View Full Version : Stopping Power Myth
82ndtrooper
06-19-2007, 15:47
This particular individual has been posting over at Barret Rifles and 1911 Forums by posting these type of articles with a link to his websight. He currently holds basic pistol and carbine classes as well as a SERE class that cost upwards of $4,000 for a 3-4 day course.:munchin
I PM'd him to ask who his SERE instructors were and if they were graduates of the SWC SERE course. His reply was "If you'd like to vet your self with me then I'll explain who and where are training is being done. He claims 5 years with law enforcement and a laundry list of other qualifications such "ASP instuctor" etc, etc, etc, etc. Here's a decent article regarding "Stopping myth" however it's a bit dated. With all the available instuction for self defense courses from the the likes of Paul Howe and Larry Vickers is 5 years as an law enforcement officer really enough to be training military, law enforcement and civillians ?
I did not supply his link to his organization. If your interested the Google button is on the right side of the keypad.
By Tom Perroni
Edit/deleted by Team Sergeant, reason, it's bullshit and Tom is full of himself. 82Trooper, post a "copy and paste" link next time.
Kyobanim
06-19-2007, 16:52
I would think the type of round would be as much of a determining factor in this disscussion as placement or caliber. Just my 2 cents.
We all know the average number of rounds fired in a gunfight is 10 and that Law Enforcement has an 80% MISS rate meaning 2 in 10 rounds hit the subject so, as my dad put it, I just doubled my odds in a gunfight if I can shoot to stop the threat at the Head & Spine. 20 rounds = 4 hits instead of 2.
It appears that the supposed consensus regarding rounds fired in a gunfight does not exist. Using google on the phrase: "average rounds in a gunfight" resulted in a variety of returns, with claims of 3 rounds and 3.5 rounds among them.
I cannot help but wonder about the divergence between Mr. Perroni's statement and the others. And if such a fundamental claim is not well founded, the rest of his report might be questioned.
The Reaper
06-19-2007, 18:18
I guess stats are fine for the average shooter.
Most of his material seems to be borrowed from other instructors, and he seems to be arguing both sides of several points.
In the military, you will get no sexy expanding bullets, and no choice in firearms. All soldiers should be proficient with a Beretta M-9 and shoot till they drop. That may take an entire mag of 9mm Ball, since as noted, a pistol is not what you bring if you know you are going to a gunfight.
Two words: shot placement.
Having said that, my personal choice is to carry as much pistol as I can conceal, normally a high cap .45 ACP. I am a decent shooter, but shootings do not normally take place in broad daylight on a flat range with good footing, eye and ear pro, a marked target, a loaded weapon at the ready, and most importantly, no return fire, so I will take any edge I can get.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
Peregrino
06-19-2007, 19:01
Yes, he can string together an article using readilly available data and a "superglue" of personal opinion. So what? Personally I've seen all of the commercial instruction from individuals with LEO backgrounds I ever want to see. I'll stick with soldier skills and learn from/practice with other soldiers. My .02 - Peregrino
82ndtrooper, Only one of them is ex Mil. He was never in a position to go to SERE. With all of the four and six hour blocks of instructions they are listing. I believe if one of them was SERE Qualified. It would be listed in Bold Black letters for all to see.
More Tactical Instructors that have a laundry list of Qauls. Try breaking them down.
and has held positions ranging from Armed Security Officer= Security Guard
Alarm Respondent =Guard for a Wealthy Gated Community
former xxxxxxxxxx Police Officer with experience in investigations, surveillance and firearms training==== Isn't that like saying a former Fire Man trained to operate a Water Hose.
Simulation Safety Instructor===One time in Sims Camp.
I guess stats are fine for the average shooter.
TR
Most affirmative Sir, One can be 99% right but 100% dead.
I thought if one has no faith, they can always believe in stats.
Gene Econ
06-19-2007, 20:51
I PM'd him to ask who his SERE instructors were and if they were graduates of the SWC SERE course. His reply was "If you'd like to vet your self with me then I'll explain who and where are training is being done.
82nd Trooper:
Well, if someone told me that one I would take a dump (semi-solid) into a box and send it to the arrogant shit -- one turd to another so to speak.
OK now -- how many ways can you say "point the barrel into the target and move your finger without pointing the barrel somewhere else." ????
For combat shooting you add "point it real fast and move your finger real fast."
Advice? Let someone else pay this guy a couple of K to learn how to shoot someone at three feet distance. I don't see you as someone who would respond to such arrogance.
Now my techiques -- only available from me at a price of $2K per day -- is to fill a .45 magazine with lead to make the pistol weigh more and remove it from my SF approved kevlar holster by the barrel and either Tommahawk the assailant with the butt of the pistol or throw the pistol at the assailant using the Tommahawk stance and methodology.
Can you imagine a fellow getting smacked right between the running lights with a five pound M-1911? Brutal and probably against the Geneva Conventions. You would kill that guy deader than with a .25 Raven -- let me tell you.
Gene on M-1911 Chucking
82ndtrooper
06-19-2007, 23:48
82nd Trooper:
Well, if someone told me that one I would take a dump (semi-solid) into a box and send it to the arrogant shit -- one turd to another so to speak.
OK now -- how many ways can you say "point the barrel into the target and move your finger without pointing the barrel somewhere else." ????
For combat shooting you add "point it real fast and move your finger real fast."
Advice? Let someone else pay this guy a couple of K to learn how to shoot someone at three feet distance. I don't see you as someone who would respond to such arrogance.
Now my techiques -- only available from me at a price of $2K per day -- is to fill a .45 magazine with lead to make the pistol weigh more and remove it from my SF approved kevlar holster by the barrel and either Tommahawk the assailant with the butt of the pistol or throw the pistol at the assailant using the Tommahawk stance and methodology.
Can you imagine a fellow getting smacked right between the running lights with a five pound M-1911? Brutal and probably against the Geneva Conventions. You would kill that guy deader than with a .25 Raven -- let me tell you.
Gene on M-1911 Chucking
Mr. Econ:
Thanks for giving me a laugh, and I"m sure others as well.
I'm just suspicious of firearms instructors and self defense experts that have only 5 years of Law enforcement experience holding them selves out as "Experts" when so many schools by others with atual combat and trigger time are available. Paul Howe comes to mind. Heck, I'll even go to Keith Goerz house and get more training than most the "Tactical" type LEO's that have never seen a two way range in their entire careers. Keith, when you get back let me know I'm still willing to come down to Raeford later this month or August.
Mr. Perroni's SERE course is no longer listed on his sight, but trust me it was two months ago and it cost $3,495 for 3 or 4 day's of training.
I have taken both the Blackwater Tactical I and II courses and Larry Vickers Tactical Pistol course in Fayettville last year. Great courses and both with differing methods of training and differing mindsets and drills that enhance accuracy and reaction time to deadly threat and deadly force issues.
I'm no "Expert" in fact still a novice, but with a little training none the less. I'm just suspicious of most of these schools unless I see credentials that are more like Paul Howe, Larry Vickers, or TEAM SERGEANT. Keith Goerz is also included, my friend. After all, it's my money for this type of instruction. Not to sound like I deserve the best, but again, it's my money.
Goggles Pizano
06-20-2007, 09:01
former xxxxxxxxxx Police Officer with experience in investigations, surveillance and firearms training==== Isn't that like saying a former Fire Man trained to operate a Water Hose.
Simulation Safety Instructor===One time in Sims Camp.
Hell a patrol officer with a year on the street can claim those qualifications! You get a job=your investigating a possible crime. You can find any concealed location to conduct surveillance of a drug corner, and you have to qualify with your weapon four times a year. Caveat emptor 82nd trooper.
I PM'd him to ask who his SERE instructors were and if they were graduates of the SWC SERE course. His reply was "If you'd like to vet your self with me then I'll explain who and where are training is being done.Invite him here or give me the link....:lifter
Stay safe.
chiefrick194
06-20-2007, 09:24
The data is 1989. 18 years makes it outdated. A Police Officer with five years of experience is just off of probation. My latest training recommended hitting the cranial vault to disrupt the central nervous system. I agree with TR that shot placement is critical and can only be achieved with practice. I like Recon Econ's theory of 1911 Chunking only I use the Kell Light. Since I cannot run as fast in my senior years, I have become quiet accurate with the Kell Light and have ended several foot pursuits with a flick of the wrist. I am willing to teach the skill for only $750 a day.:D
The data is 1989. 18 years makes it outdated. A Police Officer with five years of experience is just off of probation. My latest training recommended hitting the cranial vault to disrupt the central nervous system. I agree with TR that shot placement is critical and can only be achieved with practice. I like Recon Econ's theory of 1911 Chunking only I use the Kell Light. Since I cannot run as fast in my senior years, I have become quiet accurate with the Kell Light and have ended several foot pursuits with a flick of the wrist. I am willing to teach the skill for only $750 a day.:D
I wonder if it is a "old guy" thing, the appreciation of the Whack Value (WV) of any firearm. With the new synthetic furniture on firearms and my first issue of the M16 (prior was the M14 .. really great whack factor) I felt a little less secure with the M16 if there was a failure to fire problem. Maybe it goes back to listening to others who where in the Korean war and war in the Pacific. The other factor, the generally feelings of the time, pistols were of little use.
Can anyone comment on the 10-15 seconds for bleeding out from the heart? For some reason, I was thinking a bullet hitting the superior aorta or right ventricle(or maybe left, whichever one leads to the aorta) would cause BP to drop to 0 almost instantly and unconsciousness momentarily after. And for some reason a ruptured subclavian artery would cause unconsiousness in the first 10-15 seconds. As far as caliber not making a difference... Maybe not as much from pistol to pistol, but 5.56 to 7.62 seems to be rather substantial from what I've seen. Of all the bullet induced trauma I've seen (which is not much) the 30mm seems to have the best results, so why not get as close to that size round as you can? :p
The Reaper
06-20-2007, 10:27
Can anyone comment on the 10-15 seconds for bleeding out from the heart? For some reason, I was thinking a bullet hitting the superior aorta or right ventricle(or maybe left, whichever one leads to the aorta) would cause almost BP to drop to 0 almost instantly and unconsciousness momentarily after. And for some reason that a ruptured subclavian artery would cause unconsiousness in the first 10-15 seconds. As far as caliber not making a difference... Maybe not as much from pistol to pistol, but 5.56 to 7.62 seems to be rather substantial from what I've seen. Of all the bullet induced trauma I've seen (which is not much) the 30mm seems to have the best results, so why not get as close to that as you can? :p
Not a physician, but as I understand it, even after the heart stops, there is sufficient oxygenation in the blood to allow for 30 seconds or more of conscious effort.
I am not a subscriber to the 7.62 over 5.56 argument, if the right ammo is used and the bullets are placed properly. That argument has been flogged to death here and elsewhere.
TR
Team Sergeant
06-20-2007, 13:31
Can anyone comment on the 10-15 seconds for bleeding out from the heart?
I didn't want to post this closely held secret but Special Forces soldiers shoot for the heart just for reason cited above.
Those 10-15 seconds allows us time to rest, reload have a bit to eat before moving on to the next foul smelling, stupid, flea infested insurgent bent on meeting allah.;)
BTW Tom Perroni is full of shite.
Team Sergeant
I've bee thinking about this and now I've got myself about 98% determined that 10-15 seconds is about 3 times too long for BP being @ 0. I was pretty involved in Judo and no-gi grappling before my time in the Army, and anyone else who has been into these sports for more than a few months has heard of or felt a '4 second choke.' The arm or leg triangle that pops your eyes out of your head and makes you go limp and see stars within the first 2 or 3 seconds. Thats with the carotids partially blocked off and very little pressure on the cervical arteries since they are mostly protected from the pressure by the spine. So I would be willing to bet that having a couple of holes(or a large tear, whatever) in the artery that supplies both of these sources with blood to the brain would have more rapid effects. This leads me to believe, in my own mind(which is the place where I am most often correct), that blowing out someone's aorta or right ventricle would cause sub-5 second (maximum) unconcsiousness. I'm probably wrong, but convince me.
The Reaper
06-20-2007, 15:54
You need to read some of the LE pubs where people are hit with lethal injuries and just go on like the Energizer Bunny.
Next time you are in a dust up, and think that the weapon, caliber, or ammo are the problem, check out the bodies afterwards.
Some people are just that hard to kill.
TR
I'm just suspicious of firearms instructors and self defense experts that have only 5 years of Law enforcement experience holding them selves out as "Experts" when so many schools by others with actual combat and trigger time are available. Paul Howe comes to mind. Heck, I'll even go to Keith Goerz house and get more training than most the "Tactical" type LEO's that have never seen a two way range in their entire careers. Keith, when you get back let me know I'm still willing to come down to Raeford later this month or August.
I don't think I can help, I'm not a Simulation Safety Instructor. But ill do what I can.
Seeing these commercial Tactical Instructors. The ones who are well known, published or have DVD releases. They have their own Groupies or entourage. In some cases they are worshiped. BTW is just sad.
Could I do what they do? Depends how you look at it. What do they do? The Students they teach pay them to be there, Students bring their own Ammo/Weapons/equipment, provide their own transportation and lodging. In many cases Students provide the Range. They show up and teach. Yes I can do what they do. I have done it several times, used my little Range at the house on occasions.
Could most of them do what I do. From what I have seen. Not many. It's out of their comfort zone. The last two instructors standing here aren't ex SF by chance. Some people in this line of work do not like being around people who know more. I'm glad people are learning how to shoot guns from these Gurus. I often question the reasons people go to these Gurus. Before I question the training itself.
I often question the reasons people go to these Gurus. Before I question the training itself.
I think there are a lot of guys, who want the fast track to skill, by buying it. Same with buying all the latest do-dads so they shoot better. The mentality of, "Why work when I can buy it."
Same with some of the instructors they have paper hanging on a wall but that is about the limits of their ability. They don't seem to understand there are some things money can not buy. A person can be the best shot in the world in competition, but when someone else is throwing lead at them they can not hit anything.
Hello,
Here is an interesting article that follows along Mr. Reaper's earlier comments.
Conclusions
Dr. Anderson concludes his forensic analysis of the gunfight by pointing out the remarkable accuracy of the FBI agents in achieving solids hit on both Platt and Matix, despite the fact that the suspects were obscured by deep shade, dust and gunsmoke. He provides specific examples of accurate shooting by five of the eight Agents involved: Grogan, McNeill, Dove, Risner and possibly Orrantia.
He also points out the ability of several of the people involved in the shoot-out, both suspects and FBI Agents, to continue to perform both physically and mentally through sheer willpower after having sustained severe gunshot wound trauma, and provides specific examples of determination on both sides.
From: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
With my rookies (and I am by no means an expert) I push the fact that heart attacks can cause the same stoppage of oxygenated blood to the brain and that individuals can, sometimes, be brought back without loss of brain function. Throw in factors like adrenaline, the presence of stimulants (especially meth) and you can confront a human that will not immediately cease to function with a round through the heart. Furthermore, CNS hits are preferable or necessary for followup to immediately stop the threat. I also like to do a shooting drill BEFORE this discussion to show how many rounds/magazines can be fired in 15 seconds to send home the fact that an individual bleeding out from a terminal wound can still kill them and that they can do the same to the bad guy that shot them.
Gene Econ
06-20-2007, 19:30
I think there are a lot of guys, who want the fast track to skill, by buying it. Same with buying all the latest do-dads so they shoot better. The mentality of, "Why work when I can buy it."...... A person can be the best shot in the world in competition, but when someone else is throwing lead at them they can not hit anything.
Hollis:
The old statement in competition that "the easiest point you can get is one you buy" doesn't hold water in terms of issued service weapons for our guys in combat? If that is the case, the Army should take back all of those M-68 sights and ACOGs and let the guys go back to their irons as the primary sight.
I take it that anyone involved in any formal competitive shooting sport should be denied entry into the service and or removed from the service due to incompatability between sport shooting and combat?
So tell me why someone who is competitive in a shooting sport is less prone to be a better marksman in combat than someone who has never shot a firearm before Basic? Why would someone who can use a firearm precisely without conscious thought somehow be less prone to succeed in combat than someone who must still think about the act of shooting?
I say this because I have many friends who are Presidents Hundred and or Army Distinguished Riflemen and who have done quite well in combat in terms of providing accurate fire when being shot at. If anything, guys who have been competitive in High Power, 3 Gun, or IPSC have conditioned themselves to function under pressure, are goals focused, have critical thinking skills, and have a decently developed set of coping skills. You know as well as I that you don't get good at any competitive shooting discipline unless you have cultivated these mental skills to a much higher degree of refinement than J.S.R. coming out of Basic who has never had the discipline to focus his time and effort on this or any sport. It takes far less effort to re-focus the already well developed mental skills of a successful and disciplined competitive shooter towards combat than the average Joe with little weapons handling or marksmanship experience.
I also say this out of respect for my friend Tung Nguyen.
Gene
Gene,
I will beg your pardon, Zin loi(sorry). My comment was not to discredited competitive shooting. It was more in line with a class of males who opt to the easy track of buying skill. I think competitive shooting has a value. As it has been mentioned on this forum, "paper does not shoot back". Training is very important, and the measure of training, IMHO, is how close to reality does it get.
I believe it was Josephus who said Roman training was bloodless combat, and Roman combat was bloodied training. When I arrived in RVN, it was a general consensus that all the training in the states was not equal to a day in the bush. That was probably a over statement. During the American Civil War, until a regiment was bloodied it was considered a unknown. Yes the training back then was nil. I really don't see a way to train and have the same effect as actual combat. From what I have seen and read the Military is doing a much better job of it than in my day.
I think excellent training and competition instills a self confidence needed to go in to combat. Actual combat confirms the skills learned and answers those unanswerable questions a person has, as they go into combat. Back to buying things, and this does not apply to our Military, you can not buy a set of huevos. I still think we have our finest military, today.
Cam on, ban cua ong (thank you, your friend)
Hollis
toi tieng titi (I speak little) Old age does that
OK now -- how many ways can you say "point the barrel into the target and move your finger without pointing the barrel somewhere else." ????
I GOT ONE! A Shooter missing the Target could be experiencing. Pre Primer Ignition Movement;)
Classic, This could be a thread
Gene Econ
06-20-2007, 20:37
I think excellent training and competition instills a self confidence needed to go in to combat. Actual combat confirms the skills learned and answers those unanswerable questions a person has, as they go into combat. Back to buying things, and this does not apply to our Military, you can not buy a set of huevos. I still think we have our finest military, today. Cam on, ban cua ong (thank you, your friend) Hollis toi tieng titi (I speak little) Old age does that
Hollis:
No sweat man (dude in today's terms). I just tire of the endless assaults on guys who are into the shooting sports. It seems to me that units should encourage this in today's combat environment as it involves weapons handling, discipline, mental focus, critical thinking, decision making, and physical activity which is better than playing video games all weekend or getting busted for DUI.
Gene
Gene Econ
06-20-2007, 20:43
I GOT ONE! A Shooter missing the Target could be experiencing. Pre Primer Ignition Movement;) Classic, This could be a thread
KG:
You statement is destined to fail because you failed to make it into an acronym. There is no such word as PPIM. Fix this and make it into an acronym and I will use your acronym.
So lets start a thread that entails an acronym that describes jerking of the trigger.
Gene
Hollis:
No sweat man (dude in today's terms). I just tire of the endless assaults on guys who are into the shooting sports. It seems to me that units should encourage this in today's combat environment as it involves weapons handling, discipline, mental focus, critical thinking, decision making, and physical activity which is better than playing video games all weekend or getting busted for DUI.
Gene
I agree 150%, most affirmative sir.
Hollis
82ndtrooper
06-20-2007, 22:01
I GOT ONE! A Shooter missing the Target could be experiencing. Pre Primer Ignition Movement;)
Classic, This could be a thread
Only thing that has helped me with PPIM is the "Ball and dummy" drill. Over and over and over and over and over, over over over. ;)
Leozinho
06-20-2007, 23:54
A person can be the best shot in the world in competition, but when someone else is throwing lead at them they can not hit anything.
From what I've seen, most of these instructors in question are not competition shooters. In fact, they'll use the same arguments that you do to excuse their lack of results in competition. They wouldn't dare set foot at a major match for fear that they'll be shown up.
Keep in mind this is coming from a new but enthusiatic competition shooter. From what I've seen, the professional competition shooters that teach classes limit their instruction to matters of marksmanship. They pointedly avoid getting into what is "tactical" and what isn't. They don't teach you how to clear rooms or survive changing a tire at night in the wrong side of town. They, more than the instructors that cater to the mall ninjas, know what they don't know.
I might add some more thoughts on this later.
frostfire
06-21-2007, 07:13
A shooting buddy recommended Dave Harrington classes. Has anybody trained with/can vouch for him?
I'll take a chance on the acronym. How about this, the only thing you need to know about jerking is JIB: jerking is bad.
Team Sergeant
06-21-2007, 08:14
A shooting buddy recommended Dave Harrington classes. Has anybody trained with/can vouch for him?
I'll take a chance on the acronym. How about this, the only thing you need to know about jerking is JIB: jerking is bad.
Dave is the real deal, a character, but the real deal.
Tell him there’s an SF Master Sergeant still waiting for the case of beer he owes for being beat on the range in Okinawa.
That will surely get his attention.....;)
TS
Peregrino
06-21-2007, 08:20
I would train with Dave Harrington (again). He was a SWCS instructor when I went through SOT in '95. Fair warning - he's very focused and has a "strong" personality. I haven't seen him in years, but I doubt any of that's changed. FWIW - Peregrino
I would train with Dave Harrington (again). He was a SWCS instructor when I went through SOT in '95. Fair warning - he's very focused and has a "strong" personality. I haven't seen him in years, but I doubt any of that's changed. FWIW - Peregrino
I worked with Dave then.
"TIME TO HIT THE HEAD AND DOWNLOAD ANOTHER COMBAT CHASIE"
82ndtrooper
06-21-2007, 17:17
I suppose if I'm ever faced with a deadly force situation and decide to engage the bad guy with my firearm and faced with a charge in courte and the judge ask's "Why did you shoot him 15 times?" my reply will be "I ran out of ammo":cool:
The Reaper
06-21-2007, 17:39
I suppose if I'm ever faced with a deadly force situation and decide to engage the bad guy with my firearm and faced with a charge in courte and the judge ask's "Why did you shoot him 15 times?" my reply will be "I ran out of ammo":cool:
"I quit shooting when he ceased being a threat."
TR
frostfire
06-21-2007, 19:23
Dave is the real deal, a character, but the real deal.
Tell him there’s an SF Master Sergeant still waiting for the case of beer he owes for being beat on the range in Okinawa.
That will surely get his attention.....;)
TSroger TS...
or maybe I can invite him to join ps.com, and observe how things are settled the good 'ol QPs way
frostfire
06-21-2007, 19:53
I have taken both the Blackwater Tactical I and II courses and Larry Vickers Tactical Pistol course in Fayettville last year. Great courses and both with differing methods of training and differing mindsets and drills that enhance accuracy and reaction time to deadly threat and deadly force issues.
I'm no "Expert" in fact still a novice, but with a little training none the less. I'm just suspicious of most of these schools unless I see credentials that are more like Paul Howe, Larry Vickers, or TEAM SERGEANT. Keith Goerz is also included, my friend. After all, it's my money for this type of instruction. Not to sound like I deserve the best, but again, it's my money.
82ndtrooper, having taken those courses, this is probably redundant for you.
One could not imagine how much marksmanship knowledge (mindset, shooting/malfunction drills, legal aspects, and even a glimpse of tactics) are available on this site w/ keywords such as dry fire, surgical accuracy, Vivo y Pendejo, hole in hole, etc. A year ago, I archived and perused them all. Needless to say, I won 1st place in my 1st action pistol match against those with more firearms than my digits and who've been shooting longer than my living. (I do dry fire like a zen master practicing kyudo though)
Anyway, those are basically a small portion of collective knowledge/experience from Peregrino, TS, NDD, SFAUC instructor, LEs and others. This is even before Kgoerz, Longrange1947 and Gene Econ joined the party. The knowledge is there for those willing to look and learn (unless/until Dan take it down one day perhaps)