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Daredevil63
03-04-2008, 23:28
I'm looking for some advice on reloading 5.56 sub-sonic ammo. Info such as bullet type and weight, powder type and amount, primers, and anything else that is necessary. I am aware that sub sonic 5.56 doesn't usually cycle and the risk of getting a sqiub or blow up the rifle itself. I have tried devoloping a load from the reseached I gathered at the time and the 1st load worked fine but the 2nd with a grain more powder costed me an upper receiver. I would like to try again but there is little margin for error and like to compare notes with someone else. If you do have some infomation but don't want to reveil because of the risk involved I understand. But feel free share any knowledge on the subject for it is not pacifically discussed in this forum. Thanks.

The Reaper
03-05-2008, 06:15
I'm looking for some advice on reloading 5.56 sub-sonic ammo. Info such as bullet type and weight, powder type and amount, primers, and anything else that is necessary. I am aware that sub sonic 5.56 doesn't usually cycle and the risk of getting a sqiub or blow up the rifle itself. I have tried devoloping a load from the reseached I gathered at the time and the 1st load worked fine but the 2nd with a grain more powder costed me an upper receiver. I would like to try again but there is little margin for error and like to compare notes with someone else. If you do have some infomation but don't want to reveil because of the risk involved I understand. But feel free share any knowledge on the subject for it is not pacifically discussed in this forum. Thanks.


The terminal ballistics of a sub-sonic 5.56 are going to be pretty bad.

And unless you have a suppressor, it won't matter.

Have you considered a .22LR conversion kit and some CB Longs or subsonic .22LR?

TR

Daredevil63
03-05-2008, 11:14
Roger that my prepose for the subsonic is I'm designing a suppresser and I'm trying to see how quiet I can get it without the use of wipes. With the cost of a new upper, material, tools, and the $200.00 for the class 3 approval I'm already over what I attended to spend. I would try to use wipes but I'm not sure what type of plastic or rubber that is used. If you could shed any light on that it would be deeply apprecaited as well. Thanks alot again.

The Reaper
03-05-2008, 11:21
Roger that my prepose for the subsonic is I'm designing a suppresser and I'm trying to see how quiet I can get it without the use of wipes. With the cost of a new upper, material, tools, and the $200.00 for the class 3 approval I'm already over what I attended to spend. I would try to use wipes but I'm not sure what type of plastic or rubber that is used. If you could shed any light on that it would be deeply apprecaited as well. Thanks alot again.

We will not be discussing home suppressor construction on this forum.

Thanks for asking.

TR

Air.177
03-05-2008, 11:23
Be advised, Rubber wipes are considered internal suppressor parts and anyone playing with such things is doing so at there own risk. The ATF has given folks a lot of grief over such things in the past. As for subsonic load data, there was some chatter elsewhere about using Trail Boss powder for that application but I do not know any more than that. Subsonic .223 is highly specialized and can be a pain in the ass as far as actually cycling the weapon. If you are looking for movie quiet with anything resembling reliability and useful payload, I recommend taking a look a .300 Whisper. YMMV, but you are treading a slippery slope.

Blake

Daredevil63
03-05-2008, 11:46
Thanks again. I would bet this type of discusion could get someone in trouble or hurt if they have no experience in this type of thing. Sub-load, silencers and suppressers is someting that interest me and would like to study more about it. If anyone has suggestions for any books or articles that be great. Have a good day.

Peregrino
03-05-2008, 12:09
Not a good idea. There's a reason for rounds like the .300 Whisper. If you want to continue, I would recommend allocating a significant portion of your budget to medical insurance. You haven't destroyed your last receiver. The next time it happens, you might not be as lucky. Having witnessed squib loads, bulged barrels, and split receivers I'm not terribly sympathetic of injured experimenters.

Animal8526
05-16-2008, 22:30
another vote for .300 whisper. it is the perfect round for suppressed work. cycles flawlessly as long as you modify the gas system to compensate.

a good buddy of mine just built and tested a .300 wsp upper on his class III lower... thing cycles like a dream on FA. if I recall, the tweak that made it all come together was tapping the barrel for the gas port where it would be if it were in a pistol configuration.

be advised though, that ammo is not cheap.

JJ_BPK
05-17-2008, 06:08
I'm looking for some advice on reloading 5.56 sub-sonic ammo.

WHY bother?? If you have a nut for .556,, look at Engle Ballistic Research's MM Ultra Stealth Match Ammunition.. It is sub-sonic but will not cycle an M4 action. That's by design. Cycling the action can make as much noise as the sub-sonic crack...

If you want quite, read up on the development of the .300 Whisper (as mentioned) or the 9x39 VSS "Vintorez", a necked up 7.62x39.

ALthough there are .22 cal rounds that are quite,, They are typically limited to short ranges, because of feeble terminal ballistics, lobing trajectories, and wind drift inaccuracies..

The other end, big and slow, is not only easer(read safer) to develop,, but there is a world of ammo already available..

Before you spend a bunch,, you may want to sit down and state the obvious,, what is the range, what are the expected terminal ballistics, what is the target penetration requirements.

I think you might find the .22 cal lacking in almost all areas...

Good Luck,,,

Animal8526
05-17-2008, 19:24
oh, and I just remembered... if you do go .300 whisper, you won't have to change anything other than the barrel. bolt face is the same, mags are the same... you'll be good to go. makes it nice when the only thing you have to change out is your upper. swap the bolt carrier group and your good to rock... very quietly of course.:D

Ambush Master
05-18-2008, 10:42
PEOPLE!!!

Be advised and I mean VERY advised that there are a few ATF/FBI Agents that lurk on here. I have had PMs with them and they are not looking for anything, but if they happen upon it, trust me they will take action!!

I have manufactured a Machinegun, legally licensed (see http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1705), and have many Class III Dealers as friends. Even discussing how to manufacture something can be construed into "Conspiring to Manufacture"!! While discussing Sub-sonic ammo is not illegal, the external mechanics of keeping it quiet are!! BE CAREFUL!!!

Take care.
Martin

Animal8526
05-18-2008, 18:47
PEOPLE!!!

Be advised and I mean VERY advised that there are a few ATF/FBI Agents that lurk on here. I have had PMs with them and they are not looking for anything, but if they happen upon it, trust me they will take action!!

I have manufactured a Machinegun, legally licensed (see http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1705), and have many Class III Dealers as friends. Even discussing how to manufacture something can be construed into "Conspiring to Manufacture"!! While discussing Sub-sonic ammo is not illegal, the external mechanics of keeping it quiet are!! BE CAREFUL!!!

Take care.
Martin

Yup, its a big no no for sure... unless you are doing it legally. he did mention paying the $200 tax stamp. it is legal (at least thats what letters from the BATF have led me to believe) to manufacture suppressors yourself provided 2 things...

1.) you CANNOT manufacture them for commercial purposes, and you may never transfer them to another individual.

2.) you MUST physically make it yourself. someone may guide you, but your hand needs to be running the tool the entire time.

3.) be aware that the can needs to be serialized just like a commercial one.

still, you are skating in a dangerous gray area when you start doing shit like this... much better to just buy one off the shelf and not worry about the ATF kicking down your door.

300LW
05-19-2008, 20:11
There is nothing wrong with building your own suppressor, as long as you first file an ATF Form 1. Keep in mind that any part of a suppressor is considered a registered part. You cannot make any extra baffles, wipes, tubes, etc. Follow the rules and stay within the law. Unless you have a full machine shop and extensive experience, though, it is probably better to buy one from a registered manufacturer.

The Reaper
05-19-2008, 20:25
There is nothing wrong with building your own suppressor, as long as you first file an ATF Form 1. Keep in mind that any part of a suppressor is considered a registered part. You cannot make any extra baffles, wipes, tubes, etc. Follow the rules and stay within the law. Unless you have a full machine shop and extensive experience, though, it is probably better to buy one from a registered manufacturer.

Did you not get a registration message with instructions when you signed-up here, or do you feel they do not apply to you?

TR

300LW
05-20-2008, 09:13
I was certain that I had posted an introduction, but was apparently thinking about my public profile. Memory's not what it used to be. :confused: I apologize.

tinmanHRSO
06-14-2008, 03:17
There is nothing wrong with building your own suppressor, as long as you first file an ATF Form 1. Keep in mind that any part of a suppressor is considered a registered part. You cannot make any extra baffles, wipes, tubes, etc. Follow the rules and stay within the law. Unless you have a full machine shop and extensive experience, though, it is probably better to buy one from a registered manufacturer.

I always understood that unless you possess a curent and valid ClassII manufacturers license along with an FFL it would be unlawful to manufacture any type of device which would lower firearm noise levels. Just my .02

Btw, I've been doing range evaluations using supressors manufactured by "Jet Suppressors" with 5.56, 7.62x39,51 and 54R, and Walther pistols in .22LR, 9mm and .45. Included in their waiver of liability form agreement there is a line which states that the disassembly of their suppressors beyond the levels necessary for maintenence will not only void the warranty but it's also a violation of NFA guidelines.

Trying to save a few bucks is never worth the risk of losing your freedom, the right to bear arms FOREVER, and the compromise of your personal safety from inexperience.

tinmanHRSO
06-14-2008, 03:32
I'm looking for some advice on reloading 5.56 sub-sonic ammo. Info such as bullet type and weight, powder type and amount, primers, and anything else that is necessary. I am aware that sub sonic 5.56 doesn't usually cycle and the risk of getting a sqiub or blow up the rifle itself. I have tried devoloping a load from the reseached I gathered at the time and the 1st load worked fine but the 2nd with a grain more powder costed me an upper receiver. I would like to try again but there is little margin for error and like to compare notes with someone else. If you do have some infomation but don't want to reveil because of the risk involved I understand. But feel free share any knowledge on the subject for it is not pacifically discussed in this forum. Thanks.

I used to bang my head against the wall curious to find the secret recipe for a great subsonic round which would still perform well. At least out to 200 meters or so. You'd have your kill and wth a good can, nobody would hear it. Well, I've never had any luck finding that golden bullet.

What I have discovered is that there are several very high quality suppressors out there which lower the sound levels of even the hottest rounds through rifles such as my 10.5" SBR to a level low enough to eliminate the need for hearing protection. The only true way to appreciate the effects is in person. Shoot without the can, and then with it. It's a difference that can't be reproduced by watching a video. Just last week I tested a 5" suppressor 1 3/4" thick for the 5.56x45 rifles. Mounted on my 10.5 SBR, and using full powered M855 SS109 rounds, the suppressor lower the sound level almost equal to a loud handclap. No need for plugs, and it performed just as well in full auto. If used in action, sure you can still hear it easily from your firing position, but if your target is several hundred meters away, even if those close by hear the shot, they'll never be able to identify where it came from because the explosion is now just a crack.

HOLLiS
06-14-2008, 11:35
I used to bang my head against the wall curious to find the secret recipe for a great subsonic round which would still perform well. At least out to 200 meters or so. You'd have your kill and wth a good can, nobody would hear it. Well, I've never had any luck finding that golden bullet.

What I have discovered is that there are several very high quality suppressors out there which lower the sound levels of even the hottest rounds through rifles such as my 10.5" SBR to a level low enough to eliminate the need for hearing protection. The only true way to appreciate the effects is in person. Shoot without the can, and then with it. It's a difference that can't be reproduced by watching a video. Just last week I tested a 5" suppressor 1 3/4" thick for the 5.56x45 rifles. Mounted on my 10.5 SBR, and using full powered M855 SS109 rounds, the suppressor lower the sound level almost equal to a loud handclap. No need for plugs, and it performed just as well in full auto. If used in action, sure you can still hear it easily from your firing position, but if your target is several hundred meters away, even if those close by hear the shot, they'll never be able to identify where it came from because the explosion is now just a crack.

Part of the problem is that sub sonic loads tend to use a heavier/longer projectile. That may require a different twist in rifling.

Sounds like in the above, you are getting a sonic crack.

Problem with Rifle rounds is that the cases generally have too much volume for the amount of powder required to make a sub sonic round. Insufficient powder load for case volume is very dangerous.

Pistols may naturally have sub sonic rounds, like the 147 Gr 9 mm.

For rifles, what I have seen is smaller case is used. Using say, a 7.62 x 39 would work, but rifles normally chambered in that caliber requires a lighter bullet.


Another aspect is one has to take into the account the round does not have as flat a trajectory as a normal rifle round. Range estimation is much more critical.


From what I have read hear and experience one of the biggest advantage of a suppressor is, it helps prevents hearing loss.

tinmanHRSO
06-15-2008, 04:06
Most people have the idea that suppressors are ineffective unless the noise is reduced to almost zero. What they don't consider is the fact that if the noies is dampened to the level of a loud handclap and a human target is engaged from more than 150-200 yds, the bullet impact is usually alot louder than the shot itself. And for others who may be in locations left or right of the shot trajectory who do hear the shot, it's rendered so faint that direction cannot be identified.

Not to mention the fact that using subsonic ammunition severely limits your range of effectiveness. A whisper quiet subsonic .308 has an effective range of only 150 yds! Using full power rounds, having the shots a bit louder at the shooting end puts you back on the 1000 yd lethal shot market.

Then there's nothing that eliminates muzzle flash like a sound suppressor. Especially when using the 5.56 which has a very high flash temp at around 1900 F.

I had the privelage of shooting several suppressed rifles and handguns just yesterday morning 06/15/08 at the test range located at the main HQ for a major suppressor manufacturer here in Texas. I won't mention which one so this won't sound like an advertisement! lol

The effectiveness of these suppressors when machined properly with titanium instead of heavy steel which is prone to deformation was amazing. Shooting full powered .308,.338 Laupa, and even .50BMG without any hearing protection and zero ear ringing, lol. Shooting steel was really strange because the bullet impacting the targets were much louder than the actual gunfire. No subsonics were ever used at all. Also, at this private firing range, the actual firing line is less than 150 yds from a major interstate road. Not one noise or gunfire compaint has ever been made in 3 years.

Of course, the firing line is positioned behind the storefront with shooters aiming away from the road and into a dirt berm for safety, but it was 50BMG being fired too!!! Some of the pics are below