View Full Version : SFSC pre-shoot
longrange1947
02-13-2008, 17:02
Guys - Make sure that the students coming to our school can shoot. We have a very simple pre-shoot that must be passed to get in. It is simply three of five, five round groups within 1.25 inches, outside to outside at 25 meters. We have new M4s with BUIS s for this shoot and we test the weapons first to insure it can be done and not the weapon screwing up.
Don't get the boot because you can't group. You would be surprised at the number that have lost basic marksmanship skills.
Justinmd
02-13-2008, 20:42
What is SFSC exactly? Is that what used to be SOTIC? I heard some things like that were going on over there.
Justin
longrange1947
02-14-2008, 05:22
Special Operations Target Interdiction Course (SOTIC) became the Special Forces Sniper Course (SFSC) last year by order of the General.
LR1947,
Thanks for the posting. One guy on my team failed the initial shoot last year. He didn't know anything about it until three days prior. I am sending a guy this year and we have a range on our compound so he can work on this while we are deployed. A couple of questions for you:
Are the BUIS the issue top rail, or an aftermarket flip-up sight?
Are they shooting prone?
Supported or unsupported?
Time standard for the 5 shots?
Regular green tip 5.56?
Any part of this you can reveal would be great. I will get this guy on the range and get him prepared.
If it makes anyone feel any better, to earn the Rifle Shooting merit badge, a Boy Scout has to shoot five groups of five rounds each within a 1.125" circle at 50 feet with a .22 rifle.
longrange1947
02-15-2008, 07:00
Axeman - The position is prone supported on a sandbag and the BUIS is the issue ones we use at SFAR. The time limit eludes me right now. It is plenty of time to fire the rounds. Keep track of where you fire the rounds as we have guys the shoot four and six sometimes as they forget what they are doing (attention to detail). The rounds do not have to be on the aim point only a group, we do not care where that group is located. We use the "zero target silhouette" as the aim point. Ammunition is green tip but will use 77gr when we have it.
Main thing is that the shooter has the basic marksmanship ability to group his weapon.
Razor - That reinforces what we are saying, to shoot expert, you must be able to shoot a tight group. They all have paperwork claiming expert, we are just having them "show us". :D :munchin
Psywar1-0
02-15-2008, 10:31
This thread made me to measure the zero circle on a M16A2 zero target, which is 1 5/8s outside to outside measured on the Horizontal center line, and just slighty larger Vertical.
Im going to suggest that the FTU folks do this exercise as an opening to the DM course they teach. Makes a whole lot of sense to do this, instead of just scoring in the top (95%?) on the M4 qual.
Now its off to the range, Thanks for giving me something to do other than eat a greasy burger at lunch:D
Dragbag036
05-09-2008, 17:00
Looks like the shoot is starting to get around. we had an 84% pass rate:lifter. Now if the guys could only realize that its a school to learn a skill and trade craft, not so the instructor can be your friend. Our purpose is to give the QP the necessary skill to kill in combat from long distance as well as various other techniques that we teach in the course now. Any who... I think the CoC is getting the point now, make sure your guys truly are suited for the job, not just because he has down time to waste.
thats just my .02 cents
cowboykpy
05-19-2008, 14:45
The one thing other instructors and I joked about at the Guard Sniper School was you figured out pretty quick who pencil whipped their rifle qual when it takes a class of 25 two hours to zero an M24.
It wasn't a Guard specific problem either. We had plenty of AD guys come through with multiple deployments under their belt who'd lost some of the basic fundamentals.
We'd end up spending the entire first week on the range reteaching things students should have already been doing, while trying to teach them how to shoot movers.
Unfortunately, we didn't have the time or resources to implement an M4 zero and qual to the POI or get Benning to add it when I worked there.
Thanks for the info Longrange. PM inbound.
Special Operations Target Interdiction Course (SOTIC) became the Special Forces Sniper Course (SFSC) last year by order of the General.
Thats a travesty:mad:
longrange1947
05-19-2008, 17:22
Should have heard me, Dragbag can attest to my comments on the "change". Not really very polite. :munchin :D
Psywar1-0
05-19-2008, 20:09
Should have heard me, Dragbag can attest to my comments on the "change". Not really very polite. :munchin :D
But your soon to have a new general right? So it can change back......:D
Longrange1947 - I guess our SOTIC coins are collectors items! Did you get a SFSC coin made yet?
I need to come by sometime, let me know on a PM when it is a good time for me to stop by your office.
longrange1947
05-20-2008, 16:57
Yep, got a new SFSC coin a while back, just kept the numbering going from the last SOTIC coin.
PM heading your way.
LR,
Any changes to the pre-shoot? I'm sending a guy in the Jan class, I want to make sure he's good to go for the pre-shoot.
longrange1947
11-03-2009, 22:06
No changes. Same thing, prone sandbag, five groups, etc.
frostfire
11-05-2009, 14:04
Guys - Make sure that the students coming to our school can shoot. We have a very simple pre-shoot that must be passed to get in. It is simply three of five, five round groups within 1.25 inches, outside to outside at 25 meters. We have new M4s with BUIS s for this shoot and we test the weapons first to insure it can be done and not the weapon screwing up.
Don't get the boot because you can't group. You would be surprised at the number that have lost basic marksmanship skills.
Master Rick,
I thought of using PM, but figured that anyone who'd like to augment their marksmanship or coaching skills can benefit as well.
When you say lost, do you mean forget or just ingrain bad habits?
I'd presume that without routine dry fire & grouping, doing reflex fire, machine guns, high caliber firearms, CQB, usw. at close to moderate distance can mask and ingrain bad habits (bucking, flinching, jerking, usw.). Multiplied over time and thousands of rounds, these habits then become semi permanent.
One of the struggle I had in coaching was trying to come from the students perspective. When the firearm, positions (esp. prone supported), and the shooter's understanding of the terminology & instructions were good to go, what more could/should be done other than just following the two basic fundamentals as Master Gene Econ had always emphasized. Align sights, squeeze straight. FWIW, if I may toot my own horn, the groups below were my 4th and 5th group from starting out (mk262, Rock River Match, 20rds, 100yds, ~5mph wind, prone unsupported). Considering what the rifle-ammo was capable of, they're still lousy groups) I would never consider myself good/prodigious, etc. Yes, thousands of dry fire and I read & conceptualized a lot, but I merely followed the basic instructions. I'd even dare to say that it has got to be easy and if I can do it, anyone can. One of my joy (ego aside) was to have a student outshoot me. When I couldn't even bring them to my level, I must confess it was rather frustrating although I kept it in the back of my head (just like in ER, I learned the folks can pick up emotional cue and let it affect them)
Thank you for the education.
longrange1947
11-05-2009, 20:50
Frostfire - Had lunch with Gene Econ today and have known him since he was a very young 2d Lt. We talked about all sorts of shooting and fun stuff. :)
I say lost because many shooters have lost their skills just as you described. The bad habits are ingrained and they can be hard to break. We give a class on marksmanship prior to the shoot in. We do it as a refresher and to try and get the guys heads in the game.
The guys have been shooting on big targets that they only care about a hit not where they hit. We have to bring them to the point of where they care. If they really want to be in the course, they will find a way to practice and get help to shoot the required accuracy to get in. Unfortunately, too many units fill the slot with a shout down the hall and zero prep is made or allowed.
The SGMs then get the ass because the guys come back and they want us to make an exception to let their guys in. My answer to them is; "Well hell SGM, if you had done your job and the Team Daddy had done his then your man would be in the course, do not expect us to clean up your screw up". We will still get calls with SGMs incensed over the fact that we kicked them out on day one even though the requirements are well known. I rank it with the guys showing up without the required paperwork. Again, Team Daddy not doing his job and the training NCO not doing his job, and PAC not doing the job and last but definitely not least, the guy not doing his job.
Crap guys, research what is required, make a check list, check it at least twice, call the school, but if you show up without the paperwork, you will not even get a chance to shoot in.
Frostfire, sorry, answered your question and then went on a rant.
LR,
With the amount of guys who fail the pre-shoot, what's the procedure for the guys who show up as a walk on? Does the priority go to the guys who are stationed at Bragg?
longrange1947
11-05-2009, 23:32
LR,
With the amount of guys who fail the pre-shoot, what's the procedure for the guys who show up as a walk on? Does the priority go to the guys who are stationed at Bragg?
No, we go straightg down the list that comes in from USASFC and then down the list of walk ons. We take the top 32 shooters period. Once all the hard slotted guys have either passed or failed, we then start on the others.
No, we go straightg down the list that comes in from USASFC and then down the list of walk ons. We take the top 32 shooters period. Once all the hard slotted guys have either passed or failed, we then start on the others.
How does one get on the USASFC list (do you mean ATRRS? If so then I understand this part) and on the walk on list?
longrange1947
11-06-2009, 07:19
How does one get on the USASFC list (do you mean ATRRS? If so then I understand this part) and on the walk on list?
There is an ATRRS list of hard slots, your unit can place individuals on the USASFC standby list. It is the first standby list we use.
And before anyone asks, I have no idea how to get on it. but I bet there are those on here that do. :D
frostfire
11-06-2009, 11:45
Frostfire - Had lunch with Gene Econ today and have known him since he was a very young 2d Lt. We talked about all sorts of shooting and fun stuff. :)
Master Rick,
glad to hear. If I ever cross your AO or you and Major Econ cross mine, the promise/offer of all-you-can-drink-in-1-hr hefeweizen or other Deutsches Bier still stands :)
LongWire
11-06-2009, 20:15
Yep, got a new SFSC coin a while back, just kept the numbering going from the last SOTIC coin.
PM heading your way.
Rick, are there any of the old coins hiding down there somewhere?
longrange1947
11-06-2009, 20:16
All of the old SOTIC coins are gone.
Buffalobob
12-14-2009, 11:36
How long is the course?
If a guy was in "holding company" and doing not much of anything except raking leaves and waiting for his next course to begin how would he go about getting a slot? Or maybe the better question is would it be possible to get a slot?
Another question is it restricted to only certain MOSs?
He might have a few bad habits being as I trained him. He'd probably need to use target faces that had antlers on them :D
Peregrino
12-14-2009, 12:45
How long is the course?
If a guy was in "holding company" and doing not much of anything except raking leaves and waiting for his next course to begin how would he go about getting a slot? Or maybe the better question is would it be possible to get a slot?
Another question is it restricted to only certain MOSs?
He might have a few bad habits being as I trained him. He'd probably need to use target faces that had antlers on them :D
Short answer from the USASFC(A) perspective - he can't. It is MOS and unit of assignment restricted and he has to be on the standby list. My shop attends every inprocessing (usually my SGM) and there would be hell to pay if a slot wasn't properly allocated. If he's still in SWCS there might be work-arounds but I wouldn't bet on it (especially not with guys on teams that need the training - that hell to pay thing again). YMMV
As Rick has said, the game is groups. Guys going to the course need to be able to call their shots. If they call the first shot "high-right", the next 4 should be "high-right" so they are clustered together.
MVP
longrange1947
12-14-2009, 18:15
Peregrino is partially correct. First he MUST be assigned to a Group or Ranger Batt, if in casual he is screwed. MOS is not a big deal. We take all the 18 series to include 18A and 180A even if they do suck at shooting and can argumentative. We fully support the 11B Ranger and SMUs regardless of MOS. :D
The procedure of selection is this. I have ATRRS access and get the final final ATRRS list that morning at 0600. This is th e list we call from, I really can care what your unit said, the list is the list. No you can not come there and tell us that you are taking so and sos place on the list. That is when Peregino's SGM goes off on us. Once your name has been called we will check all your paperwork, if you are deficient in required paperwork you will go home. Ask a couple of guys form the last class. Show up with everything. If you are on ATRRS then you will receive an email form me the week before the course. If you get on the list after that date you will NOT receive an email as I can not go through the dam list everyday to find who has changed as units love to do that little trick. That is why I pull the final list that morning and yes there are changes from Friday. Once we have gone through the ATRRS list we go through the SGM's standby list same requirements. We then go through the walk ons. If you are a walk on you will have to have all the paperwork at that time. If there are doubts as to what is required then go to the SWC hompage, SWTG, 2d Bn, Co D, and you will see a post of all the paperwork, equipment, etc you need to have on day one.
Now that we have you together, we will take you all down to the range and give you a "refresher" on how to shoot. The ATTRS guys will shoot first and will be graded, those that don't make the cut will be replaced by those that do form first the SGM's list and then the walk ons.
Do not ask to see your target, do not argue and play poochy lip and for Goodness sake DO NOT lie to your SGM and give him some song and dance about how you really did make it but us big bad MFs didn't let you in. Your target goes to the USASFC SGM and your a** may be on the block, ask a couple of guys.
Learn to group and shoot consistently. You only have to shoot a group that is small enough to insure a Sharpshooters badge, your command has stated that you are an Expert, don't piss them off. :munchin
Guys, I added this URL from ATTRS. Do not just click on the pre-requisites button for the course. Scroll down until you come to the SFSC specific info. The PRe-req button only gives part of hte picture, the rest fo the story is down near the bottom of this page.
https://atrrs.army.mil/atrrscc/courseInfo.aspx?fy=2010&sch=331&crs=2E-F67%2f011-ASIW3&crstitle=SPECIAL+FORCES+SNIPER&phase=
SF Sniper Course is para 17. For you guys going to other SWC schools a bunch of the info for those schools are on that page as well. ;)
Good luck guys!
Buffalobob
12-14-2009, 21:14
Peregrino
usually my SGM
If you see the SGM tomorrow ask if he will add my name to the list . :D I assume that this is who you are talking about---- http://www.soc.mil/swcs/swmag/08May.pdf page 30 - Shooters and Thinkers.
Lt James R Collier
E Recon 2/1 ---DMZ and Quang Tri
If I get down to Bragg again I will come early and stop by and see him.