Sniper 'baiting"

[brianksain]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070924/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_snipers

[Team Sergeant]

"They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070924/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_snipers

That sums it up nicely for me. These three morons with nothing to do make up a "classified mission" and go hunting.

Brian,

"Operational" classified missions are not usually assigned to conventional E-4's, E-5's and E-6's. I give these guys stories about a -50 on a scale of 1-100. Want to bet not one of the three even had a Secret clearance....... :rolleyes:

They may fool the general public but it ani't going to cut it with me.

TS

[82ndtrooper]

Am I missing something here ? How are these guy's "Ranger Sniper Platoons" with the 501st Airborne ? :confused:

[Razor]

Probably the same way Dave Grossman is a "ranger" (and makes it well known, at that); they went to the school, and earned a Ranger tab, but never served a day in the 75th Regiment, or the battalions in the pre-regiment days. IMO, the correct term would be "ranger qualified", but I guess you do what you gotta do to feel good about yourself.

[tom kelly]

I guess we can be thankful that these guys were on the ground in Iraq and not at the controls of Trident missle launch panel on an Ohio Class sub somewhere in the deep Pacific....

[Ret10Echo]

U.S. snipers accused of 'baiting' Iraqis By PAULINE JELINEK and ROBERT BURNS, Associated Press Writers

Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, and then kill whoever picked up the items, according to the defense attorney for a soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed. Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said Monday his client had acted "pursuant to orders."

"We believe that our client has done nothing more than he was instructed to do by superiors," Myers said in a telephone interview.

Myers and Vela's father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.

The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists.

"To prevent the enemy from learning about our tactics, techniques and training procedures, we don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman.

Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.

The transcript of a court hearing for two of the three accused snipers makes several references to the existence of a classified "baiting" program but provides few details of how it works. A copy of the transcript was provided to The Associated Press by Vela's father.

The Washington Post, which first reported the existence of the "baiting" program, cited the sworn statement of Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon.

"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."

The Post said the program was devised by the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, which advises commanders on more effective methods in today's unconventional conflicts, including ways to combat roadside bombs.

Within months of the "baiting" program's introduction, three snipers in Didier's platoon were charged with murder for allegedly using those items and others to make shootings seem legitimate, according to the Post.

The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.

The court martial of one of the accused soldiers, Spec. Jorge Sandoval Jr., is scheduled to begin in Baghdad on Wednesday. Also facing premeditated murder charges are Vela and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley.

They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_IRAQ_SNIPERS?SITE=FLPEJ&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[glebo]

Why does the army, or some units specifically, mess it up for everyone?? I personaly think this is a little overkill, no pun intended. But this isn't gonna help our cause if things like this are instituted. Granted, I'm not there, but this doesn't seem to be in the program of "winning the hearts and minds".

Those people could have just as well picking up that stuff and going to turn it in. Am I naive maybe, but how can one tell someones intentions ? Maybe there's more (I'm sure) information we dont know about. But to cap someone just because they picked something up just dont seem right.

Sometimes, I think we're our own worst enemies.

[uboat509]

I don't really see the value in this. I doubt that you are going to get in leaders or any IED builders with this. That means you are either killing low level (expendable) nugs or guys who think that they can sell this stuff to the bad guys. I doubt that it is making a hell of a lot of difference.

SFC W

[NousDefionsDoc]

The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.

;)

[brianksain]

Shooting the right people ... for the right reasons ... will always be the shooter's dilemma.

Personally ... at the end of the day's sniping ... I gotta be able to sleep with myself.

Not taking sides here, as the article provides limited info as always.

I know the tactics have been used succesfully by sniper units of all types/branches but I try hard not to judge snipers until I have looked through the man's reticle and seen for myself what he saw ... and felt what he felt ... under HIS same circumstances when he saw and felt it.

Putting the smack down on an IED emplacer ... however low level he may be ... seems like good business to me.

As long as it is pretty well confirmed that is what he is/was doing.

But that's just me.

Sometimes you just can't shoot.

Right or wrong ... seems to me they are trying to make examples of these guys.

[kgoerz]

Am I missing something here ? How are these guy's "Ranger Sniper Platoons" with the 501st Airborne ? :confused:

The 82nd had them for awhile. They were Brigade recon Platoons. Most of the people in them were Sniper Qualified. Everyone was a Ranger Graduate or had to attend Ranger School while there. Thus the name.

I guess we can be thankful that these guys were on the ground in Iraq and not at the controls of Trident missile launch panel on an Ohio Class sub somewhere in the deep Pacific....

Tell me about it. All that Warrior Spirate and initiative to kill the Enemy. Could of been wasted on a submarine. Personally I think they should be getting a Medal for it. Hearts and minds were lost a long time ago when we decided to drop 500lb Bombs in populated Areas.
Maybe they read Lone Survivor and decided living and Killing the Enemy was more important then worrying about going to jail. Especially when your in heavy Combat and the charges could be Murder. I never knew that fear of prosecution played such a large part in the outcome, until I read the Book.
I can not believe how many people have been charged for Murder in this War. We really are going to it................lose another one at the hands of the politicians and Media. Yes we won every enemy engagement again:rolleyes: unbelievable.

[longrange1947]

Uh, wrong type of baiting. Nuff said.

[brianksain]

Uh, wrong type of baiting. Nuff said.

Uh ... ya kill me.:D

[sf11b_p]

U.S. sniper gets 5 months - AP

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21045750/

[The Reaper]

U.S. sniper gets 5 months - AP

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21045750/

Yeah, I got to get me some of that "detonation wire".:rolleyes:

Do you think that the MSM needs military speaking proofreaders and editors?

I wonder why they can even get a simple article like this one right.

TR

[GreenSalsa]

I wonder why they can even get a simple article like this one right.

Because those that KNOW won't work with the media that print stories like this.

[sf11b_p]

Yeah, I got to get me some of that "detonation wire".:rolleyes:

Do you think that the MSM needs military speaking proofreaders and editors?

I wonder why they can even get a simple article like this one right.

TR

I think it's incredible they can recognize U.S. military uniforms, some of the time.

Maj. (Ret) Plaster was on CNN today with two others speaking of this incident. Basically he said he doubted the full story is known, that operational items are classified and for good reason.