Civilian support of war effort cowardice?

[CRod2487]

Yesterday I was told by a current active duty surface warfare officer that an able bodied civilian cannot support the Iraq war without being a coward. Personally I still dont see how this is true. I for one support many thing like the war on crime, war on drugs, and fighting disease but I am not a cop, or a doctor. Just was wondering anyone take on it.


Curt

[Pete]

I would have to disagree with the individual.

I think his statement tries to twist into the chickenhawk argument.

For somebody young and single I'd say it is a good time to sign up. For the rest, that they support the military and the war will be good enough for me.

Each makes a choice in the twists and turns as they go down the path of life.

It really sucks to hit 50 and go "I shoulda'".

For me, even the bad times are good times now.

[Richard]

I agree with Pete.

"War support is cowardice" sounds like Ministry of Truth 'speakwrite' to me, the language of Orwell's 1984.

war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength

Richard :munchin

[Remington Raidr]

My first reaction to that statement would be POSER. Are you sure he is, or has ever been, in any military service? I have met some "less than gifted" military officers, but that statement is just plain stupid. If he really is a naval officer, I predict a short career. Just congratulate him for defeating the Afghan navy.

[greenberetTFS]

I would have to disagree with the individual.

I think his statement tries to twist into the chickenhawk argument.

For somebody young and single I'd say it is a good time to sign up. For the rest, that they support the military and the war will be good enough for me.

Each makes a choice in the twists and turns as they go down the path of life.

It really sucks to hit 50 and go "I shoulda'".

For me, even the bad times are good times now.

Pete,

Well said......Right on target. ;)

GB TFS :D

[The Reaper]

My first reaction to that statement would be POSER. Are you sure he is, or has ever been, in any military service? I have met some "less than gifted" military officers, but that statement is just plain stupid. If he really is a naval officer, I predict a short career. Just congratulate him for defeating the Afghan navy.

I had a buddy at the National War College in 2004 with the best and the brightest O-6s from all of the services.

He said that over 50% of his classmates, and almost all of the Naval personnel, had Kerry stickers on their POVs.

Just sayin'....

TR

[Razor]

Yesterday I was told by a current active duty surface warfare officer that an able bodied civilian cannot support the Iraq war without being a coward.

I suppose a potential counter statement would be that an able bodied serviceman not serving in a direct combat role could be perceived as a coward. This line of reasoning makes as much sense as the SWO's--very little.

TR, even more disheartening than Kerry stickers are the several B-Ho stickers I see in the parking lot at NORTHCOM.

[echoes]

I had a buddy at the National War College in 2004 with the best and the brightest O-6s from all of the services.

He said that over 50% of his classmates, and almost all of the Naval personnel, had Kerry stickers on their POVs.

Just sayin'....

TR

Sirs,

Please allow me to agree wtih Richard on this topic in this forum, and his elude to Orwell's, 1984.

TR Sir,

Only knowing a few Navy men myself, one can be assured, weather Shipmate or SEAL, They are just as supportive of Our Nation's current leadership, in this fight we now have...IMVHO.:lifter

Holly

[Remington Raidr]

I had a buddy at the National War College in 2004 with the best and the brightest O-6s from all of the services.

He said that over 50% of his classmates, and almost all of the Naval personnel, had Kerry stickers on their POVs.

Just sayin'....

TR

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

I stand corrected.

God help us.

[CRod2487]

My first reaction to that statement would be POSER. Are you sure he is, or has ever been, in any military service? I have met some "less than gifted" military officers, but that statement is just plain stupid. If he really is a naval officer, I predict a short career. Just congratulate him for defeating the Afghan navy.

No hes legit but he is newly commissioned. He went to the Naval Academy to play a sport and is now just starting the 5 year service obligation.

[CRod2487]

I suppose a potential counter statement would be that an able bodied serviceman not serving in a direct combat role could be perceived as a coward. This line of reasoning makes as much sense as the SWO's--very little.

TR, even more disheartening than Kerry stickers are the several B-Ho stickers I see in the parking lot at NORTHCOM.

That was actually one of my thoughts during this exchange. Im only 20 and have immense respect for anyone putting on the uniform so I didnt want to call a guy out whos already put 4 years of service in the academy, on his particular role in the Navy. But then he is anti Iraq war so in his line of reasoning its OK for an able bodied person to not serve or not be in a combat role as long as their anti war.

[Penn]

Crod2487...I think you are full of it; phishing and should be banned!

[Defender968]

I don't know this kid from a hole in the wall, if he even exists, but I'm going to take a stab at this one, your story sounds like a bitter cadet who thinks he had his 250,000 dollar education fed to him backwards a nickel at a time, who went to school to play a sport and didn't totally realize that his "free" education and the chance to play college sports had a 5 year commitment to serve his country attached.

My advice to said young Ensign if he indeed exists, would be to have a steaming hot cup of shut the F$%# up at least twice daily or at any time he has the urge to whine or bitch while in uniform or in front of any other person in uniform. Whether he realizes it or not he is an officer in the US military, so he either needs to act accordingly or pay back the 250K and move to Canada.

Just my .02

[CRod2487]

Crod2487...I think you are full of it; phishing and should be banned!

No Sir this person is in fact a newly minted Ensign class of 2008 from Annapolis and he in fact did share such sentiments. I wont say his name over this board however. I also would like to add that I take no offense becuase it does sound crazy for a officer to say such things...but I have more than enough respect for the men of this forum than to take them for a ride with a tale. Just saying. Again no offense taken.

[CRod2487]

Just to be fair to him, I left the link to this thread on the facebook group board where he frequents. Dont want to turn you gentlemens forum into a feild for a pissing match but I dont like talking behind a man's back and beleive he has the right to come on here and defend himself against my criticism, even though hes the one who threw the first stone.

[blue02hd]

Crod2487...I think you are full of it; phishing and should be banned!

I have to agree on this one. CRod, why would you initiate a post like this? With all the wealth of knowledge that is available here, it seems to me you are simply waiting to talk, and listen rather poorly.

I PM'd you a question concerning your age and you have not responded in kind, however you did answer here in this thread. I guess you were too busy to respond to my PM?

[blue02hd]

Just to be fair to him, I left the link to this thread on the facebook group board where he frequents. Dont want to turn you gentlemens forum into a feild for a pissing match but I dont like talking behind a man's back and beleive he has the right to come on here and defend himself against my criticism, even though hes the one who threw the first stone.

If you have issue with this individual, please do not use this forum as a tool to discredit him. Be a man, confront him yourself, and respect the work that the moderators and QP's do to keep PS.Com respectable. And finally, fill out your profile so we have an idea of who you are.

[Remington Raidr]

No Sir this person is in fact a newly minted Ensign class of 2008 from Annapolis .. . . Just saying. Again no offense taken.

One of you is lying:

The first tour will be 24 months with the most important milestones of the initial sea tour being achievement of the Officer of the Deck (Fleet) and Surface Warfare Officer qualifications. These qualifications are designed to be completed within the first 12 to 18 months.

2008 graduate? SWO? Pffft. :rolleyes:

[D9 (RIP)]

I suppose a potential counter statement would be that an able bodied serviceman not serving in a direct combat role could be perceived as a coward.

A very good counter argument, I would say.

All due respect to naval service, but let's call it what it is. Does war really mean the same thing to the grunt in the Diyala Province as it does a Surface Warfare Officer, whatever the hell that is. I don't think so. From where I'm sitting that officer looks about as ridiculous on that high horse as any civilian.

Service, and combat service, are not interchangeable concepts.

My 0.02.

[The Reaper]

Just to be fair to him, I left the link to this thread on the facebook group board where he frequents. Dont want to turn you gentlemens forum into a feild for a pissing match but I dont like talking behind a man's back and beleive he has the right to come on here and defend himself against my criticism, even though hes the one who threw the first stone.

So, you start a contentious thread, stir the pot, and then invite him and his buddies over to defend themselves.

If that isn't trolling, I don't know what it is.

You need to check yourself, young man. This isn't a typical board.

TR

[CRod2487]

I have to agree on this one. CRod, why would you initiate a post like this? With all the wealth of knowledge that is available here, it seems to me you are simply waiting to talk, and listen rather poorly.

I PM'd you a question concerning your age and you have not responded in kind, however you did answer here in this thread. I guess you were too busy to respond to my PM?


blue, My apologies it seems im still getting the hang of it here. I thought your private message was a request to fill my profile out with my age which I did. My current age is 20 and I turn 21 in a few months. I honestly wanted to hear what actual war fighters thought of that line of reasoning and this is the only way I know of asking professional warriors.

[CRod2487]

So, you start a contentious thread, stir the pot, and then invite him and his buddies over to defend themselves.

If that isn't trolling, I don't know what it is.

You need to check yourself, young man. This isn't a typical board.

TR


It could be taken that way Sir and I will stop it starts.

[Mike]

"coward" is a tough word or concept.Some are a lot less cut for actual combat than others.
Some of the "lesser cut" have done pretty good when required.

My favorite word is "freeloader."
It applies to anyone who never bothered to put on a military uniform.
"Yellow bellied cocksucker" doesn't fly in polite conversation.

[ZonieDiver]

"coward" is a tough word or concept.Some are a lot less cut for actual combat than others.
Some of the "lesser cut" have done pretty good when required.

My favorite word is "freeloader."
It applies to anyone who never bothered to put on a military uniform.
"Yellow bellied cocksucker" doesn't fly in polite conversation.

No, it may not - but is sure is apropos!

[exsquid]

CRod:

You are an idiot if you lend any credence to what a newly minted SWO Ensign says, especially a "ring knocker" at that. The Naval Academy produces "leaders" who are extremely well educated but lack any understanding what leadership really is. There is a reason why Academy grads are ridiculed in the fleet.

x/S

[Defender968]

CRod:

You are an idiot if you lend any credence to what a newly minted SWO Ensign says, especially a "ring knocker" at that. The Naval Academy produces "leaders" who are extremely well educated but lack any understanding what leadership really is. There is a reason why Academy grads are ridiculed in the fleet.

x/S

You know it's funny, the AF Academy produces the same types of Lieutenants, most are not only not good leaders, they're socially retarded for the first couple of years of duty.

[HOLLiS]

It is one of those statements, I would need to ask more to know more. It sounds like he is saying, "That if you support the war and are able to fight, then enlist."

I am amazed that a person who graduated from the US Naval Academy offered such a narrow minded statement. It demeans the service to this country by any civilian who is not in the military. We have EMTs, LEOs, Firefighters, Agents, Teachers ect. who serve(d) this country. I can not think of a more heroic group of people who on 9/11, went into buildings to save lives and never came out.

The guy sounds full of himself. Kind of reminds me of a presidential candidate who lost the last election.

[Mike]

In my narrow personal view, one does not get a pass simply by being a fireman or a cop.

Serve your country then work for your community.
Many cops and firefighters are vets.
A cop or fireman has the option of turning in his gear at the end of his shift.
Serving ones country requires considerably more effort.

I know a couple nonvets (shirkers) I can tolerate to degree.
I would never let my sister marry one, though.

[Constant]

You know it's funny, the AF Academy produces the same types of Lieutenants, most are not only not good leaders, they're socially retarded for the first couple of years of duty.

X2
Considering I'm stationed on the Academy, I see it first hand every day.

[Dozer523]

Civilains can "support the war" all they want but they are still civilians.
They can support the servicemen all they want to and they are still civilians. They can put little magnetic yellow ribbons on thier cars, still civilians.
They can pay for my regular coffee at starbucks to say "thankyou for all you do". I'm always polite and say "Well, THANK you . . . for your patriotism"
All that does is save me $1.98.

It doesn't really make me feel appreciated for my "sacrifice" or "all you do". Even less so when my benefactor is between the ages of 18 and 30. (Because I'm old and in the Guard and I went to Afghanistan.) When I get asked, "Why are you doing this", I usually answer "Well, the Army taught me how to do it and I remember most of it and it's a lot of fun . . . Since they seem to need somebody to do it, I'm happy I can help." Sometimes I mention that my oldest son is on his second tour and I say, "What I'd REALLY LIKE is to stand right next to him, but since I can't any soldier will do."

What I'd LIKE TO SAY is, "I'm doing it because you aren't."

But I NEVER EVER say that . . .

. . . because sometimes they will spring for a cookie too.

one thousand, two thousand, three thous . . .

[greenberetTFS]

"coward" is a tough word or concept.Some are a lot less cut for actual combat than others.
Some of the "lesser cut" have done pretty good when required.

My favorite word is "freeloader."
It applies to anyone who never bothered to put on a military uniform.
"Yellow bellied cocksucker" doesn't fly in polite conversation.

Mike,

:D:D:D

GB TBS :munchin

[RB]

What I'd LIKE TO SAY is, "I'm doing it because you aren't."

But I NEVER EVER say that . . .

. . . because sometimes they will spring for a cookie too.

one thousand, two thousand, three thous . . .


Great post!! Well said!!

[coolshock1]

Civilains can "support the war" all they want but they are still civilians.
They can support the servicemen all they want to and they are still civilians. They can put little magnetic yellow ribbons on thier cars, still civilians.
They can pay for my regular coffee at starbucks to say "thankyou for all you do". I'm always polite and say "Well, THANK you . . . for your patriotism"
All that does is save me $1.98.

It doesn't really make me feel appreciated for my "sacrifice" or "all you do". Even less so when my benefactor is between the ages of 18 and 30. (Because I'm old and in the Guard and I went to Afghanistan.) When I get asked, "Why are you doing this", I usually answer "Well, the Army taught me how to do it and I remember most of it and it's a lot of fun . . . Since they seem to need somebody to do it, I'm happy I can help." Sometimes I mention that my oldest son is on his second tour and I say, "What I'd REALLY LIKE is to stand right next to him, but since I can't any soldier will do."

What I'd LIKE TO SAY is, "I'm doing it because you aren't."

But I NEVER EVER say that . . .

. . . because sometimes they will spring for a cookie too.

one thousand, two thousand, three thous . . .

Before I post my thoughts I would first like to say thank you to all of the QP's for allowing anyone outside of your circle to join your site. I have done a lot of reading on your site since I stumbled upon it and have gained a fair amount of knowledge from it while I also have had some misconceptions straightened out. Not that it matters but I respect what all of you do or have done and thank you for your service.

The reason why I quoted Dozer's response is because at first I was offended by him not caring that someone wanted to thank him for what he had done for our country. Then I asked myself who was I to get offended? Then I re-read the entire thread again and thought about it for a while and something still bothered me. What if it was I that bought you your coffee and even a cookie? Even though on the outside I seem very able bodied and fit enough to serve internally physically I am not. Mentally I am 100% able and willing, however I have a genetic disease that prevents me from going long periods of time without eating and being exposed to direct sunlight for long periods of time. I know 100% the military would never accept me. I can't support you by being armed and watching your left, your right or your back. All I can do is pray for you, show my support in political ways and buy you a cup of coffee and say thanks.

I'm not writing this to offend anyone and I hope I haven't. You probably won't see me post again but this for some reason felt kind of like a slap in the face and stuck with me. So next time someone buys you a cup of coffee and a cookie yes it could be someone that chose not serve but then again it could be someone like me whose opportunity to serve or not was not his/her choice.

Once again THANK YOU for all that you guys have sacrificed as well as the knowledge that you have shared here. If anyone would like to know just what it is I am afflicted with I would be more than happy to PM you info on it.

Respectfully,

Dan.

[Team Sergeant]

Before I post my thoughts I would first like to say thank you to all of the QP's for allowing anyone outside of your circle to join your site. I have done a lot of reading on your site since I stumbled upon it and have gained a fair amount of knowledge from it while I also have had some misconceptions straightened out. Not that it matters but I respect what all of you do or have done and thank you for your service.

The reason why I quoted Dozer's response is because at first I was offended by him not caring that someone wanted to thank him for what he had done for our country. Then I asked myself who was I to get offended? Then I re-read the entire thread again and thought about it for a while and something still bothered me. What if it was I that bought you your coffee and even a cookie? Even though on the outside I seem very able bodied and fit enough to serve internally physically I am not. Mentally I am 100% able and willing, however I have a genetic disease that prevents me from going long periods of time without eating and being exposed to direct sunlight for long periods of time. I know 100% the military would never accept me. I can't support you by being armed and watching your left, your right or your back. All I can do is pray for you, show my support in political ways and buy you a cup of coffee and say thanks.

I'm not writing this to offend anyone and I hope I haven't. You probably won't see me post again but this for some reason felt kind of like a slap in the face and stuck with me. So next time someone buys you a cup of coffee and a cookie yes it could be someone that chose not serve but then again it could be someone like me who opportunity to serve or not was not his/her choice.

Once again THANK YOU for all that you guys have sacrificed as well as the knowledge that you have shared here. If anyone would like to know just what it is I am afflicted with I would be more than happy to PM you info on it.

Respectfully,

Dan.

We understand quite well not everyone can serve, but, most everyone can contribute in some way. If not to the war effort at least to the men and women in uniform.

"The Marine Corps is fighting the war, America is at the mall"

Sometimes that's just how I feel about America, exactly what some Marine wrote while fighting the war in Iraq.

Team Sergeant

[coolshock1]

Sir I agree with you 100%. Thanks for allowing me to say what I had to say. I'll go back to my observation post now.

[RB]

Sir I agree with you 100%. Thanks for allowing me to say what I had to say. I'll go back to my observation post now.

Great post!! Well spoken, well said.

You are not included in the able bodied folks spoken of before. You get waaaaaay more respect for your thoughts and your thanks than those who could serve and shirk.

There is a major difference between you and them, sir.

I still get goose bumps and well up when someone thanks me for my service. It means more than you think.

Do not let anyone stop you from the way you think.

Charlie Mike and do not go to your OP. Your thoughts are more than welcome here.

Hell, I got goose bumps writing this.

[jatx]

Sir I agree with you 100%. Thanks for allowing me to say what I had to say. I'll go back to my observation post now.

Don't stop expressing your support to military personnel whom you encounter just because some may not react positively to it. They are a very small minority.

There is nothing like finding out that an anonymous stranger, probably without a pot to piss in, just paid for your dinner and left without saying a word.

There is nothing like a young mother walking her little boy over to you because he wants to shake your hand, or sit on your lap for a minute and play with all the velcro you're wearing.

There is nothing like an old woman approaching you and your buddies in a public place with tears in her eyes, choking out the words THANK YOU.

There is nothing like the first time your girlfriend is with you in public while you're in uniform, then asks later, "Did you see how people looked at you - like you were ten feet tall?" (For the record, I am 5'8" and look pretty harmless)

These things have all happened to me over the past year.

Me - I prefer just to give them a heartfelt smile and say, "It's my pleasure!" And it is.

[Dozer523]

The reason why I quoted Dozer's response is because at first I was offended by him not caring that someone wanted to thank him for what he had done for our country. Then I asked myself who was I to get offended?

I'm not writing this to offend anyone and I hope I haven't. You probably won't see me post again but this for some reason felt kind of like a slap in the face and stuck with me.

Dear Dan.

First -- to the second part of your quote. I'm not offended and I know you did not mean to offend. Your post is very well reasoned and presented. I hope you will accept that I didn't mean it as slap in YOUR face. I read your profile, I read your response. You said you would serve if you could, good enough for me. Second -- to the First part of your post. BUT. Those able-bodied, pro-war young people who won't actually serve in what they claim to support because it's not what they want to do, offend me. They only have selfish reasons -- "I want to finish college, I have a good job, I need to be with my loved ones . . ." Sorry! What about the young soldiers on their second, third and (by now) fourth tours? Don't you suppose they would probably like to have those things too? But since my coffee partiot thinks his patriotic dues are paid- in- full with a cup of coffee, the same soldier (the real patriot) get a second, third, fourth opportunity to die his fellow citizens . . . for the Barista? Hmmm.

Dan, I'll drink your coffee, eat your cookie, ( I love those toffee chocklet chip ones!) and I'll mean it when I say "thanks". Just like I mean it when the Vets and retired guys say it. (of course they try not to point out that I must be nuts or how jealous they are;)

PS post away. some of us (And you know you are!) need to be reeled back into reality occassionally.:D

[HQ6]

I see both sides of this one. While I agree that some have turned "Support the Troops" into a catch phrase, there are those who support (and sacrifice for) the troops who have never worn a uniform. I have asked my step-mother and brother who have never sent so much as an email to my husband while he was deployed to remove the yellow ribbons they had on their cars. It has nothing to do with whether or not either of them have served. Rather it has everything to do with the disingenuous nature of their sentiment.

[Sigaba]

I am a civilian who decided not to serve. I made this decision consciously after conferring with an instructor in the military science department at the University of California.

He explained to me that, as an aspiring military and naval historian, I could reasonably expect skepticism from members of the armed services for never having worn a uniform.

I balanced this information against my growing perception of the widespread hostility and ignorance of many civilians towards the armed services. This hostility was most evident in the peace and conflict studies program and, to a lesser extent, the history department. (I eventually decided against staying at Cal for graduate school because I knew I'd have as an adviser a historian who blamed the United States for the Cold War and had more faith in Stalin than in Roosevelt.)

I believed that I could best fulfill my aspiration to help bridge the gap between civilians and soldiers by remaining a civilian. That way, a skeptical civilian would never be able to say "of course you argue that...you were in the 'military'."

I have profound and sincere respect for the women and men who serve. I have demonstrated that respect as an academic through my research and my writing. While I've not yet rung the bell and completed my thesis, the work I have done has, in a small way, challenged many left-leaning scholars' sensibilities toward the armed services.

On a couple of occasions, I've expressed my appreciation and respect to men and women in uniform. Now, it is my understanding that some members of the armed services may not only view my efforts with skepticism but with something that strikes me as contempt. That this realization bothers me is my problem, and my problem alone.

However, there's a larger issue at stake. Through the course of my research and reading of published works, I have noticed that the armed services have best been able to address their needs when they collaborate with civilians on a basis of mutual respect. For example, during the late 1800s, many reformers in the army held a certain contempt towards civilians. This contempt made it difficult for them to communicate with politicians who might have agreed with them. During that same interval and into the next century, the navy made its case for a larger, modern, ocean-going fleet by engaging Americans into the broader discussions over strategy and policy. By 1893, Americans could speak of the "new" navy. As late as 1941, Americans were still speaking about the "old" army.

My point here is that while a serviceman has every right to think what he or she wants about civilians who will never be anything more than just 'civilians', this sensibility has had and, if Dale Herspring (http://www.amazon.com/Rumsfelds-Wars-Arrogance-Modern-Studies/dp/0700615873/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222470376&sr=8-3) is correct, continues to have, a negative impact on the army itself. In my view, this is everyone's problem.

[Penn]

I have not liked this thread from the start.

The poster, in my interpretation of the question phrases it in such a way that it is inflammatory. If you support the troops, the war etc., then prove it by serving, if not, then by implication, it is a presumption of your lacking moral courage. Either way, the question is not a consideration, but an implied argument, meant to incite emotions which are irreconcilable, proof of which is contained some of the post.
If anything, the question has caused some to clarify their decision of having signed, or not, a contract to “protect and defend”. Its bullshit, there are literally millions who have signed, from MOS auto jockeys to Jet drivers, and for every reason under the sun. It does not prove anything. The trouble is: that the question is posed on this site; a site with a distinctive tonal quality and association. As a result, those who have not served are needlessly expressing why. Further, some who have are replacing the traditional humility and pride associated with service, and employing a sense of arrogance of having done so.

So let’s put it in its proper perspective; there are over 10K members. I would venture to guess that less than 20% that have served, have ever been in a situation to have had to pull a trigger with intent to do harm

I have a friend, a lawyer, who every Fourth of July reads the Constitution of the United States. He has never served. Should he questions his decision, or reason it for us? Or, my childhood best friend that I went to Nam with, a SS, PH, and CIB holder; who would never have a condescending thought of anyone who said thanks for your service.

You signed the dotted line? You decided not too? Who cares, it validates nothing.

…I don’t know how it all got started,
I don’t know what they’re doing with their lives
Some are mathematicians some are carpenters wives
Me, I’m still on the road looking for another joint
We always did feel the same,
We just saw it from a different point
Of view
Tangled up in Blue

Dylan

[wallowinginfun]

I joined mostly because I thought the Army would give me a little well needed discipline, and because I felt I needed some time to mature before I started college. I never once thought in 2000 I'd end up doing anything riskier than a tour in Kosovo. In retrospect my time in the middle east was the most productive in my life, and it changed my perspective on a lot of things.

When someone thanks me for my service it makes me a little uncomfortable, because I never really paid what was going on back home any mind. I spent my time overseas feeling that was where I belonged, because me and the other guys were supposed to take care of each other. I never really thought about the people back home, except my family.

The only time it bothers me is when they act like a real oxygen thief.

[AngelsSix]

I raised my hand because the others did not. It's that simple and it only means something to me and mine. And in the end game, it will only mean something to me and mine because the others will go on as they always have.