View Full Version : Two SF questions
Retired W4
04-17-2008, 15:26
After researching two subjects close to me, I now must roll the dice and post the questions here. I suspect the reason I haven't found my answers yet is because the info may still be classified. If that is the case feel free to slap the crap out of me and close the thread. I will understand.
1. I am looking for information of SF involvement in activities leading up to the "Cambodian Campaign" very early in 1970. John Shaw's book devotes one sentence to SF.
2. One of those "crazy uncles" on my wife's side tells of initial airborne training in Germany (not Ft. Benning) in 1960/1961 prior to being sent to Laos with SF. Could this be true?
Ok, let the evisceration begin. :D
Thank you for your service Mr. W4. You were probably doing a high hover in UH-1B's when we were in kindergarden. These are reasonable questions, and I'll let some of the Nam veterans answer question one.
As to question two, I can state with authority that the Basic Airborne Course (BAC) has been taught under authority of the USA Infantry School by SF units on a case by case basis, outside of Ft. Benning, GA but under their Program of Instruction (POI). That POI included a "mobilization" training schedule that reduced the course to ten calendar days (typically two weeks, allowing for a weekend). "Tower Week" was eliminated, primarily due to the absence of 250' towers outside of Ft. Benning.
In the late 1950's and until the 101st Airborne Division deployed to Viet Nam in the mid 1960's, the 101st Airborne Division ran a "jump school" at Ft. Campbell, KY.
At recently as 1978~1979 the 10th SF Group (then at Ft. Devens, MA) ran a "jump school" at Fort Devens to get soldiers from their counterpart Reserve SF Group (the 11th SF Group, USAR) jump qualified during a single two week Army Reserve "summer camp." I was in the 11th SF at the time, and some of my troops went through the course.
So "I went to jump training at Bad Toelz, Germany in the 1960's" does not ping my "bullshit" meter at all.
So "I went to jump training at Bad Toelz, Germany in the 1960's" does not ping my "bullshit" meter at all.Here's a little historical perspective. It could be true.
http://www.usarmygermany.com/Units/HqUSAREUR/USAREUR_10th%20SF%20Gp%20ABN.htm#ODA7
Retired W4
04-18-2008, 09:50
Thank you to both CSB and lksteve for the input, and for your service to our country. I appreciate your insights.
As to the Cambodia question, I spent a couple weeks flying personnel from the SF pad in Bien Hoa to various villages across the fence, all while President Nixon, who was being hounded by the press, continued to deny the presence of US combat troops in Cambodia. The lack of information of this phase of the operation baffles me today.
Yes, the 10th sent some of their people to Schongau for jump school in the 50s and early 60s.
I went to jump school in Ft Bragg 1962.
The 8th Infantry Division (509th ABN) ran a Basic Parachute Course at Wiesbaden, Germany for a couple of decades, too.
mark46th
04-19-2008, 21:57
W-4, What did your "Crazy Uncle" do in the army? His MOS? The 1960-61 time frame coincides with "White Star", the beginning of SF work in Laos. Bull Simons was the first commander, from 1961-62. If he wasn't SF, he may have had some specialty that a non-SF type could cover...
One of those "crazy uncles" on my wife's side tells of initial airborne training in Germany (not Ft. Benning) in 1960/1961 prior to being sent to Laos with SF. Could this be true?
The 11th ABN was stationed in the Munich/Augsburg area during that time and they had their own jump school--just like the 82nd and 101st. An interesting piece of trivia was the CCF for the 11th ABN and units around Munich was the main prison/administration building at Dachau which houses the museum display.
Richard :munchin
The 11th ABN was stationed in the Munich/Augsburg area during that time and they had their own jump school--just like the 82nd and 101st. An interesting piece of trivia was the CCF for the 11th ABN and units around Munich was the main prison/administration building at Dachau which houses the museum display.
Richard :munchin
The 11th ABN was Deactivated in 1957. 1st Bd Abn, 8th Infantry Div was in Augsburg in the 60s.
The 11th ABN was Deactivated in 1957. 1st Bd Abn, 8th Infantry Div was in Augsburg in the 60s.
Actually 1958, I think, but they left an ABN BDE Battle Group. It may have then become part of the 8th ID vic Mainz, but I think it was a part of the 24th ID in Augsburg first. Wasn't that the world of the pentamic Army structure at that time and weren't there were several ABN Battle Groups in Europe? Some of the guys like Ed Flint and Ernie Tabata (who's still at Bragg I think) out there could fill us in on those--they were both in the 11th and Ernie was in the 8th IDs ABN BG. Ed also spent some time in the CCF at Dachau.
Richard
skydoc60A5G
04-20-2008, 14:13
I was a 60W on the Detox Unit at the 56th Gen Hosp in Bad Kreuznach from '73-'74 when the 8th ID 1/509th Abn Inf Bn at Mainz moved to Vicenza with SETAF. Not sure where they had their jump training...don't thnk I thought to ask at the time...Just assumed it must have been the Ft. Benning School for Boys....Met my first ABN qualified Doc when he was transfered to the hospital as a GMO..He had been one of their Battalion surgeons...
1958 - 1973
(Source: Annual Historical Report, 1958-59, HQ USAREUR)
The Restationing of the Airborne Battle Groups
On 1 July 1958, the 11th Airborne Division was redesignated as the 24th Infantry Division. The division remained responsible for providing the airborne elements of Army Task Force 201, consisting of two airborne battle groups, a composite artillery battalion, and a quartermaster parachute company. To enable the 24th Division to comply with this requirement, it was organized as a composite division with a strength of 14,311, whereas the standard infantry division was composed of 13,580 personnel.
At the time of the Lebanon operation, when part of ATF 201 was deployed to the Middle East and the 24th Division was reduced by over 2,200 personnel, plans were prepared to shift the burden of supporting the task force to the 8th Infantry Division, which was earmarked as the reserve division. The potential reduction in the combat capability of the reserve was considered as the lesser of two evils. But the entire problem would be eliminated if the Department of the Army approved General Hodes' recommendation to transfer the primary Army responsibility for supporting contingency plans in the Middle East to the Strategic Army Corps in the United States. However, the Department of the Army not only refused to relieve USAREUR of its Middle East support mission, but also indicated that the planned gyroscope of the 504th and 505th Airborne Battle Groups could not be canceled.
As a result, the 8th Infantry Division was reorganized as a composite division on 1 December 1958, so that it could assume the airborne support responsibility hitherto held by the 24th Infantry Division. On 21 December 1958, the 504th Airborne Battle Group of the 8th Division replaced the 503rd Abn BG of the 24th Division as Force BRAVO and one month later the 505th Abn BG of the 8th Division relieved the 187th Abn BG of the 24th Division as Force ALPHA. On 5 February 1959, the 24th Infantry Division was reorganized as a standard infantry division.
greenberetTFS
04-21-2008, 09:44
I was stationed at Sheridan kascern in Augsburg with the 505 Abn Battle Group when the 11th was deactived in 1958....Airborne personal wore the tab above the new division patch. I left 3 months later so I'm not sure what they did about the remaining airborne qualifed guys......
Retired W4
04-21-2008, 14:04
W-4, What did your "Crazy Uncle" do in the army? His MOS? The 1960-61 time frame coincides with "White Star", the beginning of SF work in Laos. Bull Simons was the first commander, from 1961-62. If he wasn't SF, he may have had some specialty that a non-SF type could cover...
Mark, from the limited discussions I had with him he apparently went to Gemany as a straight leg. He then volunteered to go through airborne training and other things in preparation for Laos. He claims to be SF, but so far I don't know his MOS. Unfortunately, with his age and the plethora of drugs they have him on, keeping him on track in our conversations is difficult. Some on my wife's side think he is a BS artist, but NONE of them have one bit of military background.
The next time I'm in Michagan I plan on sitting down with him to gather as much information on his background as I can, mostly for his children.
Is this forum great, or what? Thanks for the info.
There were two Jump School and Jumpmaster classes that I know of that were held by the 10th Grp while I was assigned there. I left in 1958 so I can't honestly say if the courses continued into the 60's or not.
There were two Jump School and Jumpmaster classes that I know of that were held by the 10th Grp while I was assigned there. I left in 1958 so I can't honestly say if the courses continued into the 60's or not.
Yes, graduate of 1/10 jumpmaster school in Nov 1984 at Tolz. The team running the school had Mark O'Neil as TL and CWO Mims. IIRC, Mims was one of the first SF WOs.
Yes, graduate of 1/10 jumpmaster school in Nov 1984 at Tolz. The team running the school had Mark O'Neil as TL and CWO Mims. IIRC, Mims was one of the first SF WOs.The chief had to be...when I left Toelz in December of 1983, there were none there...I don't know if there were any in the pipeline, either...and Mark was probably one of the last LT detachment XOs...
Paste Eater
04-21-2008, 20:40
After researching two subjects close to me, I now must roll the dice and post the questions here. I suspect the reason I haven't found my answers yet is because the info may still be classified. If that is the case feel free to slap the crap out of me and close the thread. I will understand.
1. I am looking for information of SF involvement in activities leading up to the "Cambodian Campaign" very early in 1970. John Shaw's book devotes one sentence to SF.
2. One of those "crazy uncles" on my wife's side tells of initial airborne training in Germany (not Ft. Benning) in 1960/1961 prior to being sent to Laos with SF. Could this be true?
Ok, let the evisceration begin. :D
My Grandfather went to jump school in BT, Germany in 1955/56ish. 10th Grp
scmarines9303
04-22-2008, 14:57
Are soldiers not SF qualified allowed in your units? In other words do they allow soldiers who are too old now to qual for SF to be part of the units in other capacities?
For example, I shoot expert, have an admn, signal, infantry and MP mos! But I am also 39 years old but look nowhere close to that age. Just want to do my part!!
JumpinJoe1010
04-22-2008, 15:01
Are soldiers not SF qualified allowed in your units? In other words do they allow soldiers who are too old now to qual for SF to be part of the units in other capacities?
For example, I shoot expert, have an admn, signal, infantry and MP mos! But I am also 39 years old but look nowhere close to that age. Just want to do my part!!
:munchin
Are soldiers not SF qualified allowed in your units? In other words do they allow soldiers who are too old now to qual for SF to be part of the units in other capacities?
For example, I shoot expert, have an admn, signal, infantry and MP mos! But I am also 39 years old but look nowhere close to that age. Just want to do my part!!
TS/TR/Razor Tag your it.:munchin
I think you'd be hard pressed to find any battalion-sized unit the the US military that doesn't have at least two different MOSs assigned to it (think support requirements). Try a search on 'support mos' and see what happens.
mark46th
04-26-2008, 23:01
W4- You might want to read Don Valentine's writings on White Star. He was one of the early ones in White Star and may have known your uncle, if he really was there. His website is donvalentine.com. If you have time, read his writings about his army career. Pretty funny guy...
skydoc60A5G
04-27-2008, 09:31
http://www.don-valentine.com/Don-index.htm
mark46th
04-27-2008, 16:33
Thanks, Sky Doc...
skydoc60A5G
04-27-2008, 21:08
ORGANZIATION (June 1960):
8th Div Abn School Wiesbaden AB
In anticipation of the arrival of the 504th and 505th Abn Infs, the Airborne School was assigned to the 8th Division in the later part of 1958. At that time the cadre consisted of personnel who originally taught at the now deactivated 11th Abn Div Jump School. As the instructors from the 11th Abn began rotating, they were replaced by personnel from the 504th and 505th, many of whom had taught at the 82d, 101st, or Fort Benning Jump Schools. With this blending of experience, the 8th Inf Div Airborne School has one of the finest staffs of airborne instructors in the world.
The majority of the 1400 students who have been graduated from the school since its inception have attended only one of the seven courses taught at the school.
Airborne units assigned to the 8th Infantry Division in the PENTOMIC configuration (1958-1963):
UNIT DESIGNATION
STATION COMMENTS
1st ABN BG, 504th Inf Lee Bks, Mainz [1] [3]
1st ABN BG, 505th Inf Lee Bks, Mainz [2]
[1] The unit was redesignated as the 1st Airborne Battle Group, 504th Infantry on 1 September 1957. On 12 December 1958, the 1/504 became part of the 8th Infantry Division and was based at Lee Barracks, in Mainz-Gonsenheim, Germany. On 1 April 1963, the battalion was relieved from assignment to the 8th Inf Div and assigned to the 82nd ABN Div.
[2] Co A, 505th Abn Inf was reorganized and redesignated as the 1st Airborne Battle Group, 505th Infantry on 1 September 1957. On 15 January 1959, the 1/505 became a part of the 8th Infantry Division and was based at Lee Barracks, in Mainz-Gonsenheim, Germany. On 1 April 1963, the battalion was relieved from assignment to the 8th Inf Div and assigned to the 82nd ABN Div.
[3] It appears that some or all airborne units moved to Rhein Kaserne in Biebrich (Wiesbaden) at some point, maybe during the Berlin Crisis, 1961.
Airborne units assigned to the 8th Infantry Division in the ROAD configuration (1963-1973):
UNIT DESIGNATION
STATION COMMENTS
HHC, 1st ABN/Mech Brigade Lee Bks, Mainz
1st ABN/Mech Bn, 509th Inf Lee Bks, Mainz [1]
2nd ABN/Mech Bn, 509th Inf Lee Bks, Mainz [2]
[1] On 27 March 1963, Co A, 509th Parachute Infantry Battalion was redesignated as HHC, 1st Bn, 509th Inf and assigned to the 8th Inf Div (organic elements concurrently constituted). The Battalion was activated on 1 April 1963 in Germany.
[2] On 27 March 1963, Co B, 509th Parachute Infantry Battalion was redesignated as HHC, 2nd Bn, 509th Inf and assigned to the 8th Inf Div (organic elements concurrently constituted). The Battalion was activated on 1 April 1963 in Germany.
In 1973, the existing 1st and 2nd Battalions of the 509th Infantry were replaced by two mechanized infantry battalions (2d Bn, 28th Inf and 2d Bn, 87th Inf) which brought the 8th Infantry Division to fully mechanized status and provided it with the enhanced cability to defend Central Europe, its primary task. To provide greater mobility to the Mediterranean area, the 1st Battalion of the 509th Infantry (ABCT) was assigned to Vicenza, Italy.
[QUOTE=Retired W4;206831]After researching two subjects close to me, I now must roll the dice and post the questions here. I suspect the reason I haven't found my answers yet is because the info may still be classified. If that is the case feel free to slap the crap out of me and close the thread. I will understand.
1. I am looking for information of SF involvement in activities leading up to the "Cambodian Campaign" very early in 1970. John Shaw's book devotes one sentence to SF.
2. With all respects sir, i have some info that could hanser your question on Lao secret wars 1961, and the Hmong sbgect, I have some photos that testify, yes in Oct. 61. 7th sf army personel where sent to Lao in operation White Star. the colection of material is so valuable on this subject. I'd love to sher some fo this knoledge with you fellers.