PDA

View Full Version : LeMas High Speed Photos


The Reaper
05-16-2004, 18:24
Gents:

Last week at Blackwater, LeMas was there for a demo and a crew was there with a 100,000 frame per second high-speed camera.

Here is what the hits looked like on meat, as you may have seen before.

Thanks much to Dan for putting the clip together.

TR

Roguish Lawyer
05-18-2004, 18:52
Awesome!

Thanks.

The Reaper
05-18-2004, 19:01
The military/LE version works well on hard armor as well, yet a .300 WinMag stops in 4 sheets of regular gypsum drywall.

Check this out!

Frontside of the armor.

TR

The Reaper
05-18-2004, 19:02
Backside of the armor.

TR

shadowflyer
05-18-2004, 20:47
I would say that our men and women down-range are in need of this type of ammo.

This ammo needs to be in the hands of our troopers, that is for sure. Stan and his crew do good work.

Am blown away (no pun intended) by the destructive capability of this round.

JJ

Air.177
05-19-2004, 08:48
If this is off base, then by all means ignore it, but what does this ammo do against cinderblocks and dried mud bricks or other building materials likely to be encountered "down Range"?

APLP
05-19-2004, 15:10
Originally posted by Air.177
If this is off base, then by all means ignore it, but what does this ammo do against cinderblocks and dried mud bricks or other building materials likely to be encountered "down Range"?

The question you ask is very relevant. I have already arranged for ammunition to be tested by SME personnel in support of those specific testing protocols. I will make sure that the testing information is passed from the folks who complete those tests.

Ambush Master
05-19-2004, 15:20
From what I've read about this stuff, it is Temperature and Density or moisture in target sensitive. What happens when it hits a 98 Degree Soaking wet vest/jacket ??

APLP
05-19-2004, 16:37
Originally posted by Ambush Master
From what I've read about this stuff, it is Temperature and Density or moisture in target sensitive. What happens when it hits a 98 Degree Soaking wet vest/jacket ??

If you can give a specific description, or construction of the material I would be happy to go shoot the material and post the pictures. What would you like to see behind the vest to show bullet deployment or penetration?

Air.177
05-19-2004, 16:38
DAMN!!!
Now that's what I call Technical Support!

Roguish Lawyer
05-19-2004, 16:41
Originally posted by Air.177
DAMN!!!
Now that's what I call Technical Support!

Behold the power of ps.com!

Air.177
05-25-2004, 13:57
Out of curiosity, how does this type of projectile react when it impacts bone?

37F5V
05-26-2004, 07:01
I'm astonished every time I see clips of those rounds in action. However, my comfort level drops a bit thinking about Mother Army getting it's hands on that stuff. There had better be some serious training to go along with the issue of that ammunition. Twice a year on the standard range just won't cut it (as if it does now).

I say leave that stuff to the Operator types.

John

APLP
05-26-2004, 07:29
Originally posted by Air.177
Out of curiosity, how does this type of projectile react when it impacts bone?

A head shot into a hog with the .45acp CQB round will pretty
much take apart and fracture over 1/2 of the skull, upper impact side jaw bone and usually blow out both eye balls, which is unusual because even most rifle rounds do not create near the bone destruction and usually only pop one eyeball at best.

The .308 rounds will completely cut a hogs femur bone in half if even if the trajectory was far enough away that the bullet fragments did not touch the bone.

Rifle rounds which impact large bones directly just pulverize into large chunks like a jig saw puzzle that could not be put back together. Smaller bone structures like ribs are not recoverable when impacted with the 5.56 APLP rounds.

The resulting dimensions of lateral and linear fragmentation patterns from thoracic cavity penetrations shown on x-ray are not due to what some have theorized as snowstorm effect.

Air.177
05-26-2004, 09:20
Thank You

APLP
05-26-2004, 12:58
Originally posted by PSYRGR
I'm astonished every time I see clips of those rounds in action. However, my comfort level drops a bit thinking about Mother Army getting it's hands on that stuff. There had better be some serious training to go along with the issue of that ammunition. Twice a year on the standard range just won't cut it (as if it does now).

I say leave that stuff to the Operator types.

John

To be honest, I am not sure that anyone will even get the chance to use the ammunition here in the States. We have rolled from impossilbe smoke and mirrors with stated personal and professional reputations attachted to that effect, to the current rumor mill that the JAG will rule the ammunition non compliant for any potential application due to greater fragmentation and resulting increased lethality. The too lethal aspects of any potential JAG ruling on these bullet designs to my knowledge is rumor mill only. But the fact that the rumor mill participants would accept such rationale as a legitamate reason for prohibiting the use of this new bullet technology for any of our military personnel is beyond my ability to comphrehend such logic.

Roguish Lawyer
05-26-2004, 13:03
Originally posted by APLP
To be honest, I am not sure that anyone will even get the chance to use the ammunition here in the States. We have rolled from impossilbe smoke and mirrors with stated personal and professional reputations attachted to that effect, to the current rumor mill that the JAG will rule the ammunition non compliant for any potential application due to greater fragmentation and resulting increased lethality. The too lethal aspects of any potential JAG ruling on these bullet designs to my knowledge is rumor mill only. But the fact that the rumor mill participants would accept such rationale as a legitamate reason for prohibiting the use of this new bullet technology for any of our military personnel is beyond my ability to comphrehend such logic.

Interesting issue.

AL:

Want to fill us in on what authorities JAG will be considering in their analysis? This is not my area.

The Reaper
05-26-2004, 17:18
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Interesting issue.

AL:

Want to fill us in on what authorities JAG will be considering in their analysis? This is not my area.


Not AL, or even a regular lawyer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn recently.

IMHO, an impartial analysis (which I doubt it will receive, since the proponent has already rendered a personal negative opinion anbout the ammo), for general military use would be done by the JAG proponent for that specialty and he would consider the applicable Laws of Land Warfare and any Treaties we observe.

Use against non-protected combatants would be at the call of the NCA.

There were a lot of earlier comments that the round was illegal because of the Ballistic Tip (which I believe has been removed) and that the round did not work anyway. Interesting to see that the naysayers have moved from the "it doesn't work" camp, to the "it is TOO lethal" position.

I do not think the issue is excessive lethality as much as it is the cosmetics of such a catastrophic wound from an issued small arm. Dead is dead, after all, and from my perspective, if lethal force was required, the sooner the Bad Guys die, the better. Less suffering for them as well. If lethality was the issue, we would be fighting these campaigns with BB guns and Nerf bats. The objection would likely be the horrific nature of the wounds which would make quite a visual for the media to show. The round is not DESIGNED to cause undue suffering any more than an RPG is. It just works that way, the same way a fast moving 5.56 does.

The severe wounds (and fratricide) will probably be more significant in the decision than the Laws of Land Warfare.

That is a shame, because in the time of useful consciousness the BG has when hit by the current small arms ammo, he can kill or wound a LOT of our soldiers and Marines.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR