PDA

View Full Version : Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS


JJ_BPK
07-25-2008, 07:32
"That the problem with Africa is Africans and that aid won't cure it is a truth that almost everyone skates around. One Compassionate Irish columnist has finally had enough of the prevarications, however, and has spoken out." Hibernia Girl

I have a rather dicey editorial I would like you to read and I would enjoy and encourage your comments.

The writer is Kevin Myers, a well published Irish journalist, currently writing for the Irish Independent. Kevin talks about his experiences in Africa and his thoughts of Africa's future. Kevin is well traveled in Africa, including trips during the famine years in the 80'tys when Bob Geldof was active with the Feed The World campaign. The population of Ethiopia has doubled because of that effort,, and they are still starving. And that is what Kevin talks about...

Kevin's ideas about World population growth are real, they need vocalization. It's a problem we need to get the World to address, because population growth is not just an isolated African problem. Pick any news source in the world and read about immigration "reform" and social welfare..

Warning: The topic(s) as discussed by Kevin may be offensive to those with: Conservative Religious Convictions, Left Leaning Socialist Ideologies, and most anyone with who think their fellow man is not the problem. The rest of us can start to contemplate the inevitable..

Comment: I did not "correct" any of the European spelling.

From Kevin's wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Myers

STYLE: Myers' Irish Times articles were often in contrast to its editorial
position, which led to some conflict with his editors. In early January
2005, the Irish Times refused to publish a column in which he accused the
Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) of responsibility for the Northern
Bank robbery. The column was later published by the Daily Telegraph. He
often advocates support for the United States, though he is sometimes
critical of the foreign policies of the Bush administration. He ultimately
endorsed the 2003 invasion of Iraq. He has praised George W. Bush, but has
also described him as 'mad'. He is frequently critical of anti-war
activists. Myers is skeptical of the viability of multiculturalism and
favours limits on immigration to prevent the growth of racial tension in
Ireland. He has criticised the Catholic Church in many pieces, and favours
the legalisation of prostitution. In recent articles he has been critical of
Islamic fundamentalism and extremism. In his journalism Myers has opposed
the classification of Travellers as an ethnic minority, and has opposed
feminist philosophy and the role of trade unions in setting economic policy.
He has written against the compensation culture and has opposed state
policies towards the Irish language.


Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS, By Kevin Myers,
Thursday, July 24, 2008

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/africa-is-giving-nothing-to-anyone--apart-from-aids-1430428.html

No. It will not do. Even as we see African states refusing to take action
to restore something resembling civilisation in Zimbabwe, the begging bowl
for Ethiopia is being passed around to us, yet again. It is nearly 25 years
since Ethiopia's (and Bob Geldof's) famous Feed The World campaign, and in
that time Ethiopia's population has grown from 33.5 million to 78 million
today.

So why on earth should I do anything to encourage further catastrophic
demographic growth in that country? Where is the logic? There is none. To be
sure, there are two things saying that logic doesn't count. One is my
conscience, and the other is the picture, yet again, of another wide-eyed
child, yet again, gazing, yet again, at the camera, which yet again,
captures the tragedy of . . . Sorry. My conscience has toured this territory
on foot and financially. Unlike most of you, I have been to Ethiopia; like
most of you, I have stumped up the loot to charities to stop starvation
there. The wide-eyed boy-child we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a
priapic, Kalashnikov-bearing hearty, siring children whenever the whim takes
him.

There is, no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory
and dysfunctional economic, social and sexual system; but I do not know what
it is. There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a column like
this. It will win no friends, and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of,
well, the self-righteous, letter-writing wrathful, a species which never
fails to contaminate almost every debate in Irish life with its sneers and
its moral superiority. It will also probably enrage some of the finest men
in Irish life, like John O'Shea, of Goal; and the Finucane brothers, men
whom I admire enormously. So be it.

But, please, please, you self-righteously wrathful, spare me mention of
our own Famine, with this or that lazy analogy. There is no comparison.
Within 20 years of the Famine, the Irish population was down by 30pc. Over
the equivalent period, thanks to western food, the Mercedes 10-wheel truck
and the Lockheed Hercules, Ethiopia's has more than doubled.

Alas, that wretched country is not alone in its madness. Somewhere, over
the rainbow, lies Somalia, another fine land of violent, Kalashnikov-toting,
khat-chewing, girl-circumcising, permanently tumescent layabouts. Indeed, we
now have almost an entire continent of sexually hyperactive indigents, with
tens of millions of people who only survive because of help from the outside
world.

This dependency has not stimulated political prudence or commonsense.
Indeed, voodoo idiocy seems to be in the ascendant, with the next president
of South Africa being a firm believer in the efficacy of a little tap water
on the post-coital penis as a sure preventative against infection. Needless
to say, poverty, hunger and societal meltdown have not prevented idiotic
wars involving Tigre, Uganda, Congo, Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea etcetera.

Broad brush-strokes, to be sure. But broad brush-strokes are often the way
that history paints its gaudier, if more decisive, chapters. Japan, China,
Russia, Korea, Poland, Germany, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the 20th
century have endured worse broad brush-strokes than almost any part of
Africa. They are now -- one way or another -- virtually all giving aid to or
investing in Africa, whereas Africa, with its vast savannahs and its lush
pastures, is giving almost nothing to anyone, apart from AIDS.

Meanwhile, Africa's peoples are outstripping their resources, and causing
catastrophic ecological degradation. By 2050, the population of Ethiopia
will be 177 million: The equivalent of France, Germany and Benelux today,
but located on the parched and increasingly protein-free wastelands of the
Great Rift Valley.

So, how much sense does it make for us actively to increase the adult
population of what is already a vastly over-populated, environmentally
devastated and economically dependent country? How much morality is there in
saving an Ethiopian child from starvation today, for it to survive to a life
of brutal circumcision, poverty, hunger, violence and sexual abuse,
resulting in another half-dozen such wide-eyed children, with comparably
jolly little lives ahead of them? Of course, it might make you feel better,
which is a prime reason for so much charity. But that is not good enough.

For self-serving generosity has been one of the curses of Africa. It has
sustained political systems which would otherwise have collapsed. It
prolonged the Eritrean-Ethiopian war by nearly a decade. It is inspiring
Bill Gates' programme to rid the continent of malaria, when, in the almost
complete absence of personal self-discipline, that disease is one of the
most efficacious forms of population-control now operating. If his programme
is successful, tens of millions of children who would otherwise have died in
infancy will survive to adulthood, he boasts. Oh good: then what?I know. Let
them all come here. Yes, that's an idea.

The Reaper
07-25-2008, 08:53
I think he is one of the few writers I have read who is delivering the unvarnished truth.

Nature is a cruel mistress, and one day, her reckoning will come.

TR

Caleb
07-25-2008, 09:01
I think he's saying what a lot of people want to say. The article makes me slightly uncomfortable, but it does raise some very compelling points.

JacobGL
07-25-2008, 16:53
True.

BryanK
07-25-2008, 17:02
I agree wholeheartedly. Some may construe this as "bashing", but the truth hurts. If America was the same way demographically, I would hope that any logical person would concur.

FMF DOC
07-25-2008, 17:35
Agree 110% with the article and your comments,,, Lets see how far this gets and how many networks pick up this story. I'm betting little to none. Big Brother doesn't like it when the truth comes out.

frostfire
07-25-2008, 21:23
is there any fan of the Saw movies? The moral of the movies apply here:

You can't help those who who won't help themselves.

*Having said this, I do know few African immigrants who contributed to the science and technology development in this country. IIRC, there was also an 18X-ray who's an immigrant from Sudan who died for this country. Nevertheless, broad brush, yet still the truth.

Guy
07-27-2008, 03:28
Embrace Africa as the "Mother" land!:rolleyes:

I'll stick with the USofA as my "mother" land! "Mom has been pretty good to me!":D:lifter

Stay safe.

exsquid
07-27-2008, 10:44
When the colonial powers left Africa, the Africans kept the worst part of the European system, namely minority rule & systemic corruption, combined it with the worst part of their own "culture", tribalism & superstition, and created history's largest shit sandwich. IMO, they are absolutely beyond help.

x/S

uboat509
07-27-2008, 11:23
I have been to Chad and have done county studies on several other North and West African countries and I came to the conclusion long ago that we cannot save Africa until Africa decides that it wants to be saved. It reminds me of a strung out, worn down but highly talented singer who has emphysema at age 24. Everybody feels sorry for her and they want to help her so they keep sending her to rehab but until she decides to get clean they are just burning money.

SFC W

nmap
07-31-2008, 03:58
Africa faces a problem called environmental overshoot. A book, circa the 1980's, titled "Overshoot" and written by Catton speaks to the problem. One can get some idea of the likely outcome of the situation by looking at the fate of the reindeer on St. Matthew's Island. In the case of Africa, aid merely extends and exacerbates the problem of overshoot.

The underlying problem was and is exponential growth. As long as a population continues growing, it will ultimately outgrow the ability of the environment to sustain it. The correction among species other than people invariably involves a massive dieoff; in the case of the reindeer mentioned above, population went from around 50, to 6,000 - and then back to 50.

Can innovation change the pattern? If the world taught Africa better ways to farm, would that solve the problem? I think not, though I realize my view will be in a minority. For the last 60 years or so, the fruits of the U.S. Agriculture Department's Green Revolution have supplied the world with cheap and abundant food. Notice that global population increased over that time from about 2 billion to the present 6.5 billion. If the foundation of the Green Revolution changes, the implications for the global population, as well as the geopolitical situation, become rather interesting - because the rest of the world continues increasing its population too. So far, our innovations - the Green Revolution - have permitted us to avoid the consequences. Will new innovations continue to stave off Malthus' predictions? I doubt it; but I guess we'll find out in the next 25 years or so.

Guy
07-31-2008, 05:51
At least not in my life time.

You can read and study about Africa until you're BLUE in the face; 10 years from now, they'll be worst off unless...

Some "modern-age" country installs a dictator that's NOT corrupt.:lifter

Haiti is still a shit-hole and we put that bastard Aristide back in there; look where he's at now.:rolleyes:

Oh well...stay safe.

Geenie
07-31-2008, 06:55
I admire Meyers' boldness in stating what needs to be said, namely that the current strategy in Africa isn't working. I regret, however, that he doesn't offer any kind of proposed solution, except maybe an implicit "just let them die" --
I will concede that many people need to be "woken up" and made to realize that merely giving more food to an increased population will not solve the problem in the long term, but instead result in another increase in population. However, I predict that Meyers states the truth a little bit too aggressively for it to be agreeable for the sheeple that make up most of our society. That's a different matter though.

Clearly the problem in these countries is corruption. We see the same thing in Afghanistan and Iraq, namely international money not winding up where it's intended to go.
In my opinion the international community's responsibility ends at the doorstep of the nation in question the minute the aid is handed over. Clearly we cannot invade a country and say "You make sure the money winds up in the right hands, or else!", but, to be fair, neither can the sick, poor, uneducated, wide-eyed families living in rural Africa. I don't know if it's quite fair to cite the old "You can't help someone who won't help themselves" - I would argue that where there is corruption there is oppression and when there is oppression it is hard for the people to rise up. Look at the "elections" in Zimbabwe.

So what can be done? It's easy to say "do nothing and let the situation resolve itself" -- I'm sure many of the people on this board are aware of the kind of consequences that can arise when you leave a country unchecked.

EDIT: logic.

nmap
07-31-2008, 07:32
Clearly the problem in these countries is corruption.

But is it really? As an experiment, let us suppose a perfect country with perfect, wise, and absolutely honest leadership. (Talk about an extreme assumption....).

In the experiment, the aid gets to the intended recipients. People act as they usually do, with the net result of more people. In addition, health aid might get through, resulting in decreased mortality, both infant and otherwise. Therefore, the population should increase at a rate at least as high as Nigeria - which is 2.38%. If we round that up to 2.4%, in just 30 years the population will double.

I question whether any leadership, anywhere, can uplift a country for the existing population plus the rapidly expanding new population. I question whether aid can keep up with such increases. By putting off the problem, we make the problem worse - and honest leaders would paradoxically make things worse.

It's true that no one likes to hear the conclusion. And I agree that people will not accept it. The results should be interesting.

The Reaper
07-31-2008, 09:15
I admire Meyers' boldness in stating what needs to be said, namely that the current strategy in Africa isn't working. I regret, however, that he doesn't offer any kind of proposed solution, except maybe an implicit "just let them die" --
I will concede that many people need to be "woken up" and made to realize that merely giving more food to an increased population will not solve the problem in the long term, but instead result in another increase in population. However, I predict that Meyers states the truth a little bit too aggressively for it to be agreeable for the sheeple that make up most of our society. That's a different matter though.

Clearly the problem in these countries is corruption. We see the same thing in Afghanistan and Iraq, namely international money not winding up where it's intended to go.
In my opinion the international community's responsibility ends at the doorstep of the nation in question the minute the aid is handed over. Clearly we cannot invade a country and say "You make sure the money winds up in the right hands, or else!", but, to be fair, neither can the sick, poor, uneducated, wide-eyed families living in rural Africa. I don't know if it's quite fair to cite the old "You can't help someone who won't help themselves" - I would argue that where there is corruption there is oppression and when there is oppression it is hard for the people to rise up. Look at the "elections" in Zimbabwe.

So what can be done? It's easy to say "do nothing and let the situation resolve itself" -- I'm sure many of the people on this board are aware of the kind of consequences that can arise when you leave a country unchecked. Afghanistan and Iraq being points in case, in my opinion.

I think your youth and idealism are shining through.

The issue is not just corruption, but social irresponsibility. Of course, look at the problems even a tightly controlled country like China has enforcing the "one child" policy.

If you (and your neighbors) breed like lemmings, you should expect the same sort of periodic population correction, and there is nothing we can, or necessarily should do about it. The population will continue to increase until we can no longer feed them all, at which point our nation could collapse as well.

I fail to see the connection between the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan and gross overpopulation in Africa.

TR

Guy
07-31-2008, 10:20
So what can be done? It's easy to say "do nothing and let the situation resolve itself" -- I'm sure many of the people on this board are aware of the kind of consequences that can arise when you leave a country unchecked.

EDIT: logic.Sterilization

Stay safe.

Go Devil
07-31-2008, 11:32
If you (and your neighbors) breed like lemmings, you should expect the same sort of periodic population correction, and there is nothing we can, or necessarily should do about it. The population will continue to increase until we can no longer feed them all, at which point our nation could collapse as well. :lifter

Hear! Hear!

Spitting out large numbers of children without the ability to personally feed, care for, and mentor is very similar to buying things you can't afford!

Steve Martin was involved in a similar situation.
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/05/05lbuy.phtml

Soylent Green could be a possible option for those that are not responsible breeders. ;)

exsquid
07-31-2008, 13:15
I was not going to voice this opinion, but since Guy went there... IMO any food aid that we provide to anyone, anywhere, should be chemically treated to make the consumer sterile as long as they continue to consume it. If you can not feed yourself than you should not reproduce.

x/S

frostfire
07-31-2008, 21:28
I was not going to voice this opinion, but since Guy went there... IMO any food aid that we provide to anyone, anywhere, should be chemically treated to make the consumer sterile as long as they continue to consume it. If you can not feed yourself than you should not reproduce.

x/S
Thanks exsquid and Guy. Now I don't feel like a b*stard anymore for contemplating putting something (depo provera) in the drinking water (or any general public consumption) that would sterilize people in a certain 3rd world country when I was 15

Bigblue
08-01-2008, 11:18
Embrace Africa as the "Mother" land!:rolleyes:

I'll stick with the USofA as my "mother" land! "Mom has been pretty good to me!":D:lifter

Stay safe.


Guy,

Allow me to explain. Black Americans/African Americans (or whatever the category is now a days) view Africa as the "Motherland" for historic and symbolic reasons. I was born in the great State of New York and I feel fortunate that I was born in America. I have never visited Africa but I am interested in doing so. You see... my history is not as clear as yours may be. It might not be "easy" for you to track your ancestry but it was very difficult for me to track mine. You were probably fortunate enough to have a last name that could be traced back as far as you are willing to work in order to do so; I had no such option. I had to patch much of my ancestry together over a number of years and with a lot of face to face research in unfamiliar places with uncooperative people at times.
What has happened to Africa is very unfortunate. Colonialism and Africans OWN mistakes have nearly destroyed what once was obviously a great continent. Persons of African descent have made many significant contributions to the world and particularly the United States. I feel bad that Africans cant seem to get themselves together and I have love in my heart for them all. I am an American first and foremost and have served MY country since 1995 (when I was 21) and I am proud of that fact. No matter what negative things have happened to Black Americans since we were first brought to this country... it is still MY country and I work to make it better instead of complaining about things. My first cousin (the closest thing I have to a brother) is currently a Marine E-5 and BOTH of my grandfathers served in WWII in segregated units and depsite all of the hardships that I am sure they were exposed to... I never heard either of them complain. I have heard that my grandfathers were not the only men in my family tree to have served OUR country either.
When I see men like Mugabe taking advantage of his situation it sickens me. He kicks the British out of the country to accomplish what? To take advantage of his own people and enrich himself. The man should be removed from power immediately and by force if necessary. In my opinion it s a shame that the other African Nations do not care enough to go in there and get his corrupt ass out of power. Most African Nationals are not "crazy" about Black Americans and the relationship between the two of us in this country is not good. I know that the majority of African Nationals could care less about Black America and many have a genuine hatred for us... nonetheless the problems that Africa endures is still something that will always be in the minds of many of us here in America.
As far as the sterilization comments, I dont believe that members of ANY race should be bringing children into this world if they cannot take care of them properly. While it doesn't "sound good" to hear that said, it is not a bad idea in light of the circumstances. That article is blunt but frank talk doesn't kill me, I'm a blunt person myself. Many African countries have longstanding problems that need to be addressed. It is a sad fact that with all the resources the Continent has things are not better there. Black Americans cant help but be bothered by the problems in "the Motherland"... even those of us who serve in the Armed Forces.

Respectfully

greenberetTFS
08-01-2008, 14:32
At least not in my life time.

You can read and study about Africa until you're BLUE in the face; 10 years from now, they'll be worst off unless...

Some "modern-age" country installs a dictator that's NOT corrupt.:lifter

Haiti is still a shit-hole and we put that bastard Aristide back in there; look where he's at now.:rolleyes:

Oh well...stay safe.

I agree with Guy totally....

Guy
08-02-2008, 02:11
All this just makes me realize how blessed a person is to be born into America. It's like winning the lottery of the human race. Every American is like a lottery winner in a sense.I FEEL YOU!:lifter

Bigblue:Allow me to explain. Black Americans/African Americans (or whatever the category is now a days) view Africa as the "Motherland" for historic and symbolic reasons.I've had the above "classification" bestowed upon me for 44+ years. Every time I've been to the "Motherland" Africa. Numerous things would occur which I didn't care for:

I got sick
Someone wanted me dead
Some thing wanted to eat me
It sucked
Tried to rip me off
Tried to help; SOBs were corrupt
Harrassed and called all sorts of names
Dysentery
Severe diarhhea
Hungry as hell
Humped a ruck until I almost passed out
Dehydration
Non-potable water
Bit by I don't know what type of insects
Etc., etc, etc....

More power too ya'll and Africa; have at it! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!:lifter

Stay safe.

JJ_BPK
08-02-2008, 07:57
I have to make a comment here, as I fear the gist is sliding precariously and I don't want to be the instigator of something that gets nasty..

I posted this article as a brain stimulator,, Not as an invitation to racial bias..

A person who is bold enough to write an article about Africa, could have just easily picked Mexico, India, China, or any of the dozens of smaller countries experiencing like conditions.

The World has a problem, we are creating more people than this Earth can sustain.

Africa is the visible tip of the spear. It is in the middle of a pervasive and progressive pandemic that can only get worse.

The UN, EU, and rest of the World are trying to treat the symptoms, while completely ignoring the basic cause.

If I am wrong about the follow-up posts, please forgive my anxiety..

This topic is not something I write about lightly..

Thanks

nmap
08-02-2008, 08:52
The World has a problem, we are creating more people than this Earth can sustain.

Sir, I'm glad that you have started the conversation. In addition, your concerns are both wise and well-founded.

I am a rather strong proponent of peak oil theory. Our modern agricultural system is both global and mechanized, with strong dependency on cheap and abundant liquid fuels. The Catton text I referred to earlier suggests that we are, in essence, transforming fossil fuels (crude oil and natural gas) into calories we can consume as food through the agricultural system. There are some indications that we may consume as many as 10 calories of oil for every one calorie of food we eat. The implication is that if the availability of liquid fuels declines - as I believe it will - then the global availability of food will do likewise. In addition, the tendency of newly affluent societies, such as China and India, to consume more meat and dairy products reduces the supply of grain available for the poorer segments of the global population. A key point is that we are in overshoot right now, and have been for decades. If Catton is correct, we are not approaching the problem; rather, we went past the point of no return half-a-century ago. That suggests the correction of overshoot will be profound.

Environmental overshoot is a fancy way of saying what you said. But the implication of overshoot is dieoff. Some believe - and I am among them - that a substantial percentage of the world's population will perish due to famine. Disease, war, and other factors may be the immediate cause of death, but the underlying problem will be too many people for the available resources.

The conversation has occurred in other places, and at other times. In the great majority of cases, some sort of triage strategy comes up. In essence, the discussion focuses on who should survive, and who should not. At this point, emotions tend to be engaged. We (whoever we is) want "our kind", or "the most worthy" (whatever those terms mean) to survive. Those people (this means anyone other than "our kind" or "the most worthy") are invariably less desirable. At that point, discussions tend to heat up. I have the greatest respect for the members of this forum, and so I believe that if the conversation can occur anywhere, it will be here.

In essence, there appear to be three possibilities.

Innovation is one. Global shared sacrifice and power-down is the second. Dieoff, planned or otherwise, is the third.

Innovation has worked since Malthus first observed the problem. Perhaps it will solve the problems. I'm betting it won't. Quite literally betting - I've purchased DBA, which is an ETF that goes up when grain prices increase.

Shared sacrifice, with we in the west adopting a diet largely devoid of meat and dairy products, along with other wrenching changes, is a strategy one sometimes comes across. I don't think human nature will permit such an approach to work, but there is a lot I don't know about human nature.

Dieoff is the third option. Unplanned dieoff, where no one does anything and the situation gets steadily worse in areas that cannot afford significantly higher food prices, seems most likely. This seems to increase the possibility of instability, both within affected areas and globally. The last possibility that I perceive is planned dieoff. By some mechanism, the population of those people (however defined) is pruned, or allowed to decline, for the benefit of the rest of us. That last possibility is the one that often generates rancor.

Dieoff may be rapid or slow, and there are proponents of each viewpoint. Slow dieoff is likely to be quite destructive as people do whatever it takes to survive. Some believe that the end result might be an environment that could support a global population in the hundreds of millions - total. A rapid dieoff would create (perhaps) less damage, but would be more wrenching in the short term.

When one factors in possibilities such as mass migrations of desperate refugees, nuclear blackmail, failed states, terrorism, and other factors, one might be excused for seeing interesting times.

As I mentioned earlier, I very much appreciate the original post. If such issues can be discussed anywhere, it is among the good people and QP's of this forum. And I respectfully suggest it is an important issue to consider, from both the personal and the policy perspectives.

GratefulCitizen
08-02-2008, 15:08
The Malthusian line of reasoning is a dangerous one.

The logical progression of this reasoning reduces humans to the level of livestock.

Eventually, the value of a life is a number representing an economic value.
Actuaries become arbiters of life and death.

The slide is already well underway:
http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/CalThomas/2008/07/31/the_price_is_not_right

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jul/08071705.html

Human life either has dignity apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, or it does not.

Choose carefully.
The lucky among us will one day be old and less useful to society.


Concerning Africa, I am of the opinion that "teach a man to fish" is the best policy.
Human life has diginity, part of that dignity is liberty and self-determination.

Help those willing to help themselves.
However, being an enabler to irresponsible decisions demeans the dignity of a rational, capable adult.

If people knowlingly choose a path for themselves which leads to death, little can be done to stop them.

nmap
08-02-2008, 16:16
You make a variety of good points, Grateful Citizen.

The first article you posted - the one by Cal Thomas - is interesting, but may well be too optimistic. It mentions the determination by several groups that human life has a value of millions of dollars.

The concepts of overshoot and dieoff, taken to their logical conclusion, implies one must see human numbers not in actuarial terms, but rather as competition for scarce resources. Human life, then, would not have a positive value; rather, each life would represent a negative. Thus, elimination of each life would become a positive. Please note that I do not say I desire or advocate such a position.

Nonetheless, I suspect we are on track toward precisely that state of affairs. Unless a great many leaders choose very wisely, we may well get there. There is historical precedent.

longrange1947
08-02-2008, 18:01
One point that was made was don't mess with Mother Nature. She has her own way of dealing with over population. She either causes famine, plague, pestilence or war. Any of which lowers the population back to what the land will support. If mother nature has her way, then 500,000 will die of famine and the land is back in balance. We, however, feed those 500,000 and make the land attempt now to support 5,000,000. We do nothing to teach the "land keepers" how to increase their yield, do not assist in conservation, only give until it hurts. Now mother nature has to do something about the not 500,000 but the 5,000,000.

Have we really "saved any" or have we condemned more to death?

Right now our policy of hands off give aways and allowing corrupt idiots to skim 75% off the top for trickle down crumbs is not getting done what needs to be done.

I do not have the answer, I only know that what we are doing is incorrect.

Guy - Something good had to come from your trip to the land of your forefathers. Besides the plane taking you home. :D

Sorry bro, couldn't resist.

Guy
08-03-2008, 00:04
Guy - Something good had to come from your trip to the land of your forefathers. Besides the plane taking you home. :D

Sorry bro, couldn't resist.The only good I got from Africa was working "side-by-side" with QPs. The rest sucked!:D

Stay safe.

Bigblue
08-04-2008, 11:13
I hear that Guy! I am not "mad" at you. I was just giving my little 2 cents. I usually try come to PS and LEARN more than comment. I just felt that subject was one that could use a different voice. I am in no rush to get sick or have any of the other unfortunate circumstances happen to me... but if I get to visit Africa (on the Army's Dime) or my own I will find something positive out of the experience. I guess it's all old stuff to you at this point, you have 10 years on me and obviously many more deployments. One day (even if it's under unpleasant circumstances) I hope to see "the motherland". Guess I should stop chasing women in Miami and the Caribbean huh? :cool:

I FEEL YOU!:lifter

Bigblue:I've had the above "classification" bestowed upon me for 44+ years. Every time I've been to the "Motherland" Africa. Numerous things would occur which I didn't care for:

I got sick
Someone wanted me dead
Some thing wanted to eat me
It sucked
Tried to rip me off
Tried to help; SOBs were corrupt
Harrassed and called all sorts of names
Dysentery
Severe diarhhea
Hungry as hell
Humped a ruck until I almost passed out
Dehydration
Non-potable water
Bit by I don't know what type of insects
Etc., etc, etc....

More power too ya'll and Africa; have at it! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!:lifter

Stay safe.

SF_BHT
08-04-2008, 12:04
I hear that Guy! I am not "mad" at you. I was just giving my little 2 cents. I usually try come to PS and LEARN more than comment. I just felt that subject was one that could use a different voice. I am in no rush to get sick or have any of the other unfortunate circumstances happen to me... but if I get to visit Africa (on the Army's Dime) or my own I will find something positive out of the experience. I guess it's all old stuff to you at this point, you have 10 years on me and obviously many more deployments. One day (even if it's under unpleasant circumstances) I hope to see "the motherland". Guess I should stop chasing women in Miami and the Caribbean huh? :cool:

BigBlue
Guy and I go way back and we both have spent a lot of time overseas and several trips to Africa.
Guy is right about all the points he made.

I do not understand why everyone wants to call their country that their Great Great Great Granddad the Motherland. I have roots from Germany, England, USA (Sioux) and Latin America. I am a Mutt just like all Americans are. By calling your self Irish-American, German-American, African-American, etc etc. We are American and if you want to use the term Motherland it is here in the Good Old USA no mater what color your skin is or where your ancestors came from. Until Americans stop dividing them selfs with this Hyphen we are never going to completely be a cohesive country it is very divisive. That is what I like about the military. When you put the uniform on your were and are still Green and you put the divisions aside for the mission and service. Yes there are Racial and ethnic problems but they are not allowed to effect the over operation of the military and its mission.

Back on subject: I personally have never been to any of the 53 countries I have had the pleasure of visiting and not found some good people and beautiful countryside. Go to all the African Capitals and just kill everyone. They are corrupt in All of them. Take me into the country side and I can find good hearted people that are disadvantaged and only want some food on the table and the table to put it onto. The problem is the ones that are trying to get things the easy way and the 2-5% that have money and do not want anyone to have any. Look at Mozambique.......

I too have been assaulted by the same units that we are training, property stolen, bitten and stung by everything I come in contact with. All I can say is I have been there, seen a lot of Bad and some good and I can honestly say I have no desire to go back. And this is from a guy who lives in a third world country and Loves it.

My humble Opinion is that Until the Africans decide to clean up their act in all aspects they will never go anywhere no matter how much world aid is provided.

cornelyj
08-04-2008, 12:29
BigBlue read these books and get back to me.

Peggy McIntosh, Unpacking the invisble knapsack

Troy Duster, Race and reification in science

Leith Mullings, Interrogating racism

Robert Williams, Documents of barbarism

Jane Hill, Language, race, and white public space

Karen Brodkin, Global capitalism: What's race got to do with it?

Laura Gomez, Off-white in an age of white supremacy

Martha Menchaca, Chicano Indianism

Mitzi Davis, et al., A fly in the buttermilk


They address the exact issues addressed in this thread and are an example of men and womens life work studying your "journey home"
... and yes I have studied Africa till I was almost blue in the face, and yes it was funny to watch Oprah's face as she was told she had no genetic ties to the tribe she donated over 4 Million towards....
Disclaimer- Some of these books you must put your own beliefs aside to see a certain argument or point of view. These books definitely opened my eyes and helped me understand your arguments and how you should better explain them and understand when people don't give a shit for a lack of better words. Do not take for granted the fact that you have the chance to read books or for that matter use the internet.

Guy
08-04-2008, 23:48
BigBlue read these books and get back to me.
You're a 22y/o in college student, never been in the military nor stepped foot on the continent of Africa.

Every bit of knowledge you are trying impart comes directly from a textbook, no real world experience, just words that you visually see and your mind conjures up thoughts on how it really is?

I didn’t read some textbook to tell me the country sucked! I got the full sensory stimulation by going and working on the continent of Africa!

So the next time you feel the need to give advice here; think first on who your audience is…

Stay safe.

lonepine
03-08-2009, 15:35
My dad was born and raised in Zambia, and his dad was born and raised in S. Africa before him, and I've only ever been in those two countries in Africa, so I can only talk about them as opposed to the rest of the continent.

The problem is not so much a lag between death and birth rates (although that certainly is a factor) so much as the growth in population has not led to a corresponding diversification of the economy. 19th Century England, for example, experienced a tremendous population explosion, but also witnessed the birth and growth of a whole range of new industries. In Zambia, the population exploded after Independence (1965), and, briefly, so, too, did the copper industry (and related industries), but once copper went to shit everyone just went back home and tried to farm. You can guess what happened.

The more important question is why didn't the economy develop? I'll admit for a while I succumbed to the temptation to believe that the West was responsible. After all, you drive through these places and the people seem so earnest that they can't possibly be at fault. No, the Western bankers who keep these countries in debt are to blame. And, to a point, that's true. If the nations were all relieved of their debt development would be easier, but it still wouldn't necessarily happen.

The problem, as a wonderfully Irish old nun working in an AIDS hospice in Zambia told me, is that Zambians (and, I imagine, many many Africans) are still stuck in the "Big Man" mentality. In the village, it was the chief, and he settled the disputes and things stayed more or less static. In the 20th century, it was the British, and they put the Zambians to work extracting natural resources. Now, the Big Man is the local despot, "president" or whoever greases enough palms to rule the country. The second example was unsustainable because people don't like being ruled by foreigners. The third example is unsustainable because, like in the village, nothing is growing except for the population. And that spells disaster.

Of course no one questions the "Big Man" because the tradition of the past thousand years has been to accept what the big man says. Call it a cultural phenomenon, mass delusion, or just stupidity, but until Africans learn to change their own mindset, they are completely f*cked.