Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > At Ease > The Early Bird

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-24-2007, 19:07   #1
brianksain
Guerrilla
 
brianksain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 169
Heckuva way to fight a war ...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070924/...s_iraq_snipers
__________________
"The police exist to protect the innocent, not grant latitude to the guilty. One cannot negotiate ... with evil"

Last edited by brianksain; 09-24-2007 at 19:22.
brianksain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2007, 19:41   #2
Team Sergeant
Quiet Professional
 
Team Sergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
"They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070924/...s_iraq_snipers

That sums it up nicely for me. These three morons with nothing to do make up a "classified mission" and go hunting.

Brian,

"Operational" classified missions are not usually assigned to conventional E-4's, E-5's and E-6's. I give these guys stories about a -50 on a scale of 1-100. Want to bet not one of the three even had a Secret clearance.......

They may fool the general public but it ani't going to cut it with me.

TS
__________________
"The Spartans do not ask how many are the enemy, but where they are."
Team Sergeant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2007, 19:54   #3
82ndtrooper
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,189
Am I missing something here ? How are these guy's "Ranger Sniper Platoons" with the 501st Airborne ?
82ndtrooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2007, 22:29   #4
Razor
Quiet Professional
 
Razor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,533
Probably the same way Dave Grossman is a "ranger" (and makes it well known, at that); they went to the school, and earned a Ranger tab, but never served a day in the 75th Regiment, or the battalions in the pre-regiment days. IMO, the correct term would be "ranger qualified", but I guess you do what you gotta do to feel good about yourself.
Razor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 03:57   #5
tom kelly
Quiet Professional
 
tom kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Philadelphia,Pa.
Posts: 1,490
Snipers

I guess we can be thankful that these guys were on the ground in Iraq and not at the controls of Trident missle launch panel on an Ohio Class sub somewhere in the deep Pacific....
tom kelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 04:49   #6
Ret10Echo
Quiet Professional
 
Ret10Echo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Occupied America....
Posts: 4,740
Sniper 'baiting"

U.S. snipers accused of 'baiting' Iraqis By PAULINE JELINEK and ROBERT BURNS, Associated Press Writers

Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, and then kill whoever picked up the items, according to the defense attorney for a soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed. Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said Monday his client had acted "pursuant to orders."

"We believe that our client has done nothing more than he was instructed to do by superiors," Myers said in a telephone interview.

Myers and Vela's father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.

The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists.

"To prevent the enemy from learning about our tactics, techniques and training procedures, we don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman.

Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.

The transcript of a court hearing for two of the three accused snipers makes several references to the existence of a classified "baiting" program but provides few details of how it works. A copy of the transcript was provided to The Associated Press by Vela's father.

The Washington Post, which first reported the existence of the "baiting" program, cited the sworn statement of Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon.

"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."

The Post said the program was devised by the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, which advises commanders on more effective methods in today's unconventional conflicts, including ways to combat roadside bombs.

Within months of the "baiting" program's introduction, three snipers in Didier's platoon were charged with murder for allegedly using those items and others to make shootings seem legitimate, according to the Post.

The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.

The court martial of one of the accused soldiers, Spec. Jorge Sandoval Jr., is scheduled to begin in Baghdad on Wednesday. Also facing premeditated murder charges are Vela and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley.

They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT
__________________
"There are more instances of the abridgment of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations"

James Madison
Ret10Echo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:30   #7
glebo
Quiet Professional
 
glebo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hope Mills, NC
Posts: 2,819
Sniper baiting

Why does the army, or some units specifically, mess it up for everyone?? I personaly think this is a little overkill, no pun intended. But this isn't gonna help our cause if things like this are instituted. Granted, I'm not there, but this doesn't seem to be in the program of "winning the hearts and minds".

Those people could have just as well picking up that stuff and going to turn it in. Am I naive maybe, but how can one tell someones intentions ? Maybe there's more (I'm sure) information we dont know about. But to cap someone just because they picked something up just dont seem right.

Sometimes, I think we're our own worst enemies.
__________________
Out of all the places I've been, this is one of'em....
You haven't lived...until you've almost died...
glebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:44   #8
uboat509
Quiet Professional
 
uboat509's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: CO
Posts: 333
I don't really see the value in this. I doubt that you are going to get in leaders or any IED builders with this. That means you are either killing low level (expendable) nugs or guys who think that they can sell this stuff to the bad guys. I doubt that it is making a hell of a lot of difference.

SFC W
uboat509 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:50   #9
NousDefionsDoc
Quiet Professional
 
NousDefionsDoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
Quote:
The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
NousDefionsDoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 11:09   #10
brianksain
Guerrilla
 
brianksain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 169
Shooting the right people ... for the right reasons ... will always be the shooter's dilemma.

Personally ... at the end of the day's sniping ... I gotta be able to sleep with myself.

Not taking sides here, as the article provides limited info as always.

I know the tactics have been used succesfully by sniper units of all types/branches but I try hard not to judge snipers until I have looked through the man's reticle and seen for myself what he saw ... and felt what he felt ... under HIS same circumstances when he saw and felt it.

Putting the smack down on an IED emplacer ... however low level he may be ... seems like good business to me.

As long as it is pretty well confirmed that is what he is/was doing.

But that's just me.

Sometimes you just can't shoot.

Right or wrong ... seems to me they are trying to make examples of these guys.
__________________
"The police exist to protect the innocent, not grant latitude to the guilty. One cannot negotiate ... with evil"

Last edited by brianksain; 09-26-2007 at 11:17.
brianksain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 14:47   #11
kgoerz
Quiet Professional
 
kgoerz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NC for now
Posts: 2,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper View Post
Am I missing something here ? How are these guy's "Ranger Sniper Platoons" with the 501st Airborne ?
The 82nd had them for awhile. They were Brigade recon Platoons. Most of the people in them were Sniper Qualified. Everyone was a Ranger Graduate or had to attend Ranger School while there. Thus the name.

Quote:
I guess we can be thankful that these guys were on the ground in Iraq and not at the controls of Trident missile launch panel on an Ohio Class sub somewhere in the deep Pacific....
Tell me about it. All that Warrior Spirate and initiative to kill the Enemy. Could of been wasted on a submarine. Personally I think they should be getting a Medal for it. Hearts and minds were lost a long time ago when we decided to drop 500lb Bombs in populated Areas.
Maybe they read Lone Survivor and decided living and Killing the Enemy was more important then worrying about going to jail. Especially when your in heavy Combat and the charges could be Murder. I never knew that fear of prosecution played such a large part in the outcome, until I read the Book.
I can not believe how many people have been charged for Murder in this War. We really are going to it................lose another one at the hands of the politicians and Media. Yes we won every enemy engagement again unbelievable.
__________________
Sounds like a s#*t sandwhich, but I'll fight anyone, I'm in.
kgoerz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 20:54   #12
longrange1947
Quiet Professional
 
longrange1947's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Fayetteville NC
Posts: 3,533
Uh, wrong type of baiting. Nuff said.
__________________
Hold Hard guys

Rick B.

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing it is great on a hamburger but not so great sticking one up your ass.

Author - Richard.

Experience is what you get right after you need it.

Author unknown.
longrange1947 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 21:11   #13
brianksain
Guerrilla
 
brianksain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by longrange1947 View Post
Uh, wrong type of baiting. Nuff said.
Uh ... ya kill me.
__________________
"The police exist to protect the innocent, not grant latitude to the guilty. One cannot negotiate ... with evil"
brianksain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2007, 10:55   #14
sf11b_p
Guerrilla
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 428
U.S. sniper gets 5 months - AP

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21045750/
sf11b_p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2007, 11:53   #15
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by sf11b_p View Post
U.S. sniper gets 5 months - AP

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21045750/
Yeah, I got to get me some of that "detonation wire".

Do you think that the MSM needs military speaking proofreaders and editors?

I wonder why they can even get a simple article like this one right.

TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 14:30.



Copyright 2004-2022 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies