"Precision Sniper Rifle" SOCOM Solicitation

[Snaquebite]

??? I wonder who came up with that term?

Solicitation Number:
H92222-09-PSR Notice Type:
Sources Sought

Synopsis:
Added: Jun 17, 2008 3:01 pm

Precision Sniper Rifle (PSR)

Issue date – 17 June 2008 Closing date – 13 August 2008

MARKET SURVEY – SOURCES SOUGHT SYNOPSIS: The Government is issuing this sources-sought announcement as part of a market research effort to support a requirement for a Precision Sniper Rifle (PSR). All interested sources are encouraged to submit company and product literature, references, and other pertinent information for the Government’s consideration. The Government is interested in analyzing and testing sniper weapon systems to possibly replace the currently fielded Bolt Action SOF Sniper Systems (MK 13, M40, M24).

More....https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=3ccd2299344355c0c55149b2637158d1&tab=core&_cview=0

[CDRODA396]

Uhhhh, with the SCAR being the panacea of long guns, isnt the SCAR Heavy Long Barrel supposed to fill this requirement?:D

[Psywar1-0]

Its just market research, allowing anyone with a "Good idea" to present it. It also probably checks someones block on that new convoluted personel system that requires you to have quantifiable goals that you and your rater set up at the beginning of the rating period.

This MS/SS is something that someone can point to as "Proof" that they are doing their job.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

??? I wonder who came up with that term?

The same idiot that came up with dangerous explosive.

[Snaquebite]

The same idiot that came up with dangerous explosive.


LMAO....:cool:

[Philkilla]

The same idiot that came up with dangerous explosive.

So you are saying fire is hot? :D

[The Reaper]

Uhhhh, with the SCAR being the panacea of long guns, isnt the SCAR Heavy Long Barrel supposed to fill this requirement?:D

Negative, the SASS was.

TR

[Psywar1-0]

So you are saying fire is hot? :D

Yea right, next your going to tell me water is wet and your cant breath it :rolleyes:


:D

[longrange1947]

The PSR is a requirement for a sniper rifle that will accurately engage targets to 2000 meters (dream) 1400 to 1600 (more realistic). This is part of the original program for a .338 Lapua or similar bolt weapon system. The weapon is to actually be able to reach our and touch someone at ranges beyond the 300 Win Mag. This is with a weapon that can actually be carried into combat and not a Ma Duece wannabe that needs to be broken down.

I have been working on this, essentially since the mid 80s. Oh yes, the army moves in a very fast manner. They come up with more crap to slow down the process then I have ever seen. The latest ORD is about 6 to 7 years old, yes years old. The Navy keeps changing it and Crane keeps screwing it, and they hold meeting after meeting over it. Nothing much happens but more after action and trip reports.

The Navy and the Air Force can procure billion dollar systems and the Army sits on its arse trying to procure a system that is barely in the million dollar range if everyone got a system.

Sorry guys, a very raw spot for me. We came the closest two years ago and Crane and others screwed it up with more meetings and no real outcome other than give them another 300 Win Mag and we may update it so Crane gets more business and money. The weapon is crap, shoots at 1.5 moa and the scope sucks. Not a good way to do business.

End of rant for now. :mad:

[NousDefionsDoc]

??? I wonder who came up with that term?
...

The Department of Redundancy Department

[Razor]

The PSR is a requirement for a sniper rifle that will accurately engage targets to 2000 meters (dream) 1400 to 1600 (more realistic).

We had 4 of these per platoon back in the 1990s, with high power optical and thermal sights, variable effects ammo, 200 rounds per minute ROF and a 300 round magazine. :p

[CDRODA396]

We had 4 of these per platoon back in the 1990s, with high power optical and thermal sights, variable effects ammo, 200 rounds per minute ROF and a 300 round magazine. :p

Bradley?:D

[longrange1947]

We had 4 of these per platoon back in the 1990s, with high power optical and thermal sights, variable effects ammo, 200 rounds per minute ROF and a 300 round magazine. :p

Yes but were they single man portable? :munchin :p

[Razor]

Yup...usually by an 11B PFC, up to 35mph. :lifter

[longrange1947]

OK Rick, say over and over again, " I will not take a mouth full of coffee while reading PS.com, I will not take a mouth full of coffee while reading PS.com."

Thanks Razor, I needed that spray of coffee. :D

[longrange1947]

As a quick side note, the SASS is turning into the biggest white elephant I have ever seen in SWSs. It is actually a step backwards! :mad:

[The Reaper]

As a quick side note, the SASS is turning into the biggest white elephant I have ever seen in SWSs. It is actually a step backwards! :mad:

I am shocked to hear that.

Shocked, I tell you!

TR

[longrange1947]

Yeah, I can tell. :D

[Tacticalinterve]

I heard rumor this may get pulled and respecd as a 300WM

[longrange1947]

I heard rumor this may get pulled and respecd as a 300WM

Which, the 338 or the SASS? The 300 Win mag is an interim fix for the dragging of feet on the 338.

The SASS is a joke now, making it a 300 would place the cherry on the top of the joke.

The 300 has its own problems, one of which is being belted. :munchin

[Tacticalinterve]

LR heard the 338 is getting pulled back to respec to 300WM but you know how rumors are.

I have a MK13 and mine is one hole gun. Now of course I also got the only original M107 Break Down Bolt Action that would shoot into a group smaller than a football field. All the others would barely make it straight out of the bbl

[Justinmd]

The word we got from the POC in that posting was that they are going to revise the posting and remove any caliber restrictions/requirements. Also they won't even start the testing process until the end of the year, if at all.

J

[bailaviborita]

Rick- I worked with you 2 years ago on this, are you saying we were making some progress? :)

I think the name "Mark 18" will work...

Seriously, though- why don't we just do what the CF folks are doing and go to just a 7.62 SASS for all our needs? Is there really a need for a bolt action? ;)

I envision "soon" we will have: .50 cal, PSR, SASS, Mk 12, SCAR Sniper System 5.56, SCAR SNiper System 7.62, SCAR LOng Barrel 5.56, and SCAR Long Barrel 7.62- some of each sprinkled non-uniformly throughout all the Groups.

[longrange1947]

You're killing me!! You're killing me!! :D

The programs are a wee bit screwed up. The general consensus of the snipers that i have talked with is the army is now screwed and the M110 is not even a good battle rifle as we had one cease to work after only 60 rounds. None will hold less than 1.5 moa and most are worse by a long shot.

The new Mk13s coming from wonderland, also known as Crane, are lucky to hold 1.5 moa and they say that is what the army asked for.

SCARs are a joke and fielding is up in the air. The sniper version is ....?

If I could I would shoot all involved in the project of jamming s**t down the guys throats.

bailaviborita - Believe it or not it is actually worse then it was a couple of years ago. :(

[bailaviborita]

SCARs are a joke and fielding is up in the air. The sniper version is ....?

Believe it or not it is actually worse then it was a couple of years ago. :(

I had heard that wrt the scar. Last I heard there were four types in each of 5.56 and 7.62: CQB, standard, long barrel, and sniper system. The long barrel was going to be the sniper system- an interchangeable longer barrel and heavier stock that you could just snap on to the standard Scar and viola- instant sniper system. Of course no-one liked that idea outside of the manufacturer, crane, and socom- so they agreed to develop a separate program for replacing the Mark 11 and 12 based loosely on the SCAR standard. THey started calling the "longer barrel version" a "Designated Marksman rifle", as opposed to a sniper rifle. Amazed me at how ad-hoc it seemed they made decisions- by committee, no prep, and on-the-fly. And you wonder how we get programs that we do. The Marines were the lead- but I didn't see any "lead" except when we went to Quantico- and even then it was a mess- allowing guys from outside to interject whenever they wanted, etc.

As for it being worse now- not hard to believe either. The way we (SF and USASOC) select program guys is insane. The Navy guys have a retired operator who is paid a lot, knows his stuff, and knows the system. He is a tireless advocate for what the SEALs want and is in tight with Crane. We rotate every 1-2 years through SF NCO's on their way out, retired civilians managing other programs, and Acquisition folks who have never fired a weapon outside Basic. USASOC gets what they pay for...

[dr. mabuse]

Please explain why a SASS shoots so poorly. I have seen plenty of civilian semi-auto rifles shoot better than 1.5 MOA. My off-the-shelf DPMS does better than that when I do my part. :confused:

[longrange1947]

Please explain why a SASS shoots so poorly. I have seen plenty of civilian semi-auto rifles shoot better than 1.5 MOA. My off-the-shelf DPMS does better than that when I do my part. :confused:

My guess would be that the workmanship sucks. That the problems that the original SR series had and never got rid of are still there as it is an inherent problem with the system. :munchin

Idiots and bean counters decided to replace the M24s with the SASSs and now the Army will pay the price for this folly. They allowed a manufacturers to convince them that the weapon was accurate to 1000 meters while the M24 was only accurate to 800 meters. This was one of the driving forces to replace rather than augment. I would like to see the idiots fired for this debacle but I doubt that will happen they will probably get promoted while our guys wind up with a weapon system that will not even make a good battle rifle. The idiots will blame lower echelon personnel and get them fired. :mad:

Glad I kept all of the email on this one. :munchin

bailaviborita - The sniper version of the SCAR has been on hold for awhile and there are still problems with the other versions. Hopefully it will be tested under actual conditions instead of conditions designed to get it to pass. Time will tell.

[Smokin Joe]

LR,

I commend you for you dedication and patience.

[longrange1947]

Smokin Joe - Thank you, just trying to carry on what others have worked so hard to make happen right, instead of letting it go by the wayside. :o

[Tacticalinterve]

No Rick, dont be modest. You have done more for snipers of either Military or LE than most have any idea. I like many others have learned a ton from you over the many years I have known you

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Amazed me at how ad-hoc it seemed they made decisions- by committee, no prep, and on-the-fly. And you wonder how we get programs that we do. The Marines were the lead- but I didn't see any "lead" except when we went to Quantico- and even then it was a mess- allowing guys from outside to interject whenever they wanted, etc.

I have done a little work in this arena and the problem was usually that no one could ever define the requirement(s). Everyone was a SME and all had baggage from previous assignments. You will never develop a sniper rifle to meet all environments and all missions and until those in position to make the decisions accept that, you are going to get a system that attempts to fit all scenarios somewhat and none of them completely. I had different long rifles for different missions, different calibers for different targets, different signatures for different situations, etc. The decision as to what system we got was made by the shooters and the teams to which I gave the target requirements for interdiction. But then I was only outfitting one unit and did not have all the adult supervision that many now seem unable to get out from under.

[bailaviborita]

I have done a little work in this arena and the problem was usually that no one could ever define the requirement(s). Everyone was a SME and all had baggage from previous assignments. You will never develop a sniper rifle to meet all environments and all missions and until those in position to make the decisions accept that, you are going to get a system that attempts to fit all scenarios somewhat and none of them completely. I had different long rifles for different missions, different calibers for different targets, different signatures for different situations, etc. The decision as to what system we got was made by the shooters and the teams to which I gave the target requirements for interdiction. But then I was only outfitting one unit and did not have all the adult supervision that many now seem unable to get out from under.

Totally agree with you. And as usual- many different users does not an easy requirement definition make. But- I think we could go a long way if we did two things: 1) recruited for positions within USASOC to run our weapons programs- retired SOF with shooting creds for longevity, acquisition folks who know their job, are sharp, and like guns, and SF guys who aren't just homesteading; and 2- incorporate SOTIC and SFARTAETC into the procurement system. We have an in-house group of experts who aren't even underutilized- I don't think they are utilized at all (by the acquisition folks). Just my .02...

[longrange1947]

Totally agree with you. And as usual- many different users does not an easy requirement definition make. But- I think we could go a long way if we did two things: 1) recruited for positions within USASOC to run our weapons programs- retired SOF with shooting creds for longevity, acquisition folks who know their job, are sharp, and like guns, and SF guys who aren't just homesteading; and 2- incorporate SOTIC and SFARTAETC into the procurement system. We have an in-house group of experts who aren't even underutilized- I don't think they are utilized at all (by the acquisition folks). Just my .02...

I agree as well and some of those are changing. For one thing both SOTIC and SFARTAETC are being brought into the picture sooner and more frequently.

[dr. mabuse]

Thanks LR. Still hard to accept that there are people playing games while lives are affected by their decisions. Don't know how y'all do it. Civilian life is bad enough with oxygen thieves like these.

Maybe a nice unguided tour down into the Grand Canyon at night would be beneficial for them. Or better yet, send them into the sandbox for a year to beta test the crap they spec'd.:D