Weapons training advice [Archive] - Professional Soldiers ®

Team Sergeant

03-16-2008, 11:09

Ever wonder why we have millions of golfers (hackers) and only a handful of individuals playing the game on a professional level? Many will tell you they can play golf but only at a very basic level.
Same goes for professional runners, bowlers, tennis players etc. What separates the pro's from the amateurs, it begins their training and then continues with their commitment to their sport.

When I train individuals I always ask at what level does that person believe he or she is currently at in their weapons training the answers very from a beginner to intermediate and I've had some that will answer "I'm a weapons instructor" I then usually ask them to shake my hand and attempt to crush my hand at the same time. This action identifies their strength level in their wrist and forearm.

A weak grip tells me the individual is not an advanced shooter and will have a long road ahead to become a great shooter. Conversely a strong grip tells me that they have the necessary physical strength to become an advanced shooter and if they have been shooting a long time there might be some quarks to watch for such as a "controlled jerk".

Most golfers are hacks and play just to relax. They might have taken a few lessons and then feel they know enough to play. And most just learn the game from their buddies and don’t bother taking any lessons. Again, they don’t mind as I mentioned they are there to relax and enjoy the atmosphere. The same goes for the weekend shooting enthusiasts, they also have taken a few lessons, maybe none and off they go to the range, and like the golfers they go to relax, shoot and enjoy the company of like minded individuals.

Some are game shooters, some are cowboy six shooters, some serious target shooters, clay birds, paper targets, there are the metallic silhouette shooters and the list goes on. Then there are the serious minded shooters, the ones that fall into the category of "defensive shooters".

These individuals are the CCW holders, the females (and males) that take responsibility for their own welfare and most law enforcement. (And some are those tinfoil hat wearing sorts that believe the United Nations will soon be attempting to disarm American citizens by force.:rolleyes:)
These weapons aficionados are the ones that think/hope they know enough that if ever faced with lethal force to fight and hopefully prevail. They are law abiding citizens and take advice and just enough training to get by, they hope.

In my opinion their training is adequate, only because the evil men they face usually possess no weapons training at all.

Think about this, you’ve been playing golf for years, you can break 100 on a good day but you are anything but pro. Now enter that beginner, his first day and he barely knows which direction to swing his club, has six clubs in his bag, is hyped on drugs and adrenalin, challenges you to best of 18 holes competition. Not much of a challenge right? Food for thought.

Like golf weapons training depends on what you want out of it, do you want to beat that beginner or take on Tiger Woods? Or are you looking for a happy place in the middle?

That’s the first step in your weapons training, knowing what you want out of it. As in any decision, you first need to set your goal and then move to accomplish that goal.

I have little doubt Tiger Woods could show you the proper swing in an hour, but without practice and a lot more training & commitment you don’t have a snowballs chance in hell beating Tiger one on one.

Same goes for weapons training, again food for thought.

I really enjoy the individuals that tell me: “I want to shoot like you!” to which I answer, "fine, you only have a few more years of hard training ahead."

Set your training goal, then set out to meet it.

Team Sergeant

monsterhunter

03-16-2008, 11:36

Great analogy Team Sergeant, I think I'll spread your words around my area if you don't mind. Thanks for posting.

Sten

03-16-2008, 11:42

Would you elaborate on "controlled jerk" a bit.

NoRoadtrippin

03-16-2008, 11:55

Excellent post. Its just one more among many that is helping me to learn the correct mindset as I get started in my military career.

In a couple weeks, I'm taking AWG's basic BRM course, having this thread and others in mind will hopefully help me to get as much as possible out of such an opportunity.

Thanks Team Sergeant.

Dragbag036

03-16-2008, 12:22

TS

You hit the nail on the head. Can we take it to another level? What really is our shooting program? Does sending one to an advanced school imply that he is now a great shot. Its only the beginning. Going downrange and shooting a bunch of bullets also does not make one an expert, but it does give a person insight into what he really needs to focus on. Many times concentrating on advanced skills instead of the basics and fundamentals of shooting gives individuals false sense of skill. I see it every class. (I've been there, done that, have two years time...but I can't shoot a group at 25m with my M4):lifter

Just my .02cents

Team Sergeant

03-17-2008, 08:21

Would you elaborate on "controlled jerk" a bit.

Yes I could, especially since I made up the term.;)

It's simply jerking the trigger the same way everytime causing a "shot group" but not in the place the individual was intending. The shot group looks fine and no one would ever question the fact it was not where the individual was actually aiming.
A way to check if someone has indeed a controlled jerk is by using the "ball and dummy" drill.;)

I've seen it many times and in every case its a seasoned shooter.

Team Sergeant

Tubbs

03-17-2008, 14:52

Gentleman, I have a question for the Professional Soldiers.
If you could only shoot 100 rounds of centerfire ammo a month as practice in your handgun how would you shoot it?

The Reaper

03-17-2008, 15:16

Gentleman, I have a question for the Professional Soldiers.
If you could only shoot 100 rounds of centerfire ammo a month as practice in your handgun how would you shoot it?

I would tell you to read this thread before asking again.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11553

TR

Tubbs

03-17-2008, 23:20

Roger that sir.
I have that thread saved to my desktop.
I also took Perigrino's idea from the "pistol coaching via e-mail" thread.
I should have been more specific and to the point in my original post.
I have a 100 round drill that I came up with as a hodgepodge of what I have read here and in a copy of American Handgunner where Clint Smith addressed this topic. I have been using it for roughly a year. I would like some critique on it.
NDD said "I disagree with "self-diagnosis" in neophytes. And most people in general. If you knew what you were doing wrong, you could just stop it."
I am looking for a more experiecned perspective on this than my own.

My targets are paper plates. If I hit the plate the shot counts, if not it doesn't.

Slow Fire- 30rnds
10rnds @ 7m
10rnds @ 15m
10rnds @ 25m

Draw and Fire and Reloading- 30rnds @ 7m
3rnds one mag, 2rnds second mag
Load 3rnd mag and holster pistol.
Draw, fire, reload, fire.
I do this drill 6x

Then I set up two plates vertically, one on top of the other and an index card on the top.
I draw from holstered, fire 2rnds at the top plate, followed by two at the bottom plate and finally one to the notecard. I preform this drill 4x @ 7yds.

Next I fire 10rnds @ 7yds in rapid succession.

Finally I shoot 5rnds weak hand supported and 5rnds weak hand unsupported both at @ 7yds.

I average 90% accuracy overall in the exercise. I seem to be stuck here. I keep a shot log of how many rounds I shoot, the type of ammo, time and date and my accuracy. If I have a friend with me I get them to load the mags for me and slip in a snap cap to simualte a malfunction.
TS, I can do 100 proper pushups immediately followed by 6 proper pull-ups so I am still working on the physical fitness aspects of proper shooting.

frostfire

03-18-2008, 02:57

Thank you posting the link, Reaper Sir. Years ago when I went through it, there were many terms I did not understand. But now, everything mentioned made complete sense and felt nostalgic.

There are enough legitimate, high quality training tips already on this board to create an uber gunfighter if the aspirant can put it all together. (That's easier said than done.) I'm no uber gunfighter, but I've put my skills against those who attends numerous shooting classes and more years of experience. Sometimes I beat them, but they were always impressed. The search button is indeed the best thing since microwave

TS, I can do 100 proper pushups immediately followed by 6 proper pull-ups so I am still working on the physical fitness aspects of proper shooting.

FWIW

IIRC, the TS did tell someone to go learn how to shoot from him once he can execute proper 100 push-ups and 20 pull-ups (got the pull-ups done, working on the push-ups, TS). However, in a different thread, grip and forearm strength were mentioned being necessary to shoot properly each and every time. I imagine one would do exercises more specific to these two areas. I do these:
- 6 and 10 pounds dumbbell/brick lifts, then held in right and left offhand position (gripped by finger tips, eye focused on the weight when up, then on the distance when down) for 1 to 2 minutes
- Forearm weight-roller
- Crossfit hammer drills.
I could be way off on the proper names of these exercises. These are for pistol. I do something else for rifle

Back to my lane...

Team Sergeant

03-18-2008, 09:04

I average 90% accuracy overall in the exercise. I seem to be stuck here. I keep a shot log of how many rounds I shoot, the type of ammo, time and date and my accuracy. If I have a friend with me I get them to load the mags for me and slip in a snap cap to simualte a malfunction.
TS, I can do 100 proper pushups immediately followed by 6 proper pull-ups so I am still working on the physical fitness aspects of proper shooting.

90% accurate..... not good enough. Slow down and become 100% accurate, then slowly turn up the speed.

I think The Reaper has written this a number of times on here:

"Speed is fine but accuracy is final."

Do yourself a favor, stop reading anything Clint Smith is professing and start reading all that Paul Howe is writing.

Team Sergeant

FWIW

IIRC, the TS did tell someone to go learn how to shoot from him once he can execute proper 100 push-ups and 20 pull-ups (got the pull-ups done, working on the push-ups, TS). However, in a different thread, grip and forearm strength were mentioned being necessary to shoot properly each and every time. I imagine one would do exercises more specific to these two areas. I do these:
- 6 and 10 pounds dumbbell/brick lifts, then held in right and left offhand position (gripped by finger tips, eye focused on the weight when up, then on the distance when down) for 1 to 2 minutes
- Forearm weight-roller
- Crossfit hammer drills.
I could be way off on the proper names of these exercises. These are for pistol. I do something else for rifle

Back to my lane...

Sounds like you're on the right road!

TS

swatsurgeon

03-18-2008, 11:04

I have to throw this in here, TS and I have had this discussion before with DocT.

Efficiency breeds speed, speed breeds mistakes. The fastest are THE MOST efficient masters of their trade, whether it's a surgeon, shooter or what ever requires multistep actions.

TS hammers his points and they are all true....I am a believer because he has has the pleasure (yeah right), I mean privilege of training my sorry ass to shoot better/more efficiently, and it works. Now I am working on consistency; once my arm heals.....

ss

Tubbs

03-18-2008, 12:00

90% accurate..... not good enough. Slow down and become 100% accurate, then slowly turn up the speed.

I think The Reaper has written this a number of times on here:

"Speed is fine but accuracy is final."

Do yourself a favor, stop reading anything Clint Smith is professing and start reading all that Paul Howe is writing.

Team Sergeant

TS

Solid copy sir. I will be on google.
What is wrong with Clint Smith?

Team Sergeant

03-18-2008, 12:30

Solid copy sir. I will be on google.
What is wrong with Clint Smith?

Absolutely nothing if you are in the market for antiquated defensive training & techniques.

mumbleypeg

03-18-2008, 14:33

Having reread TS's op and reread Reaper's link I went to the range and slowly worked through TS's training.

I then went home and learned all about vivo y pedejo, mostly pendejo. I went for a bike ride, fell off and received a Radial head fracture for my effort.

The good news I'm left handed and fractured my right arm. The bad news, I shoot right handed. I will be working on left handed snap cap drills for a while.

As my mother is fond of saying "everyday is a school day".

I would also like to mention that TS is a masterful teacher.

kgoerz

03-18-2008, 15:27

I am in a 12 week training Academy right now. We shoot just about every day. Being in the second week we are just now finishing our 15M to 25M slow fire. As painful as a week+ of slow fire was. It improved my shooting greatly. Don’t think slow fire is only for beginners. Its something you have to continuously return to.

nmap

03-18-2008, 22:09

A weak grip tells me the individual is not an advanced shooter and will have a long road ahead to become a great shooter. Conversely a strong grip tells me that they have the necessary physical strength to become an advanced shooter

Sir, I am surely in the weak grip category. I would appreciate guidance on how I can begin remedying the situation.

Gene Econ

03-20-2008, 19:11

Sir, I am surely in the weak grip category. I would appreciate guidance on how I can begin remedying the situation.

nmap:

Not sure why you think your grip isn't strong enough but mash a racket ball for a few hours a day and after about six months you will notice a very decisive ability to grip things. There are a bunch of things you can do but probably the racket ball technique will be one you may even stick with for more than a week. Obviously you don't lift weights for exercise. If you did, you would not be questioning your ability to hold on to a pistol under recoil.

So what are your goals? I am not sure if motivation occurs before goals or goals create motivation. Honestly, no one knows which comes first. Goals assist in focusing your motivation and resources. The stronger your desire to achieve a very well defined goal, the more you will be willing to sacrifice other things in order to attain that goal.

Define your goals very specifically. Then state how you will attain those goals -- very specifically. There are many web sites devoted to goals setting and accomplishment. All say about the same things.

Let me caution you on a couple of things. Guys who are goals oriented get upset when others start out their goals statements with caveats such as "I only have ten rounds of ammo per week and can only get to the range once every month." Or "my wife doesn't like guns so I have to keep this real quiet." Or "I work two jobs so do not have a-lot of time." Guys who caveat stuff are already saying that they aren't serious about goals attainment. They are giving themselves and excuse for failing to achieve their goals.

Gene on Goals

nmap

03-20-2008, 19:55

Thank you, Sir. I appreciate the excellent ideas.

Actually, I do a minimal amount of weight lifting - I go to a small gym and do 30 minutes of cardio workout and 10 minutes on a universal machine, 5 times per week. It's better than nothing, but not much.

I can hold onto the firearm well enough (Glock 22, 155 gr. Federal Hydroshoks), and hit the target at usual civilian training distances of 15 yards or less - but the shots lack the precision I would like. I'm also unhappy with my speed and effectiveness when I try to do a double-tap.

My goal is simple enough - I want to improve my self-defense abilities (yes, I know I need to be more specific). It's my opinion that some of the long term economic trends will increase the crime levels, and hence the likelihood of facing some challenges in the years ahead. But you make a good point about "caveats" - excuses for failure mark a poor beginning for any project.

I'll take a look at the goal setting material you mention; decades ago, I went to a motivation seminar that emphasized writing down goals. I was amazed at some of the things I got done.

Thank you again. I'll find that racket ball and start squeezing.

x-factor

04-24-2008, 13:35

I went shooting today for the first time since at least November (I had sports injuries to my left wrist and then my right hand) and it was a disaster. When I was in shape I qualified near perfect and was shooting palm-sized groups at a fairly rapid pace. Today, geez, I was a mess...7 yards looked like 15, my trigger finger placement was all over, my stance felt wrong, etc etc.

Also, to answer TS's earlier preliminaries...I do have the requisite strength described earlier. My training has all come through my job from current and former special operations personnel, so I feel pretty confident that I'm working from a good base set of knowledge. I'm interested only in practical shooting (I hardly ever put the target farther than 10 yards). My goal is higher than civilian self-defense, but not quite a full military standard. I'm not going to be attacking anything, but I want to be able to pull my weight in the event that me or my element comes under attack while in the field and I want the guys I travel to be confident that I'm not a security liability. (Am I making a false distinction between offensive and defensive scenarios?)

Has anyone else ever had to rehab their skills after a long break? Was there a specific drill or routine that helped you or is it just about getting reps? I'm worried that I'm just going to reinforce a bunch of bad habits if I just try to "practice" myself back into shape. Any advice from the experts would be greatly appreciated.

82ndtrooper

04-24-2008, 14:06

Yes I could, especially since I made up the term.;)

It's simply jerking the trigger the same way everytime causing a "shot group" but not in the place the individual was intending. The shot group looks fine and no one would ever question the fact it was not where the individual was actually aiming.
A way to check if someone has indeed a controlled jerk is by using the "ball and dummy" drill.;)

I've seen it many times and in every case its a seasoned shooter.

Team Sergeant

Prior to actual tactical pistol training by professionals I was one of those "controlled jerkers" on a static paper target at 25 meters. My group was tight, but it was alway's high and left of the center of the B-27 target.

Certain professionals showed my the "thumbs forward" grip. This helped in of itself because it tends to allow the shooter, at least me, to have an index finger and a thumb directly on plane with the target. Next was proper follow through on the trigger and two sight's for every shot taken. The ball and dummy drill cured this.

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

swatsurgeon

04-24-2008, 14:23

I'm now 2 months after surgery on my right arm and have to wait one more month.......
TS whispering in my ear: DRY FIRE, again, and again, and again............

Archangel

04-25-2008, 12:57

Thank you, Sir. I appreciate the excellent ideas.

Actually, I do a minimal amount of weight lifting - I go to a small gym and do 30 minutes of cardio workout and 10 minutes on a universal machine, 5 times per week. It's better than nothing, but not much.

Go three times a week instead and do 30 minutes on specific muscle groups using free weights and 30 minutes cardio to finish up.

It could look something like this:

Day 1: Chest / Shoulders & Triceps - Cardio

Day 2: Rest

Day 3: Legs / Abs - Cardio

Day 4: Rest

Day 5: Back / Biceps - Cardio

Day 6: Rest

Day 7: Go to church. :cool:

I can hold onto the firearm well enough (Glock 22, 155 gr. Federal Hydroshoks), and hit the target at usual civilian training distances of 15 yards or less - but the shots lack the precision I would like. I'm also unhappy with my speed and effectiveness when I try to do a double-tap.

Bring the distance back down to 7 yards until your accuracy improves. Stop doing "double-taps" and start doing "controlled pairs." The difference is that you don't pull the trigger on the second shot until you have a sight picture. Be precise and be smooth. Don't start doing controlled pairs until your single shots are hitting exactly where you want them to hit. Perfect your stance, grip, breathing, trigger manipulation (taking off slack), sight alignment, smooth trigger squeeze and follow-through.

:)

Edit by Razor: Maybe your eyes are better than mine, but Navy on Black was pretty hard to read.

JGarcia

04-26-2008, 00:18

Has anyone here ever attended the US Army Marksmanship Units Close Quarters Marksmanship Course which is taught at Ft. Benning?

I have received the green light to get myself and as many of my NCO's as the school will accept through USAMU's course. Several people in my state are enamored with "Gunsite" and "Thunder Ranch" and our state is more than willing to send Soldiers to both. Fortunately for me it's not an either or situation, we can attend USAMU and Thunder Ranch (... I know, he's not Paul Howe or Don Hollenbaugh, but I don't have to pay for it, so why not go?)

If anyone has any feedback regarding the USAMU course, can you PM me with your comments please? Thank you very much.

Smokin Joe

04-26-2008, 02:41

I don't know shit about USAMU program but I have been to a gunsite class, know a few instructors from Thunder Ranch, and have had the privilege to have TS fix all my shooting problems.

My advise is go to every shoot school, you can get, you or your ppl into. Then when you think you got it. Go see Paul Howe or TS.

My point is every school is going (or is going to attempt to) teach you how to shoot, or something related to gunfighting. Some of it will be crap, some of it maybe worth your time to learn. You can forget the crap after the class. Once your shooting and moving like a modern day gunfighter. Go see Paul or TS to have them sharpen your skills to a Harsey edge.

If time (not money) is your factor don't screw around go see the Masters now!

Just my .02 cents.

kgoerz

04-26-2008, 05:27

Remember it's your training/Dime in these Shooting Schools. To many times I see people knocking the center out of their Target for an entire day. If your knocking out the X-Ring then speed yourself up. When you start throwing rounds out of the kill zone then slow back down.
Its not like your going to hang your Target up on your Refrigerator.....thou I have seen people do that.

jbour13

04-26-2008, 07:58

Yet another great thread by the members of PS.com.

I'm stocking up on ammo and saving my pennies to attend a 2 or 3 day course here in the local area.

Until then I'm on SwatSurgeon's training program........dry fire, dry fire, dry fire! :D

triQshot

04-26-2008, 09:54

Team Sergeant

04-26-2008, 10:37

Now I've read this thread, and I've noted alot of things that I will take with me, but I was wondering what "stance" do yall approve of the most?

a. Isosceles Stance

or

b. "Weaver" Stance

At the Academy they are teaching us the Isosceles Shooting Stance and are getting away from the "Weaver Stance." The reason they give us...is that during the weaver stance your ribs are open to fire from a suspect. They tell us that the Isosceles stance is better because your standing broad shoulder and your chest is covered.

The problem I see is movement, with the Isosceles Stance, your legs are "locked" and your off balance to a point. With the Weaver stance movement is easier and your balanced on your front foot.

What do you guys perfer when shooting the old six shooter?

triQshot,

Might I suggest you use the "search" button and input "Weaver Stance". You will find what you are looking for.....

But since I'm in a good mood and have had my morning cup of joe I'll answer your question.

No one in Special Forces uses the weaver stance. It's not been taught for decades. It went by way of the dodo just like point shooting and for good reason.

I'm sure its still being taught at many places across the country and at some of the "large" gun ranges/ranches run by folks old enough to be my grandfather.:D

Think about it, if I taught you one stance and one proper way of using a handgun you'd only be at my academy, course, range or ranch a few days. Now if I taught you all the styles, 99% of which are useless but kept you at my ranch, range or academy an extra three weeks filling your head with garbage I'd be that much richer......

If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bullshit.:D

Team Sergeant

triQshot

04-26-2008, 10:54

Sorry TS, I used the search button after I posted, and you caught me, I was coming back to edit and clear everything out and put the reason for editing "Im a dumbass that didn't use the search button."

Thanks for the info TS, and thank for not wacking my head off.

During inservice in June the FI's are going to let us run some combat quals, and do our yearly quals on the FBI's Q targets. I've learned my lesson...search more carefully before posting.

thanks again

Team Sergeant

04-26-2008, 11:00

At the Academy they are teaching us the Isosceles Shooting Stance and are getting away from the "Weaver Stance." The reason they give us...is that during the weaver stance your ribs are open to fire from a suspect. They tell us that the Isosceles stance is better because your standing broad shoulder and your chest is covered.
The problem I see is movement, with the Isosceles Stance, your legs are "locked" and your off balance to a point. With the Weaver stance movement is easier and your balanced on your front foot.

What do you guys perfer when shooting the old six shooter?

Isosceles stance is better because your standing broad shoulder and your chest is covered.

Your chest is covered??????????????? and what pray tell is standing broad shoulder have to do with shooting?

Next time you're out west let me know. It's quite obvious your instructors are in dire need of instruction......:rolleyes:

TS

triQshot

04-26-2008, 11:16

nmap

04-26-2008, 12:03

Bring the distance back down to 7 yards until your accuracy improves

Those sound like great ideas! I'll get to work on them.

Thank you.

Team Sergeant

04-26-2008, 12:13

Sorry TS, let me explain that a little bit better.

They want us standing broad shoulder because, they say "You have more protection standing broad shoulder and with your chest facing your suspect, that the vest will protect you more, than if your standing at an angle."

Like with the "Weaver" they are telling us that your ribs are more vunerable to fire, because the vest are weaker on the sides and that your underarms is not fully protected from a shot.

So they do not want us to stand at an angle for this reason, so they want us to shoot "Iso" with our chest pointed toward our foe. "For protection" in the event of a shoot out.

This what they are teaching everyone that comes to the academy, troopers, opossum police, marine patrol and basic police. By the way TS we are shooting your favorite pistol of all time, the glock. :D I'd perfer a sig or hk, but its what they are issuing the troopers, and as a reserve trooper thats what I'm expected to carry.

I would agree with some of what they said, but that’s not the reason to use the isosceles over the weaver.

When taught correctly the isosceles is a superior stance for all handguns and offensive movement techniques. When employed he isosceles is ambidextrous, meaning you can enter doorways from either direction without giving up the strong side shooting preference. (Anyone that tells you to switch arms to enter rooms is full of crap.)

The isosceles allows easy use of either eye as the weapon is drawn to the middle of the shooter and not to a strong side.

The isosceles allows for better recoil recovery therefore enhancing speed especially the double tap. The isosceles also is much easier to hold for longer periods of time as compared to the weaver.

I could go on and on…..

Next time you use the isosceles bend and lean forward just enough to be able to “step off” using your weak side foot. Do this each and every time you shoot. If you cannot “step off” from your shooting stance your stance is incorrect.

And, listen closely as I do want you, an officer of the law to win any and all engagements against bad men, forget about where you might get shot…… forget about what your vest will or will not do for you, first and foremost learn to “win the fight” period.
I personally loathe those that teach LEO’s to shoot only in a defensive manner. Let me tell you a secret, while I believe you (LEO’s) are issued a pistol for your own personal defense and are trained in LE defensive techniques tactics and procedures , the first time you "move forward" with a pistol in your hand you just went "offensive". (Read that last sentence five times.)

Now that I've told you that Federal, State and local LE “secret” do a google search and find me all the shooting academies, courses, ranges or ranches that teach “Offensive pistol shooting” techniques tactics or procedures. Please tell me how many “offensive” handgun courses you have attended?

I am not picking on you, I am picking on all those that send you into harms way armed with just enough knowledge to be dangerous & with minimal weapons instruction, just enough to beat the bad man that only learned to shoot watching hollywood movies.

Save your money and take a course from Paul Howe or Dave Harrington. If you come to Phoenix and show me a badge I’ll take you out for a few hours, for free.

Team Sergeant

triQshot

04-26-2008, 12:26

TS, I've never attended firearms training before. Everything I know about shooting I learned from hunting with my dad. (Deer, Dove, Turkey, Rabbits, etc.)

The firearms training that they are giving us, is the only "taught" course I have ever been involved in.

I understand what your saying, and I'll do the step off's when I hit the range on my next off days.

Thanks for the info TS.

frostfire

04-28-2008, 23:19

If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bullshit.:D
learn new ways everyday to express things in succinct, effective manner.

Thanks for the education on “step off” TS. If I understand this correctly: Only lean forward so much that you can lift the weak-side leg without stumbling forward?

Since this topic is back running....
There are a bunch of things you can do

Gene Econ Sir, the advice you gave was on grip. Does grip exercise also cover wrist strengthening as to prevent "limp-wristing"?

My rumination:
The aggressive stance allows the force of the recoil not absorbed by only the wrist, but distributed to elbow, shoulder, hip, and ultimately the whole body weight. However, at the hand alone, the wrist(s) has to be able to handle the torque caused by the bullet exiting the barrel at a higher plane than the forearm. The muscle responsible for this should be the one extending along from the base of pinky towards the ulna. If this muscle is exercised aka. flexed regulary with a demanding resistance, it'd be less prone to get extended when the gun goes bang. So activities such as splitting woods, casting fishing-rod, badminton, kyudo etc. would help shooting? :o

Disclaimer: I'm just an ordinary Joe with extreme interest in deconstructing things, breaking it apart to elements to be worked on individually with any relevant boundary conditions, then putting them back together to see if it results in improvement. If not, back to the drawing board. Anyone, feel free to tear it apart, or as I always believe: My way, or the better way.

Team Sergeant

04-29-2008, 07:56

learn new ways everyday to express things in succinct, effective manner.

Thanks for the education on “step off” TS. If I understand this correctly: Only lean forward so much that you can lift the weak-side leg without stumbling forward?

Since this topic is back running....

Gene Econ Sir, the advice you gave was on grip. Does grip exercise also cover wrist strengthening as to prevent "limp-wristing"?

My rumination:
The aggressive stance allows the force of the recoil not absorbed by only the wrist, but distributed to elbow, shoulder, hip, and ultimately the whole body weight. However, at the hand alone, the wrist(s) has to be able to handle the torque caused by the bullet exiting the barrel at a higher plane than the forearm. The muscle responsible for this should be the one extending along from the base of pinky towards the ulna. If this muscle is exercised aka. flexed regulary with a demanding resistance, it'd be less prone to get extended when the gun goes bang. So activities such as splitting woods, casting fishing-rod, badminton, kyudo etc. would help shooting? :o

Disclaimer: I'm just an ordinary Joe with extreme interest in deconstructing things, breaking it apart to elements to be worked on individually with any relevant boundary conditions, then putting them back together to see if it results in improvement. If not, back to the drawing board. Anyone, feel free to tear it apart, or as I always believe: My way, or the better way.

By "aggressive" stance I take you probably mean "fighting" stance. You see, unlike those thousands of civilian "defensive instructors" we have teaching in the United States we in the military know that in a two way fight you need to be able to "move" and not just stand in one place when engaged.
In the military we also benefit from taking the fight to the bad guy and not waiting for him to bring it to us.

Again, if the stance you use does not allow you to easily step off from it then you never learned a proper fighting stance. Learning to shoot and learning to fight with a weapon are apples and oranges.

TS

kgoerz

04-29-2008, 16:11

To expand on what TS just said.
Once you master the basics, hitting the kill zone consistently at 25 Meters, Magazine exchanges, Magazine exchanges, immediate action drills....etc.
Shooting should no longer be a stationary exercise for you. Unless your already behind cover you need to be moving to cover. Or just moving while shooting, reloading, immediate action, magazine exchange.....etc.

Gene Econ

04-30-2008, 20:53

Gene Econ Sir, the advice you gave was on grip. Does grip exercise also cover wrist strengthening as to prevent "limp-wristing"? Disclaimer: I'm just an ordinary Joe with extreme interest in deconstructing things, breaking it apart to elements to be worked on individually with any relevant boundary conditions, then putting them back together to see if it results in improvement. If not, back to the drawing board. Anyone, feel free to tear it apart, or as I always believe: My way, or the better way.

Dave:

Yes, squashing a racket ball for a few hours a day will strengthen your wrist and will probably develop an immense amount of force after months of squashing said racket ball or squashing device used for folks who are nervous.

You can do wrist curls, reverse curls, monkey curls, et al. Dead lifting is also an incredible exercise for developing a vice like grip.

Guys put helmets over the barrels of their M-4's and hold for several sets of increasing seconds. Guys tie ten and fifteen pound wieghts to their pistols and practice their holds to get strength.

Instead of all that how about doing this. Do a few sets of wrist and reverse curls when you hit the gym. Do them three times a week with your exercise and increase the weight regularly. Fifteen or twenty reps of five or six sets is just fine.

Now, that being said -- it is far more important for you to train your finger to move when your eyes see a 'good enough' sight picture for your particular purpose. You do this by conditioning your mind to trust your eyes and finger. That is about 95% of the equation.

I deal with a system that insists guys square off to an enemy before shooting. Chest plate towards enemy. It is absurd as most guys have only an insticntual idea where the enemy is, how many enemy are shooting at him, or at what angles to his body armor. And they can't move too well in the issued body armor.

The result is obvious -- if your first decision is based on squaring off to a threat that you can't see then you will delay your action by seconds. Thats why I am not a pusher of squaring off to a threat. Rather I emphasize fast and very precise shots -- no matter one's position.

You can hold a pistol firm enough. Train your eyes to see and your finger to move. Then train yourself to trust your training.

Gene