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Old 07-26-2007, 16:03   #1
afchic
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General May Be Demoted Over Tillman Death

I just read about this on MSNBC, and wondered what everyone thought about this. I think it is a very sad thing what happened to this family, and if anyone knowingly provided false information, they should be held accountable.

Not taking anything away from Corporal Tillman, I firmly believe he is a true patriot, and I admire him. I am heartbroken for his family, and I believe they deserve to know what happened. But if this would have been any other Corporal in the Army, would it have gotten this far, and would that family have the same means to voice their anger?

General may be demoted over Tillman
Army secretary expected to advise reprimands for five others as well
The Associated Press
Updated: 11:32 a.m. CT July 26, 2007
WASHINGTON - Army Secretary Peter Geren is expected to recommend that a retired three-star general be demoted for his role in providing misleading information about the death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman, military officials say, in what would be a stinging and rare rebuke.

Lt. Gen. Philip Kensinger, who headed Army special operations, is one of six high-ranking Army officers expected to get official reprimands for making critical errors in reporting the circumstances of Tillman’s friendly-fire shooting in Afghanistan in April 2004.

The officials requested anonymity because the punishments under consideration by Geren have not been made public. The Army said that no final decisions have been made, and that once they are and the Tillman family and Congress have been notified, there will be an announcement sometime next week.

Geren also is considering issuing a letter of censure to Kensinger, who is receiving the harshest punishment of those involved in what has become a three-year controversy that triggered more than half a dozen investigations. Five other officers, including three generals, are expected to be issued less severe letters criticizing their actions.

Army officials opted not to impose harsher punishments, which could have included additional demotions, dishonorable discharges or even jail time. One senior officer, Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, commander of the Joint Special Operations Command, escaped punishment.

Tillman’s death received worldwide attention because he had walked away from a huge contract with the National Football League’s Arizona Cardinals to enlist in the Army after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

'Not satisfied' response
Tillman’s mother, Mary, said the impending punishments were inadequate.

“I’m not satisfied with any of it,” she said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

She rejected the Pentagon’s characterization of the officers’ offenses as “errors” in reporting Tillman’s death, when several officers have said they had made conscious decisions not to tell Tillman’s family that friendly fire was suspected.

Geren’s pending decisions come four months after two investigative reports found that Army officers provided misleading and inaccurate information about Tillman’s death. A central issue in the case has been why the Army waited about five weeks after it suspected the former NFL star’s death was caused by friendly fire before telling his family.

The probes found that nine officers — including four generals — were at fault in providing the bad information and should be held accountable. But the reports determined that there was no criminal wrongdoing in the actual shooting, and that there was no deliberate cover-up.

Geren then tapped Gen. William Wallace to review the probes and recommend disciplinary actions. Wallace disagreed with initial findings against McChrystal, according to the military officials.


But Wallace also surprised Army officials by singling out a 10th officer for rebuke — one who had not been blamed in the earlier reports.

Brig. Gen. Gina Farrisee, who is director of military personnel management at the Pentagon, is expected to receive a letter of punishment for her involvement in the oversight of the awarding of Tillman’s Silver Star.

Two others who were blamed in earlier reports are also expected to receive letters of admonishment: Brig. Gen. Gary Jones, who led one of the early Army investigations into the matter, and now-Brig. Gen. James C. Nixon, who was Tillman’s regimental commander.

Jones, now retired from the Army, was faulted for failing to address several issues in his probe, leading to speculation that Army officials were concealing information about Tillman’s death.

Nixon was criticized for failing to ensure that Tillman’s family was told.

It is no surprise that Kensinger, 60, is targeted for the most severe punishment. An investigation by the Defense Department’s inspector general found “compelling evidence that Kensinger learned of suspected fratricide well before the memorial service and provided misleading testimony” on that issue. That misrepresentation, the report said, could constitute a “false official statement,” a violation of the Military Code of Justice.

Farrisee’s rebuke is tied to the Army recommendations that Tillman receive the Silver Star. The investigations found that Army officials were aware that Tillman was likely killed by friendly fire even as they were moving ahead with the medal that was awarded for heroism in the face of the enemy.

If Geren does recommend to Defense Secretary Robert Gates that Kensinger lose a star and be demoted to major general, that would trigger a decrease in his retirement pension and benefits.

The letters of rebuke for the others could also be crippling blows. They can include letters of concern, reprimand or censure, with escalating degrees of gravity.

“For officers generally, a reprimand is a devastating career injury,” said Eugene Fidell, a lawyer who specializes in military cases and teaches at American University’s Washington College of Law. “It can trigger an effort to throw the person out of the military, it can trigger a reduction in pay grade when the time comes to retire, it can prevent a future promotion, and it can gum up a promotion that has already been decided.”

For a one-star general, Fidell said, it could mean they are likely to never get a second star. And, he said, a lower level officer, such as a captain, “would have to dig out of a deep hole to continue his or her career. Letters of reprimand are truly bad news.”


© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19975042/
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Old 07-26-2007, 18:29   #2
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It's real easy to armchair quarterback battlefield decisions when you're not there.
The leadership only had the best intentions. Try reading the investigation and ask yourself if you would not do what COL Craig Nixon did. His superiors also did what they thought was the right thing to do at the time. Leadership is hard work and sometimes you make mistakes.
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Old 07-26-2007, 18:59   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frog
It's real easy to armchair quarterback battlefield decisions when you're not there.
+1
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Old 07-26-2007, 19:03   #4
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True, but lying is no way to lead any thing or one. He committed an unforgivable sin, HE LIED.
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Old 07-26-2007, 19:31   #5
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Originally Posted by bubba
True, but lying is no way to lead any thing or one. He committed an unforgivable sin, HE LIED.
"He" who?

Have you formed your judgment on media reports? How much do you know what really happened?
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Old 07-26-2007, 19:37   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frog
"He" who?

Have you formed your judgment on media reports? How much do you know what really happened?

Frog you might be surprised at how much some of us know on this board.... Or just who is behind a certain screen-names.....

Just an FYI

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Old 07-26-2007, 19:58   #7
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I know LTG K, and he does not strike me as a liar.

In fact, he had a promising career, and it looked like we might actually get a guy into the CG's chair at SOCOM who had actually done a full tour on an ODA in the last 30 years, until this. I suspected when he retired that this was the cause, and he was forced into it. Is that not a significant cost?

This appears to me to be the case of the family of a famous casualty being able to get the pols to put pressure on military to sacrifice a few people to soothe their souls.

The real question is, what punishment did the soldier who killed Tillman get, the person who ordered the firing, the leadership who directed the PL to split his element and move separately, and the person who filed the initial reports that it was an enemy contact?

Who gave LTG K the facts, and when? I do not believe that he got a report that said Tillman was killed by friendly fire, and said, "Well, we can't tell the family that, let's make something heroic up, quick!" IMHO, he got bad info, written at the lowest level by someone who was there and knew better, and passed it on to the family. The real question is when he found out the truth, and what do you do then, if you have already told the family the wrong info? Walk up to them during the service and go, "Oops, we have a little mistake here. Let me take that undeserved medal off your son's body and tell you what stupidity really killed him."

I do not have all of the facts, but I will give the General the benefit of the doubt till I see them.

TR
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Old 07-26-2007, 20:01   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
I know LTG K, and he does not strike me as a liar.

This appears to me to be the case of the family of a famous casualty being able to get the pols to put pressure on military to sacrifice a few people to soothe their souls.

The real question is, what punishment did the soldier who killed Tillman get, the person who ordered the firing, the leadership who directed the PL to split his element and move separately, and the person who filed the initial reports that it was an enemy contact?

Who gave LTG K the facts, and when?

I do not have all of the facts, but I will give the General the benefit of the doubt till I see them.

TR

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Old 07-26-2007, 20:02   #9
afchic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frog
It's real easy to armchair quarterback battlefield decisions when you're not there.
The leadership only had the best intentions. Try reading the investigation and ask yourself if you would not do what COL Craig Nixon did. His superiors also did what they thought was the right thing to do at the time. Leadership is hard work and sometimes you make mistakes.

I am not trying to armchair quaterback anything, and I have read the investigation thank you very much. My question was asked because I do not know any of the individuals that were involved, and I knew some of the folks here would, and would be able to provide some insight as to these men's characters.

From what I read there were several individuals that knowingly provided false information not only to the family but to investigators as well. I never said the General was one of those people. And I am sure that nothing was done with malice in anyone's heart, and I certainly don't believe the press when they said the government was trying to make Tillman's death look better in the public eye. But put yourself in that families position. They have been told their son died a hero's death trying to protect his team mates, and if in the short term that is what was thought to have happened, so be it, and I accept the fact that in the fog of war, usually the first report is not the full story. BUT AFTER THE FACT they looked that mother in the eyes and lied.

I can accept telling the mother that the situation surrounding his death can not be released for security purposes. I certainly agree that everyone doesn't have the right to know everything that happened in a military operation. She and the media may not have been happy with that answer, but by knowingly lying to her??? Even if it was with good intentions??? How would you feel if that was your son, or your brother. Obviously Tillman's brother DOESN"T feel the way you do.

I feel as Reaper does that this got a heck of a lot of press because of who Tillman was, and heads had to roll or the press would never be satisfied. If this had been anyone else, I am sure it would have been taken care of in house. Unfortunately, that is not the world we live in anymore.

Last edited by afchic; 07-26-2007 at 20:14.
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Old 07-26-2007, 20:20   #10
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When the media gets involved, I tend to go in the opposite direction. Maybe a knee jerk reaction or I just don't trust the media.

As it has been mentioned, not all the facts are in. To add to this, it is a very emotional complex situation.

We had a young Marine, David Shelton from Washington, D.C. He received his first purple heart in August and was back in the bush in September. He was KIAed by a command detonated booby trap. The company decided to put him in for a Silver Star, or hopefully downgraded to a Bronze w/V would be the least.

Why? Was he a hero. No, maybe? He volunteered to walk point. He was not experience enough to do so, or he might not have been KIAed. For his mother, his only NOK. she would get a flag and his purple heart. For a mother who gave her son to our country, it was felt we should do more. Was it a lie. I don't think so. Was it the absolute facts of the situation? No.

This is my thoughts when I read about this. A man served his country, gave up a very promising career, and was KIAed. Medals don't mean anything to him, he can not brag about some battle, but for his family is such a small compensation for such a great loss.

I wish the media would just try once to do the right thing.
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Old 07-26-2007, 20:32   #11
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Originally Posted by HOLLiS
I wish the media would just try once to do the right thing.
I just finished reading "Lone Survivor", and one of the things besides the absolute awe I felt for all those individuals, that struck me was the fact that these four men were actually placed in a situation, where instead of thinking about their well being, and the mission, they were forced to actually think about what the media would do if they every got wind of what was going on.

How the heck can we fight a war, when our troops, always in the back of their minds are going to be second guessing evey move for fear of what some asshole reporter back home is going to think, or report. Had this type of reporting been going on during the revolutonary war, we would still be under British rule, IMO.
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Old 07-26-2007, 21:36   #12
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The Washington Post had some additonal material HERE .
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:07   #13
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nmap > "The Washington Post had some additonal material HERE ."

Ref the WASH POST: This is like sitting in a bar listening to the local skinny and going out and reporting it as news...there are some truths in there, but not the important ones, and what is reported is so skewed as to be worthless.

This is part of the American fad of keeping drama going, as in high profile court cases and to inflame emotion. Of course any damage to certain political parties that may be gained are considered a plus.

Note that they are going to 'question Bush administration officials' in DC...that's what you call military folks now for political gain. Forget they serve under any administration regardless of party. The DC portion is not aimed one iota at getting to the truth of the situation and media will drag it out as long as possible.
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:49   #14
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Originally Posted by afchic
How the heck can we fight a war, when our troops, always in the back of their minds are going to be second guessing evey move for fear of what some asshole reporter back home is going to think, or report.
That is a very good question. It is a situation policemen across this country face daily. The answer is you trust your judgement and make a decision that you believe to be the correct one then complete the mission. Stand up for your decision during debrief. Fallout will come regardless.
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:25   #15
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Was Tillman Death Murder?

All the MSM is now reporting that it is more than likely that Tillman was "fragged", due to the fact that the medical examiner found the three bullet holes in his forehead very unusual. Mrs. Tillman has also voiced her opinion that she believes her son was murdered.

This is a story that is never going to die, until the the MSM can lay this in the lap of the POTUS, and use it as another means to call for impeachment. God help us all.
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