View Full Version : illegal immigration
I know there has been a fair amount of discussion related to the issue of illegal immigration and illegal immigrants. However, after being out and about in Southern California recently and rubbing elbows with folks who appear to be illegal immigrants, it’s appears the problem has reached epidemic proportions.
Now I know that all the folks I interact with are not illegal. However, common sense tells me that a certain percentage of them are illegal and that percentage is so high that it’s a problem. But what is the real problem? Is it illegal immigration or is it the perception that the rights under the law of citizens are just slightly higher then those who are illegal? I believe one of the biggest problems is that we see illegals and resident aliens having virtually the same rights as citizens.
It’s a practical situation also. If there are punitive measures for illegal aliens under the law that are not enforced, does it really matter if the punitive measures exist? If they are not practically applied then they do not exist of all intensive purposes and again there is the question of the degree of disparity between citizens and non citizens under the law.
Therefore, I believe there should be a general reorganization of the laws related to citizenship. The benefits accruing to citizens should leave no doubt as to the favorable status of being a citizen.
In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul is being roughed up by a Roman Centurion. When the Centurion learns Paul is in fact a citizen, the Hebrew says he turns white as he relizes the penalty for roughing up or torturing a citizen is death. I guess this is along the lines of what I’m thinking. Due process for citizens should be different.
The rate of income taxes should be substantially different for citizens. So substantial that resident and illegal aliens should be very motivated to become citizens.
I'm mean who fight the wars? Who protects our way of life? Should there not be some superb benefit associated with the related responsibilities? Does any of this make sense?
Roguish Lawyer
03-16-2007, 01:17
What exactly is the problem?
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-16-2007, 05:16
Due process for citizens should be different.
Does any of this make sense?
Guess I'm not really sure what you are trying to say, however "law of the land is the law of the land" and in my simple way of looking at things if you are on the land you obey the law regardless of your "status". It also seems to me that some resident aliens seem to have greater respect for this "land" than do many of the "favored" citizens. You ask who fights the wars, check the ranks of the military, you might be surprised how many resident aliens fill the ranks and how many of the "favored" citizens shun any sense of responsibility or duty to their "land". As far as illegals, illegal is illegal is illegal. We have too many "favored" citizens that choose not to enforce the "law of the land" that enables illegals to stay here but many of those that are here seem to be contributing to the well being of "favored" citizens by performing services that benefit the "favored" citizens and for which, with the exception of those that are being put out of work by this influx, don't seem to mind. The arguments about this are many and heated. As far as your observation, what makes you so sure that if any new "laws of the land" enacted that will benefit the "favored' citizens will be enforced any more vigorously than those currently on the books that are not?
Team Sergeant
03-16-2007, 09:14
it’s appears the problem has reached epidemic proportions.
What part of the 10-20 MILLION illegal alien estimates reported in the last few years didn't you understand?:rolleyes:
I live in Arizona, every other vehicle on the road is sporting a mexican flag, "immigration" I don't think so.
TS
The Reaper
03-16-2007, 09:44
I think the operative word here is "ILLEGAL".
Arrest and immediate deportation for first offenders is probably the best we can hope for.
Frankly, I could support lopping off a hand instead, but I know that we do not have the huevos to do that. Complete militarization of the border with mines and troops to go with the fence would be another solution. Mexico does nothing because it is a pressure release valve for the unemployed and dampens social unrest to have that many citizens living elsewhere and sending money home. There is also significant corruption in the Mexican government, LE, and military that supports drug smuggling and other illegal activities across the border that are detrimental to our society.
I know of no other industrialized country that allows the flagrant border violations and invasion that we do.
Immigrants should be allowed to apply for a visa, approved only if their skills are needed, and tracked while here to make sure that they obey the laws and go home when their permits expire. Those who prove themselves to be trustworthy and useful should be allowed to apply for permanent residency.
Eventually, the terrorists are going to use the porosity of the border to mount an operation against us, and everyone will be asking why we didn't do more to stop it.
We lack the intestinal fortitude as a nation today to do what is right, and just.
TR
What part of the 10-20 MILLION illegal alien estimates reported in the last few years didn't you understand?:rolleyes:
I live in Arizona, every other vehicle on the road is sporting a mexican flag, "immigration" I don't think so.
TS
Sir, I concur FWIW.
Here is something interesting: I was told by my college mentor NOT to take my desired language, German. He told me that in the future, Spanish will help me live in our Country easier. This coming from a staunch right-wing, non-pc, individual. :eek:
Holly
p.s......am going to take German anyway.
.....I live in Arizona......TS
I could say something cute about AZ being one of the central states of Altzan but things have gone rapidly past saying cute things on that subject.
Replacing a culture used to be done out in the open in the old days. Come in buring, killing, destroying, set up your own culture and live content.
Now days it's immigration. Funny how many cultures think their country is a rat hole so they come here. They then start trying to replace our culture with their's.
I can only shake my head.
Replacing a culture used to be done out in the open in the old days. Come in buring, killing, destroying, set up your own culture and live content.
When the people who's land you are invading roll over and look the other way. No need to burn and destroy.
Eventually, the terrorists are going to use the porosity of the border to mount an operation against us, and everyone will be asking why we didn't do more to stop it.
Probably already crossed over. Especially with all the publicity about how easy it is. It will be interesting to see how the Government spins the story. Or who they blame for doing nothing to stop the enemy from crossing the border with Mexico.
Eventually, the terrorists are going to use the porosity of the border to mount an operation against us, and everyone will be asking why we didn't do more to stop it.
Unfortunately I believe this is the only scenario where politicians will find it politically 'feasible' to do the right thing because they have the public support. Going out on a limb and staking a preventative position is far more risky to their grasp on power than being reactive, screaming bloody murder, and make a dog and pony show of how they'll correct the problem when encountered.
Addressing the root cause of an issue and taking action on it is far more work than letting the problem fester and once it boils over, letting everyone else do the work for you while one appears to be contributing (in reality merely riding the bandwagon).
What exactly is the problem?
Interesting question, and I’m assuming it’s a legitimate one and not just an attempt to stir the pot.
To begin with, the exact problem is simply illegal immigration and it's associated costs and ills. The adverse effects of this problem are many and varied and ultimately encompass more then just the economic considerations. To a certain extent we can quantify the economic costs; others are more esoteric but probably more costly and damaging in the long run. The first is illustrated by the following quote from the weblink below:
Illegal immigration costs the taxpayers of California — which has the highest number of illegal aliens nationwide — $10.5 billion a year for education, health care and incarceration, according to a study released yesterday.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041206-102115-6766r.htm
This $10.5 billion represents hard costs or those which can be directly identified. However, it does not include the soft costs, such as the cost of the crimes which were committed by the illegal aliens.
The incarceration costs did not include judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes committed by illegal aliens that led to their incarceration.
Without going into expansive elaboration, the first problem is simply the cost of illegal immigration.
In assessing the above cost, we must also weigh the "opportunity cost"; meaning what could we have done with this money if it wasn't spent on illegal immigration? I think most of us can come up with a few good ways to spend $10 billion on an annual basis.
Secondly, I personally believe that illegally immigration has a greater cost which is the negative impact on our culture and values. I believe these values are the unique characteristic that defines us as Americans and the erosion of them can and will have a negative impact on our morale, our cohesion and our ability to maintain our preeminent position as a global power. To a large extent, the very things which make us unique as Americans will simply disappear.
What part of the 10-20 MILLION illegal alien estimates reported in the last few years didn't you understand?
Understanding the sweet science of a right cross is one thing. Getting hit by one in the nose by one really communicates. :D I guess it the cumulative effect of illegal immigration just hit me the other day when I found myself wondering why I live where I live.
When I found myself researching New Zealand, then I began to worry.
Roguish Lawyer
03-17-2007, 13:29
Interesting how no one pays any attention to the benefits of illegal immigration. I am not going to rehash what already has been debated ad nauseum in other threads, but the problem is not immigration or illegal immigration, but rather the existence (and extent) of misguided public benefit programs and the lack of adequate border security (against security threats, not migrant workers).
No offense to anyone here, but I believe that this is a false issue driven almost entirely by xenophobia. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are hard-working, good people who we need to do work that most Americans are too lazy (or at least unwilling) to do. To the extent they are not paying taxes, it is because the system deters them from integrating into society. Our country gets softer every day, and I'm tired of people blaming their own personal failures and frustrations on immigrants.
The legal vs. illegal distinction is a red herring -- it is just about impossible to immigrate here legally from Mexico, for example. So maybe we should just tear down the Statue of Liberty since so many people don't seem to believe in what it stands for.
BTW, I know I am speaking for many others who have PM'd me on this topic but who are afraid to offend anyone here by calling a spade a spade. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I know there are people against illegal immigration who are not xenophobes, but frankly I think those people are the exception, not the rule.
So apologies to anyone offended by what I've said here, but that's what I really think. :boohoo
Team Sergeant
03-17-2007, 13:42
Interesting how no one pays any attention to the benefits of illegal immigration. I am not going to rehash what already has been debated ad nauseum in other threads, but the problem is not immigration or illegal immigration, but rather the existence (and extent) of misguided public benefit programs and the lack of adequate border security (against security threats, not migrant workers).
No offense to anyone here, but I believe that this is a false issue driven almost entirely by xenophobia. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are hard-working, good people who we need to do work that most Americans are too lazy (or at least unwilling) to do. To the extent they are not paying taxes, it is because the system deters them from integrating into society. Our country gets softer every day, and I'm tired of people blaming their own personal failures and frustrations on immigrants.
The legal vs. illegal distinction is a red herring -- it is just about impossible to immigrate here legally from Mexico, for example. So maybe we should just tear down the Statue of Liberty since none of you believe in what it stands for.
BTW, I know I am speaking for many others who have PM'd me on this topic but who are afraid to offend anyone here by calling a spade a spade. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I know there are people against illegal immigration who are not xenophobes, but frankly I think those people are the exception, not the rule.
So apologies to anyone offended by what I've said here, but that's what I really think. :boohoo
How many illegals live on your block or work within a mile of your home? What do you know about the crime stats or the drug stats as related to illegals? I'm guessing not much....
xenophobia is not a word Special Forces soldiers use.
What I do know is that in any successful revolution you've got to kill all the lawyers.......:munchin
Roguish Lawyer
03-17-2007, 13:49
How many illegals live on your block or work within a mile of your home?
Hard to count, but I am sure at least hundreds, if not thousands. I live in Southern California -- illegal immigrants are everywhere.
What do you know about the crime stats or the drug stats as related to illegals? I'm guessing not much....
You guess incorrectly. My view is that crime and drugs are separate issues. I have good solutions for them too. :D
The Reaper
03-17-2007, 13:55
I do not think that we need 15-20 million people here illegally who do not want to be Americans. My family has been here since the early 1700s, and they were all legal immigrants, except for my Grandmother, who was a Cherokee.
This started with a few Mexicans coming here illegally, and now has spread throught Central America as well, with groups of illegals now coming from as far south as Panama.
A temporary guest worker program would be acceptable to me, if we enforced the laws against those here illegally in violation of that program as well as the companies who employ them, denied all social services to illegals, amended Section 1 of the 14th Amendment to eliminate anchor babies, made the penalties more severe for committing a crime while being here illegally, and sealed the border as best we can.
Call me a xenophobe, but I suspect that I have spent far more of my life living and working with foreign people than the average American. As a teenager, I worked alongside migrants in tobacco fields. I do not think that after my service and sacrifice for this country my opinion should be invalidated or categorized by someone calling me a name.
And that is what I really think.
TR
The Reaper
03-17-2007, 13:58
Hard to count, but I am sure at least hundreds, if not thousands. I live in Southern California -- illegal immigrants are everywhere.
I have been to your house too, amigo, and I find this very hard to believe, unless they are living in servant's quarters nearby or the country club provides lodging to laborers.
TR
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-17-2007, 14:22
xenophobia is not a word Special Forces soldiers use.
Isn't that the truth. Many of us have spent time in other parts of the world, sometimes legally and sometimes other than "legally", working with folks who have the balls to stay in their own country and fight to make their country a better place to live or die trying. We don't often get a chance to work with those who decided to flee and live elsewhere illegally to enjoy the freedoms others have worked and died to maintain as that country's legal resident. They probably are productive, they probably are nice folks, but they are also cowards, leeches, and illegal. Just a perspective from an old guy.
Roguish Lawyer
03-17-2007, 14:25
I have been to your house too, amigo, and I find this very hard to believe, unless they are living in servant's quarters nearby or the country club provides lodging to laborers.
TR
Come back, and let's survey the area within a one-mile radius. Every day, there are men who I believe to be illegal immigrants selling fruit on my street less than a couple of hundred yards from my house. There are homeless guys sleeping most nights less than a thousand yards from my house. There is a relatively low-income neighborhood less than a quarter-mile from my house where there are drive-by shootings and stores where few customers speak English.
The Reaper
03-17-2007, 14:30
One of the first questions to be asked has to be, why are there not more good employment opportunities in Mexico, a major exporter of oil?
It isn't like Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are significantly better places geographically than the Mexican states a few meters south. Why are our states prosperous, and theirs less so?
Perhaps corruption and inequitable distribution of wealth at home are the reasons. Can we help fix that?
What is the Mexican government doing to remedy this problem, while we absorb huge numbers of their unemployed/underemployed and provide social services to them at little or no cost? Is this supposed to be a permanent assistance program? When do the American citizens who are here legally get to vote on this plan?
Would the government of Mexico continue to have the lax attitude and overt enablement of the border crossers if we were returning well-armed and well-trained anti-government insurgents to their territory?
TR
RL,
About illegal immigrants doing the jobs Americans won't, please read this article (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:7iFeiFUjyYgJ:www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0314robb14.html+tilting+the+labor+market&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=se&client=firefox-a). It seems you are mistaken. As the article says: "a stagnant or declining price of something is not an indication of a shortage of it".
I need advise on immigration, RL. The problem is worse than for the alien graduates of US Universities, who Bill Gates is unable to hire because of visa restrictions (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/473893dc-ccde-11db-a938-000b5df10621.html). I am a quicker learner, but I don't have any degree and certainly have trouble finding a company that would want to sponsor a petition for five years, minimum (http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_3169.html).
No girl has wanted to marry me yet, which can still take years and cost thousands of dollars if you hire a lawyer or have trouble with luck. I am in a lottery to gain eligibility. I am trying to figure out what skills I can acquire that would make me both attractive to a company and be useful while in the Army - the goals are mostly at odds, but I am starting to think TR was right when he adviced on becoming even nerdier. Maybe, just maybe, that can land a temporary work permit.
Do you think it would be better if I just came over and waited for the amnesty?
Being handed an unfortunate lot or spot in life does not mean that you are in a legal or morally sound position to lie and break laws at will. It does not give you any right to tear slits in the fabric of a nation generations have worked and bled for. When circumstances permit such measures, we should be talking about insurgency, coups and revolutions, not immigration. Not that my upbringing was too bad, I have my own reasons for legal migration.
What other laws do you think should be ignored?
Martin
Team Sergeant
03-17-2007, 17:24
Interesting how no one pays any attention to the benefits of illegal immigration.
I've thought about this and have come to this conclusion, I'd rather not think about the "benefits" of any illegal activity.
We have lots of crime, "benefits" more police.
9/11 "benefits"; billions spent on local and national security.
Tons of drugs entering our country yearly, "benefits" new technology to detect illegal drugs.
I can do without the illegal "benefits" due to illegal activity.
Balls in your court.;)
Team Sergeant
Roguish Lawyer
03-17-2007, 18:44
What other laws do you think should be ignored?
I am in favor of changing the law, not ignoring it.
Changing the law to what?
If anything, the law should stay as it is.
Enforce it. There are no benifits to illegal immigration to this nation as a whole.
Case in point: berries get picked by illegals.
No illegals to pick berrys?
Berry price goes up in order to pay CITIZENS that work in the fields
I'd pay more for berries if it meant that it was going to be money that stayed in the US and fed a citizen and his family, not just trying to run his pregnant wife over the border so his daughter gets grandfathered in due to being born on american soil.
The vast majority of illegal immigrants are hard-working, good people who we need to do work that most Americans are too lazy (or at least unwilling) to do.
To quote Penn & Teller, bullshit. They do the work at a wage that state and federal tax-paying, Social Security paying, Medicare paying, health insurance paying employees and employers simply can't afford to beat. Since it seems society has forgotten the adage "you get what you pay for", the driving principle seems to be "how cheap can you do this", rather than "what will I get for my money". Living in central Colorado, I see this on a regular basis in the construction (read 'basically unskilled labor') field.
Surf n Turf
03-17-2007, 21:45
The vast majority of illegal immigrants are hard-working, good people who we need to do work that most Americans are too lazy (or at least unwilling) to do.
RL,
That most might be hard working, good people may well be true ---- but so what -- they violated our laws in coming here
I don't believe that most Americans are lazy, or unwilling to work --- As I explain below --- it's the wages
I oppose Illegal immigration (from any country) into America for three (3) basic reasons, none of which have anything to do with being xenophobic. I say this as a first generation American, whose wife and children are foreign born. My wife is a naturalized citizen, and my children received their citizenship as a birthright from me.
1. Illegal immigration is illegal – we are a sovereign nation with laws governing who, and under what circumstances, we allow people from foreign lands to legally enter our country. When people come here without our permission, they are breaking our laws, even if the “vast majority of illegal immigrants are hard-working, good people”. Additionally we have the largest and most robust legal immigration policy of any nation. We welcomed 1,122,373 legal immigrants in 2005 (source = Http://www.visalaw.com/06dec2/12dec206.html)
2. Illegal immigration drives down wages. I know you will have a hard time recognizing this problem, as not many Illegal Immigrants are Lawyers, so you face little competition from This mass migration into our Country . But is does dramatically effect wages for many skilled, and semi-skilled American workers, especially in the building trades. My Father was a plumber, and earned $27 ph in the early ‘80’s. Plumbers in our area now average $10 - $12 ph. The way it works here (because a house must be passed by a “certified” plumber), is the contractors hire 15 –20 illegals to do the plumbing, and hires one (1) American licensed plumber to certify the plumbing work in all the houses constructed by the contractor. That’s jobs for 15-20 American plumbers, that are not lazy, nor unwilling to work.
3. Illegal immigration is dangerous. We have no knowledge about the person who enters our country illegally. We do not know if they mean us good or ill, if they have a Communicable Diseases, if they are criminals, drug dealers, gang-bangers, or democrats. We do know that many are arrested, tried, and convicted on felony offenses. Incarceration rates for illegals are hard to come by, but range from estimates of 10% to 30% of our entire prison population.
In short, I see NO benefit for having any Illegal immigrant in this country. I strongly support (and hire) legal immigrants --- after I have exhausted a search for a qualified American Citizen.
SnT
CoLawman
03-18-2007, 00:34
You guess incorrectly. My view is that crime and drugs are separate issues. I have good solutions for them too. :D[/QUOTE]
RL you cannot really be serious about separating crime and drugs from the illegal immigration issue. There is a clear nexus to methamphetamine, cocaine, and the resulting crime to Mexican nationals in our country. The Mexican national represents the entire supply side of the narcotics equation.
The majority of the Mexican nationals in this country are law abiding citizens, but the 15 to 20 percent of them that are not, create one heck of a threat.
I vacation frequently in Mexico so am obviously not a xenophobe. ;)
CoLawman
03-18-2007, 00:59
RL, These statistics might cause you to rethink your position on illegal immigrants. You can continue to believe that illegal immigration is a figment of the xenophobes imagination, but you do so at your own peril. Note to sympathizers: Do not read these reports if you are unprepared to accept how great a threat illegal immigration poses to us and our country.
http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05646r.html
Number of convicted criminal aliens;
Inmates incarcerated in federal prison on December 27, 2003: 46,063;
Inmates incarcerated by state prisons and local jails between July 1,
2002, and June 30, 2003, and submitted to SCAAP for reimbursement:
262,105.
For our study population of 55,322 illegal aliens:
* They were arrested for at least a total of nearly 700,000 criminal
offenses, averaging 13 offenses per alien.
* Number of illegal aliens in our study population: 55,322.
* Total number of arrests[B]: 459,614.
* Total number of criminal offenses: 691,890.
* Average number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 13.
* Median number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 10.
[A] One arrest incident may include multiple offenses.
Criminal offense: Homicide;
Total offenses: Number: 5,992
Criminal offense: Sex offense;
Total offenses: Number: 11,833
Criminal offense: Robbery;
Total offenses: Number: 15,305
Criminal offense: Drugs;
Total offenses: Number: 166,722
In closing let me add that this does not include the thousands and thousands of outstanding warrants for illegal aliens who have fled back to their country to avoid prosecution for the above listed crimes.
To quote Penn & Teller, bullshit. They do the work at a wage that state and federal tax-paying, Social Security paying, Medicare paying, health insurance paying employees and employers simply can't afford to beat. Since it seems society has forgotten the adage "you get what you pay for", the driving principle seems to be "how cheap can you do this", rather than "what will I get for my money". Living in central Colorado, I see this on a regular basis in the construction (read 'basically unskilled labor') field.Stay safe.
...My Father was a plumber, and earned $27 ph in the early ‘80’s. Plumbers in our area now average $10 - $12 ph.....
Oh come on now - even here in Fayetteville, NC it's $50 just for a plumber or appliance repair guy just to walk in the door.
I know there is a difference for construction site vs repair work so.....
A friend of mine out in the Charlotte area is a sub-contractor doing mostly framing, sheeting, siding stuff in the new subdivisions. He runs a Latino crew because as he says "they are the only ones who will show up for work on time and put in a full days work." Unskilled start at $12 ph and the crew leader makes $20 ph. Not bad for a 10-12 hour day. And he's thinking of upping the pay scale this spring.
And no, he does not pay them under the table. As a small business, like me, we can not afford to have the IRS sticking it's nose into our business and shutting it down. Pay, and pay more. When you get audited by the IRS let them find out they have to pay you money back.
Just stick with "Its illegal" and the "cost of services to communities and local/state governments".
incommin
03-18-2007, 12:42
"You guess incorrectly. My view is that crime and drugs are separate issues. I have good solutions for them too."
RL, I don't know how one can separate the two. Use of drugs breeds crime. I can not count the burglaries and robberies I have investigated that were done by individuals looking for funds to feed their drug habit. People want to call drug use a victimless crime; it is not for the average drug users....... they commit crimes to get their drugs.
Jim
I'd pay more for berries if it meant that it was going to be money that stayed in the US and fed a citizen and his family, not just trying to run his pregnant wife over the border so his daughter gets grandfathered in due to being born on american soil.
Xenophobia= The fear or hatred of anything that is strange or foreign. Being labeled as having this phobia because we want to pursue illegal (illegal being the key word here) immigrants won't cut it. Having this fear would of made my SF career challenging if not impossible.
So demanding that our Govt enforce present immigration laws makes us xenophobes and bigots. Just more BS propaganda from the MSM and Libs. I would be willing to pay more for produce as a result of the Govt actually enforcing immigration laws. Short term Government subsidies would be a good incentive for companies to hire only legals.
This is just one solution. Bye paying produce companies the difference due to hiring legal citizens (salary, insurance and medical coverage) Money would be taken out of the equation. Money being the principle reason for hiring illegals. But asking the general public to pay a little more for security won't cut it. Americans will just stop buying the product.
I don't think you would see illegals returning home in mass by cutting off the money. Most would find another way to make money. For some, crime would be an option. But once word spreads that employment for illegals is not only difficult in the U.S. But almost impossible. The grass won't look so green anymore.
Reasons this won't happen, it's political suicide. Many politicians wont support and often speak out against their local/State and Federal LEO'S about enforcing these laws. The Terminator out in California caved in to this pressure .
The Reaper
03-18-2007, 16:44
Exactly right.
Anyone who dares speak out and asks that the laws of this nation actually be enforced is quickly branded a racist and a xenophobe. That pretty much means that the politicians will not touch it.
Those who have fought to make this country what it is today are becoming a minority in a sea of illegals in the Southwest, and those who are coming do not want to be Americans, learn English, or abide by the laws here. Viva la Raza! Viva Mexico!
When they finally get what they want, the area they occupy will be broke and corrupt, like the country they came from, with nicer buildings and infrastructure, till those fall into decay and disrepair as well.
I am wondering if the ones staying here see themselves being the early arrivals and among the elite "haves" once they take over, with the latecomers to the party being the "have not" underclass? Food for thought.
TR
Personally, I don't favor illegal immigration for several reasons, primarily it creates a parallel and unregulated form of entry into the United States. Also, my family starting with my father came here legally for an education and stayed on as a professional before figuring out he wanted to do his own business. After my parents got their citizenship, it took almost a decade to process all the paperwork for his brothers, sister, and their families to come here. All through the legal process.
I got married in Jan 06 to a foreign citizen. I applied last March and I'm still waiting on my spouse to get here. It would have been easier for me to fly my wife to Tijuana and have her run the border somewhere. But I wouldn't do that for a million reasons.
The legal application process is full of hurdles, has a ton of bureucracy, and is grossly inefficient. I consider myself somewhat educated and as a result have managed to process my paperwork without any glitches (and I still could have done it better). For the different types of immigrants through this country, one is at mercy of local consulates, Dept. of Homeland security, and the State Department. There are 3 fees I had to pay at different times through the process. One to HMS, two to the State Dept.
My cousin (uncle's son) applied for citizenship in 1995, five years after he came to the States with his family. His file got lost. He had to get his fingerprinting done 4 times (of which I personally took him to the police station twice). Eventually the INS said,"Yea, its lost. Sorry, just reapply". Had they told us three years ealier, my cousin wouldn't have recieved his citizenship in 2000 a whole FIVE years after his first application. My main point is for labor class individuals who do not have their own resources to jump through all the hoops, we need to have a simple, yet efficient system in place as a clearing house to ensure we document and get people in the system, above the table. But this has been held up on "what do we do about the 10-20 million already here". We can figure it out as we go, but there is no reason to hold up common sense policies and put the 80% solution into play while we debate.
Borders need to be secured for security reasons. The immigration process needs to be streamlined with efficient use of technology and common sense approach to immigration. We need to build incentive for walking in the front door even when lines are supremely long. Because if we don't and as TR said, a nuke smuggled over the border goes off, we'll be paying hell or worse living it. I don't think anyone is a Xenophobe here, but there are some out there and in a scenario of a terrorist act (with knowlege it was smuggled in from Mexico), I'm afraid xenophobes would push their anti-immigration agenda on legals as well.
RL,
Let me know the next time you're in N. CA...I'll give you an "on the ground view!":lifter
Stay safe.
This one added some serious perspective for me….
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=roy