View Full Version : General May Be Demoted Over Tillman Death
I just read about this on MSNBC, and wondered what everyone thought about this. I think it is a very sad thing what happened to this family, and if anyone knowingly provided false information, they should be held accountable.
Not taking anything away from Corporal Tillman, I firmly believe he is a true patriot, and I admire him. I am heartbroken for his family, and I believe they deserve to know what happened. But if this would have been any other Corporal in the Army, would it have gotten this far, and would that family have the same means to voice their anger?
General may be demoted over Tillman
Army secretary expected to advise reprimands for five others as well
The Associated Press
Updated: 11:32 a.m. CT July 26, 2007
WASHINGTON - Army Secretary Peter Geren is expected to recommend that a retired three-star general be demoted for his role in providing misleading information about the death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman, military officials say, in what would be a stinging and rare rebuke.
Lt. Gen. Philip Kensinger, who headed Army special operations, is one of six high-ranking Army officers expected to get official reprimands for making critical errors in reporting the circumstances of Tillman’s friendly-fire shooting in Afghanistan in April 2004.
The officials requested anonymity because the punishments under consideration by Geren have not been made public. The Army said that no final decisions have been made, and that once they are and the Tillman family and Congress have been notified, there will be an announcement sometime next week.
Geren also is considering issuing a letter of censure to Kensinger, who is receiving the harshest punishment of those involved in what has become a three-year controversy that triggered more than half a dozen investigations. Five other officers, including three generals, are expected to be issued less severe letters criticizing their actions.
Army officials opted not to impose harsher punishments, which could have included additional demotions, dishonorable discharges or even jail time. One senior officer, Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, commander of the Joint Special Operations Command, escaped punishment.
Tillman’s death received worldwide attention because he had walked away from a huge contract with the National Football League’s Arizona Cardinals to enlist in the Army after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
'Not satisfied' response
Tillman’s mother, Mary, said the impending punishments were inadequate.
“I’m not satisfied with any of it,” she said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.
She rejected the Pentagon’s characterization of the officers’ offenses as “errors” in reporting Tillman’s death, when several officers have said they had made conscious decisions not to tell Tillman’s family that friendly fire was suspected.
Geren’s pending decisions come four months after two investigative reports found that Army officers provided misleading and inaccurate information about Tillman’s death. A central issue in the case has been why the Army waited about five weeks after it suspected the former NFL star’s death was caused by friendly fire before telling his family.
The probes found that nine officers — including four generals — were at fault in providing the bad information and should be held accountable. But the reports determined that there was no criminal wrongdoing in the actual shooting, and that there was no deliberate cover-up.
Geren then tapped Gen. William Wallace to review the probes and recommend disciplinary actions. Wallace disagreed with initial findings against McChrystal, according to the military officials.
But Wallace also surprised Army officials by singling out a 10th officer for rebuke — one who had not been blamed in the earlier reports.
Brig. Gen. Gina Farrisee, who is director of military personnel management at the Pentagon, is expected to receive a letter of punishment for her involvement in the oversight of the awarding of Tillman’s Silver Star.
Two others who were blamed in earlier reports are also expected to receive letters of admonishment: Brig. Gen. Gary Jones, who led one of the early Army investigations into the matter, and now-Brig. Gen. James C. Nixon, who was Tillman’s regimental commander.
Jones, now retired from the Army, was faulted for failing to address several issues in his probe, leading to speculation that Army officials were concealing information about Tillman’s death.
Nixon was criticized for failing to ensure that Tillman’s family was told.
It is no surprise that Kensinger, 60, is targeted for the most severe punishment. An investigation by the Defense Department’s inspector general found “compelling evidence that Kensinger learned of suspected fratricide well before the memorial service and provided misleading testimony” on that issue. That misrepresentation, the report said, could constitute a “false official statement,” a violation of the Military Code of Justice.
Farrisee’s rebuke is tied to the Army recommendations that Tillman receive the Silver Star. The investigations found that Army officials were aware that Tillman was likely killed by friendly fire even as they were moving ahead with the medal that was awarded for heroism in the face of the enemy.
If Geren does recommend to Defense Secretary Robert Gates that Kensinger lose a star and be demoted to major general, that would trigger a decrease in his retirement pension and benefits.
The letters of rebuke for the others could also be crippling blows. They can include letters of concern, reprimand or censure, with escalating degrees of gravity.
“For officers generally, a reprimand is a devastating career injury,” said Eugene Fidell, a lawyer who specializes in military cases and teaches at American University’s Washington College of Law. “It can trigger an effort to throw the person out of the military, it can trigger a reduction in pay grade when the time comes to retire, it can prevent a future promotion, and it can gum up a promotion that has already been decided.”
For a one-star general, Fidell said, it could mean they are likely to never get a second star. And, he said, a lower level officer, such as a captain, “would have to dig out of a deep hole to continue his or her career. Letters of reprimand are truly bad news.”
© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19975042/
It's real easy to armchair quarterback battlefield decisions when you're not there.
The leadership only had the best intentions. Try reading the investigation and ask yourself if you would not do what COL Craig Nixon did. His superiors also did what they thought was the right thing to do at the time. Leadership is hard work and sometimes you make mistakes.
MoonAngel
07-26-2007, 18:59
It's real easy to armchair quarterback battlefield decisions when you're not there.
+1
True, but lying is no way to lead any thing or one. He committed an unforgivable sin, HE LIED.
True, but lying is no way to lead any thing or one. He committed an unforgivable sin, HE LIED.
"He" who?
Have you formed your judgment on media reports? How much do you know what really happened?
Team Sergeant
07-26-2007, 19:37
"He" who?
Have you formed your judgment on media reports? How much do you know what really happened?
Frog you might be surprised at how much some of us know on this board....;) Or just who is behind a certain screen-names.....
Just an FYI
Team Sergeant
The Reaper
07-26-2007, 19:58
I know LTG K, and he does not strike me as a liar.
In fact, he had a promising career, and it looked like we might actually get a guy into the CG's chair at SOCOM who had actually done a full tour on an ODA in the last 30 years, until this. I suspected when he retired that this was the cause, and he was forced into it. Is that not a significant cost?
This appears to me to be the case of the family of a famous casualty being able to get the pols to put pressure on military to sacrifice a few people to soothe their souls.
The real question is, what punishment did the soldier who killed Tillman get, the person who ordered the firing, the leadership who directed the PL to split his element and move separately, and the person who filed the initial reports that it was an enemy contact?
Who gave LTG K the facts, and when? I do not believe that he got a report that said Tillman was killed by friendly fire, and said, "Well, we can't tell the family that, let's make something heroic up, quick!" IMHO, he got bad info, written at the lowest level by someone who was there and knew better, and passed it on to the family. The real question is when he found out the truth, and what do you do then, if you have already told the family the wrong info? Walk up to them during the service and go, "Oops, we have a little mistake here. Let me take that undeserved medal off your son's body and tell you what stupidity really killed him."
I do not have all of the facts, but I will give the General the benefit of the doubt till I see them.
TR
CPTAUSRET
07-26-2007, 20:01
I know LTG K, and he does not strike me as a liar.
This appears to me to be the case of the family of a famous casualty being able to get the pols to put pressure on military to sacrifice a few people to soothe their souls.
The real question is, what punishment did the soldier who killed Tillman get, the person who ordered the firing, the leadership who directed the PL to split his element and move separately, and the person who filed the initial reports that it was an enemy contact?
Who gave LTG K the facts, and when?
I do not have all of the facts, but I will give the General the benefit of the doubt till I see them.
TR
CONCUR!
It's real easy to armchair quarterback battlefield decisions when you're not there.
The leadership only had the best intentions. Try reading the investigation and ask yourself if you would not do what COL Craig Nixon did. His superiors also did what they thought was the right thing to do at the time. Leadership is hard work and sometimes you make mistakes.
I am not trying to armchair quaterback anything, and I have read the investigation thank you very much. My question was asked because I do not know any of the individuals that were involved, and I knew some of the folks here would, and would be able to provide some insight as to these men's characters.
From what I read there were several individuals that knowingly provided false information not only to the family but to investigators as well. I never said the General was one of those people. And I am sure that nothing was done with malice in anyone's heart, and I certainly don't believe the press when they said the government was trying to make Tillman's death look better in the public eye. But put yourself in that families position. They have been told their son died a hero's death trying to protect his team mates, and if in the short term that is what was thought to have happened, so be it, and I accept the fact that in the fog of war, usually the first report is not the full story. BUT AFTER THE FACT they looked that mother in the eyes and lied.
I can accept telling the mother that the situation surrounding his death can not be released for security purposes. I certainly agree that everyone doesn't have the right to know everything that happened in a military operation. She and the media may not have been happy with that answer, but by knowingly lying to her??? Even if it was with good intentions??? How would you feel if that was your son, or your brother. Obviously Tillman's brother DOESN"T feel the way you do.
I feel as Reaper does that this got a heck of a lot of press because of who Tillman was, and heads had to roll or the press would never be satisfied. If this had been anyone else, I am sure it would have been taken care of in house. Unfortunately, that is not the world we live in anymore.
When the media gets involved, I tend to go in the opposite direction. Maybe a knee jerk reaction or I just don't trust the media.
As it has been mentioned, not all the facts are in. To add to this, it is a very emotional complex situation.
We had a young Marine, David Shelton from Washington, D.C. He received his first purple heart in August and was back in the bush in September. He was KIAed by a command detonated booby trap. The company decided to put him in for a Silver Star, or hopefully downgraded to a Bronze w/V would be the least.
Why? Was he a hero. No, maybe? He volunteered to walk point. He was not experience enough to do so, or he might not have been KIAed. For his mother, his only NOK. she would get a flag and his purple heart. For a mother who gave her son to our country, it was felt we should do more. Was it a lie. I don't think so. Was it the absolute facts of the situation? No.
This is my thoughts when I read about this. A man served his country, gave up a very promising career, and was KIAed. Medals don't mean anything to him, he can not brag about some battle, but for his family is such a small compensation for such a great loss.
I wish the media would just try once to do the right thing.
I wish the media would just try once to do the right thing.
I just finished reading "Lone Survivor", and one of the things besides the absolute awe I felt for all those individuals, that struck me was the fact that these four men were actually placed in a situation, where instead of thinking about their well being, and the mission, they were forced to actually think about what the media would do if they every got wind of what was going on.
How the heck can we fight a war, when our troops, always in the back of their minds are going to be second guessing evey move for fear of what some asshole reporter back home is going to think, or report. Had this type of reporting been going on during the revolutonary war, we would still be under British rule, IMO.
The Washington Post had some additonal material HERE (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/26/AR2007072602025.html) .
one-zero
07-27-2007, 06:07
nmap > "The Washington Post had some additonal material HERE ."
Ref the WASH POST: This is like sitting in a bar listening to the local skinny and going out and reporting it as news...there are some truths in there, but not the important ones, and what is reported is so skewed as to be worthless.
This is part of the American fad of keeping drama going, as in high profile court cases and to inflame emotion. Of course any damage to certain political parties that may be gained are considered a plus.
Note that they are going to 'question Bush administration officials' in DC...that's what you call military folks now for political gain. Forget they serve under any administration regardless of party. The DC portion is not aimed one iota at getting to the truth of the situation and media will drag it out as long as possible.
Goggles Pizano
07-27-2007, 06:49
How the heck can we fight a war, when our troops, always in the back of their minds are going to be second guessing evey move for fear of what some asshole reporter back home is going to think, or report.
That is a very good question. It is a situation policemen across this country face daily. The answer is you trust your judgement and make a decision that you believe to be the correct one then complete the mission. Stand up for your decision during debrief. Fallout will come regardless.
All the MSM is now reporting that it is more than likely that Tillman was "fragged", due to the fact that the medical examiner found the three bullet holes in his forehead very unusual. Mrs. Tillman has also voiced her opinion that she believes her son was murdered.
This is a story that is never going to die, until the the MSM can lay this in the lap of the POTUS, and use it as another means to call for impeachment. God help us all.
The Reaper
07-27-2007, 08:43
All the MSM is now reporting that it is more than likely that Tillman was "fragged", due to the fact that the medical examiner found the three bullet holes in his forehead very unusual. Mrs. Tillman has also voiced her opinion that she believes her son was murdered.
This is a story that is never going to die, until the the MSM can lay this in the lap of the POTUS, and use it as another means to call for impeachment. God help us all.
It was a tight 3 round shot group to the forehead, and the physician found that unusual.
Could have been shots were fired closer than expected, could be the Ranger who shot him was a really good shooter (minus the target ID), or it could have been luck.
I don't see Rangers deliberately killing one another by shooting them in the head in a suspected enemy contact. They know who the shooter was and which weapon it was. Too many other, less obvious ways to deliberately off someone.
I do not think that given the fog of war in that situation, CSI or advanced forensics are going to do anything other than agitate the family and cause more grief.
The bereaved mother is looking for many pounds of flesh and pain to be extracted to soothe her soul, and it sounds like she is getting advice from some people with less than honorable intent.
TR
JAGeorgia
07-27-2007, 09:04
What if this were my son instead if Tillman (and I speak only for myself)?
Always tell me the truth as you know it, based upon the information you have at the time. I'm an adult and realize information may be inaccurate. Not all information is 'fact' and neither are opinions. If information is later determined to not be true this does not mean that a lie was told unless the information was provided with the intention to deceive.
Were this my son (member here) I would be devastated. I have always been and ever will be proud. I love him deeply and say it often. I would not be inclined to drag his death out. It would not bring him back nor help me heal.
IF lies were/are told, that is a personal failure that reveals a serious character flaw. I am supremely confident that QPs will take action without the help of the "press".
LongWire
07-27-2007, 09:04
An unfortunate chain of events, without a doubt, somebody got lied to, but I'm sure at this point we will never have the whole story........and is it a big surprise that a Retired General Officer gets a Demotion? I think not, his retirement pay wont suffer so it's a moot point as far as thats concerned.
Its just a sad affair all together, Bad for Pat and Family. Bad for one of the Best Organizations in the Army. This wont die soon, and Every-time someone else dies from fratricide, This event will be brought up in comparison.
All a Damn shame, and more fodder for the MSM.
CPTAUSRET
07-27-2007, 09:51
1966, near Moc Hoa:
I was flying a B-model gunship flat out, low level, firing at a treeline with several concealed crewserved weapons, I was firing rockets and 4 M-60's, returning all the firepower we had...We were receiving heavy fire, and I was closer to the target than I should have been. I received two bullets through my right forearm, they were approx 1 1/2 inches apart, we were doing 80 plus knots at the time; so three bullets to the forehead does not make me think of fragging! That's BUGFUCK!
As a Mod I should censure myself, but this endless speculation, disses on the Rangers he served with, his entire chain of command, and it frankly pisses me off!
One-zero-->"there are some truths in there, but not the important ones, and what is reported is so skewed as to be worthless."
Yes, Sir. For that very reason, I hesitated to post it - and only did so after I noticed that the story was replicated in a variety of other spots according to Google News. I also abstained from commenting, since I don't know the facts - whereas I'm confident some here do.
But a story, even if skewed and filled with nonsense, tells something about the author - and the audience, too. That, in turn, may suggest some trends.
One-zero-->"Note that they are going to 'question Bush administration officials' in DC...that's what you call military folks now for political gain. "
That's something I hadn't noticed. Thank you for pointing it out!
I guess my view is that there is something more than creating entertainment for the masses and a few political points. But I do have a bad habit of making things too complex.
All the MSM is now reporting that it is more than likely that Tillman was "fragged", due to the fact that the medical examiner found the three bullet holes in his forehead very unusual. Mrs. Tillman has also voiced her opinion that she believes her son was murdered.
The MSM is simply exacerbating the situation. IIRC Kevin Tillman is the one who originally brought up the opinion it was intentional...
True, but lying is no way to lead any thing or one. He committed an unforgivable sin, HE LIED.
From what I have read there was no lying involved. One of the Generals, perhaps Kissinger, said he had waited for the proper time to notify the family. He may have been wrong but IMO his heart was in the rightplace.
I'm glad I was just a SSG at the time. I destroyed some personal letters of a friend rather than have them sent to his wife.
A quote from Flash Dance - I think: "Go home and sit in judgement of yourselves.":(
Retired General Officer gets a Demotion? I think not, his retirement pay wont suffer so it's a moot point as far as thats concerned.
I read someplace that his pay will also be reduced by $1,000.00 a month.
Monsoon65
07-27-2007, 14:09
The MSM will drag this out for as long as they get "good" press out of it. It makes Bush, the US Military, and the Rangers look bad. That's "good" news for them.
Once they get their use out of them, they'll dump the Tillman family by the side of the road.
I've always wondered what would be said if something like Operation Cobra happened now instead of during WW2 in Normandy.
LongWire
07-27-2007, 16:05
I read someplace that his pay will also be reduced by $1,000.00 a month.
I'm not a JAG, and someone help me out here, But I think that once retired, you earn your retirement of your highest paygrade. They might have to pull some strings to drop his retirement, but will they?
Neither for or against this action, I wont sit in judgement on this. I'd be surprised if the press actually followed the story to that end. I'm sure they think that all the news is in on that.
The Reaper
07-27-2007, 16:30
I'm not a JAG, and someone help me out here, But I think that once retired, you earn your retirement of your highest paygrade. They might have to pull some strings to drop his retirement, but will they?
Neither for or against this action, I wont sit in judgement on this. I'd be surprised if the press actually followed the story to that end. I'm sure they think that all the news is in on that.
I believe that is the highest grade you served in honorably, or some words to that effect.
TR
Well I have known LTG Kensinger (Prince Philip) since he was a just a young buck. He was always straight and true and conducting a cover-up is just not in his nature. There must be other things that we have not heard of. I understand the mothers pain but she is looking for heads more than just the truth.
There is more out there and it will come out in the future. LTG Kensinger has always severed honorably so they can not touch him. Politics are at play and he may be the scape goat like other Honorable members of our force have been in the past.
In my opinion, I have seen more guessing, conjecture and judgement on this subject in the past two days than from all of TV and press reporting. Everything from fragging to Tillman disobeying orders.
There was an interview of the squad on cable TV sometime back. CRS but may have been on the NG chan nel. This interview impressed me. The squad members talked and acted lkike we used to do after an operation gone bad -- lo tone and to the point. If U haven't seen it do so if you get a chance. I believe these men - many are no longer in the service.
Tilman's convoy was through but the second was pinned down in a steep draw taking fire from both sides. They needed help and Tilman took some men to attempt to lay supressing fire. God help us if any of y'all would hunker down waiting for fire support while watching your buddies get cut to pieces.:mad:
Let me add this:
Lt. Gen. Philip Kensinger, who headed Army special operations, is one of six high-ranking Army officers expected to get official reprimands for making critical errors in reporting the circumstances of Tillman’s friendly-fire shooting in Afghanistan in April 2004.
Would someone point out where he is accused of lying or covering up?
The Reaper
07-27-2007, 17:53
Terry:
Not looking to add more fuel to the fire, but that sounds a lot like the cover story that was eventually blown.
What happened to Tillman is not my concern and is irrelevant to me, beyond the fact that he was killed by friendly fire.
My point is, that I know LTG K and have for many years. I have seen him in good times and bad times, and I have never known him to lie or to do anything inappropriate.
The real issue is the false initial report, the timing of the real story coming out, and the cover up, if any that ensued. The accusation is that LTG K knew Tillman was killed by fratricide before the memorial, but went through with the ruse that it was enemy contact. Essentially, that he lied to the family. BG Jones, who was another good SF soldier, was involved in the initial investigation into the death. He must have been accused of something similar. Both men retired in 2005 or so, before they had been expected to.
A couple of good SF men have had their careers terminated early and are now having their reputations ruined, and for what purpose? To cover up for the actions of a Ranger platoon? I don't buy it.
TR
Perhaps UR correct T.R. My point is all of the conjecture, guess work and just plain poo poo del toro I see today. I don't know if there was a cover up and it is water under the bridge. Why can't they let it pass?
It may have been Kessinger who said he was waiting for the proper time. That was an error in judgment but how do you knock on the door and tell a mother her son was killed by accident? Thank god I never carried that weight on my shoulders.
The Reaper
07-27-2007, 18:40
Perhaps UR correct T.R. My point is all of the conjecture, guess work and just plain poo poo del toro I see today. I don't know if there was a cover up and it is water under the bridge. Why can't they let it pass?
It may have been Kessinger who said he was waiting for the proper time. That was an error in judgment but how do you knock on the door and tell a mother her son was killed by accident? Thank god I never carried that weight on my shoulders.
Exactly.
The real question is how do you tell the mother that, when you have already told her that son died fighting valiantly against the enemy, and he isn't even in the ground yet?
No matter how bad the situation is that you are reporting, lying about it to the boss is probably not going to make it any better.
Just do the right thing, report the facts, and if he wants to make up another story, let him do that on his own.
Whatever happened to Rogers’ Rangers Standing Orders #4? "Tell the truth about what you see and what you do. There is an army depending on us for correct information. You can lie all you please when you tell other folks about the Rangers, but don't ever lie to a Ranger or an officer."
TR
For the naysayers.. riddle me this. How do two outstanding Special Forces General Officers get nailed to the cross for a Ranger/JSOC incident that turned tragic?
Latest reports are that LTG Kensinger will lose a star, and be censured. That's important - Google it (here, let me help -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censure
It's also reported that MG Mike Jones will receive a letter of reprimand. LTG Kensinger is a West Point grad who spent 35 years living up to the creed that he learned as a young man - "Duty, Honor, Country". MG Jones is a ROTC grad, but a superior SF officer who the majority in out community would follow into battle in .02 nanoseconds.
How anyone could question the loyalty, integrity, and honor that these two Special Forces officers have shown in 60+ years of combined service, is beyond me..
Or maybe not.
As the poster above pointed out - it's ALL about politics. Any way that the MSM and Dems can tie this mess to the Bush administration is a feather in their hat.
The whole thing stinks.. and it pisses me off. SF will feel the rath of this for years to come - even though SF wasn't on the ground when the incident took place.
For the naysayers.. riddle me this. How do two outstanding Special Forces General Officers get nailed to the cross for a Ranger/JSOC incident that turned tragic?
Latest reports are that LTG Kensinger will lose a star, and be censured. That's important - Google it (here, let me help -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censure
It's also reported that MG Mike Jones will receive a letter of reprimand. LTG Kensinger is a West Point grad who spent 35 years living up to the creed that he learned as a young man - "Duty, Honor, Country". MG Jones is a ROTC grad, but a superior SF officer who the majority in out community would follow into battle in .02 nanoseconds.
How anyone could question the loyalty, integrity, and honor that these two Special Forces officers have shown in 60+ years of combined service, is beyond me..
Or maybe not.
As the poster above pointed out - it's ALL about politics. Any way that the MSM and Dems can tie this mess to the Bush administration is a feather in their hat.
The whole thing stinks.. and it pisses me off. SF will feel the rath of this for years to come - even though SF wasn't on the ground when the incident took place.
Let's not read too much into this. Neither General, IIRC was acting in the capacity of a Special Forces Officer. In as much as the Rangers come under JSOC it is proper that SOF officers conduct the investigation. - I theeeenk!
The Reaper
07-29-2007, 18:00
Let's not read too much into this. Neither General, IIRC was acting in the capacity of a Special Forces Officer. In as much as the Rangers come under JSOC it is proper that SOF officers conduct the investigation. - I theeeenk!
In this case, the Rangers were under USASOC, hence the involvement by the USASOC CG and investigation by the USASFC CG.
Unfortunately, the only people to get punished seriously by the system were the two SF GOs involved.
Again, I wonder who signed the first false after action report, knowing that it was a lie?
TR
In this case, the Rangers were under USASOC, hence the involvement by the USASOC CG and investigation by the USASFC CG.
Unfortunately, the only people to get punished seriously by the system were the two SF GOs involved.
Again, I wonder who signed the first false after action report, knowing that it was a lie?
TRI
'm still neutral on this one. It seems someone get screwed. There were times that the injuns paid and everyone asked why the chiefs slide and this time it seems to be the opposite.
PERHAPS, those at the top accepted responsibility rather than pass the buck. If so they are better men than the others.
This is an honest question. How many GO's wear the SF patch on the left shooulder? The last I knew it was zero.
The Reaper
07-29-2007, 18:24
The USASFC CG, who in this case, was the investigating officer wears the SF patch.
TR
nmap > "The Washington Post had some additonal material HERE ."
Ref the WASH POST: This is like sitting in a bar listening to the local skinny and going out and reporting it as news...there are some truths in there, but not the important ones, and what is reported is so skewed as to be worthless.
My unit and I were massacred in early 1970 when an RVN unit overran the small jump firebase that we had been called in to secure. The Washington Post reported it.
Reading of the event, we all felt rather bad that we hadn't noticed. :rolleyes:
This is an honest question. How many GO's wear the SF patch on the left shooulder? The last I knew it was zero.
If the last you knew was zero, you've been outta the net for a long time, mate. Having said that, I can understand why you're still on the fence about two SF GO's getting hammered in a politically driven event.
There's actually a shitload of 'em. Currently on active duty:
CG, USASFC(A) (MG Csrnko) / COMSOCCENT (MG Mulholland) / COMSOCSOUTH (BG Cleveland) / COMSOCPAC (MG Cambria) / COMSOCAFRICOM (BG Higgins) / SOCOM CSO (LTG Fridovich) / Incoming COMSOCEUR (BG Repass) / CG & DCG SWCS (MG Parker / BG Pagan) - those are just the quickies I can pull outta my ass. I'm sure there are more. Anyone care to help..?
If the last you knew was zero, you've been outta the net for a long time, mate. Having said that, I can understand why you're still on the fence about two SF GO's getting hammered in a politically driven event.
There's actually a shitload of 'em. Currently on active duty:
CG, USASFC(A) (MG Csrnko) / COMSOCCENT (MG Mulholland) / COMSOCSOUTH (BG Cleveland) / COMSOCPAC (MG Cambria) / COMSOCAFRICOM (BG Higgins) / SOCOM CSO (LTG Fridovich) / Incoming COMSOCEUR (BG Repass) / CG & DCG SWCS (MG Parker / BG Pagan) - those are just the quickies I can pull outta my ass. I'm sure there are more. Anyone care to help..?
SOGvet your are fast. I just finished putting the list together also. I can not believe he did not know that SF is commanded by SF. USASOC and USSOCOM can be up in the air but from USASFC(A) down you are only commanded by SF Officers.:lifter
The Reaper
07-30-2007, 07:42
Of all the SF GOs you just named guys, the only one of them who "wears the SF patch on his left shoulder" is the USASFC CG, MG Csrnko. Look at the question again.
TR
If the last you knew was zero, you've been outta the net for a long time, mate. Having said that, I can understand why you're still on the fence about two SF GO's getting hammered in a politically driven event.
There's actually a shitload of 'em. Currently on active duty:
CG, USASFC(A) (MG Csrnko) / COMSOCCENT (MG Mulholland) / COMSOCSOUTH (BG Cleveland) / COMSOCPAC (MG Cambria) / COMSOCAFRICOM (BG Higgins) / SOCOM CSO (LTG Fridovich) / Incoming COMSOCEUR (BG Repass) / CG & DCG SWCS (MG Parker / BG Pagan) - those are just the quickies I can pull outta my ass. I'm sure there are more. Anyone care to help..?
Darn. I would think that a SOG VET would remember that our CG was actually the CG USAJFKCENSPWAR and wore the flaming piss pot as did Gen Yarborough. I was thinking that today there is one like TR said.
To List all GO's who are SF qualified may be slightly easier than listing all who are airborne qualified. Especially those who may have been company grade in the seventies before SF became a branch.
It almost seems we are making the same mistake as we accuse civilians of: confusing SOF with SF. I believe there is only one SF Command.
Peregrino
07-30-2007, 08:51
Darn. CG USAJFKCENSPWAR
Ummmm - I think it was USAJFKSWCS last week. Of course I might be behind the times too. :p Peregrino
Ummmm - I think it was USAJFKSWCS last week. Of course I might be behind the times too. :p Peregrino
When I was in SFTG theCenter HQ was on Gruber Road in what became the Service Club IIRC. It was simply the US Army Center for Military Assistance (CMA). The JFK moniker and promotion of Col Yarborough to BG came about when new HQ building was built.
Quiting before the hijack po-lice come.:D
Of all the SF GOs you just named guys, the only one of them who "wears the SF patch on his left shoulder" is the USASFC CG, MG Csrnko. Look at the question again.
TR
T-, All the SF GOs in the list above wear a long tab over their unit of assignment patch. What am I missing?
TR
Me to, I am confused:confused:
The Left is still the unit of assingment. I know they keep changing uniforms lately but that has not changed.
Right shoulder is combat and Left is unit.
CG, USASFC(A) (MG Csrnko) - Served with him
COMSOCCENT (MG Mulholland) - Served with him
COMSOCSOUTH (BG Cleveland)
COMSOCPAC (MG Cambria) - Served with him
COMSOCAFRICOM (BG Higgins) - On his first Team
SOCOM CSO (LTG Fridovich) - Know him
(BG Repass)
CG & DCG SWCS (MG Parker / BG Pagan) - served with both of them
AM I still missing the point also? They all are SFQC Grads and wear the Long Tab.
T-, All the SF GOs in the list above wear a long tab over their unit of assignment patch. What am I missing?
I/m not TR but the Tab is authorized to be worn from unit to unit. It may be be withdrawn for cause by proper authority.
My previous point was that there are many SF qualified GO's but only one actually assigned to an SF command. There may be one or two within his staff but that is something I don't know.
Example: If you were to be assigned to an Infantry Division you could wear the Tab. If you did something to dishonor or embarrass SF the Tab could be withdrawn.
The Ranger Tab is also worn on the left regardless of unit of assignment. Another is "The President's 100" the Sapper taband there may be others this old horse has forgotten.
The Reaper
08-02-2007, 07:49
T-, All the SF GOs in the list above wear a long tab over their unit of assignment patch. What am I missing?
He said "patch" not Tab, amigo.
As in how many GOs are actually assigned to a Special Forces unit.
I think you definitely have the answer to that question.
Good to see you on here again, BTW.
Don't let Terry get your BP up, he lives to argue.:D
TR
uboat509
08-02-2007, 07:52
For what it's worth, if I get killed by friendly fire I would prefer that my family, especially my children, not know. I am their hero and I think that it would add even more pain to the fact of my death.
SFC W
Don't let Terry get your BP up, he lives to argue.
Not this time.:D
I posted the info in a General Diiscussion thread.
As for the original subject of this thread it looks like a Memo may take the buck right to the oval office. I would believe Kessinger was doing the biding of higher. Either way we can see the results of lying.
For what it's worth, if I get killed by friendly fire I would prefer that my family, especially my children, not know. I am their hero and I think that it would add even more pain to the fact of my death.
SFC W
I would rather be told "we can't tell you what happened" then be lied to. If you can't tell me the whole story - just tell me you are sorry it happened and that he served his country.
I'm trying my hardest to not form an opinion on who-done-it on this one since the family clearly has an agenda that the MSM is fueling so it's hard to see anything clearly. It's all very sad though because I'm 100% certain this isn't how Tillman himself would have wanted this to go down. I'm pretty sure he'd have wanted his death to be a quiet, simple affair.
.... It was simply the US Army Center for Military Assistance (CMA). ....
The USAJFKCMA/IMA days when diplomas only had USAJFKCENMA on the top of them. Then there were the days of USAJFK Institute of Military Assistance. SWCS is so - so- well, "New":D
Pete
SWCS is so - so- well, "New":D Pete
...or.. perhaps it's you (and me, and a few more of us in here) that are so old.. :cool:
My previous point was that there are many SF qualified GO's but only one actually assigned to an SF command. There may be one or two within his staff but that is something I don't know.
Actually, we have two - we also have a Deputy Commanding General - a one star.
As I have always said the Political and Press side of things are not always correct. Here is a Fayetteville article today with info to fill in some of the facts that the Politicians have been playing with.
http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=269636
General wants board meeting
By Henry Cuningham
Military editor
ADVERTISEMENT
Kensinger
Retired Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr. wants to appear before the Army board considering whether to reduce him in rank for his actions after Cpl. Pat Tillman died, his lawyer said.
“They have accused him of lying,” said lawyer Charles W. Gittins in a telephone interview. “Therefore, his credibility is key to this determination. You cannot assess credibility without seeing the person in person.
“Anybody who knows Gen. Kensinger knows that he would not intentionally lie to investigators. He is not that kind of guy.”
Kensinger has received the harshest public reprimand of anyone associated with the death of the former NFL star on April 22, 2004, in Afghanistan in what military officials describe as a friendly-fire death.
Army officials are “throwing Gen. Kensinger under the bus and saying, ‘He’s the bad guy,’” Gittins said.
Gittins, 50, of Middletown, Va., has defended people in some of the military’s most high-profile cases. He represented Gene McKinney, a former sergeant major of the Army who was accused of sexual harassment. He also defended Marine 2nd Lt. Ilario Pantano, who was cleared in 2005 at Camp Lejeune of murder in the deaths of two Iraqi civilians in April 2004.
Army Secretary Pete Geren announced on July 31 that he was censuring the retired three-star general and referred him to an Army Grade Determination Review Board to determine the highest rank at which he “served satisfactorily.”
“Unless this is just to be a meaningless rubber-stamp exercise, we believe that he needs to be heard in person by the board so they can judge whether or not he is telling the truth when he says he told the truth to the investigators,” Gittins said.
Kensinger has until Aug. 22 to present information for the board’s consideration. An Army spokesman at the Pentagon declined a request by The Fayetteville Observer to name the three four-star generals on the board.
Gittins said he and his client do not know who the board members are either.
“We’ve asked for that piece of information so that we don’t go soliciting requests for character statements from members of the board,” Gittins said.
Kensinger was commanding general of Fort Bragg’s U.S. Army Special Operations Command when Tillman died. In that job, he was senior leader in the “administrative chain of command” for the 75th Ranger Regiment, to which Tillman belonged.
Geren, the Army’s senior civilian official, said Kensinger made false official statements and deceived investigators about what he knew and when he knew it. Kensinger’s statements “played no role in the key events and misunderstandings and misinformation immediately following Corporal Tillman’s death,” Geren said.
Kensinger did not attend a hearing Aug. 1 by the House Oversight Committee into what military leaders knew about the death.
“He had a business meeting that was previously scheduled,” Gittins said. “We informed the committee two weeks before. If they really wanted to have his testimony, they could have taken his deposition, but they didn’t consider to do that.”
U.S. Marshals tried three times to deliver a subpoena, a committee spokeswoman said.
“They went to his house,” Gittins said. “He wasn’t at his house. I told the committee members that he would not be at his house. Traveling. They are fully aware of that.”
Much of the criticism has centered around the military’s failure to notify the Tillman family immediately that the military was investigating possible fratricide in his death.
“People who understand the military know some commander who hasn’t convened the investigation is not going to go report on what the findings might be for an investigation that has not yet been completed,” Gittins said.
Officials say the Army changed its policy to require commanders to notify next-of-kin immediately of friendly-fire investigations rather than wait.
Gittins said ignorance of the changed regulation was widespread and most military officers probably would have been inclined to wait.
“Commanders are smart people,” Gittins said. “They are not going to go off half-cocked without having the investigation. They are not going to report to the family that it was fratricide and then find out that at the last minute the investigating officer changed his mind because he found one more piece of evidence.”
Congressional officials at the hearing said seven investigations have resulted in more questions than answers.
Gittins said he believes the military investigations have been one-sided and “basically come to the conclusion that the investigator usually is biased to achieve in the first place.” He would like to see a “court of inquiry” with three officers on a panel, everyone represented by a lawyer and witnesses being cross-examined.
“The Navy uses them all the time,” he said. “They tend to get to the bottom of (it) and get to the ground truth.”
Kensinger was “flabbergasted” when he learned of his censure by hearing the secretary of the Army talk about it on television at a press conference. A letter arrived nine days later.
“He wouldn’t treat a private like that,” Gittins said. “He would give them the courtesy of a personal meeting.”