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pulque
06-02-2004, 12:35
:munchin

Pizza man saved by gun,
but fired for packin' heat
Prosecutors call it 'clear case of self-defense,' yet national chain prohibits carrying firearms

A pizza deliveryman won't face charges for fatally shooting a would-be robber several times when he was approached in a high-crime area, but his employer, Pizza Hut, has fired him for violating a company policy against carrying firearms.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38726

Sacamuelas
06-02-2004, 13:18
I think I will offer myself for sacrifice to draw out the wolves on this one...

I think exactly what should happen, DID happen. He should be cleared of any criminal wrongdoing and maybe even get a few atta' boys from his friends. But he should be looking for a new job.


I am tired of people wanting using "freedom" as an excuse for breaking known rules and ignoring responsibilities. Does he have a right to carry a weapon- yes. Does he have a right to carry when delivering in a pizza hut uniform to the public's front doors? NO, not if it is against that companies with clearly explained policies.

I can't carry my .45 on site where I work... If I choose to and have to use it to defend myself , I will be fired but that would have been MY choice. If I want to have the "FREEDOM" to carry at all times at work, then I have the "freedom" to choose a different job where that is allowed.

:munchin
**this thread may need to be moved to general discussions since it is not truly a SF weapon thread.

Roguish Lawyer
06-02-2004, 13:22
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
I think I will offer myself for sacrifice to draw out the wolves on this one...

I think exactly what should happen, DID happen. He should be cleared of any criminal wrongdoing and maybe even get a few atta' boys from his friends. But he should be looking for a new job.


I am tired of people wanting using "freedom" as an excuse for breaking known rules and ignoring responsibilities. Does he have a right to carry a weapon- yes. Does he have a right to carry when delivering in a pizza hut uniform to the public's front doors? NO, not if it is against that companies with clearly explained policies.

I can't carry my .45 on site where I work... If I choose to and have to use it to defend myself , I will be fired but that would have been MY choice. If I want to have the "FREEDOM" to carry at all times at work, then I have the "freedom" to choose a different job where that is allowed.


Will you settle for a shark? LOL

I agree.

Team Sergeant
06-02-2004, 13:24
I also agree. He has a right to carry and defend his freedom. Pizza Hut also has the right to fire him.

TS

(and that this thread belongs here)

pulque
06-02-2004, 13:37
thanks for moving this to the appropriate forum.

It sounds like we're agreeing so I guess there is no argument. I have a hard time imagining any service job that would allow one to carry

If a civ wants to pack at the workplace, then they have to be LEO, or self-employed entrepreneur.

Sacamuelas
06-02-2004, 13:47
Originally posted by pulque

If a civ wants to pack at the workplace, then they have to be LEO, or self-employed entrepreneur.

Whoah there triple ewww GWAMG!! LOL

I didn't agree to the fact that they HAVE to be either LEO or self employed. I have no trouble at all with any size company allowing its employees to carry legally on the job. It is the companies right to decide for its employees- while on the job.

Just like a lib to take an inch and stretch it a mile into some new gun control law!! ;) LOL

The Reaper
06-02-2004, 13:58
Originally posted by pulque
If a civ wants to pack at the workplace, then they have to be LEO, or self-employed entrepreneur.

I couldn't disagree more.

Do you have an LEO detailed to your protection? If not YOU are responsible for your own personal security. Some of us are more serious about that than others.

By the same token, as already stated, if you are caught in violation of a formal company policy, you risk being fired.

There are people in this country right now who would do the samer thing to you that was done to Sharon Tate, or to more recently to Mr. Berg. The only thing preventing that at any given moment is you, and your co-workers ability to protect yourselves. When the average response time to a "shots fired" call exceeds 60 seconds, what will you do to protect yourself till they arrive and form a perimeter to sort out the situation?

With your stated position, will you be crying and hiding under your desk if it happens at your workplace, waiting endlessly for the LEOs to arrive, or fighting to survive with no weapons because the corporate entity told you it was wrong?

You make your decisions, then you live (or die) with the consequences.

TR

pulque
06-02-2004, 14:03
you guys misunderstood what I said.

I would rather have the gun.

I am looking to find out if there are any jobs that allow one to pack.

I did not and WOULD NOT say that employees should not carry/protect themselves.

Sacamuelas
06-02-2004, 14:05
Sure..Sure you didn't lib!! LOL:p

The Reaper
06-02-2004, 14:26
Originally posted by pulque


thanks for moving this to the appropriate forum.

It sounds like we're agreeing so I guess there is no argument. I have a hard time imagining any service job that would allow one to carry

If a civ wants to pack at the workplace, then they have to be LEO, or self-employed entrepreneur.


Originally posted by pulque


you guys misunderstood what I said.

I would rather have the gun.

Where in the above direct quote did you say that?

Originally posted by pulque

I am looking to find out if there are any jobs that allow one to pack.

Really? Must have missed that as well.

Originally posted by pulque

I did not and WOULD NOT say that employees should not carry/protect themselves.

Really? Must be my lying eyes that read:

"If a civ wants to pack at the workplace, then they have to be LEO, or self-employed entrepreneur."

I must be missing something here, is there a hidden text function or something, or do I fail to understand the Basic English you used?

TR

pulque
06-02-2004, 14:40
Originally posted by The Reaper
I must be missing something here, is there a hidden text function or something, or do I fail to understand the Basic English you used?


Sir, as a part of my job I routinely fail to use Basic English. Sad, but true. I should have phrased it better and not relied on the context of my sentence to carry it's meaning to you, and I apologize for that.

Can anyone think of a company that encourages its employees to be prepared to defend themselves with weapons?

The Reaper
06-02-2004, 14:42
Originally posted by pulque
Sir, as a part of my job I routinely fail to use Basic English. Sad, but true. I should have phrased it better and not relied on the context of my sentence to carry it's meaning to you, and I apologize for that.

Can anyone think of a company that encourages its employees to be prepared to defend themselves with weapons?

Blackwater
Gunsite
Thunder Ranch

To name three. Need more?

TR

pulque
06-02-2004, 14:46
Originally posted by The Reaper
Blackwater
Gunsite
Thunder Ranch

To name three. Need more?

TR

Thank you. I'll look into it.

Sacamuelas
06-02-2004, 14:53
LOL!!!!
Fits with the delivery man thread topic too. I can see the ads now:


BLACKWATER SECURITY
"Producing the absolute finest quality Martyr Makin' "
Now we DELIVER 24 hrs -worldwide


haha Just kidding... back to thread! :p

I would be glad to see a few really good lookin assistants walking around with IWB holsters in my office. Oops... I can hear TR's words of wisdom already being typed after reading this, " Steady...steady Saca.....steady down there in Ms" LOL

mffjm8509
06-02-2004, 19:32
Is it Pizza Huts policy, (written or not) that their drivers deliver un-armed? If so, then they are asking for less developed individuals to come out and rob thier drivers. I know several pizza places that refuse service to an area because of these type of problems I think if they choose to send them into known bad areas (as the origional post stated) they should accept the fact that the driver reserves the right to defend himself....

I dont like pizza hut pizza anyway.........

mp

DoctorDoom
06-03-2004, 06:02
x

pulque
06-03-2004, 11:12
Originally posted by DoctorDoom
I don't know the laws specifically applicable to that state, but if the delivery man has a right to arm and protect himself, how could it be acceptable for Pizza Hut to have a policy that curbs his legal right and fire him under that policy? Corporate policy in contravention of state laws or, more significantly, Constitutional rights, should not be allowed to stand. This is a consittutional right, not something relatively unimportant like having to wear a uniform instead of a Slayer t-shirt at work or whatever...

Corporations possess by law many of the rights of personhood, including the fourteenth, fourth, first, and fifth amendments. The only state and federal laws which they must comply with, as far as I understand, are those specific to their charters, and of course antitrust law, environmental law, securities law, etc. There is nothing, to my knowledge that grants an individual more constitutional protection than the corporation.

Razor
06-03-2004, 11:42
mffjm, you have some of the best pizza right there on post (Godfather's).

Guy
06-03-2004, 12:05
Originally posted by The Reaper
Blackwater
Gunsite
Thunder Ranch

To name three. Need more?

TR

Throw in...

SAIC
State of Louisiana

mffjm8509
06-03-2004, 12:36
Originally posted by Razor
mffjm, you have some of the best pizza right there on post (Godfather's).

you know I havent eaten at a Godfathers since I was a kid......

do they let you carry concealed in there?

mp

DanUCSB
06-03-2004, 13:20
Originally posted by DoctorDoom
I don't know the laws specifically applicable to that state, but if the delivery man has a right to arm and protect himself, how could it be acceptable for Pizza Hut to have a policy that curbs his legal right and fire him under that policy?

I don't see the conflict. It's like anything else. The constitution mandates freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, but try to get a job in the kitchen while wearing a burkha, hanging out with your friends, and badmouthing your boss.

It's the same thing with carrying concealed. Presuming you have a CCW, yes, you have the right to carry and yes, they have the right to fire you. It's up to you to decide what your priority is.

DoctorDoom
06-03-2004, 17:14
x

NousDefionsDoc
06-03-2004, 18:00
I agree that what should have happened did.

DanUCSB
06-03-2004, 21:14
Originally posted by DoctorDoom
or other freedoms not specifically related to job performance.

That's the key, right there. Were this to go anywhere, I'm betting dollars to donuts that Pizza Hut's argument is that it -is- specifically related to job performance, because sales would suffer when the (largely cowed and uneducated) populace got wind that the Pizza Hut delivery guy coming to their front door might be packing. And I'd further bet that that argument would carry the day.

Let there be no mistake; I fully support the right of a man (or woman) to carry concealed, shall-issue (or better: Vermont). I'm arguing, however, about how it will play out in the real world.

The Reaper
06-03-2004, 21:24
I am surprised that RL or AL hasn't explained this better.

CORPORATE LIABILITY!

If Pizza Hut knowingly allows its drivers to pack, they could be construed to have some liability in a shooting like this. Worse yet would be a clearly wrongful or negligent shooting without any formal training to carry and employ deadly force.

I suspect that the shooter is not out of the water yet. The deceased scumbag will now have relatives piling out of the woodwork to sue the shooter in civil court for the damage, pain, and suffering created by the little "misunderstanding" with their lost loved one.

Pizza Hut may even be named in the suit.

By having the no weapons policy and releasing employees who are known to have violated it, IMHO, they reduce their corporate exposure significantly.

I would probably do the same, but give the driver a large severance package, then offer him his own franchise after a year or two.

TR

Roguish Lawyer
06-03-2004, 22:03
Originally posted by The Reaper
Pizza Hut may even be named in the suit.

May? LOL

The Reaper
06-03-2004, 22:05
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
May? LOL

Sorry, forgot The Code, for a moment.

Always go for the deepest pockets first, regardless of actual complicity or wrongdoing?

TR

Roguish Lawyer
06-03-2004, 22:06
Originally posted by The Reaper
Sorry, forgot The Code, for a moment.

Always go for the deepest pockets first, regardless of actual complicity or wrongdoing?

TR

Bingo! They probably won't even bother to name the driver.