View Full Version : Man with CCW permit kills robbery suspect
This story should give some of us, if not most, a nice BIG, Warm, Fuzzy, feeling inside.
Man with concealed-carry permit kills robbery suspect in Cleveland
Associated Press
CLEVELAND—A man who has a permit to carry a concealed gun shot and killed one of two teenage robbery suspects he encountered on his front porch, police said.
City prosecutors decided yesterday that the 25-year-old Cleveland man was justified and would not be charged in the shooting Saturday night of 15-year-old Arthur Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School.
Buford and another teen approached the man on his porch and one of the youths pulled a gun, prompting the resident to pull his gun and shoot Buford several times in the chest, police said.
Police took a .40-caliber Smith and Wesson from the man as evidence, according to a police report.
Toby Hoover, director of the Toledo-based Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said she had not heard of any other fatal shooting involving someone who has a permit to carry a concealed gun under the state's 3-year-old law.
About 30 youths gathered Monday at the intersection where Buford died and set up a memorial. His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned the decision against prosecuting the shooter.
"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."
Buford's alleged accomplice fled after and shooting and has not been caught. Police believe a .38-caliber handgun they found in the mail chute of a nearby house belonged to Buford or the other suspect, Lt. Thomas Stacho said.
The Reaper
04-24-2007, 16:13
It would appear that the community most affected by violent crime cares the least about stopping it.
TR
Why Is Pizza Shop Owner That Shot Armed Robber Having to Defend Himself?
Monday , April 23, 2007
By John Gibson
A story in the San Francisco Chronicle today describes a shooting in East Oakland in which a beloved young rapper was gunned down in the prime of life.
The rapper's nickname was Boonie, and not far from where he was shot dead a memorial has sprung up with flowers and hand-printed messages from his many friends in the neighborhood. "The world's gonna miss u," read one message.
It is all so sad. Police and members of the community call the shooting tragic. The cop investigating the shooting said the families are devastated. "There are no winners in this situation," he said, quoted in the San Francisco Chronicle.
Just another gang shooting, right? Another family burying one of their young adult sons, brothers, cousins.
Well, kind of. Actually Boonie was more than just another rapper. He was also a domestic abuser, a firearm brandisher, a convicted drug dealer, and on the day he died, an armed robber.
He and his swaggering crew of "rappers" came into a family owned pizza joint, Boonie stuck a 9mm in the face of the frightened owner and said this is a robbery. The owner's family was in the restaurant and he didn't know where this was going. He pulled a gun from beneath the counter and shot our young rapper hero dead.
The pizza owner might have had a parade down Market Street in San Francisco. Instead, he's scared. He won't even say he's glad he defended his family, and the cops are saying things like this from Officer Roland Holmgren, who said, "Who knows where the suspects were going to take the situation? But by no stretch of the imagination are we agreeing with or justifying what the owner did."
The owner defended himself and his family against a gun-wielding thug. The thug was shot dead. This is the way things should work.
Instead we have an Oakland cop actually saying he wants the citizens he is supposed to protect let themselves be victimized rather than defend themselves. Holmgren said: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."
Officer Holmgren, our rapper guy came to the pizza shop with a gun, which he pointed at the owner's head. I have one question for you: Do dead victims make good witnesses and good report-takers and good identifiers of suspects?
You need more people like the pizza shop owner in Oakland. Maybe the so-called rappers who moonlight as armed robbers will wake up one morning and read a newspaper and they'll figure it out.
That's My Word.
Watch John Gibson weekdays at 5 p.m. ET on "The Big Story" and send your comments to: myword@foxnews.com
Yes, young lady, your cousin is dead:D because he was a petty thief who tried to rob the wrong man.
My idea of Gun Contol - hitting your target.
I wonder if she would have turned her cousin in when she found out he had robbed some dude on a porch - NOT.
Pete
GreenSalsa
04-24-2007, 17:18
too bad the Pizza owner didn't attend Virgina Tech...
The problem with the public is they don't see / read often enough how guns SAVE lives. on another note Officer Roland Holmgren needs to be fired.
Instead we have an Oakland cop actually saying he wants the citizens he is supposed to protect let themselves be victimized rather than defend themselves. Holmgren said: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."
This is exactly what they are teaching our kids in government schools today. Never, ever fight back when assaulted by fellow students. Flee every time and let the staff handle it - they don’t; so the perpetrators continue and the victims continue to be victimized. (Sheep breeding)
About 30 youths gathered Monday at the intersection where Buford died and set up a memorial. His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned the decision against prosecuting the shooter.
This is why these minorities will never stop the cycle of poverty and violence. Putting a common criminal like this on a pedestal.
Buford and another teen approached the man on his porch and one of the youths pulled a gun, prompting the resident to pull his gun and shoot Buford several times in the chest, police said.
This isn't even about CCW, he was practically in his house.
"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead
No he is not free. Because of your dead Cousin he will have to live with the memory of killing someone the rest of his life, fear for his life and probably move away. His life will never be the same again.
Officer Roland Holmgren, who said, "Who knows where the suspects were going to take the situation? But by no stretch of the imagination are we agreeing with or justifying what the owner did."
And you wonder why calling 911 is not our first thought when threatened.
Beach Bum
04-24-2007, 20:15
About a year and a half ago a known drug dealer was killed, unfortunatley I do not recall how he died. The local news paper ran a story about him- each starting on the front page, every day for about 5 days. They happened to mention, once, that he had a criminal record but focused more on how he bought shoes and toys for the neighborhood children (IMO probably his kids anyway!) and how he was such a good brother and cousin and will be missed so much. There was more attention given to this piece of trash then what was given to the Pope when he passed away. This is just the type of thing that feeds into their victim mentality. Perhaps Tameka and Mr. Holmgren should get their heads out of their butts and get a clue!
"Who knows where the suspects were going to take the situation? But by no stretch of the imagination are we agreeing with or justifying what the owner did."
Are you kidding me!?!?!? Granted my crystal ball is broken, but I think I can hazard a guess as to where he was "going to take the situation."
The owner defended himself and his family against a gun-wielding thug. The thug was shot dead. This is the way things should work.
Instead we have an Oakland cop actually saying he wants the citizens he is supposed to protect let themselves be victimized rather than defend themselves. Holmgren said: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."
This is why I hope I never get stationed in California.
Goggles Pizano
04-25-2007, 04:33
Hmmmm... could you explain how your helping to fight crime in your community officer Holmgren while chewing upon your shoe? Asshat. :mad:
Unless officer Holmgren has a quantum mechanical device that allows him to be everywhere in his AO at the same time to protect innocents, he should be grateful that there are proactive Americans exercising the law of the land to save lives, just as he enforces the law of the land to save lives.
I remember the section in MSG Howe's book about people these days being brainwashed and conditioned to not fight back and just take it, and this is clearly a sign of the times.
$0.02
LongWire
04-25-2007, 07:53
Instead we have an Oakland cop actually saying he wants the citizens he is supposed to protect let themselves be victimized rather than defend themselves. Holmgren said: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."
In the Officers defense, I am sure that this is what they are required to say. In today's PC world, you cant exactly expect him to come out and say the Victim did the right thing, beside I'm sure he has some CI's in the crowd who may read the paper.
But this is exactly what that type of element feed off of. They are expecting us to cower and try to be witnesses, and come back to offer more threats if we try to help and prosecution efforts, because the cops are the few, and they are the many.
incommin
04-25-2007, 07:55
When I was in high school I remember being told that our system was great because it was based on the belief that it was better for ten guilty men to go free than on innocent man go to jail. I also remember being told that property was not as valuable as a human life so thieves and robbers should not be killed by someone protecting property.
After 15 years in law enforcement I no longer believe that. Seven to eight percent of a population commit 70 to 75 percent of the crimes in that area. Two to three percent of a population are psychopaths.
Any citizen who defends himself, family, or property is a hero in my book.....
I think the sheep do not like to be reminded that they are sheep and depend on others for their safety........
Jim
dr. mabuse
04-25-2007, 09:08
And we teach our students to do what you need to do, yet it may cost everything you have to defend yourself.
We have done tens of thousands of CHL's and only a few have been involved in shootings, yet the financial cost was high for some of them, and this is in gun-toting Texas.
One student (a senior citizen on crutches no less) was knocked down by a flying tackle from a robber wielding a straight-edged razor. He ended up shooting the dirtbag after several attempts to de-escalate. IIRC, it cost him over $40,000 to prove he did nothing wrong.
What is this country coming to?:mad:
It is sad that this PC Gone Wild society is making sheep out of our younger generation. What do you call a people that delegate to strangers, (e.g LEOS),
the task to defend yourself, property and loved ones?
Kudos to the Pizza parlor owner!!! He did the right thing.
A gun on hand is always better than a Cop on the phone!
Good thing the Thug did not survive, otherwise the lawsuits that would come
by the ACLU with the Lawyers from NYU would drive the victim out of business.
I'm with Pete 100%. Gun Control to me is to consistently hit your target with a hand-gun at 25 meters!
Sine-Pari
The Reaper
04-25-2007, 11:11
Not in any way sugesting that these acts were not justifiable, or that the world is not better off with these scumbags gone, but we need a quick dose of today's reality check before we go too far.
We have commented on it before here, but I feel that it merits repeating.
A lot of people seem to be looking for the opportunity to blast away at someone. That time has passed, in case you missed it, we no longer live in frontier days.
I will tell you that in my observation, even if you are in a location that respects an individual's right to protect himself and you are fully justified, you will likely still be in for a ton of civil exposure.
Every word and action will be examined in detail that makes NFL post-game analysis seem casual. Hours will be spent on expert debate of how you acted in a very few seconds, and why. People who know far more about homicide than us will look to prove your criminal intent, or at least negligence.
All it takes is an unscrupulous DA or prosecutor (see Duke LAX case), or a bad judge, and you can go to prison for a completely justifiable act.
The old saw about shooting someone outside your house and dragging the body in will quickly be seen as evidence of guilt, and will be detectable to anyone with rudimentary forensic experience.
At the very least, you will need a defense attorney before you make a statement to police, and for any hearings after that. Competent legal representation costs are in the hundreds of dollars per hour. You can go cheap, or public defender, at the risk of your freedom. What do you think the representation in the Duke rape case cost?
After you are released from all criminal liability (or maybe before), you will be besieged by the legal representatives of the estranged family members of the afore mentioned scumbag, who, while missing for most of his formative years, will now appear in front of the media and announce the goodness, intelligence, humanitarianism, artistic nature, and complete innocence, etc. of the armed and deceased felon, complete with a ten year-old photo of him as an elementary school honor student. For no money down, and a minor 15-50% of any judgement, these members of the Bar will force you to retain an equally or more talented and expensive civil attorney who will spend many hours protecting you from their attorneys, at the hourly rate of hundreds of your dollars, which a goodly portion will be required up front. The more assets you have to protect, the better (more expensive) attorney you need. Should you be fortunate enough, your insurance policy may cover a portion of this, or offer a settlement in lieu of trial. More likely, you will be seen as having operated outside the terms of your coverage, and will have to pay these fees yourself. By the time the case gets to court, the scumbag will be a choirboy and you will be a vicious/negligent killer, looking for trouble. If you are lucky, and your case/representation is better than theirs, you will be cleared of any civil judgement and will only have to pay thousands of dollars in unrecoverable attorney's fees. Should you be found liable, you may spend the rest of your life working to pay back the "family" and lawyers of the felon you justifiably killed.
Maybe the Oakland cop was trying to explain this and he did a poor job of it.
I am in no way encouraging people to act as sheep, or to fail to protect themselves, I am merely pointing out that even if you are completely justified, killing another human being has serious consequences.
Do not carry a weapon if you are not willing to use it.
Do not carry a weapon unless you know how to use it properly.
Understand your state and local laws on the use of deadly force.
You should probably have the phone numbers of at least a couple of criminal defense attorneys handy, just in case.
Do not draw your weapon unless you are prepared to justifiably employ lethal force.
Do not point your weapon at someone in an effort to intimidate them.
Do not shoot to wound in a lethal force engagement.
Make every attempt to avoid the use of lethal force, knowing the consequences.
If shooting must be done, better that the cops should shoot than you, they know the rules and have city attorneys and the union to help them.
If you have to shoot to defend your life, shoot as accurately as possible and fire only enough rounds to neutralize the threat. Remember what the cops say, every bullet fired has an attorney attached to it.
Be certain that every threat present has been neutralized. Scan everyone present for additional threats. Maintain your SA till LE arrives, and afterwards. Remember that the thug may have friends/family present or en route who may or may not be armed.
If you have not called 911, do so ASAP and state that there has been a shooting. Remember that the recorder is on and say nothing that might prejudice your case later. If you have them on the line prior to the shooting, remember that you will hear your words again. Asking the thug to drop his weapon, stating that you are in fear for your life, please stop, leave etc. will be viewed as good things. Threats, profanity, aggressive statements, etc. will not. Best not to answer questions like, "Who shot him", "Why did you do it", etc. I would think that putting the phone down after telling 911 the address, your description, and that there has been a shooting may be a good idea. Request medical assistance and LE response. Then wait.
Do not attempt to alter evidence at the scene, or allow others to. Ensure that no one removes the criminal's weapon either. You may wish to provide medical care to the person you shot. It will normally be seen as a positive gesture. Keep your mouth shut regardless.
When LE arrives, if you are still holding the weapon, put it down immediately, act in a non-threatening manner, and comply with all instructions by the officers. Keep your mouth shut, you may be traumatized. Be prepared to be cuffed and transported. If you are injured request medical treatment.
DO NOT MAKE ANY STATEMENT BEFORE YOU HAVE AN ATTORNEY PRESENT.
DO NOT WAIVE ANY RIGHTS.
Remember that LE is allowed to lie to you during questioning. If pressured to make a statement, tell them that you are too shaken to talk right now, and will give them one as soon as you recover. Get a lawyer first and let him do his job. Lawyering up may (or may not) be seen as an indication of guilt, but is not evidence of anything. Review what you are going to say in your statement with your attorney before making it. Do not answer any questions without him present.
Do not speak to the media. Let your lawyer do that.
Pray that you have reasonable cops, DAs, judges, and juries. In some areas, you are going to be guilty from the beginning. In that case, you should probably move. There are several citizens serving sentences right now for justifiable shootings. The minimum sentence rules cut both ways. If you have not been to a trial in your community recently, do not try to duck out of jury duty next time, go. I guarantee you that what you see will be a real eye opener.
If it is you or them, always better them, but make sure you understand the implications of your actions and have exhausted lesser ones. Nothing wrong with keeping a less than lethal response, like a can of OC or a stun gun handy, in case a lethal response is not justified.
Yes, it is a shame when defending yourself against someone who assaults you with a deadly weapon can cost you your freedom or your personal assets. Unfortunately, it is reality. I am not trying to discourage anyone from choosing to carry, or to employ deadly force to defend themselves. Understand that there are serious consequences before you strap that weapon on, start to draw it, or take up the slack in that trigger. Your life is about to change. Understand it, and make the right decisions.
This is just my .02, based on my observations, and is not intended to represent competent legal advice. Seek a local attorney for specific legal recommendations.
Good luck, especially to the citizens who shot the deserving thugs.
TR
Wise counsel Reaper. Much obliged to prepare for such nightmare.
Unfortunately you are correct. Even though I live in a state with very loose gun-laws,(Florida), I don't carry firearms on my person or vehicle. Having been a former military in special units and taught CQC I would have a double or triple burden to prove why it was necessary for me to use deadly force on an
un-trained civilian,(Thug/Gangster, etc), a lawyer friend advised me on this.
Some thought for most of us on this forum!?
incommin
04-25-2007, 13:13
TR, that was great, well thought out advise for anyone who carries a weapon.
The one thing to articulate if you are in a shooting situation is "felt threat (fear of loss of life or serious bodily harm) to yourself or of individuals near by". That will get you past most criminal issues.......does little for the civil court this is likely to follow.
In the past eight years we have had two shooting of dirt bags by civilian citizens. No charges. No civil suits.
Jim
In the past eight years we have had two shooting of dirt bags by civilian citizens. No charges. No civil suits.
Jim
I'd be willing to bet that folks in south Georgia take a different view than folks in some of the more liberal areas of the country.:D
Surprising article in yesterday's Cleveland Plain Dealer, regarding this issue. Surprising in that the PD is usually very anti-gun. I was surprised to see this in their editorial section.
The legal gun won this fight
Wednesday, April 25, 2007
Kevin O'Brien
Arthur Buford is dead, and that's a sad thing.
Arthur had his whole life ahead of him. He was just a kid, after all - a 15-year-old freshman at John F. Kennedy High School.
What he didn't know, as he approached Damon Wells' house in southeast Cleveland on Saturday night, was that his whole life consisted of just a few more seconds.
Arthur had a gun, which he and another youngster apparently thought would give them the power to take something from Wells, who was standing on the front porch.
Whatever Arthur's plan was, it unraveled. It didn't account for the possibility that the guy who looked like an easy mark would have permission from the state of Ohio to carry a concealed weapon, or that he would bother to arm himself just to walk to the neighborhood store and back.
Arthur's plan depended on catching Wells off-guard. But Wells wasn't off-guard. He had a plan of his own, against the day when someone like Arthur might come along.
Wells' plan was to avoid becoming a crime victim, and that's how Arthur ended up dying of several gunshot wounds to the chest.
Wells hasn't given The Plain Dealer much more than monosyllables, and I don't blame him. What would he say? That he's sorry he was prepared? That he's sorry he defended himself?
Unless he's a man without a conscience, he probably finds it regrettable that it came down to a him-or-me situation. But it's clear that he's not a man devoid of the desire to go on living, so he's got to be glad that it turned out to be "him, not me." But you can't just come out and say that sort of thing without the sensitivity police coming after you, so the less said the better.
The real police, however, aren't planning to charge Wells with anything. They say the shooting was justified.
It's just about impossible to argue that, but here come the arguments.
Arthur's relatives and friends are upset that the law isn't going after Wells.
They want someone to blame - other than Arthur. But they shouldn't be allowed to bully the police or the city administration into taking action against a guy who was minding his own business on his own porch when suddenly confronted by an armed teenager.
Then there's the conceptual side of the argument - the big-picture side that says citizens shouldn't be allowed to have guns and certainly shouldn't be allowed to walk around with them.
This kind of incident proves knee-jerk gun foes wrong, and they know it.
"This is one of the few where they actually used it [a legally carried concealed weapon] to stop a crime," Toby Hoover of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence grudgingly told a Plain Dealer reporter.
But there are more than a few such cases. There are thousands every year, all over the country.
And where are the statistics on gun crimes committed by holders of concealed-carry permits? Something tells me that if they happened at anything approaching the rate of the hundreds of thousands of crimes perpetrated against unarmed Americans every year, we'd be hearing more about them.
The fact is, the concealed-carry "threat" has turned out to be malarkey, just as it was in the many states that debated such laws long before Ohio.
Three of my last four columns have had to do with young people getting killed, and that's a sad thing. In two of those cases, a teenage boy was in the wrong place at the wrong time, doing wrong when someone shot him.
In the third, 32 college students were doing what they were supposed to do.
After I wrote about last week's outrage at Virginia Tech University, I got a series of sneering e-mails from a reader, along the lines of, "Next, you'll be suggesting that teachers should be armed."
I think I'll take him up on that.
Damon Wells is about the same age as the students killed at Virginia Tech. He's got his whole life still ahead of him, and because he was prepared, he'll actually get to live it - presuming he escapes thug-enforced street justice.
How different things might have been at Virginia Tech if Seung-Hui Cho hadn't had the only gun on campus.
O'Brien is The Plain Dealer's deputy editorial director.
To reach Kevin O'Brien
kobrien@plaind.com, 216-999-4146
one-zero
04-26-2007, 14:59
I'm not a reader of PD, but find that article to be quite refreshing - for any newspaper...He kept it simple and on target. Just wish some of our advocates who have a wider audience (especially TV) could do the same.
thanks,
1-0
one-zero
04-26-2007, 15:55
To add to TR's comments - here's some stuff from our GC at work (I've seen it in various forms over the years - but I'm always running these 4 through my head if a ordinary civvie situation starts getting yellow to orange):
Necessary Elements for Legally Justified Deadly Force.
>ABILITY - "The attacker must be physically able to carry out a deadly force attack".
The attacker has greater ability to cause physical harm than you - this is called disparity of force. The attacker is capable of causing you death or serious physical injury with his physical size or weapons. He may have a knife or gun, or if you are a woman, the attacker being a man is usually considered disparity of force. Multiple opponents or the fact that you are sick or injured may also be considered disparity of force.
>OPPORTUNITY - "The attacker must be close enough to use the ABILITY".
Before you could prevent the attack from harming you. For example, a man with a knife or contact weapon within 7 yards, a man with a handgun withing 25 yards. ((realize there may be opinions on distances, but these are based on legal precedents))
>JEOPARDY - "An attacker is placing or about to place a persons life in danger by using ABILITY and OPPORTUNITY".
Your spouse cutting food in the kitchen has ABILITY (knife) and OPPORTUNITY (both of you in small kitchen), but since they are not attacking you or about to attack you - they have not placed you in JEOPARDY. A burglar coming through your bedroom door with a gun in his hand has ABILITY (gun) and OPPORTUNITY (in your bedroom) and his aggressive entry tells you he is going to use his ABILITY/OPPORTUNITY to put your life in JEOPARDY.
>PRECLUSION - "You have precluded all other options".
The defender has taken every reasonable opportunity to remove themselves from the situation. This is NOT a legal requirement in most states, but is a prudent action to take. At no time should you attempt to retreat if retreating places you in more danger than defending yourself.
Comments:
TENGU: Don't know how many cases your lawyer friend has dealt with on this, but must disagree that FL has "loose gun laws", but rather those that empower the citizens. Also, as a member of the FL SWAT association I can tell you that training certainly hasn't shown to be a negative in self-defense shootings, but actually a PLUS as the individual was better able to articulate the 4 factors above. I'd hate to think you don't carry for the reasons you cited, since those who have much less training are carrying - and the criminals don't care; Choice between dead or being prepared to contend with legal after-affects. Just my thoughts, but we need for our better-trained, educated folks to carry.
ADDED EMPHASIS> (Quote TR): "When LE arrives, if you are still holding the weapon, put it down immediately, act in a non-threatening manner, and comply with all instructions by the officers. Keep your mouth shut, you may be traumatized. Be prepared to be cuffed and transported. If you are injured request medical treatment.
DO NOT MAKE ANY STATEMENT BEFORE YOU HAVE AN ATTORNEY PRESENT.
DO NOT WAIVE ANY RIGHTS."
Definately put away the weapon!! You don't want them to respond with you holding your gun - reholster if threats are clear. Sucks to be shot due to mis-identification by police after you lived through thug attack!!
Also, true you don't have to say anything other than fact you want counsel - BUT if the urge is there or your on an adrenaline pump and can't help what you've started....try to incorporate all for elements in your wording (Your lawyer sure as heck will when he gets on scene). For Example:
"Officer that person tried to kill me, I was in fear for my life...This has never happened to me before! I'm sure you understand how serious this is - I need to contact my lawyer before providing any statements..."
Many outcomes go to the defender in light of their SUBJECTIVE impressions along with the facts and circumstances known to the defender at the time. So later you find out it was a toy pistol and the shooter was a College kid playing that 'assassin' game (which is going to get somebody killed someday)....BLUF is you acted as a prudent person would be expected under similar circumstances - Cause it just might be a real gun with real intent. Civil charges could be ugly, but don't let the horror stories dictate your response as we are in a society that doesn't advertise the folks who live another day, and without repercussions...that just might embolden some sheep.:munchin
Apologize for length, irrelevance, or content if covered already in detail elsewhere.
1-0
Instead we have an Oakland cop actually saying he wants the citizens he is supposed to protect let themselves be victimized rather than defend themselves. Holmgren said: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."
My experience with local police.
Few years ago my wife shot at someone coming at her on our farm. First thing the accusing cops said to her was "why didn't you flee into the house" She's just blond on the outside, she replied "my kids were in the house and I didn't want to lead the threat to them" All charges dropped, problem solved. The was the second Gun incident we had. Expect to be treated no better then the common criminal and told your going to jail no matter how justified. Don't listen or talk to them.
Today we are still angry about how much we were threatened by the police. Dealing with the police was more stressful then the criminals. There seems to be a resentment from LEO toward people who use a gun for self defense. Not all, just from our experiences. I'm sure they deal with their share of idiots.
Bracholi
01-27-2008, 16:42
Hmm... I'll just carry a flashbang in my pocket from now on :-). A nice quick escape never hurts...
I looked into it... I'm in Ohio... will be 21 in June, already completed my CCW requirements when I worked security (though I couldn't carry anyway... just thought in the event I had the was in an emergency and there was some way of my procuring a handgun it'd be nice to be able to use it.) As for less than lethal... I thought about that before, a small collapsible baton, pepper spray, tasers... All illegal in my hands. Knife is the same way... Might be said I had intent to kill or cause harm even if I would be defending myself. The CCW offers some protection when you use a firearm to defend yourself... but other weapons seem to be another story...
When 21 I can shoot to kill in self defense... but if I mace/tase/baton in self defense I'm facing all sorts of charges and suits... It's as bad as shoot-to-wound.
This is all according to my CCW instructor... Unless anyone knows better.
The Reaper
01-27-2008, 17:08
Hmm... I'll just carry a flashbang in my pocket from now on :-). A nice quick escape never hurts...
I looked into it... I'm in Ohio... will be 21 in June, already completed my CCW requirements when I worked security (though I couldn't carry anyway... just thought in the event I had the was in an emergency and there was some way of my procuring a handgun it'd be nice to be able to use it.) As for less than lethal... I thought about that before, a small collapsible baton, pepper spray, tasers... All illegal in my hands. Knife is the same way... Might be said I had intent to kill or cause harm even if I would be defending myself. The CCW offers some protection when you use a firearm to defend yourself... but other weapons seem to be another story...
When 21 I can shoot to kill in self defense... but if I mace/tase/baton in self defense I'm facing all sorts of charges and suits... It's as bad as shoot-to-wound.
This is all according to my CCW instructor... Unless anyone knows better.
Not LE in your jurisdiction, but I can virtually guarantee that you will be in a lot less legal trouble OCing an assailant under justifiable circumstances than shooting him to death while carrying a stack of CCW permits.
TR
82ndtrooper
01-27-2008, 17:19
With all that has been said in thread I'd like to point one thing seems to be missing.
When DA's start to recognize that "deadly threat" means "deadly threat" the tide will turn towards more and more justified shootings by law abiding citizens to walk free from criminal and civil courts. An awful lot of DA's seem to think a pipe iron or baseball bat does not consitute a deadly threat vs a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen holding a valid concealed carry permit. I guess getting your fash bashed in or your noggin split apart doesn't constitute a deadly threat or bodily harm. :rolleyes:
A gun in the my hand is better than a cop on the phone.
Bracholi
01-27-2008, 18:49
Actually when I was a gun show I tried to get some OC... Said I needed to be 21... The irony of being able to buy a shotgun but not some self-defense life saving spray...
TR pretty much said everything on the last page, but as a LEO I would like to reinforce a couple of things......
If you shoot someone (in self defense), you will be transported and questioned. DO NOT talk to anyone until you have an attorney present. Don't do it. I don't care how cut and dried the situation is, just don't. People get themselves into more trouble trying to talk their way through things than you can possibly image. Just remember, you are listed as a suspect until the investigation is over..... act accordingly.
Also, just to restate the obvious, watch your mouths when making the 911 call..... I know that the adrenaline is pumping, and you have just been though a traumatic esperience, but take a deep breath and relax before making that call. DO NOT get on there, full of adrenaline, and say, "I just shot this m*therf*cker who tried to rob me! Not so tough now, are you? Huh? Piece of sh*t! You f*cked with the wrong dude." A simple, "A man just attacked me with a gun, I though he was going to kill me, and I shot him," will suffice.
Finally, as this vicitm was on his own private property, this is not a CCW matter.
blowfish
01-28-2008, 13:04
While I fear I am stating the obvious to the QPs and police officers on the forum, I am thinking that a well rounded CCW course should also include:
1) The experience of calling 911 after shooting the bad guy (using marker rounds, preferably Simunition or some other marker round using an actual firearm). and role playing with a trained 911 operator.
2) The experience of being placed under arrest by uniformed police officers, booked, and questioned. This should be as realistic as possible, and should include critique of questioning tactics to watch for, and how to handle oneself during this phase of the shooting.
In many ways the aftermath of the shooting is more complicated, and requires more situational awareness and skill than the shooting itself, or perhaps a different type of awareness and skill.
Team Sergeant
01-28-2008, 13:33
Also, just to restate the obvious, watch your mouths when making the 911 call..... I know that the adrenaline is pumping, and you have just been though a traumatic esperience, but take a deep breath and relax before making that call. DO NOT get on there, full of adrenaline, and say, "I just shot this m*therf*cker who tried to rob me! Not so tough now, are you? Huh? Piece of sh*t! You f*cked with the wrong dude." A simple, "A man just attacked me with a gun, I though he was going to kill me, and I shot him," will suffice.
Finally, as this vicitm was on his own private property, this is not a CCW matter.
You forgot the "Not so tough now, are you? THUMP" "You f*cked with the wrong dude" THUMP THUMP THUMP" "Piece of sh*t" THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP
[Note to self, do NOT kick body after shooting him eight times and while talking to the 911 dispatcher.]
TS
Not in any way sugesting that these acts were not justifiable, or that the world is not better off with these scumbags gone, but we need a quick dose of today's reality check before we go too far.
We have commented on it before here, but I feel that it merits repeating.
A lot of people seem to be looking for the opportunity to blast away at someone. That time has passed, in case you missed it, we no longer live in frontier days.
I will tell you that in my observation, even if you are in a location that respects an individual's right to protect himself and you are fully justified, you will likely still be in for a ton of civil exposure.
Every word and action will be examined in detail that makes NFL post-game analysis seem casual. Hours will be spent on expert debate of how you acted in a very few seconds, and why. People who know far more about homicide than us will look to prove your criminal intent, or at least negligence.
All it takes is an unscrupulous DA or prosecutor (see Duke LAX case), or a bad judge, and you can go to prison for a completely justifiable act.
The old saw about shooting someone outside your house and dragging the body in will quickly be seen as evidence of guilt, and will be detectable to anyone with rudimentary forensic experience.
At the very least, you will need a defense attorney before you make a statement to police, and for any hearings after that. Competent legal representation costs are in the hundreds of dollars per hour. You can go cheap, or public defender, at the risk of your freedom. What do you think the representation in the Duke rape case cost?
After you are released from all criminal liability (or maybe before), you will be besieged by the legal representatives of the estranged family members of the afore mentioned scumbag, who, while missing for most of his formative years, will now appear in front of the media and announce the goodness, intelligence, humanitarianism, artistic nature, and complete innocence, etc. of the armed and deceased felon, complete with a ten year-old photo of him as an elementary school honor student. For no money down, and a minor 15-50% of any judgement, these members of the Bar will force you to retain an equally or more talented and expensive civil attorney who will spend many hours protecting you from their attorneys, at the hourly rate of hundreds of your dollars, which a goodly portion will be required up front. The more assets you have to protect, the better (more expensive) attorney you need. Should you be fortunate enough, your insurance policy may cover a portion of this, or offer a settlement in lieu of trial. More likely, you will be seen as having operated outside the terms of your coverage, and will have to pay these fees yourself. By the time the case gets to court, the scumbag will be a choirboy and you will be a vicious/negligent killer, looking for trouble. If you are lucky, and your case/representation is better than theirs, you will be cleared of any civil judgement and will only have to pay thousands of dollars in unrecoverable attorney's fees. Should you be found liable, you may spend the rest of your life working to pay back the "family" and lawyers of the felon you justifiably killed.
Maybe the Oakland cop was trying to explain this and he did a poor job of it.
I am in no way encouraging people to act as sheep, or to fail to protect themselves, I am merely pointing out that even if you are completely justified, killing another human being has serious consequences.
Do not carry a weapon if you are not willing to use it.
Do not carry a weapon unless you know how to use it properly.
Understand your state and local laws on the use of deadly force.
You should probably have the phone numbers of at least a couple of criminal defense attorneys handy, just in case.
Do not draw your weapon unless you are prepared to justifiably employ lethal force.
Do not point your weapon at someone in an effort to intimidate them.
Do not shoot to wound in a lethal force engagement.
Make every attempt to avoid the use of lethal force, knowing the consequences.
If shooting must be done, better that the cops should shoot than you, they know the rules and have city attorneys and the union to help them.
If you have to shoot to defend your life, shoot as accurately as possible and fire only enough rounds to neutralize the threat. Remember what the cops say, every bullet fired has an attorney attached to it.
Be certain that every threat present has been neutralized. Scan everyone present for additional threats. Maintain your SA till LE arrives, and afterwards. Remember that the thug may have friends/family present or en route who may or may not be armed.
If you have not called 911, do so ASAP and state that there has been a shooting. Remember that the recorder is on and say nothing that might prejudice your case later. If you have them on the line prior to the shooting, remember that you will hear your words again. Asking the thug to drop his weapon, stating that you are in fear for your life, please stop, leave etc. will be viewed as good things. Threats, profanity, aggressive statements, etc. will not. Best not to answer questions like, "Who shot him", "Why did you do it", etc. I would think that putting the phone down after telling 911 the address, your description, and that there has been a shooting may be a good idea. Request medical assistance and LE response. Then wait.
Do not attempt to alter evidence at the scene, or allow others to. Ensure that no one removes the criminal's weapon either. You may wish to provide medical care to the person you shot. It will normally be seen as a positive gesture. Keep your mouth shut regardless.
When LE arrives, if you are still holding the weapon, put it down immediately, act in a non-threatening manner, and comply with all instructions by the officers. Keep your mouth shut, you may be traumatized. Be prepared to be cuffed and transported. If you are injured request medical treatment.
DO NOT MAKE ANY STATEMENT BEFORE YOU HAVE AN ATTORNEY PRESENT.
DO NOT WAIVE ANY RIGHTS.
Remember that LE is allowed to lie to you during questioning. If pressured to make a statement, tell them that you are too shaken to talk right now, and will give them one as soon as you recover. Get a lawyer first and let him do his job. Lawyering up may (or may not) be seen as an indication of guilt, but is not evidence of anything. Review what you are going to say in your statement with your attorney before making it. Do not answer any questions without him present.
Do not speak to the media. Let your lawyer do that.
Pray that you have reasonable cops, DAs, judges, and juries. In some areas, you are going to be guilty from the beginning. In that case, you should probably move. There are several citizens serving sentences right now for justifiable shootings. The minimum sentence rules cut both ways. If you have not been to a trial in your community recently, do not try to duck out of jury duty next time, go. I guarantee you that what you see will be a real eye opener.
If it is you or them, always better them, but make sure you understand the implications of your actions and have exhausted lesser ones. Nothing wrong with keeping a less than lethal response, like a can of OC or a stun gun handy, in case a lethal response is not justified.
Yes, it is a shame when defending yourself against someone who assaults you with a deadly weapon can cost you your freedom or your personal assets. Unfortunately, it is reality. I am not trying to discourage anyone from choosing to carry, or to employ deadly force to defend themselves. Understand that there are serious consequences before you strap that weapon on, start to draw it, or take up the slack in that trigger. Your life is about to change. Understand it, and make the right decisions.
This is just my .02, based on my observations, and is not intended to represent competent legal advice. Seek a local attorney for specific legal recommendations.
Good luck, especially to the citizens who shot the deserving thugs.
TR
Wow, Sir. That was outstanding advice. Thanks very much for taking the time to type this.
I have read all of the comments offered on this thread. T R your thoughts are outstanding and everyone should take them to heart. I am just glad that I live in Mississippi and grew up with my county sheriff.
One thing to remember, once you pull the trigger, you can never ever take the round back. Be very sure why you shoot because you will live with it for the rest of your life.
clapdoc sends.
You forgot the "Not so tough now, are you? THUMP" "You f*cked with the wrong dude" THUMP THUMP THUMP" "Piece of sh*t" THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP
[Note to self, do NOT kick body after shooting him eight times and while talking to the 911 dispatcher.]
Sweet!, TS
Down in L.A. (that's Lower Alabama) where I hail from, there are literally signs in various parts of the country-side tacked to people's porches that read:
WE DON'T DIAL 911
Most of these signs are, of course, hand painted.
My ex never understood why living 45 minutes from anywhere even remotely resembling civilization warranted my sleeping with my 1911 under my pillow.
:D
Mick
Most that post here know of this area on Yadkin Road, about 1/2 down Yadkin to the Hardee's.
http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=286661
Hmmm.
Horseshoe Road, off Yadkin, is an interesting neighborhood.
Down in L.A. (that's Lower Alabama) where I hail from, there are literally signs in various parts of the country-side tacked to people's porches that read:
WE DON'T DIAL 911
Most of these signs are, of course, hand painted.
If I can add something here........
I often hear people say "I won't call 911," or "we don't call 911 till it's all said and done," but as a LEO I would recommend (if it is practical, safe, and possible) to call 911 before confronting an intruder on your property.
You don't have to give any explanation, just whisper "help" and leave the line open or hang up. It takes 2 seconds.
The reason?
Well, as much as all of us would like to think that were are invincible, there always exists the minute chance that we may be severly outnumbered, or that the suspect may somehow get the drop on us. Hell, a weapon could jam, you name it.....
If you get that 911 call in, at least you know that help is on the way in the even that you get severly injured/disabled, and are unable to call for help.
I am not saying that we should rely on LE for our protection, just that it never hurts to get backup started (especially if they are coming from a distance) as soon as possible.
That's why we keep a cordless phone by our bed. It is there for one reason --- emergency calls. That way, if we hear someone break in, I can grab it and dial 911 really quickly before venturing out into the house to bust a cap in someone's ass.