View Full Version : NYC Poor to Get Cash for Good Behavior
The Reaper
06-19-2007, 09:44
If this isn't evidence of the descent of this country down the toilet of entitlement progams, income redistribution, "bread and the circus", and the leadership in NYC, I do not know what is. Bloomberg for President anyone? Cold hard cash for your vote.
"Poor people are trapped in a cycle of repeated setbacks that keep them from climbing out of poverty." Right.:rolleyes:
Follow my modest alternate proposals for success.
1. Stay in school. Study hard and do your best academically.
2. Stay away from drugs and alcohol.
3. Do not plan on a career in professional sports.
4. Do not have babies.
5. Get a job. Work hard.
6. Be responsible.
7. Do not commit crimes.
8. Save your money for important things, like a house, car, etc. Not grilles, not rims, not drugs, not Kristal, not bling.
9. When you have completed these previous steps, get married and have kids. Teach them the same process.
10. Live large and watch your kids succeed and go even farther. Repeat.
I fear that we are living in the last years of the American Dream.
God Bless America.
TR
NYC Poor to Get Cash for Good Behavior
Jun 19, 12:39 AM (ET)
By SARA KUGLER
NEW YORK (AP) - Poor residents will be rewarded for good behavior - like $300 for doing well on school tests, $150 for holding a job and $200 for visiting the doctor - under an experimental anti-poverty program that city officials detailed Monday.
The rewards have been used in other countries, including Brazil and Mexico, and have drawn widespread praise for changing behavior among the poor. Mayor Michael Bloomberg traveled to Mexico this spring to study the healthy lifestyle payments, also known as conditional cash transfers.
In New York, the two-year pilot program with about 14,000 participants will use private funds Bloomberg has raised because he did not want to spend government money on something that is highly experimental. More than $43 million has been raised toward the $53 million goal, Deputy Mayor Linda Gibbs said.
The theory behind cash rewards is that poor people are trapped in a cycle of repeated setbacks that keep them from climbing out of poverty. A person who doesn't keep up with his vaccinations and doctor's visits, for example, may get sick more often and struggle to stay employed.
Bloomberg, a billionaire Republican, said he believes paying people in such circumstances to make good decisions could help break those patterns. The program "gives New Yorkers in poverty a financial incentive to look ahead and make decisions that will improve their prospects for the future," he said in a statement.
But some critics have raised questions about cash reward programs, saying they promote the misguided idea that poor people could be successful if they just made better choices.
"It just reinforces the impression that if everybody would just work hard enough and change their personal behavior we could solve poverty in this country, and that's not reflected in the facts," said Margy Waller, co-founder of Inclusion, a research and policy group in Washington.
Waller, who served as a domestic policy adviser in the Clinton administration, said it would be more effective to focus on labor issues, such as making sure wage laws are enforced and improving benefits for working people.
Among the possible rewards in New York's program are $25 for attending parent-teacher conferences, $25 per month for a child who maintains a 95 percent school attendance record, $400 for graduating high school, $100 for each family member who sees the dentist every six months and $150 a month for adults who work full time.
The World Bank model for cash reward programs in other countries is that the value of the incentive should equal about a third of a household's income to have any lasting influence on changing behavior. The average amount that a family or adult can earn through the rewards each year is about $3,000 to $6,000; a family of three living in poverty earns about $17,000 a year.
Recipients, who are being selected this summer before the program begins in the fall, will be able to have the money deposited directly into their bank accounts. If they don't have accounts, they can get cards that are like debit cards but cannot be overdrawn.
The city is asking the federal government to excuse the payments from being taxed. Participants will be divided into three smaller programs that have different criteria and awards: one for about 2,550 families, one for 2,400 single adults and another for 9,000 children in grades 4 to 7.
To measure the effectiveness of the rewards, control groups of similar size will not be paid but will be studied by participating in regular surveys and reviews from an outside social policy research group, Gibbs said. The control participants will receive small incentives, such as weekly MetroCards for paying bus and subway fares, for their time and trouble.
I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.. :mad:
NYC is a s**t hole. That article is disturbing, what next.
Follow my modest alternate proposals for success.
1. Stay in school. Study hard and do your best academically.
2. Stay away from drugs and alcohol.
3. Do not plan on a career in professional sports.
4. Do not have babies.
5. Get a job. Work hard.
6. Be responsible.
7. Do not commit crimes.
8. Save your money for important things, like a house, car, etc. Not grilles, not rims, not drugs, not Kristal, not bling.
9. When you have completed these previous steps, get married and have kids. Teach them the same process.
10. Live large and watch your kids succeed and go even farther. Repeat.
I fear that we are living in the last years of the American Dream.
God Bless America.
TR
TR--
Very well said Sir. I think if my Grandpa were alive to see this, he would be disgusted! For one thing, I cannot believe they actually believe this sh** that they're shoveling.
It is transparent, IMHO, and shame on those who have enacted this plan!
Hard work for hard-earned money...not no work for buy-off's.:mad:
Holly
Headline, Teacher busted taking kickbacks from Blomberg's good behavior reward.
NYC is the capital of entitlement, which is another reason why I am so happy to be finally leaving this state for good in 5 more days.
Follow my modest alternate proposals for success.
1. Stay in school. Study hard and do your best academically.
2. Stay away from drugs and alcohol.
3. Do not plan on a career in professional sports.
4. Do not have babies.
5. Get a job. Work hard.
6. Be responsible.
7. Do not commit crimes.
8. Save your money for important things, like a house, car, etc. Not grilles, not rims, not drugs, not Kristal, not bling.
9. When you have completed these previous steps, get married and have kids. Teach them the same process.
10. Live large and watch your kids succeed and go even farther. Repeat.
I'd add one. Don't count on winning the lottery. :rolleyes:
Ridiculous proposal, beyond comprehension.
Sionnach
06-19-2007, 16:56
At least he had the decency of using money from private sources instead of taking it from citizens at gunpoint.
My guess is these folks are just going to start making stupid decisions again when they graduate the program and no longer qualify for the "Attaboy Bonus."
Roguish Lawyer
06-19-2007, 17:41
I have the pleasure of having to pay New York state income taxes even though I don't live there. I just love doing that. :rolleyes:
frostfire
06-19-2007, 17:43
the pursuit of instant gratification aka. feelin good
It's a phenomenon of today's modern society, and the conveniences of these day and age only support and perpetuate it further i.e. credit & financing. I worked at a basketball camp years ago and the coach showed me an illustration using a dollar bill, an obstacle, and a $15. Most of the kids would rather do the minimum and get the dollar bill than putting the extra effort to get the latter. This translates to: Why should I work hard for a stable career when I could spend most (or all) of paycheck on the latest "where yo at" mobile and look cool to my peers and feel good already (even for just a brief period). This same mindset is shared by simpleton guys who think with their little head, their gals who just want to cuddle cute babies and get ahead of their peers in the race to first get married, have kids etc. etc. When these folks do not care for their own future, there is no way they give a damn of their society or country.
Solution?
I believe and have observed that when one continually strives to remove oneselves from his/her comfort zone, he or she becomes a responsible and productive member of society in no time. No matter what one's nature and nurture are, he/she has the freedom to choose. OK, choosing = having initiative, so probably the choice will have to be made for these folks. Not sure if the rewards program is actually removing them from their comfort zone. Another solution is role model. Some athletes are doing that, but not everyone belong in the professional sports.
Well, so which state will follow NY rewards program next? Louisiana?
I have the pleasure of having to pay New York state income taxes even though I don't live there. I just love doing that. :rolleyes:
RL--
Okay...I give. How come?:munchin That doesn't seem right. (Forgive me if I am asking a stupid question...lack of sleep etc...)
Holly
This is great, more socialist programs (even if it isn't government money):rolleyes: ...
Have any of these folks given micro credit schemes a shot? Last year's Nobel Prize winner is a pioneer in micro credit. I found their setup quite interesting. Instead of giving money away, you provide small loans to poor folks, who other people have essentially vouched for (a trust worthy person), and people use that to establish themselves.
I don't know if such a scheme would be feasible here, but it definitely reinforces the right attitudes of hard work, NO free money, and being independent/industrious. Above all, it empowered poor women (who apparently pay back micro loans vs poor men).
To measure the effectiveness of the rewards, control groups of similar size will not be paid but will be studied by participating in regular surveys and reviews from an outside social policy research group, Gibbs said.
I'll make a prediction. With this large a test group, there will be sufficient power to show statistical significance - which is not necessarily the same as practical significance. Scholarly papers will be written, and soon the premise will be accepted doctrine.
Based on that, advocates of the program will force through a new entitlement program, funded through taxation.
And so the decline of the dollar and economy continues as we squander the wealth of past generations and choose the path of national oblivion.
If this could be worked into a credit program, similar to the ridiculous "carbon credit" program, I'm all for it. I'll pay for his good behavior through buying the right to engage in "bad" behavior.
In other words, if I could pay $300 for the right to slap the taste out of the next loser's mouth I see holding a "Wounded Vitenam Vet" (misspelling on my part intentional, his... not so much) sign and wearing chocolate chips with a glider badge and row of ribbons he stole from the Army/Navy store, it would all be worth it.
The fact that the term "entitlement society" even exists will likely mark the beginning of the end.
rubberneck
06-20-2007, 10:48
RL--
Okay...I give. How come?:munchin That doesn't seem right. (Forgive me if I am asking a stupid question...lack of sleep etc...)
Holly
If his legal residence is in NY but he works out of Ca. then he has to pay both state income taxes, but can write the Ca. tax bill off on his NY state income tax return. I don't know RL's situation but I used to live in NY and my firm moved to NJ so I got bagged both both state taxes. It stinks.
Roguish Lawyer
06-20-2007, 10:51
RL--
Okay...I give. How come?:munchin That doesn't seem right. (Forgive me if I am asking a stupid question...lack of sleep etc...)
Holly
As a member of a partnership, I have to pay state income taxes in each state where my firm has an office.
Bloomberg for President anyone?
Are you psychic, TR? I found his change of political affiliation yesterday rather interesting...
82ndtrooper
06-20-2007, 20:43
I was brow beaten by some of the New Yorkers some months ago while attempting to explain how NYC has gotten the way it has. Here is more proof, supplied by The Reaper.
Entitlement programs that encourage laziness, little educations beyond high school, if any, and a Social welfare utopia that is clearly lop sided with the scheme of the income and wealth distribution. Hillary, and her ilk also suscribe to the this BS ideology that anyone that earns a better than average living wage should give it back to the government for these programs. Watch and listen to Hillary use the phrase "Raising Revenues" next time she is in a debate. She'll use it many times and it simply means "Raising Taxes"
It's my opinion that liberal democrats either just dont understand the necessity of free market place and capitlism or they are simply not happy with any one or any one corporation that makes money. Wal Mart is evil, so are the Oil Company's, and most certainly the finanical services industries.
I'v spent the last 18 years of my life trying to convince the average household couple to supplement their retirement savings, provide disability insurance to protect against loss income, and to provide Life Insurance to actually have a built in estate should someone die earlier than their stated date by a mortuary table. Most will not do it, some do, and the rich seem to already have it or have achieved it by taking risk in the capital markets or real estate.
RL: I to pay the City of Cinncinnati an income tax even though I dont live in the state of Ohio or the City of Cinncinnati. I merely worked there. I also pay the Kentucky state income tax. I'd love to have a repeal of the "out of state income tax" I could buy your new Escalade.
Bloomberg is like the antithisis of the Policitcal Antichrist !!!
As a member of a partnership, I have to pay state income taxes in each state where my firm has an office.As if we don't pay enough in CA...
Stay safe.
Peregrino
06-20-2007, 21:02
Bloomberg is like the antithisis of the Policitcal Antichrist !!!
Antithesis or epitome? :confused:
Follow my modest alternate proposals for success.
1. Stay in school. Study hard and do your best academically.
2. Stay away from drugs and alcohol.
3. Do not plan on a career in professional sports.
4. Do not have babies.
5. Get a job. Work hard.
6. Be responsible.
7. Do not commit crimes.
8. Save your money for important things, like a house, car, etc. Not grilles, not rims, not drugs, not Kristal, not bling.
9. When you have completed these previous steps, get married and have kids. Teach them the same process.
10. Live large and watch your kids succeed and go even farther. Repeat.
I completely agree, and can say that these values were instilled in me at an early age. I will continue this cycle by teaching my daughter the same....
Here's the problem...........
There is a segment of our country that was never taught the above values, and (in fact) has been conditioned by their families and community to believe the following:
1. School is for sell outs. Drop out as soon as you can.
2. The dope man is someone to be respected, as is anyone who "hustles" for a living.
3. The only way to prove to a man that you love him is to have his baby. Also, having as many babies with as many women as possible is proof of your manhood.
4. A real man hustles for his money.
5. You are entitled to govt housing, SSI disability, and welfare. It is owed to you.
6. Things such as rims, grills, bling, clothes, and shoes are status symbols that directly reflect your value and worth as a person.
7. Committing crimes gives you "cred" on the streets. Real men have spent time in the pen.
8. Rapping is a profession..... even when nobody is paying you to do it.
I wish that you guys could do a ride along with me and see what I see..... 3 or 4 generations of welfare recipients living under one (subsidized) roof, 18 year olds with 3 or 4 kids (who see nothing wrong with it), 18-34 year old men who are proud that that they have never had a real job, even though they have 6 or 7 kids with 5 different women, houses that are so filthy that I wouldn't let my dog sh*t in it, yet there are closets full of Sean jean, FUBU, and Rockawear clothes, flat screen TVs, 20" rims that are 2k a piece.............
So here is the question..... how do we break the cycle (if it is even our job as a society to break)? How do you get to the kids before they learn this way of life and teach them the principles that Reaper talked about? When you have 10 year olds dropping out and working as look outs for the dope man (with their mommas happy to be getting a cut of their pay), how do you step in and teach that kid to be a productive human being? If you don't, then the cycle will roll on, and snowball, and snowball, etc...
I agree that this program is very poorly thought out... but I can understand the desire of some to break the cycle of entitlement and "alternate morality" that is rampant in the inner cities.
My answer? End all programs. Every single one. As my dad used to say "starvation is a helluva motivator to get a damned job." But we all know that this won't happen under any administration.
So just for the sake of discussion, how would you handle this problem if you were "king for a day?"
We all agree that this program sucks, but what is the answer?
And for the record, people of all races fall into the category that I referred to above. I am not referring to any race or culture in particular..... just want to throw that out there before someone calls me a racist. God knows we cops hear that enough at work. LOL:D
Sionnach
06-21-2007, 15:41
I agree that this program is very poorly thought out... but I can understand the desire of some to break the cycle of entitlement and "alternate morality" that is rampant in the inner cities.
My answer? End all programs. Every single one. As my dad used to say "starvation is a helluva motivator to get a damned job." But we all know that this won't happen under any administration.
So just for the sake of discussion, how would you handle this problem if you were "king for a day?"
We all agree that this program sucks, but what is the answer?
And for the record, people of all races fall into the category that I referred to above. I am not referring to any race or culture in particular..... just want to throw that out there before someone calls me a racist. God knows we cops hear that enough at work. LOL:D
I see nothing wrong with the "teach a man to fish" argument, but they have to want to learn to fish. Starvation may increase fishing desire, or it may just push parasites towards crime instead of handouts.
Self-motivation is the solution, and it's going to take something a lot bigger than 9/11 or Katrina to snap our nation out of its "me" and "nanny" mentalities. When my grandfather was a boy, and you were down on your luck, the church was there to help you, not the government. The church expected you to *fix* yourself in short order, and they required you to some form of repayment, such as working on the church roof, grounds keeping, etc. The "New Deal" changed all that. Now the government gives, supposedly without asking anything in return. People have been conditioned by politicians that government, and not themselves, is their provider. I do not believe this is limited to the "poor." Just take a look at the government health care platforms being offered by most of the Democrat candidates for POTUS. Americans are being told that the government should provide for them. Despite what people believe, the government is not seizing money from some and giving to others out of kindness, politicians do it for power. Every time the government provides you with something, you lose freedom in some form or fashion.
I think a sizable majority of Americans are willing to give up their freedom for economic and physical security. I'm not.
And for the record, people of all races fall into the category that I referred to above. I am not referring to any race or culture in particular..... just want to throw that out there before someone calls me a racist. God knows we cops hear that enough at work. LOL:D
I didn't read into it that you were. You are stating what you observe. The word racism is thrown around most often by people who don't even understand the meaning of the word. If we can't point out cultural problems and suggest solutions without being labeled a racist, how in the hell are we going to confront and correct these problems?
Besides, "keeping up with the Joneses" transcends all races and ethnicities... except the Amish. :p
Br.Omega
06-21-2007, 21:21
All of you hit on a very good problem: Who is the poor?
Are the poor those who are mooching off of a welfare system and buying designer clothing, spinners, and all sorts of accessories to to trick out their rides and be the coolest person ever?
or
Is the poor those who are in serious need of education, food, sometimes shelter, and possibly a hand out of a hole
or
Is the poor those who are addicts trying to start life over and in some serious need of help.
Maybe it's a combination of all of them.....
My point is this: If the media is the vehicle for telling us who the poor are then we will all think the poor are in the first category. I think this is purposely done in order to have those with the means to vote feel like 'someone is on their side[ultimately that is all politicians want to use these people for]' and yet the effects are what many have described above: a chaotic system of people with morals and ideas that are far from normal and healthy.
If you ask me, with my bias, the needs of the poor should be left up to those in charity work, social work, and religious work. The government should be a last resort or it should seriously aid those who do the work, not hand out rewards for things that should be done if one seriously values their life.
In my very limited experience on a small scale it is person to person that helps 'the poor' [which we all are in one form or another at one time or another] overcome obstacles and in the grand scale it is the successful understanding of ideas and values that aid us as humans to grow and form environments for this growth.
Ultimately as each day passes this is my feeling: :confused:
Just thought I would try and add something--
-Br.O
PS. I also think that those talking about a 'comfort zone' are dead on. I wrote a 'thesis' (complete but unedited) about comfort being a 'true lie' that rots the soul (i think motivation is another good way of understanding the soul)
Distorted
06-28-2007, 02:55
I would like to preface the following by stating that I agree with this thread's sentiments about the importance of traditional American values. However, I would like to add that there is a lot more to pulling oneself out of abject poverty than 'keeping yourself together'.
If the rewards are really the following:
$25 for attending parent-teacher conferences, $25 per month for a child who maintains a 95 percent school attendance record, $400 for graduating high school, $100 for each family member who sees the dentist every six months and $150 a month for adults who work full time.
For example, the first 'reward', the $25 for attending a parent-teacher conference on its' own could make a huge difference in terms of attendance. The majority of parent-teacher conferences are scheduled either during or immediately after the school day. Many people in the lowest echelon cannot take 'a few hours' off of work, they would have to lose an entire day of minimum wage work in order to attend, which is simply not feasible.
Many guidance counselors and psychologists studying the demographic who I have personally spoken to have suggested reimbursement for lost wages as an incentive to parents who need to be brought in for 'PTC's. This is not a bad idea.
Money to kids for maintaining school attendance creates a tangible, immediate reward for making it to class; which offsets the desire to skip school to do work, people who skip school to get high will skip school to get high whether you pay them or not.
Money for graduating highschool offsets the temptation to drop out for what appears to be steady, decent-paying work in your senior year, something which I saw enough of to be concerned.
The 'dentist' bonus hopefully offsets the price of adequate dental care down to the point where children who otherwise could not or would not get it can and will.
The 'full-time job' bonus offsets the miniscule (but important) amount of extra income that one would get from engaging in high-risk illegal business such as drug dealing. In the end, criminals in the lower classes do not make much more than minimum wage, because of the high risk and overhead.
The person who makes intelligent decisions based on his circumstances will often finds himself faced with decisions in which the best possible choice is still not a good one, this program is designed to alter the economics of those sorts of situations, allowing 'good' options to be the 'best' options available.
It does far, far more for the man who is doing everything he can to pull himself out of the gutter (including following TheReaper's suggestions) than it does for the person who intends to stay in said gutter. I would even go so far as to say that if the average working-class Mexican has the work ethic I've seen from a large number of 'illegals', this program would (and apparently does) work wonders there.
This idea may well have impact similar in magnitude to the highly successful 'Grameen Bank' concept. I personally have met a few people who worked their asses off to get themselves and eventually their families out of 'the hood' who would have been able to get out much much faster with the aid of this sort of program.
The Reaper
06-28-2007, 05:00
So, based on your vast life experience, would you call yourself a socialist?
Or just someone who fails to see that ensuring the the success of your kids (who are already getting a free education) is its own reward? Very few kids who skip school are going to work, BTW.
Two parents, one of whom is employed make this system feasible. Knocked up high school kids make it infinitely more difficult.
TR
I will not live in a society that has to bribe people to do the "right" thing.
A concerned teacher will work around a concerned parent's schedule to make a parent teacher conference happen. There is no reason to miss work.
If the incentive of "Hey, your life is going to suck if you don't graduate from high school" isn't motivating enough, how is $400 when you graduate going to work? The joke would be on the state as those with the minimal amount of sense required to stay in school and achieve the laughably low standards are going to do so without the $400 incentive and those that planned on getting out and getting an early start at supplying us with another generation of welfare babies, crackheads, drug dealers and malcontents know they can make that in a weekend of hustling.
I would like to preface the following by stating that I agree with this thread's sentiments about the importance of traditional American values.
Which are hard work, discipline, attention to orders, and respect of those in uniform, among others. At the core is self-respect and...Pride! Yes, the evil Pride in self, Pride in job, and Pride in Family and Country. These are good things!
It is still a good thing when a person creates a good product, such as Mr. Harsey, and His Knives, or the farmer down the road, and his crop of sweet corn. There is nothing, IMO, like the satisfaction at the end of the day, of a job well done. It is euphoria to me.
When people start to think things should be given to them, then soceity can expect what it is paying for...a bunch of folks with their hands out, (and even scarier), they are looking you in the eyes without shame, but with a peculiar hunger and demand.
I have seen it, as I am sure others have. It is pitiful.
.02 Holly
Distorted
06-28-2007, 15:11
So, based on your vast life experience, would you call yourself a socialist?
Or just someone who fails to see that seeing to the the success of your kids (who are already getting a free education) is its own reward?
I am not a socialist, and I am too young to think that I can get away with 'just' producing successful children, I want more out of life. Does that answer your question?
A concerned teacher will work around a concerned parent's schedule to make a parent teacher conference happen. There is no reason to miss work.
I have personally interviewed a sizable number of guidance counselors and others in similar fields, and have also worked with a good deal of research data on the subject. I am not talking out of my ass when I say that the kids (latino especially) who end up needing PTCs the most often do not get them, sometimes because of apathy--which $25 will not fix, and often because their parents cannot afford to lose a full day's wages. If your dad jumps on a truck at 7am to go do work on the other end of the state and comes home at 7pm, having a PTC at 4 in the afternoon costs him the full day, and if you're in dire straits, this can be unacceptable. I also know, and can dig up data that states that a very sizable number of middle and highschool dropouts do so to bring in money, often illegally (child labor, prostitution, drugs etc). This begs the question, why not instead of trying to manage time (how useful is a PTC over the phone at 8pm after doing manual labor all day?), manage money and reimburse a sizable portion of the lost wages ($25).
I very strongly believe in hard work, discipline, and self-respect. I strongly value the idea of hard work in the name of improving one's lot in life. I do not believe in pouring money into the gutter to feed the people who refuse to put forth the effort to pull themselves out of it. I also know that small changes in the economics of situations can have far-reaching impacts on the individuals trapped in them.
I would suggest looking up the 'Grameen Bank', it's a shining example of what a small amount of intelligently managed charity (very small loans that do not require collateral) can accomplish in poverty stricken areas.
I am not defending the 'culture of entitlement' that seems to be sweeping the US, however, I do believe that it is wrong to bring a child into a world with nothing but dead ends for him. A starving newborn in Darfur with a predisposition to intelligence and a strong work ethic is probably still going to die without outside assistance. I am only concerned with social 'assistance' to the people who do not have the opportunity to pull themselves out of their horrid situations--the people who have adequate opportunity who simply do not use it should be punished, not subsidized.
Typical conservative economic philosophy is very keen on how someone should act with respect to the opportunities they've been given, but in general does not effectively address the problem of adding new individuals to the system. Yeah, fine, so some fifteen year old gets knocked up and decides that she doesn't want to get an abortion. I don't care what happens to her, but that kid? That kid isn't born with any sort of 'original sin' and can't be blamed for just showing up. It has been demonstrated pretty thoroughly that a good upbringing can reverse most early bad stuff (Romanian orphanages post-Ceausescu anyone?), so why shouldn't we insure that 'screwed' child gets that upbringing.
That being said, the above is the 'carrot', and I do not believe in holding back with the stick. I think that there should be preventative measures in place, as well as very stiff penalties applied to people who bring children that they cannot care for into the world, it is a crime that is not far from murder in my eyes. The following paper shows the benefit of simply allowing abortions gives to society as a whole with respect to crime reduction--imagine what effective management of birth rates could do.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=174508
I would like to further stress that I while I do agree with most of you in this thread, and I am not a socialist by a long shot, I do believe in the importance of charity, and of offering a helping hand to the man who cannot help himself
When people start to think things should be given to them, then soceity can expect what it is paying for...a bunch of folks with their hands out, (and even scarier), they are looking you in the eyes without shame, but with a peculiar hunger and demand.
I don't care about these people, and I tend to believe that they will benefit very little from exploitation of the program being discussed, especially in comparison to the people who will actually be 'helped'.
The Reaper
06-28-2007, 16:05
How much will you pay me not to kick your ass at school today? How much not to disrupt class?
School is out. How much will you give me not to commit a violent crime before tomorrow morning?
Now I am an adult. Pay me or I will jack your car. How much to give you your child in the car seat back to you first?
Is this the way contributing members of society behave, or is this the product of an entitlement society run wild?
Redistribution of wealth from the haves to the have nots, according to their needs, is a core concept of socialism. You espouse socialist values while denying the label.
I do not know about your experience with teachers as a parent, but the teachers at my kids' schools will meet me on weekends or at night if I was working and was otherwise unavailable. I would bet that the majority of the people who will take this money are unemployed, and not looking for work.
Loans are not charity. Loans have an expectation of repayment. Charity is something you give someone with no expectations. Where is the mention that these payments will be repaid as loans?
Orphanages put money in the hands of rational people who care for others. Welfare typically puts money directly in the hands of people who do not understand or care about consequences, and live only for the moment, and their own personal pleasure.
If a little money will fix poverty, with all of the billions spent in the "war on poverty" here in the last 40 years, it is a shock that we still have any poor people. Why is this?
People have been on entitlement programs for years here, and have no intentions of ever leaving. Most multi-generational people in public housing believe that they own the housing unit as personal property. At least once per week, I will be in line behind someone in a grocery store who will buy groceries with food stamps, then turn around and push cigarettes and alcohol products over and pay for them with cash. If I can't afford food, should I be buying drugs and alcohol to complicate my health issues? Is this the act of a rational person? I recently checked out of a WalMart behind a Latino couple with two small kids. They paid for their food with food stamps, then bought clothing with cash. I walked past them as they were loading on the way out, they were getting into a brand new Dodge Durango which still had dealer tags. Should I be subsidizing their food, or should they be subsidizing my older, less costly vehicles?
I would wager that the vast majority of the money delivered in this program will go to buy bling, lottery tickets, and drugs. Ten years later, the only discernable difference will be that the people who earned the money originally will have that much less wealth. The recipients will be statistically unchanged, but they will reliably vote for whoever will continue the giveaway program.
If I were 18 years old, just out of school, and had no job, home, or resources, I believe that within a week, I could have all three, legally. Most restaurants are hiring, and turnover is so high that you could soon be in an management position, if you worked hard and were honest.
This program is the equivalent of paying protection money to the Mob, and will do no contributing member of society any good. You appear to either misunderstand the program, or the recipients. Maybe more years, more contact, or having greater responsibilities, like children or people whose lives are in your hands, will serve to change your outlook. If another disaster like Katrina occurs, I strongly encourgage you to go and see how the aid recipients behave. I would submit that there will be those who are genuinely thankful, who want to help others and get their lives back to normal, and there will be those who want to know why there isn't more, and when YOU will be giving THEM their lives back. There is a huge difference, and it is one I think you are missing. The people who will take this money are the same ones who usually have their hands out and who blame everyone else for their problems. Those you describe who genuinely want to improve their lot will not take it.
I guess that based on your comments, you will disagree, but IMHO, the greatest thing that I can do with the rest of my life is to transform my kids into rational, productive, educated members of society who understand the role of the citizen and the state in this great nation.
That is just my opinion, based on a half century of watching this madness.
TR
I would like to further stress that I while I do agree with most of you in this thread, and I am not a socialist by a long shot, I do believe in the importance of charity, and of offering a helping hand to the man who cannot help himself
There is, however, a qualitative difference between "charity", or philanthropy with your own funds, and compulsion to support a program via taxes.
Distorted
06-28-2007, 21:55
Social programs which produce 'entitlements' for adults, which produce the sort of handout-seeking stinkers that you focus on are fundamentally both morally unsound and ineffective. Any and all 'social assistance' type programs should be viewed a loans, fronted to people in the hopes that the programs will produce productive people who repay uncle sam in the form of taxes. This is not the effect of the welfare state, because the morons in charge of it are focusing on a 'right to a basic standard of living', rather than on creating rational, intelligent, hard-working, motivated people with the ability to leverage the opportunities given to them.
I am arguing in favor of this program in specific, independent of the apparatus of the rest of the welfare state, which I believe should be dismantled. I believe that there is a specific, and important distinction here.
I am responding to the article as it is written, which lists four specific types of awards that do not fall into the category of 'paying the mob protection money', that is clearly not the intent of this program, and assuming that the people who came up with the idea maintain some amount of control over it, it will not be the effect. Three of the four involve creating incentives for getting children who may be moving in the wrong direction (read: away from school) for childish reasons. These are not large sums of money, you cannot live off of these specific handouts. The fourth is dental care, adults who do not get dental care must brush scrupulously or deal with cavities and associated problems. Children who do not get dental care must deal with crooked teeth and all the associated problems for the rest of their lives.
I personally think that people who are sitting in cycles of poverty, welfare, and 'entitlement' are drains on society, who should simply not be supported. I also think that people who cannot even take care of themselves should not be permitted to have children, and that significantly more effort should be undertaken to reduce the number of people born into those sorts of situations. However, once a child is born into a bad situation, can you, as a parent with kids of your own really say that these kids should just be hung out to dry?
Capitalistic economic theory, right back to people like Ayn Rand and the other major philosophers dodge the question of raising children. Most arguments concerning 'hard work' 'discipline' 'self-respect' and that sort of thing do not take into account that if a person is not raised with these values, there is no reason to believe that they will develop them spontaneously--especially not in a diseased culture that glorifies hustlers and believes in 'entitlement'.
I think that while monetary handouts are wrong, and that there is no fundamental 'right' to live off of the backs of the working members of our society, children are not crapped out fully functional. A human child requires almost two decades worth of 'rasing' before we consider him legally responsible for himself. Some people can hit that point faster than others, some people never hit it at all. 'Entitlements' create a society filled with eternal children, and the paternalistic attitude towards 'the poor' held by socialists is ludicrous.
I believe that for those first two decades or so, anyone who is born into this world has a right to a fair chance at being raised by parents who will instill them with an appreciation for traditional American values, and the opportunity to walk a difficult road to productivity, happiness, and later in life, continuing the cycle. If someone can't give a kid that, they shouldn't have one, and if they have one anyway, they should be severely punished.
A child who cannot be raised properly by his parents is a burden to the rest of us, if he is not raised properly, he becomes unproductive, and potentially criminal. It is therefore our duty to ensure that every opportunity is presented to every child born. If you view childhood as a pipeline to a life as a productive adult, it is sick and wrong to bring someone into the world without the resources to complete said pipeline, and that while 'leakage' should be avoided, there will always be some, and the people who fall out despite every opportunity being extended to them should simply be allowed to disappear.
Now, to address this:
If I were 18 years old, just out of school, and had no job, home, or resources, I believe that within a week, I could have all three, legally. Most restaurants are hiring, and turnover is so high that you could soon be in an management position, if you worked hard and were honest.
What if you were 12, your dad had no job, you lived in a crackhouse, and your family wasn't able to put food on the table? What if you were 10? There is a fundamental difference between an adult and a child. What if your dad is a worthless piece of crap who never taught you the importance of hard work, and showed off his 'entitlements' and the products of hustling to you? The ideas which lead to productivity have to be taught, they very rarely arise on their own. As a fifteen year old with a highschool diploma (yeah this is the norm), I found that child labor laws caused problems for me when I was looking for a full-time job. Fortunately I turned 16 quickly, and the laws, while still lame, are less lame at 16.
And besides if you did find yourself in that situation, sure, you could get a house, money, food, and a job quickly, it's not hard to rally, but can you sustain? When you ended up sitting on a $10-$15 an hour job with little to no hope for further advancement in a restaurant, as well as no demonstrable skills or education, you have to 'tighten the belt' to minimize expenditure and maximize savings (capital gain), what would go out the window first? Can you build the capital base your kids need to pull themselves up even higher and go to college? What would you sacrifice in order to build that capital? Would you get a second job, and just hope that your kids can deal with not having you around? What if you're too stupid or under-educated to understand the importance of building capital?
At what point would you decide that the cycle of poverty you're trapped in probably won't end in your lifetime, and start spending your hard-earned capital on luxury items--symbols of a 'successful' life, like the above latino couple in the new Dodge. For you, probably never, but the fact that you have QP written under your name suggests that you have an uncommon level of discipline and motivation
The reason numerous poor families stay that way is because of their refusal to build capital from one generation to the next; most squander their money on luxury goods and start their children off in a position which is no better, or potentially worse than the they were in when they started. This is well-documented as the reason that African-American families are failing to rise out of poverty.
A cash subsidy that lowers the cost (or opportunity cost) of a service that one in the position of 'trying to save enough money to get myself and my family out of the hood' would probably cut out in the name of creating wealth is not
a bad thing.
I am concerned with the children of worthless adults, not the adults themselves (short of preventing them from having more).
Maybe they'll let their cops qualify for this program considering that the starting wage is only $25k a year and it takes five years to get up to a liveable wage. Did I mention that NYC is facing about a 3,000 officer shortage?
But hell, I guess they won't need cops if they're plannig on expanding this program and start paying the criminals to be good.
Maybe they'll let their cops qualify for this program considering that the starting wage is only $25k a year and it takes five years to get up to a liveable wage. Did I mention that NYC is facing about a 3,000 officer shortage?
But hell, I guess they won't need cops if they're plannig on expanding this program and start paying the criminals to be good.
When I first started looking onto LE, I called a recruiter at NYPD. I was young, single, and a hard charger, so why not move to the Big Apple and work for THE PD for a couple of years, right?
When he told me that I would start out at 25k (I think it is up to 28K now), and that I would reach approx 50K after 5 years, I thought he was screwing with me.
I asked him where the hell I could live on that in NYC, and he said, "kid, nowhere that you would want to live."
That was enough for me. LOL
The Reaper
06-29-2007, 08:59
What if you were 12, your dad had no job, you lived in a crackhouse, and your family wasn't able to put food on the table? What if you were 10? There is a fundamental difference between an adult and a child. What if your dad is a worthless piece of crap who never taught you the importance of hard work, and showed off his 'entitlements' and the products of hustling to you? The ideas which lead to productivity have to be taught, they very rarely arise on their own. As a fifteen year old with a highschool diploma (yeah this is the norm), I found that child labor laws caused problems for me when I was looking for a full-time job. Fortunately I turned 16 quickly, and the laws, while still lame, are less lame at 16.
And besides if you did find yourself in that situation, sure, you could get a house, money, food, and a job quickly, it's not hard to rally, but can you sustain? When you ended up sitting on a $10-$15 an hour job with little to no hope for further advancement in a restaurant, as well as no demonstrable skills or education, you have to 'tighten the belt' to minimize expenditure and maximize savings (capital gain), what would go out the window first? Can you build the capital base your kids need to pull themselves up even higher and go to college? What would you sacrifice in order to build that capital? Would you get a second job, and just hope that your kids can deal with not having you around? What if you're too stupid or under-educated to understand the importance of building capital?
At what point would you decide that the cycle of poverty you're trapped in probably won't end in your lifetime, and start spending your hard-earned capital on luxury items--symbols of a 'successful' life, like the above latino couple in the new Dodge. For you, probably never, but the fact that you have QP written under your name suggests that you have an uncommon level of discipline and motivation
The reason numerous poor families stay that way is because of their refusal to build capital from one generation to the next; most squander their money on luxury goods and start their children off in a position which is no better, or potentially worse than the they were in when they started. This is well-documented as the reason that African-American families are failing to rise out of poverty.
A cash subsidy that lowers the cost (or opportunity cost) of a service that one in the position of 'trying to save enough money to get myself and my family out of the hood' would probably cut out in the name of creating wealth is not
a bad thing.
I am concerned with the children of worthless adults, not the adults themselves (short of preventing them from having more).
People in these situations do not care that the money is not enough alone to live on. They are already largely either criminals or on the public dole. It is enough, however, to score another rock or two, a bag of crystal meth, or a new grille, and that is all that matters. BTW, the child does not receive the money, the "guardian" does.
Dental care is a serious issue? Only if you fail to brush and floss, otherwise it is a cosmetic issue. Is there a Constitutional right to a perfect smile? Should we give them cosmetic surgery as well to help their esteem issues? How about a set of 44DDs, liposuction, or a new nose?
If I were 12, and in the situation you describe, I would hope that I could use intelligence to see that the only way out of this, minus a 44" vertical jump and a wicked 3-point shot, would be to study and work hard. Successful people succeed regardless of adversity and obstacles. That is Darwinian.
A little personal history. I started working in my grandfather's tobacco fields at age six. Every summer break from school, from the first day out till we went back, was spent in or around the fields. Sometimes well into the school year. Contrary to what some may believe, this did not kill me. It made me appreciate hard work and the value of money earned. I did this every year until I got a job in an factory between high school and college. I still could not have gone without scholarships, which I earned through hard work and study. I worked every summer in college, so that I would have spending money for food and the essentials not covered by the scholarships come the fall semester. For the last two years, I worked part time at nights and on weekends. This did not damage me either, other than to make me less inclined to part with my money to support someone who others decided needed it more than I did.
Unlike Hillary, I do not believe that it takes a village to raise a child. I believe that the parentS are, and people who do not have spouses or adequate means of support should not be having children. Bad reproductive choices on the part of some should not require a diversion of the income of those who are acting responsibly.
In response to your second hypothetical, I have found that hardworking and responsible people do not stagnate at the lower end of the pay scale for very long. If I was making $10-15 per hour, I do not think that having children would be a good idea unless I had a budget and a plan for it. I waited till I was 36 to get married, and did not spawn any children prior to that.
As long as having children is seen as a means of income, you are going to have kids in this situation. Throwing more money at the custodian will only make the situation worse.
Of course, I will have to concede that when I was 19, I did not have the answers to all of the problems of the world, as you appear to. How many years have you been paying taxes, putting your kids in schools, supporting a family, and observing the society around you?
TR
This is why I live in the Jungle. Our American values and dream are going down the drain. Foreigners wonder why Americans are so lazy, well why work when they will pay you for activities that are normal things in your life. Our forefathers are turning in their graves.
TR - You have summed it up perfectly, and this statement...
As long as having children is seen as a means of income, you are going to have kids in this situation. Throwing more money at the custodian will only make the situation worse.
is the #1 reason in my book. If it is unbelievable to people that there are folks out there that have more kids as a means to getting more money from the government, go volunteer at your local division of child and family services for one day. It is unbelievable - but it's the way it works.
I'm with TR and Shar. At the risk of sounding crass, I kept it in my pants until I knew that I could raise a child with my wife. That is key.
And, I'm with TR again on the parent teacher conference. My wife and son lived in Kansas City while I finished up at Fort Riley. That's a two hour drive for those that have never had the Riley Curse. I spent two years driving back and forth to KC on weekends and occasional weeknights to be with my kid and do Dad stuff. Part of that was parent teacher conferences. When the first one of the parent teacher conference memos came home, we were to select a time between 1200-1600 to make the conference. Given the OPTEMPO of my unit, that just wasn't an option. I called the teacher and explained that the earliest I could make it was 1930. She readily agreed and, after a day that started with PT at 0500, I made the drive to KC, had the conference and drove back to Riley so I could get some sleep before PT the next day. I ended up repeating that twice a semester for two years. I'm not complaining because there's nothing to complain about. I would have driven twice as far for 1/2 as good a reason because it involves my kid. So, don't give me this mess about a 7AM-7PM work day. And, don't offer to pay a parent $25 when it's the teacher's JOB to make that conference happen, especially in situations where the parents (being charitable with the plural there) need some flexibility.
The reason numerous poor families stay that way is because of their refusal to build capital from one generation to the next; most squander their money on luxury goods and start their children off in a position which is no better, or potentially worse than the they were in when they started. This is well-documented as the reason that African-American families are failing to rise out of poverty.
I've beeen reading this conversation for some time now, with a bit of a grin. Strangely enough it's the "well-documented" that drew me out. :)
There are two major ways to die in Appalachia. Either you starve to death, or you're studied to death by grad students. Starving is less painful. ;)
I believe that grad students doing studies on "poverty" should be allowed to *choose* one limb that they will forfeit for such intrusion. Others from "down home" think one limb insufficient.
My father never "built capital". He told me I would go to school, put myself into it, and do well. He was serious when he said it. I went. I learned.
And, getting out of "poverty" isn't hard. First you decide you want to. Then you do what you need to make it happen. There are very few, inner-city or not, who don't have the opportunity.
We (at my H.S.) were prime turf for recruiters from the services. The question of whether to join and serve never really came up for those of us who were fit. It was just a matter of which service. And, it results in better food and shelter than most of the world will *ever* see.
I made it at 6'1" and about 130 lbs., not uncommon for my county.
My ex went to college on pell grants. I have one son who got his education while in the Army. I have another who takes night classes after work at a community college. ROTC exists. I picked up a couple of degrees while in my 30's, at night after work.
I started with nothing, the ex started with nothing, and by my own design my kids started with nothing.
None of the above would have changed if someone had handed my Dad $25, or if someone tried to put money in my hand.
Of course, we have different definitions of poverty. By my definition? Four girls rooming together in a small apartment trying to stretch dollars for tuition isn't poverty. Eight Mexicans sharing an apartment so they can send some money home aren't living in "poverty". I suspect your mileage varies..... Greatly.
And. lest this sound like a sad story, let me assure anyone reading that working side-by-side with your Dad in the fields, at whatever age, beats hell out of anything else you can imagine.
Oh yes, and that school 5 miles away was only uphill in *one* direction. ;)
A child who cannot be raised properly by his parents is a burden to the rest of us, if he is not raised properly, he becomes unproductive, and potentially criminal. It is therefore our duty to ensure that every opportunity is presented to every child born.
A cash subsidy that lowers the cost (or opportunity cost) of a service that one in the position of 'trying to save enough money to get myself and my family out of the hood' would probably cut out in the name of creating wealth is not
a bad thing.
A program like that already exists. Its is called the United States Military. It will also make up for the deficiency that not all children's parents instill in them an adequate level of values.
I grew up in HUD housing, my parents still live paycheck to paycheck and most of my extended family has criminal records. I was a punk ass fat kid who had never ran a day in his life, living in poverty south of Boston and most of my associates were involved in some form of criminal activity. I wanted out, so I got off of my ass and went down to the USMC recruiter.
At almost 25 I am now happily married, own my own home in a very nice subrban neighborhood, I am going to college and other than said home I have less than $6K in total debt. This includes the debt for my graduate program (which will be paid off long before I graduate). I have no criminal record and I am working towards a career in Law Enforcement.
I acheived all of this through discipline, perseverence, hard work and the grace of God. All of which was facilitated by my time in the Corps. Anyone who is not a total lost cause can join the military, get away from their past with a clean slate and earn the tools to make a good life for themselves and their future generations.
You pointed to the fact that most of the people who disagree with you have QP under their names which denotes a higher level of discipline and motivation, I agree. I am not nor will I ever be able to attain what they have yet I still managed to get myself out of the "hood". If I can do it from where I started from and in the condition that I started, anyone can.
I am sorry, I will get off of my soapbox now.
the squid
07-02-2007, 07:03
I'm with the QP's on this one.
What do those with the entitlement mentality think they are actually accomplishing by their own complacency? Do they feel as though if they wish hard enough for a hand out, and if they get enough of them, then eventually they'll be better off then they were before?
Self pity and laziness begets more of the same. At the very least, I wish that most of America would realize that in spite of their misfortune, or bad luck, that nobody is going to change their situation but themselves, and atleast make some steps at self improvement.
That was my problem before the Navy. All the opportunity in the world, but none of the maturity and drive neccesary to turn the opportunity into success.
The military is great like that, it puts things into perspective.
If every freeloader living off the fat of the government saw themselves the way most productive and accountable citizens see them, our country would be better off.
The Reaper
07-02-2007, 08:16
A program like that already exists. Its is called the United States Military. It will also make up for the deficiency that not all children's parents instill in them an adequate level of values.
I grew up in HUD housing, my parents still live paycheck to paycheck and most of my extended family has criminal records. I was a punk ass fat kid who had never ran a day in his life, living in poverty south of Boston and most of my associates were involved in some form of criminal activity. I wanted out, so I got off of my ass and went down to the USMC recruiter.
At almost 25 I am now happily married, own my own home in a very nice subrban neighborhood, I am going to college and other than said home I have less than $6K in total debt. This includes the debt for my graduate program (which will be paid off long before I graduate). I have no criminal record and I am working towards a career in Law Enforcement.
I acheived all of this through discipline, perseverence, hard work and the grace of God. All of which was facilitated by my time in the Corps. Anyone who is not a total lost cause can join the military, get away from their past with a clean slate and earn the tools to make a good life for themselves and their future generations.
You pointed to the fact that most of the people who disagree with you have QP under their names which denotes a higher level of discipline and motivation, I agree. I am not nor will I ever be able to attain what they have yet I still managed to get myself out of the "hood". If I can do it from where I started from and in the condition that I started, anyone can.
I am sorry, I will get off of my soapbox now.
That was a moving testimonial, thanks, Tubbs.
We sent an ODA down to New Orleans back in the 90s as a recruiting support effort during Red Cycle.
The TS was black, and so, most of the local kids wanted to talk to him.
He said that several 8-12 year olds wanted to know if his "government check" was in addition to his military pay. They thought that everyone in the US automatically received a welfare check, and didn't want to jeopardize theirs by joining the military. True story. After seeing the human sewage during and after Katrina, I believe him.
TR
blue02hd
07-02-2007, 09:51
Distorted.
I really enjoy a well versed debate, and have enjoyed your posts. I do not agree with you however.
Quote:
"I personally think that people who are sitting in cycles of poverty, welfare, and 'entitlement' are drains on society, who should simply not be supported. I also think that people who cannot even take care of themselves should not be permitted to have children, and that significantly more effort should be undertaken to reduce the number of people born into those sorts of situations. However, once a child is born into a bad situation, can you, as a parent with kids of your own really say that these kids should just be hung out to dry?"
This comment in particular alarmed me. I had to ask myself, how, and by what standard did you set yourself up as the Judge of who is disenfranchised, who is a drain on society, and who cannot care for themselves? I know you may try to throw statistics my way, and please do if you can, but the morality you are interjecting is a stretch to say the least. Is this Amerika, or is this America?
Our constitution guarantees us the Freedom to Pursue Happiness. One mans happiness may not be the same as yours. I would hate to have the government, or well edumacated college student like yourself begin to think for me. I would definitely hate to have my tax dollars pay for that free thought as well.
But I really will not go into much more of a response as I don't know your background as you know mine. Fill out your profile as instructed by the Admins, and then maybe your words may have some weight.
Until then, I am afraid you sound exactly like what you claim you are not. A socialist.
rubberneck
07-02-2007, 10:00
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Thomas A. Edison
The American dream is there for anyone willing to work for it. How is it that an illegal alien from Mexico can cross the border illegally and find work quickly while some of our fellow citizens couldn't/wouldn't if their life depended on it? The answer is easy. They aren't affraid to take crappy back breaking work for the chance to get ahead. That opportunity is there for every American regardless of race or location. The ones that are willing to work for it get ahead. The ones that put their hands out are the ones that don't. It is pretty straight forward.
We have too many people in this country that have been told for generations that it isn't their fault. That they are victim's, and that is the governments job to make things right for them. IMHO they are only owed the opportunity to access the American dream. Sadly too many pass on the opportunity to better their lives because it is easier to put your hand out than it is to labor at a lousy job. I'd be willing to bet you that there isn't a member here who doesn't know a person or had a relative that started life behind the eight ball and made something out of themselves. I can point to at least 4 in my family and 3 in my wifes.
The American dream is there for anyone willing to work for it. How is it that an illegal alien from Mexico can cross the border illegally and find work quickly while some of our fellow citizens couldn't/wouldn't if their life depended on it? The answer is easy. They aren't affraid to take crappy back breaking work for the chance to get ahead. That opportunity is there for every American regardless of race or location. The ones that are willing to work for it get ahead. The ones that put their hands out are the ones that don't. It is pretty straight forward.
Case in point:
A very nice peruvian family, (Mom, Dad, and daughter), moved here to Oklahoma five years ago, legally.
They did not speak any english, and took jobs at Pizza Hut. The mom decided to clean houses during her off hours. (they all worked 60 hours+ per week.) They all lived in a single studio apartment, and saved every penny.
This is when my family met her. Since then, the woman has graduated a College english class, become a CNA, and was nationalized last month as a permenent resident. She and her family bought their own home last year, and her daughter is now at University on Acedemic Scholorship, to study medicine.
This woman has been the sole care-taker for a disabled family member of mine for the last five years, and has become family to all of us. The work ethic of their whole family is motivating, to say the least.
It is the "American Dream", and for those who want it, it is there. :lifter
Holly
As a member of a partnership, I have to pay state income taxes in each state where my firm has an office.
RL -
Don't you know any good lawyers that can get you out of that? :D
A program like that already exists. Its is called the United States Military. It will also make up for the deficiency that not all children's parents instill in them an adequate level of values.
I grew up in HUD housing, my parents still live paycheck to paycheck and most of my extended family has criminal records. I was a punk ass fat kid who had never ran a day in his life, living in poverty south of Boston and most of my associates were involved in some form of criminal activity. I wanted out, so I got off of my ass and went down to the USMC recruiter.
At almost 25 I am now happily married, own my own home in a very nice subrban neighborhood, I am going to college and other than said home I have less than $6K in total debt. This includes the debt for my graduate program (which will be paid off long before I graduate). I have no criminal record and I am working towards a career in Law Enforcement.
I acheived all of this through discipline, perseverence, hard work and the grace of God. All of which was facilitated by my time in the Corps. Anyone who is not a total lost cause can join the military, get away from their past with a clean slate and earn the tools to make a good life for themselves and their future generations.
You pointed to the fact that most of the people who disagree with you have QP under their names which denotes a higher level of discipline and motivation, I agree. I am not nor will I ever be able to attain what they have yet I still managed to get myself out of the "hood". If I can do it from where I started from and in the condition that I started, anyone can.
I am sorry, I will get off of my soapbox now.
Tubbs, I always did like ya'll Marines!;)
Thank You for posting that, it was such a motivational post. I wish the youth of today could hear and appreciate it, instead of the latest Rap/Rock lyrics. You should be a motivational speaker! :lifter
Holly
He said that several 8-12 year olds wanted to know if his "government check" was in addition to his military pay. They thought that everyone in the US automatically received a welfare check, and didn't want to jeopardize theirs by joining the military. True story. After seeing the human sewage during and after Katrina, I believe him.
And there it is......
Most people have no idea how bad the problem really is. When I first started the PD, I would be gathering information for my reports and ask, "So where do you work?" Veteran officers would almost choke on their dip.....
Now I don't even ask (because 98% of the people that I interact with have never had a job), or I ask "What are you on disability for?"
Whenever a pregnant chick is involved in one of my calls, I usually ask how many kids she has..... it's a curiosity thing for me. I can't tell you how many times I have heard, "Im maxed out" as a response.... That means that the mother has had the max number of kids that she will receive money for (they cap it at 5, I think), so she is done having babies...... It's a bizarro world.
Everyone, and I mean everyone, is on disability, food stamps, subsidized housing, subsidized utilities, etc...... it's sickening. I went on a DV call where the dude and chick were living in a 3 bedroom apartment....it had an upstairs and downstairs, and it was nicer than any apt that I had ever had. I got to asking about what they were getting a month, and this is what I found out.....
The dude (who had whipped the chicks ass) was on disability for "depression," though he said that he didn't have a shrink or take meds for it..... must have been really bad, huh? He was receiving $770.00 a month tax free for his disability.
The female was on disability for asthma, and got about $600 a month, plus they had 4 kids for which they were getting $300 a piece. Their apt was subsidized, so they only had to pay $130 a month for it. Their utlilities were being paid by the govt, and they received an EBT (food stamp) card for all of their groceries.
So break this down......
His disability..................... $770.00
Hers..................................$600.00
Kids...................................$1200.00 ($300x4)
Food stamps......................$600.00
Thats about $3200 a month coming in, and it's tax free. On top of that, they only pay $130 a month for a $1000 a month apt, and they don't pay utilities.
Guess what the dude had in the driveway? Yup. An Escalade and a Caddy El Dorado. Mouth full of gold, and a closet that looked like a "Foot Locker" showroom.
I recently went with DFS to check on the welfare of some kids living in a crackhouse. Mom was 22, and had 5 kids by 5 different guys. The mother said that 2 were dead, 2 were in prison, and the 5th one was awol. The momma was bitching that she couldn't get govt housing because she had an outstanding gas bill...... so the DFS worker said that she would get the gas bill waived, and set the chick up with housing.
Funny, I don't remember anyone paying my bills when times were tough. My ass got a second job.
So I ask again, how do we stop it? I don't agree with paying people to be responsible, so what's the alternative?
frostfire
07-02-2007, 19:34
... study and work hard....I waited till I was 36 to get married,
Reaper Sir, you remind me of my dad. For all this faults, he is a hard-working and responsible man, who believes in investing in education for his children as opposed to leaving capital....For the last two years, worked part time at nights and on weekends.
Sounds just like one of my boss, a ret SF, CW4 Wyrick (he was in 7th group, also Just Cause. I wonder if you or NDD know him). Even in later years, he's still very productive in both supporting the military and inspiring/investing in the young generation.
Tubbs, your past reminds me of Vice Admiral Richard H. Carmona. http://www.hhs.gov/about/bios/sg.html Thank you for sharing. Folks on this site has been my constant inspiration to be an asset to the society. I have yet to take a summer break for the last 7 years. It's either school, research, and/or work.
Good discussion, all.
The Reaper
07-02-2007, 20:00
Reaper Sir, you remind me of my dad. For all this faults, he is a hard-working and responsible man, who believes in investing in education for his children as opposed to leaving capital.
Sounds just like one of my boss, a ret SF, CW4 Wyrick (he was in 7th group, also Just Cause. I wonder if you or NDD know him). Even in later years, he's still very productive in both supporting the military and inspiring/investing in the young generation.
Tubbs, your past reminds me of Vice Admiral Richard H. Carmona. http://www.hhs.gov/about/bios/sg.html Thank you for sharing. Folks on this site has been my constant inspiration to be an asset to the society. I have yet to take a summer break for the last 7 years. It's either school, research, and/or work.
Good discussion, all.
Bennie Lee lives!!
Hahaha! Invite him to stop by here.
TR
The Reaper
07-03-2007, 08:40
Personal responsibility? Buehler? Buehler? Anyone?
TR
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/07/you_cant_educate_democrats_abo.html
July 03, 2007
You Can't Educate Dems About Education
By Richard Cohen
The eight Democratic presidential candidates assembled in Washington last week for another of their debates and talked, among other things, about public education. They all essentially agreed that it was underfunded
-- one system "for the wealthy, one for everybody else," as John Edwards put it. Then they all got into cars and drove through a city where teachers are relatively well paid, per pupil spending is through the roof and -- pay attention here -- the schools are among the very worst in the nation. When it comes to education, Democrats are uneducable.
One candidate after another lambasted George Bush, the Republican Party and, of course, the evil justices of the Supreme Court. But not a one of them even whispered a mild word of outrage about a public school system that spends $13,000 per child -- third highest among big-city school systems -- and produces pupils who score among the lowest in just about any category you can name. The only area in which the Washington school system is No. 1 is in money spent on administration. Chests should not swell with pride.
The litany of more and more when it comes to money often has little to do with what, in the military, are called facts on the ground: kids and parents. It does have a lot to do with teachers unions, which are strong supporters of the Democratic Party. Not a single candidate offered anything remotely close to a call for real reform. Instead, a member of the audience could reasonably conclude that if only more money was allocated to these woe-is-me school systems, things would right themselves overnight.
Only one candidate, Barack Obama, suggested that maybe money was not all that was lacking when it comes to educating America's poor and minority children. Parents had a role to play, too. "It is absolutely critical for us to recognize that there are going to be responsibilities on the part of African-American and other groups to take personal responsibility to rise up out of the problems we face," he said. What? It's just not a question of funding?
Obama has said this sort of thing before. Back in March, in one of his first major speeches as a presidential candidate, he struck just the right balance -- not just more money, but more personal responsibility, too:
"Even as I fight on behalf of more education funding ... I have to also say that if parents don't turn off the television set when the child comes home from school and make sure they sit down and do their homework and go talk to the teachers and find out how they're doing ... I don't know who taught them that reading and writing and conjugating your verbs was something white."
I suppose it is easier for Obama to say these things because he is black and impervious to charges of racism. But black or white, white or black, Hispanic or Asian-American or whatever, kids are kids. We're talking about lives that could be salvaged and made productive and rich. The problem no longer is just underfunding or racial segregation, it is something else -- and we all know it. Yet, when the Supreme Court ruled last week that in most cases race could no longer be taken into account to achieve classroom diversity, the groans from the Democratic candidates suggested that something of great and tragic consequence had occurred. Jim Crow was at the schoolhouse door.
The reality, though, is that the court decision has almost no application to the big-city school systems we worry so much about. Most of these systems are overwhelmingly black or Hispanic. Washington has about 65,000 black students and about 3,500 whites; Los Angeles has about 1 million Hispanic students and 285,000 whites; Philadelphia has about 180,000 nonwhite students and 30,000 whites. New York's borough of the Bronx has about 200,000 black or Hispanic students and nearly as many Asian/Pacific Islanders as whites (9,000). "I can't do racial balancing," Joel Klein, New York City's innovative schools chancellor, told me. To him, it's a distant dream.
In so far as the Democratic presidential candidates talked about public school education and in so far as they mentioned the Supreme Court decision, they largely mouthed Democratic orthodoxy. It must have sounded reassuring to big-city education unions and politicians with a gift for exacerbating racial paranoia. But to the kid in the classroom, to a parent bucking the bureaucracy, the rhetoric must have sounded as unreal as the hot air that comes from Baghdad's Green Zone -- a "surge" of money instead of men or, as we used to say, throwing good money after bad.