, BW does provide a viable service that DoD can't provide due to the total number of requirments.
I could be wrong..
Every conflict has it's scapegoat.....it's Blackwater's turn, unfortunately.....and being independent contractors it's much easier to turn your backs on them(from a governments standpoint).
Team Sergeant
12-18-2008, 13:50
Every conflict has it's scapegoat.....it's Blackwater's turn, unfortunately.....and being independent contractors it's much easier to turn your backs on them(from a governments standpoint).
Please do explain to me how/why blackwater is a scapegoat?
blackwater and blackwater alone IMO is to blame for any and all nasty comments concerning contractors.
While you're at it you might want to explain why since the Sept 2007 shooting blackwater has only been involved in two shootings compared to seventy shooting incidents "before" the Nisoor Square massacre. More training? You bet your ass.
blackwater deserves all the neg media and more.
Team Sergeant
BW should have been reigned in awhile back. However BW works for DoS and DSS specfically, the whole chain of command should be hammered for its excesses.
I suspect that no one from DoS will be punished when its all said & done.
AngelsSix
12-19-2008, 07:36
Scapegoats?? PUUUULLEEEZ. These clowns have been doing whatever they wanted for a long time now. I have personally seen the unprofessional behavior of some of these clowns in country. I understand that you can say a few bad apples don't ruin the bunch, but in this case I think the whole bunch is rotten all the way to the bottom of the basket.
Being highlighted for doing something as stupid as what occurred in Nisoor Square is not being scapegoated. The government needs to stop wasting the taxpayer's hard earned dollars on this company and use it for something more important, like keeping good folks in the military so THEY can do this work, instead of outside agencies that pay enormous amounts of money to people who are in no way professionals.
Here's some of the reason I made my statement:
The shootings happened in a crowded square where prosecutors say civilians were going about their lives, running errands. Following a car bombing elsewhere in the city, the heavily armed Blackwater convoy sought to shut down the intersection. Prosecutors said the convoy, known by the call sign Raven 23, violated an order not to leave the U.S.-controlled Green Zone.
The rest of this article can be found here: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D94UN0380&show_article=1
OK....let me clarify my comment....DoS, DSS, and the rest of the Government have turned a blind eye to the conduct and activities of IC's since they set foot in Iraq, BW included. Although alot of the IC's are professional in their duties, a large number of them are nothing more than gun-slingers with inadequate training, turned loose in a lawless environment. Carte blanc, so to speak. Finally the people stood up and demanded retribution for a criminal act, an act that had been brewing since the hangings on the bridge. Do you think the DoS, DSS, and the American Government is going to accept the responsibility for this incident? Hardly. Therefore lies the scapegoat. You have to read and understand the fine print when you sign on as an IC....if you step on your crank, you're on your on. BW had been conducting business like the Regulators of the old West. Now, 4 years later, there is over-sight. That explains the decrease in shooting incidents.
I don't condone any criminal act committed in combat (which is almost an oxymoron) and I certainly don't condone merc's being allowed to run free.....although the money is good if you can get the work.
You don't have to like what I say, and you certainly don't have to agree with me....
As Forest Gump would say...."That's all I'm going to say about that!"
Team Sergeant
12-19-2008, 09:24
OK....let me clarify my comment....DoS, DSS, and the rest of the Government have turned a blind eye to the conduct and activities of IC's since they set foot in Iraq, BW included. Although alot of the IC's are professional in their duties, a large number of them are nothing more than gun-slingers with inadequate training, turned loose in a lawless environment. Carte blanc, so to speak. Finally the people stood up and demanded retribution for a criminal act, an act that had been brewing since the hangings on the bridge. Do you think the DoS, DSS, and the American Government is going to accept the responsibility for this incident? Hardly. Therefore lies the scapegoat. You have to read and understand the fine print when you sign on as an IC....if you step on your crank, you're on your on. BW had been conducting business like the Regulators of the old West. Now, 4 years later, there is over-sight. That explains the decrease in shooting incidents.
I don't condone any criminal act committed in combat (which is almost an oxymoron) and I certainly don't condone merc's being allowed to run free.....although the money is good if you can get the work.
You don't have to like what I say, and you certainly don't have to agree with me....
As Forest Gump would say...."That's all I'm going to say about that!"
I take it you have worked for DSS? Or blackwater?
No I don't agree with anything you have to say, I also think you have a less then critical opinion of contractors and the situation they are in.
The government (DoS) has spoken and blackwater is about to lose their DoS contract, rightfully so. Hence the reason erik prince wrote a op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, blackwater is now the threatened one and will attempt to do anything to keep their heads above water.
Mac, I would to hate to hear what else you would consider "scapegoat"? IYHO?
I usually just lurk here in your AO, but with all the bashing going on, this presents another side of the story.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28299842/
updated 3:44 p.m. ET, Thurs., Dec. 18, 2008
WASHINGTON - Radio logs from a deadly 2007 shooting in Baghdad contradict U.S. government claims that Blackwater Worldwide security guards were unprovoked when they killed 14 Iraqi civilians.
Five guards face manslaughter and weapons charges for their roles in the shootings. A sixth has pleaded guilty. Prosecutors said the men unleashed a gruesome attack on unarmed Iraqis, including women, children and people trying to escape.
Blackwater communication logs from the Sept. 16, 2007, shooting suggest otherwise. The logs, turned over to prosecutors, describe a hectic eight minutes in which the guards repeatedly reported incoming gunfire from insurgents and Iraqi police. Copies of the documents were obtained by The Associated Press.
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here
Because Blackwater guards were authorized to fire in self-defense, any evidence their convoy was attacked will make it harder for the Justice Department to prove they acted unlawfully.
The logs, which document radio traffic heard by the company's dispatch center inside the U.S.-controlled Green Zone, show that the Blackwater convoy known as Raven 23 reported taking small arms fire from insurgents within one minute of shutting down traffic in Baghdad's Nisoor Square.
"Mult insuirg SAF @ R23," the log states at 12:12 p.m.
One minute later, the Raven 23 convoy reported taking fire from Iraqi police: "R23 rpts IPs shooting @ R23."
Evidence of fire fight
It's unclear why Iraqi police would fire on the Blackwater convoy. Prosecutors could argue the police fired because they believed Blackwater was attacking civilians. It also is common for insurgents to dress as Iraqi police or military officials.
Raven 23 was told to leave the square and return to the Green Zone at 12:14, according to the logs. But one minute later, the convoy reported that one of its heavily armored vehicles was disabled. Guards jumped out of another truck and set up a tow rig, still under fire, according to the logs.
"R23 in trfc still under sporadic SAF," the log shows at 12:20 p.m., as the convoy made its way back to the Green Zone.
"Unless these guys are lying to their command watch in real time, making up stuff, that's real-time reporting that they were taking small arms fire," said defense attorney Thomas Connolly, who represents Nick Slatten, a former Army sergeant and indicted Blackwater guard.
Connolly provided the logs to the AP because he said prosecutors knew there was evidence of a fire fight, yet unfairly described it as a massacre.
"The Justice Department began their presentation to the American people with a lie," Connolly said.
Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd would not discuss contents of the logs. "We cannot comment on evidence related to a pending case, but we are fully prepared to address in court arguments made by the defense concerning the documents you reference," he said.
Blackwater confirmed the authenticity of the logs but would not comment further.
A murky case
The logs add a new uncertainty to an already murky case. Iraqi witnesses say Blackwater fired the only shots. And some Raven 23 members, including at least one who set up the tow rig, told authorities they saw no gunfire, according to people close to the case who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss it publicly.
Others in the convoy told authorities they did see enemy gunfire. And Blackwater turned over to prosecutors pictures of vehicles pocked with bullet holes, which the company says proves the guards were shot at. The photos were not time-stamped, however, and the trucks were repainted and repaired by the time FBI agents began investigating.
The Iraqi government has labeled the guards "criminals" and is watching the Blackwater case closely. The shooting strained diplomacy between Washington and Baghdad and fueled the anti-American insurgency in Iraq.
U.S. prosecutors were aggressive in their charges against the guards. They used an anti-machine gun law to attach 30-year mandatory prison sentences to the charges. And though they cannot say for sure which guards shot which victims, all five guards are charged with 14 counts of manslaughter.
AngelsSix
12-19-2008, 19:05
Good to hear from you again, Frog.
IMHO, I can say that although I do not agree with the way things were handled, I do understand the strain of being in an uncertain situation and having to make split second decisions. That does NOT relieve anyone from the responsibility of where their rounds go. I am hearing the same news as everyone else on the grenade use.....I don't agree that they should have been used. But I was not there, so I can say that if I had been in that situation I am not totally sure that I would not have reacted in a similar manner. But it is drilled into everyone's heads from day one that you are behind the trigger, you are responsible for every round you fire from your gun, know what is beyond your target, etc. I teach it in weapons classes every month. I am more than certain with the level of experience of the gentlemen on this board and with the amount of combat experience of most on this board, that we can all agree on one thing; some of what happened out there may have been uncalled for. The biggest thing that gets me about the whole situation was that they probably were disobeying an order to remain on base. If that is the case, they put themselves into a situation they should not have gotten into in the first place. If my team had pulled a stunt like that in Iraq, we would have all had our weapons cards pulled, been remanded to post and more than likely been court martialed. The bottom line is that it comes down to personal responsibility and those individuals are being held responsible. I have my opinions about Blackwater. I remember when it first started out, the only folks even considered for a position were special ops or special forces. Apparently things have changed considerably.
I remember when it first started out, the only folks even considered for a position were special ops or special forces. Apparently things have changed considerably.
Current as of today job listings with quals for IC's on their website:
http://www.blackwaterusa.com/jobs/default_contract.asp
Team Sergeant
12-20-2008, 09:50
I usually just lurk here in your AO, but with all the bashing going on, this presents another side of the story.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28299842/
updated 3:44 p.m. ET, Thurs., Dec. 18, 2008
WASHINGTON - Radio logs from a deadly 2007 shooting in Baghdad contradict U.S. government claims that Blackwater Worldwide security guards were unprovoked when they killed 14 Iraqi civilians.
Five guards face manslaughter and weapons charges for their roles in the shootings. A sixth has pleaded guilty. Prosecutors said the men unleashed a gruesome attack on unarmed Iraqis, including women, children and people trying to escape.
Blackwater communication logs from the Sept. 16, 2007, shooting suggest otherwise. The logs, turned over to prosecutors, describe a hectic eight minutes in which the guards repeatedly reported incoming gunfire from insurgents and Iraqi police. Copies of the documents were obtained by The Associated Press.
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here
Because Blackwater guards were authorized to fire in self-defense, any evidence their convoy was attacked will make it harder for the Justice Department to prove they acted unlawfully.
The logs, which document radio traffic heard by the company's dispatch center inside the U.S.-controlled Green Zone, show that the Blackwater convoy known as Raven 23 reported taking small arms fire from insurgents within one minute of shutting down traffic in Baghdad's Nisoor Square.
"Mult insuirg SAF @ R23," the log states at 12:12 p.m.
One minute later, the Raven 23 convoy reported taking fire from Iraqi police: "R23 rpts IPs shooting @ R23."
Evidence of fire fight
It's unclear why Iraqi police would fire on the Blackwater convoy. Prosecutors could argue the police fired because they believed Blackwater was attacking civilians. It also is common for insurgents to dress as Iraqi police or military officials.
Raven 23 was told to leave the square and return to the Green Zone at 12:14, according to the logs. But one minute later, the convoy reported that one of its heavily armored vehicles was disabled. Guards jumped out of another truck and set up a tow rig, still under fire, according to the logs.
"R23 in trfc still under sporadic SAF," the log shows at 12:20 p.m., as the convoy made its way back to the Green Zone.
"Unless these guys are lying to their command watch in real time, making up stuff, that's real-time reporting that they were taking small arms fire," said defense attorney Thomas Connolly, who represents Nick Slatten, a former Army sergeant and indicted Blackwater guard.
Connolly provided the logs to the AP because he said prosecutors knew there was evidence of a fire fight, yet unfairly described it as a massacre.
"The Justice Department began their presentation to the American people with a lie," Connolly said.
Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd would not discuss contents of the logs. "We cannot comment on evidence related to a pending case, but we are fully prepared to address in court arguments made by the defense concerning the documents you reference," he said.
Blackwater confirmed the authenticity of the logs but would not comment further.
A murky case
The logs add a new uncertainty to an already murky case. Iraqi witnesses say Blackwater fired the only shots. And some Raven 23 members, including at least one who set up the tow rig, told authorities they saw no gunfire, according to people close to the case who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss it publicly.
Others in the convoy told authorities they did see enemy gunfire. And Blackwater turned over to prosecutors pictures of vehicles pocked with bullet holes, which the company says proves the guards were shot at. The photos were not time-stamped, however, and the trucks were repainted and repaired by the time FBI agents began investigating.
The Iraqi government has labeled the guards "criminals" and is watching the Blackwater case closely. The shooting strained diplomacy between Washington and Baghdad and fueled the anti-American insurgency in Iraq.
U.S. prosecutors were aggressive in their charges against the guards. They used an anti-machine gun law to attach 30-year mandatory prison sentences to the charges. And though they cannot say for sure which guards shot which victims, all five guards are charged with 14 counts of manslaughter.
Frog,
I really don't care if they took fire or not, they fired into a crowd of unarmed women and children.
That in itself shows a complete lack of professional training or any training.
They were not suited for the task at hand. And if blackwater was the one who hired, trained, equiped and deployed them into them into a situation that they could not handle then, IMO there should be a few more sitting facing a judge and jury.
Don't you think it odd out of the tens of thousands of "contractors" that only blackwater contractors fired into a crowd of women and children? Shitty training.
Team Sergeant
Frog,
I really don't care if they took fire or not, they fired into a crowd of unarmed women and children.
That in itself shows a complete lack of professional training or any training.
They were not suited for the task at hand. And if blackwater was the one who hired, trained, equiped and deployed them into them into a situation that they could not handle then, IMO there should be a few more sitting facing a judge and jury.
Don't you think it odd out of the tens of thousands of "contractors" that only blackwater contractors fired into a crowd of women and children? Shitty training.
Team Sergeant
Absolutely correct. BW is the biggest bull in the china-shop doing the most damage to the Iraqi's, the U.S. reputation and the reputation of the entire IC community at large.
Their only saving grace to date has been their political connections at the highest levels of our government. It's obvious now that these 4 operators are being charged as individuals in exchange, at least in part, for the Iraqi's signing the SOFA. Meanwhile BW as a company is dodging all criminal responsibility even though it was their corporate culture of 'anything goes' that allowed their operators to behave this way for a long, long time.
I have been an IC in Iraq since 2004 and believe me. Everyone that I know in the IC community wants to see BW reigned in.
It's obvious now that these 4 operators are being charged as individuals in exchange, at least in part, for the Iraqi's signing the SOFA. Meanwhile BW as a company is dodging all criminal responsibility even though it was their corporate culture of 'anything goes' that allowed their operators to behave this way for a long, long time.They were NOT operators in the military sense or any other sense, form, fashion, dream like-state, wishful thinking, by association, etc.
Stay safe.
They were NOT operators in the military sense or any other sense, form, fashion, dream like-state, wishful thinking, by association, etc.
Stay safe.
I thought 5.11 pants, Oakely desert boots, Oakley gloves, OD green hat w/ American flag and a cool black gun = operator. :rolleyes:
Team Sergeant
12-21-2008, 09:38
Some of the issues most "civilians" (to include members of Congress and the Senate) do not understand is that while we in the military train individuals for "combat" and extremely hostile environments we don’t train all military individuals the same, or for "combat".
We do not expect our supply clerks to plan raids or our wheeled vehicle mechanics to get involved in counter-sniper operations. We in the military don’t allow Air Force radar repairmen to lead heavily armed convoys through the dangerous streets of Baghdad or Navy computer specialists to sit behind a M240 machinegun while guarding some State Department diplomat in Kabul.
In the US military we place the appropriately "trained" personnel in the proper jobs and with experienced leaders/leadership.
So the next time erik prince says to congress or writes an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal stating "he only hires the military" take it with a grain of salt, it’s misdirection. I would bet all I have that blackwater and many other "contractor employers" have placed what we would call in the military call "support personnel" in harms way, heavily armed and with very little training.
This is where blackwater & erik prince is misleading the general public when they say they hire only military personnel.
Again you do not place a two year veteran such as an "Air Force Services Officer", whose Air Force job used to be:
Develops and implements plans, programs and policies for operation and oversight of food service, lodging, fitness, mortuary, recreation, child development and leisure functions.
And place this individual in charge of a heavily armed "contractor" convoy in the streets of Baghdad. But this is exactly what some of the companies are doing, and then they say, "we hired all former military personnel".
I’d be willing to bet most of those six blackwater contractors involved in the killing of 17 unarmed Iraqis had no military "combat" training, and were in fact were probably former military clerks, mechanics or "Support Personnel" trained, armed and deployed into a combat zone by blackwater for a job they were not trained to handle.
And if that is true then IMO erik prince and the blackwater leadership should also stand trial because they knew better but did it anyway, for profit.
Team Sergeant
The Reaper
12-21-2008, 09:44
They were NOT operators in the military sense or any other sense, form, fashion, dream like-state, wishful thinking, by association, etc.
Stay safe.
Exactly.
The term was originally used to refer to shooters, versus support personnel in certain SOF units.
I do not see contractors being "operators" in any sense of the word, unless they were previously in one of those units.
Of course, I am also not certain that I would refer to contracted employees of the US government as "mercenaries". That word has some serious legal baggage attached to it, and is a pejorative that the left seems to like to use.
Words mean things.
TR
S
I’d be willing to bet most of those six blackwater contractors involved in the killing of 17 unarmed Iraqis had no military "combat" training, and were in fact were probably former military clerks, mechanics or "Support Personnel" trained, armed and deployed into a combat zone by blackwater for a job they were not trained to handle.
And if that is true then IMO erik prince and the blackwater leadership should also stand trial because they knew better but did it anyway, for profit.
Team Sergeant
NAME: DONALD BALL
AGE: 26
HOMETOWN: West Valley City, Utah
SERVICE: Corporal, U.S. Marines, 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, 2001-2005. Squad team leader, two combat tours in Iraq. Honor Graduate, School of Infantry, Camp Pendleton, Calif.
HONORS: Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal for his leadership while coming under sniper fire. Certificate of Commendation for his combat service in the city of Fallujah. Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal. Combat Action Ribbon. Sea Service Deployment Ribbon (two stars). Iraq Campaign Medal. Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Presidential Unit Citation. Rifle Expert Badge. Eagle Scout.
NAME: DUSTIN HEARD
AGE: 27
HOMETOWN: Knoxville, Tenn.
SERVICE: Corporal, U.S. Marines. Security Force Battalion, First Fleet Anti-Terrorist Security Team, 2000-2003. Secured oil platforms off coast of Iraq during 2003 invasion. Member, 2nd Battalion, 8th Marines, 2003-2004. Deployed to Afghanistan. Graduate, School of Infantry, Camp Pendleton, Calif.
HONORS: Certificate of Commendation. Navy and Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal. Sea Service Deployment Ribbon. Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal. Received three certificates of appreciation from U.S. Embassy, Baghdad, for securing embassy and Ministry of Parliament and providing security for Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.
NAME: EVAN LIBERTY
AGE: 26
HOMETOWN: Rochester, N.H.
SERVICE: Headquarters Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, 2001-2002. Marine Security Detachment, U.S. Embassy, Cairo, 2002-2003. Marine Security Detachment, U.S. Embassy Guatemala City, Guatemala, 2003-2004.
HONORS: Meritorious Mast. Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal. White House Communications Agency Certificate. National Defense Service Medal. Navy and Marine Corps Overseas Service Ribbon.
NAME: NICK SLATTEN
AGE: 25
HOMETOWN: Sparta, Tenn.
SERVICE: Sergeant, U.S. Army, 82nd Airborne, 2002-2006. Two combat tours in Iraq. Graduate of Army Sniper School, Fort Benning, Ga.
HONORS: Army Good Conduct Medal. Iraq Campaign Medal. Combat Infantryman Badge. Army Commendation Award. Army Achievement Medal National Defense Service Medal. Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal. Global War on Terrorism Service Medal. Army Service Ribbon
NAME: PAUL SLOUGH
AGE: 29
HOMETOWN: Keller, Texas
SERVICE: U.S. Army, 3rd Infantry Division, 1999-2002, including tour in Bosnia. Texas National Guard, 2/142 Infantry (2002-2006), including tour in Iraq.
HONORS: Army Commendation Medal. Army Good Conduct Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Combat Infantry Badge. Driver & Mechanic Badge. Armed Forced Expeditionary Medal. Armed Forces Reserve Medal. NATO Medal. Army Service Ribbon. Overseas Service Ribbon. Global War on Terrorism Service Medal.
Team Sergeant
12-21-2008, 10:18
NAME: DONALD BALL
AGE: 26
HOMETOWN: West Valley City, Utah
SERVICE: Corporal, U.S. Marines, 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, 2001-2005. Squad team leader, two combat tours in Iraq. Honor Graduate, School of Infantry, Camp Pendleton, Calif.
HONORS: Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal for his leadership while coming under sniper fire. Certificate of Commendation for his combat service in the city of Fallujah. Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal. Combat Action Ribbon. Sea Service Deployment Ribbon (two stars). Iraq Campaign Medal. Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Presidential Unit Citation. Rifle Expert Badge. Eagle Scout.
NAME: DUSTIN HEARD
AGE: 27
HOMETOWN: Knoxville, Tenn.
SERVICE: Corporal, U.S. Marines. Security Force Battalion, First Fleet Anti-Terrorist Security Team, 2000-2003. Secured oil platforms off coast of Iraq during 2003 invasion. Member, 2nd Battalion, 8th Marines, 2003-2004. Deployed to Afghanistan. Graduate, School of Infantry, Camp Pendleton, Calif.
HONORS: Certificate of Commendation. Navy and Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal. Sea Service Deployment Ribbon. Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal. Received three certificates of appreciation from U.S. Embassy, Baghdad, for securing embassy and Ministry of Parliament and providing security for Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.
NAME: EVAN LIBERTY
AGE: 26
HOMETOWN: Rochester, N.H.
SERVICE: Headquarters Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, 2001-2002. Marine Security Detachment, U.S. Embassy, Cairo, 2002-2003. Marine Security Detachment, U.S. Embassy Guatemala City, Guatemala, 2003-2004.
HONORS: Meritorious Mast. Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal. White House Communications Agency Certificate. National Defense Service Medal. Navy and Marine Corps Overseas Service Ribbon.
NAME: NICK SLATTEN
AGE: 25
HOMETOWN: Sparta, Tenn.
SERVICE: Sergeant, U.S. Army, 82nd Airborne, 2002-2006. Two combat tours in Iraq. Graduate of Army Sniper School, Fort Benning, Ga.
HONORS: Army Good Conduct Medal. Iraq Campaign Medal. Combat Infantryman Badge. Army Commendation Award. Army Achievement Medal National Defense Service Medal. Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal. Global War on Terrorism Service Medal. Army Service Ribbon
NAME: PAUL SLOUGH
AGE: 29
HOMETOWN: Keller, Texas
SERVICE: U.S. Army, 3rd Infantry Division, 1999-2002, including tour in Bosnia. Texas National Guard, 2/142 Infantry (2002-2006), including tour in Iraq.
HONORS: Army Commendation Medal. Army Good Conduct Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Combat Infantry Badge. Driver & Mechanic Badge. Armed Forced Expeditionary Medal. Armed Forces Reserve Medal. NATO Medal. Army Service Ribbon. Overseas Service Ribbon. Global War on Terrorism Service Medal.
Frog,
You work for blackwater? (you forgot one, Jeremy P. Ridgeway, 35, of California, you got his stats too?)
I actually heard much different concerning these six individuals. MOS's would be better, DD-214's best but then again I'm sure that will come out in the trials.
TS
I would never defend BW as I have been opposed to their MO since day one. They have always been cowboys in nearly everything they have done. BUT, when it comes to their hiring and screening they do better than most (which may not be saying much). There are companies who hire former cooks and motor poolers but BW did not, neither does Triple Canopy or Dyncorp. Any of the suppliers to the WPPS/State Dept contract (BW, TC, Dyncorp) have a predeployment course which is not difficult to pass if you can shoot, move and communicate. The qual course for both the M4 and handgun are challenging but doable for motivated applicants with combat arms experience and have deployed to Iraq at least once, as most applicants had done by 2005/6. So while the bar is not that high to get onboard it is higher than a supply clerk who hasn't touched his M16 since basic could manage.
IMHO this incident and others like it come down to basic leadership that was missing long before these guys crossed the LD that day. Let's face it, these missions are really not that complicated in a tactical sense. Its not like they are doing a raid with HAHO insert and a 100 walk-out exfil. On the contrary these runs are very straitforward and in fact very repetitive. Actions en route actions on and immediate actions are the name of the game. It's basic infantry skills. They do not require a team of SF, SEAL, SAS level trained operators to execute. That level of expertise is always nice to have on the team but it is not a requirement to be succesful in what amounts to mobile small unit (infantry squad level) tactics. The hardest part is finding guys who can serve as TL's and run a tight ship in garrison and out on the road with a band of dudes who are at the core adventurers predisposed to wild behaviour. This is where BW was/is sorely lacking. Their culture across the board, at Moyock, in the man-camp, on the road, in the ops room, at the bar afterward is all bravado. That probably worked in the early days when all employees were seasoned and mature former 'operators' but over the years the bar was lowered to fill the business requirements but the corporate culture did not progress along with the balance sheet.
Frog,
You work for blackwater? (you forgot one, Jeremy P. Ridgeway, 35, of California, you got his stats too?)
I actually heard much different concerning these six individuals. MOS's would be better, DD-214's best but then again I'm sure that will come out in the trials.
TS
I have a number of friends who work there. The bio's are out in the media:
http://www.raven23.com/Photos.html
I haven't seen Ridgeway's yet.
Team Sergeant
12-21-2008, 20:06
I have a number of friends who work there. The bio's are out in the media:
http://www.raven23.com/Photos.html
I haven't seen Ridgeway's yet.
The bio's tell me nothing. Not one has an MOS and only one hints to service as an infantrymen.
One is plain stupid, you don't go to basic training then airborne school then the 82nd Airborne Division. There's a big school missing, such as the individuals MOS school.
Again, none had their MOS's or their DD-214's. I'm not convinced of anything except the individual that wrote them is attempting to defend them.
TS
Dozer523
12-22-2008, 22:37
I can't believe I'm the first to post this picture. Try googlling BW and :rolleyes:not find it.
Dozer523
12-22-2008, 23:05
Frog, on a more serious note. I went to sites you reference and got a good look at the pictures of these young BW employees.
The key word is "Young." Not one of the young men about to face a trial -- that will determine the direction of their young lives -- looks over 25. I think one of the things that the QP's are finding so offensive about this affair is where are the experienced people in leadership, command, management -- whatever you want to call it on the civilian side. SF teams are legendary because they are "old" compared to units (Infantry squads) of similiar size. When I was on Team at 29, I was "young". Mid-range didn't start until about 35 years. And there were guys in thier 40's (At the time, I thought that was "way" old!;)) And then there were lots of SGM's "kinda keepin' an eye" on things with a "word to the wise". And the officer:NCO ratio is pretty high too. Experience? Well, on Team it began long before where these young guys are -- at the point where they are really finding themselves in a fix. Finally, As TR and TS have been pointing out, Where is the accountability? On Team accountability starts with the individual, then the buddy then the other guys, the Team Sargeant and Team Leader, then the Major and SGM at the B Team and the BN Commander and the Group Commander. BW Accountability? "Here's your lawyer and we'll pick up the tab, good luck. When it's over, don't come back." And lastly, where is the training. My gosh, look at the pipeline and that is just the start. BW?
Frog, on a more serious note. I went to sites you reference and got a good look at the pictures of these young BW employees.
The key word is "Young." Not one of the young men about to face a trial -- that will determine the direction of their young lives -- looks over 25. I think one of the things that the QP's are finding so offensive about this affair is where are the experienced people in leadership, command, management -- whatever you want to call it on the civilian side. SF teams are legendary because they are "old" compared to units (Infantry squads) of similiar size. When I was on Team at 29, I was "young". Mid-range didn't start until about 35 years. And there were guys in thier 40's (At the time, I thought that was "way" old!;)) And then there were lots of SGM's "kinda keepin' an eye" on things with a "word to the wise". And the officer:NCO ratio is pretty high too. Experience? Well, on Team it began long before where these young guys are -- at the point where they are really finding themselves in a fix. Finally, As TR and TS have been pointing out, Where is the accountability? On Team accountability starts with the individual, then the buddy then the other guys, the Team Sargeant and Team Leader, then the Major and SGM at the B Team and the BN Commander and the Group Commander. BW Accountability? "Here's your lawyer and we'll pick up the tab, good luck. When it's over, don't come back." And lastly, where is the training. My gosh, look at the pipeline and that is just the start. BW?
My Points exactly, well put.
A lot of people are quick to bash BW and sometimes they deserve it and sometimes they do not. I have a lot of friends that have and are working there and are Good sound Operators. Their biggest comment is as the requirement grew the standards lowered on who was hired. For the owner of BW I personally have my opinion and it is not a good one. Why are they tossing these guys under the bus?
Ref their training it meets state requirements. You know what that means, state requirements never have meet ours. Dozer is right all those indited are very young and where were the Sr. Management individual with that detail. You never send out a team of young guys without a good seasoned Supervisor.
Why was the State department RSO that was supervising the detail not indited? Guess he is only responsible when they want him to be. There are a lot of details on this and I am not going to back seat drive this car but I feel sorry as they are being used as a scape goat in our never ending political battle between the US and IQ power struggle. Just bad timing.
Good luck guys and I hope you get a fair shake here because if you were there you would not.......
Frog, as I look at these "young" men's bio, all I see is a bunch of BS. Achievement medal for leadership under fire. (what?)
certificates of appreciation from U.S. Embassy, Baghdad, for securing embassy and Ministry of Parliament and providing security for Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. (so he worked on the outer ring of security? I doubt he was anywhere near SoS Rice)
Marine Security Detachment, U.S. Embassy, Cairo, 2002-2003. Marine Security Detachment, U.S. Embassy Guatemala City, Guatemala, 2003-2004. (sitting at his post behind thick glass and partying like a rock star at night?)
An young man with experience with the 82nd. (but no awards of leadership under fire?)
And a Driver & Mechanic Badge from the last one with a tour in Bosnia. (This has made TR's point)
As I said earlier and will continue to beat and kick this dead horse. Lack of training and experience from these young "men". But only they know their hidden agenda for leaving the military and joining BW. A quick buck? Wearing a cool BW t-shirt in the airport or at their local bar?
But the bigger question is, how much, if any, is BW paying them to keep their mouths shut and take this like a good employee?
NAME: DONALD BALL
AGE: 26
HOMETOWN: West Valley City, Utah
SERVICE: Corporal, U.S. Marines, 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, 2001-2005. Squad team leader, two combat tours in Iraq. Honor Graduate, School of Infantry, Camp Pendleton, Calif.
HONORS: Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal for his leadership while coming under sniper fire. Certificate of Commendation for his combat service in the city of Fallujah. Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal. Combat Action Ribbon. Sea Service Deployment Ribbon (two stars). Iraq Campaign Medal. Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Presidential Unit Citation. Rifle Expert Badge. Eagle Scout.
NAME: DUSTIN HEARD
AGE: 27
HOMETOWN: Knoxville, Tenn.
SERVICE: Corporal, U.S. Marines. Security Force Battalion, First Fleet Anti-Terrorist Security Team, 2000-2003. Secured oil platforms off coast of Iraq during 2003 invasion. Member, 2nd Battalion, 8th Marines, 2003-2004. Deployed to Afghanistan. Graduate, School of Infantry, Camp Pendleton, Calif.
HONORS: Certificate of Commendation. Navy and Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal. Sea Service Deployment Ribbon. Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal. Received three certificates of appreciation from U.S. Embassy, Baghdad, for securing embassy and Ministry of Parliament and providing security for Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.
NAME: EVAN LIBERTY
AGE: 26
HOMETOWN: Rochester, N.H.
SERVICE: Headquarters Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, 2001-2002. Marine Security Detachment, U.S. Embassy, Cairo, 2002-2003. Marine Security Detachment, U.S. Embassy Guatemala City, Guatemala, 2003-2004.
HONORS: Meritorious Mast. Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal. White House Communications Agency Certificate. National Defense Service Medal. Navy and Marine Corps Overseas Service Ribbon.
NAME: NICK SLATTEN
AGE: 25
HOMETOWN: Sparta, Tenn.
SERVICE: Sergeant, U.S. Army, 82nd Airborne, 2002-2006. Two combat tours in Iraq. Graduate of Army Sniper School, Fort Benning, Ga.
HONORS: Army Good Conduct Medal. Iraq Campaign Medal. Combat Infantryman Badge. Army Commendation Award. Army Achievement Medal National Defense Service Medal. Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal. Global War on Terrorism Service Medal. Army Service Ribbon
NAME: PAUL SLOUGH
AGE: 29
HOMETOWN: Keller, Texas
SERVICE: U.S. Army, 3rd Infantry Division, 1999-2002, including tour in Bosnia. Texas National Guard, 2/142 Infantry (2002-2006), including tour in Iraq.
HONORS: Army Commendation Medal. Army Good Conduct Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Combat Infantry Badge. Driver & Mechanic Badge. Armed Forced Expeditionary Medal. Armed Forces Reserve Medal. NATO Medal. Army Service Ribbon. Overseas Service Ribbon. Global War on Terrorism Service Medal.
Dozer and BHT are spot on. It is a classic case of bigger-is-rarely-best. You SF guys know this better than most. When an org is kept small (read: selective) it can keep its standards high. BW traded quantity for quality a long long time ago so it getting tossed out of Iraq is their own doing, they should point the finger no further than Moyock. Those of us working in Iraq since 2004 have seen, first-hand, their explosive growth and the misquided TTPs that they brought with them. Talk about the oposite of winning a 'hearts and minds' counterinsurgeny campaign??? They could not have been farther off the mark. The rest of us, the real professionals, have crossed our fingers and hoped for the day that DoS would wise up and show these guys the door.
FYI, there at least two dozen examples of highly professional private security firms operating in Iraq that you will likely have never heard of. Can anyname the company that has protected the ABC, NBC and CBS news crews since 2003? It's a marquise contract in the industry. I doubt if anyone could name the company, unless you are part of the industry. I won't 'out' them here but its one of the smaller boutique firms with Hereford lineage. If firms like these get it their way, 'Joe Six Pack' will never know their company's name. This is in stark contraxt to Erik Prince who prefers the Wal-Mart business model. There are many, many others who discreetly go about our business and in the process do not leave a footprint on Iraqi culture or the American reputation.
Team Sergeant
12-26-2008, 08:44
Can anyname the company that has protected the ABC, NBC and CBS news crews since 2003? It's a marquise contract in the industry. I doubt if anyone could name the company, unless you are part of the industry. I won't 'out' them here but its one of the smaller boutique firms with Hereford lineage. If firms like these get it their way, 'Joe Six Pack' will never know their company's name. This is in stark contraxt to Erik Prince who prefers the Wal-Mart business model. There are many, many others who discreetly go about our business and in the process do not leave a footprint on Iraqi culture or the American reputation.
Well when you put it that way I would only assume that those individuals that "protect" the "reporters" don’t want their names out in public, how could you go home again and face your family and friends after protecting "reporters" for ABC, CBS and NBC???
Basenshukai
12-26-2008, 14:37
Exactly.
Words mean things.
TR
A certain Chief Wimsatt used to use the same phrase while I served with him over at 7th SFG (A). It sounds a little silly at first, but after you are in this line of work, you realize how pivotal knowledge of that phrase actually appllies to things that are so important to us.