13 minute ruck mile...

[Goat Bandit]

I thought I would start this thread to see if anyone can offer advice for myself or anyone that might be in the same boat. I have read the most of the posts here and I have started to get frustrated with my ruck times. Mainly, what I'm looking for advice on is the 12'30" to 13' minute mile average that some people can do WITHOUT running. I have been training seriously for about 8 weeks now, rucking 2-4 times a week. (just over 190 miles logged) I seem to be stuck on a plateau of 4.2 mph, which puts me at about 14'15" per mile. (This is with a foot drill, that takes under 5 minutes and happens at about mile 8).
-My training started at 35lbs. My average speed for my first 4 miler was 3 mph.

-It didn't take long to get up 4mph, for 4 miles. When I would get up to 4 mph, for that distance I would increase the distance by 2 miles and the weight by 5 lbs.

-Once I got to 12 miles with 55lbs at 4mph, I did not increase the weight, just the distance by 1 mile. The farthest I have gone is 13 miles.

-I have gone back 12 miles now trying to increase the speed, and I seem to be stuck at 4.2, when I need to be at 4.8 to make the 12'30" time that has been suggested here.

-I do the 12 miler once a week, and the other hikes are 5, 6 and 8 miles and I really try to focus on speed on those.

-Some other notes:
- I ruck on a half mile strip of hard dirt and gravel on one side of my FOB. Very Boring and I've worn a nice track into it now. I use a GPS to keep distance and time.
-Gear: Large ruck with frame, rivets are now popping, and the rocks in the radio pocket have rubbed holes in the nylon where it touches the frame. I wear a pair of smartwool sock liners and Marine issued "dive socks" over them, which just are some really thick old school wool socks. Desert Jungle boots, minus the heel cups, skip laced. I don't wear an LBV, because I don't have one here.

-I carry my M4, that has all of the bells and whistles on a sling. I just recently noticed a picture where some SFAS students didn't have slings, so I'm going to ditch mine.

If anyone can offer some advice on how they got up to the 12'30" mile, how their training plan differed, or any other notes I'd appreciate it.

[x SF med]

1. read Major Martin's book - "Get Selected"
2. FOG advice - prior to prep courses - mind over matter - you don't mind, it don't matter. Quit thinking, and do - load your ruck, and go.
3. ditch the smartwool - only issued socks at SFAS.
4. If it's really inside, you'll find it (this is the key point, you either are or you aren't)

Oh, the best final piece of advice - USE THE SEARCH BUTTON - this has been covered ad nauseum - every friggin sluggo asks the same friggin question about rucking, and it really is getting old - minus 50 for bad SA - drop and push, then put on the ruck and walk.

My search on "rucking" turned up 36 hits... Are you lazy or stupid? SF doesn't take either.


edited to add - My apologies for lack of Military Courtesy, LT. I failed to read your profile prior to my post.

[The Reaper]

Stop looking for immediate gratification and personal assistance and take the time to read ALL of the rucking posts here.

A search will quickly show quite a few of them. I have personally answered this question several times before here.

The Search button is your friend.

Good luck, LT.

TR

[Goat Bandit]

I think this may have come off the wrong way, I only posted the specifics of the training program to avoid answering those annoying questions that I often see later in the thread, "well, what kind of boots do you wear? What kind of socks? How far, long and how fast..." etc. I'm legitimately looking for some mentoring here, and interaction between people who may be or were stuck in the same spot. I know I'm not the only one. Not immediate gratification. Personal assistance, to some degree, but I posted this for all to see knowing full well that new posts about rucking are often met with hostility. There are a lot of other guys out there that might be in the same boat that might be afraid of losing 50 points for SA or being publicly berated by people in a community that they want to be a part of. None of that bothers or discourages me from seeking advice, nor do I have problem with ever sticking my neck out for my fellow warfighter.
I do use the search button, and I use it multiple times before I post anything. I may be a Lt, but I'm not a total retard. Maybe I missed something. Our standard in the MC is a blazing 3 mph. Expect to get canned if you exceed that speed with your men behind you. Finding someone who knows how to move out at close to 5mph without running where I'm at will get you nowhere. I read "Get Selected", and I'm familiar with the Socratic method of questioning/mentoring. The book is what led me to start this thread. “Ask for directions and you’ll get to your destination much quicker” (page 11-1). I understand that this is your house, with your rules. I consider myself to be a professional as well, and understand that I am guest in your home and I don’t live here. I’m not looking for a pat on the back, just advice from one or many professionals to another. If the thread can't help anyone, then please delete it.
--x SF med, no worries. Does this mean I get my 50 SA points back?;)

[lksteve]

I think this may have come off the wrong way, I only posted the specifics of the training program to avoid answering those annoying questions that I often see later in the thread, "well, what kind of boots do you wear? What kind of socks? How far, long and how fast..." etc. I'm legitimately looking for some mentoring hereyou want mentoring...but you don't want to be asked annoying questions...LT, when i was a Captain training lugnuts in IOBC, mentored quite a few folks...it entails asking a lot of annoying questions...

hit the search button, read the threads and then maybe someone will take the time to answer YOUR annoying questions....

quoth Tom Rush "Kids these days"...:rolleyes:

[x SF med]

... I may be a Lt, but I'm not a total retard. ...--x SF med, no worries. Does this mean I get my 50 SA points back?;)

NO LT, it just means I get -20 for not using SA. I really didn't want to do extra PT tonight, I'm old and fragile - not to mention, a naked troll, and it's friggin cold out.

[Warrior-Mentor]

LT - No worries.

Couple thoughts for your consideration:

Pace: I used a 1/4 mile track to help accurately track my pace and to get used to it.

12.5 minutes/mile = 4.8 miles/hour

Call it 4.75 mph (for easy math) = 19 laps/hour (on a 1/4 mile track)

Pace in:
Min/Mile | Miles/Hour | Laps/hour | Min/Lap | Laps/Min
12.0 | 5.0 | 20.0 | 3.00 | 0.33
12.5 | 4.8 | 19.2 | 3.13 | 0.32
13.0 | 4.6 | 18.5 | 3.25 | 0.31
13.5 | 4.4 | 17.8 | 3.38 | 0.30
14.0 | 4.3 | 17.1 | 3.50 | 0.29
14.5 | 4.1 | 16.6 | 3.63 | 0.28
15.0 | 4.0 | 16.0 | 3.75 | 0.27

In other words, to do cover 1 mile in 12.5 minutes, you've got to get used to walking 1/4 mile lap every 3 minutes. Broken down further, you could say you've got to cover a 1/3 of the track every 60 seconds.

You've got the benefit of a GPS to track your speed, so you might not want/need to use a track. I recommend it at least once [even wth a GPS] so you can get the "visual" feel of the pace as well.

The next logical question [which you asked] is, "How do I speed up to get to that pace, WITHOUT running?"

Stride: Consciously work to lengthen your stride. At 5'10", I worked to get my comfortable, fast ruck stride to match that of guys who were 6 inches taller than I was. It feels a little ackward at first, but you can get used to it.

Arms: This pays the biggest, and fastest dividends in terms of immediate return on effort. Concentrate on swinging your arms very quickly and at a full swing. For whatever reason, your legs respond to the speed of your arms. It's strange, but it works. Without a weapon, swing your arms straight forward and back. With a weapon, I swung the weapon rapidy from side to side [or carried it in one hand, swinging it forward and back].

Good luck.

[Razor]

At 5'10", I worked to get my comfortable, fast ruck stride to match that of guys who were 6 inches taller than I was.

Unless those of us over 6' were striding out, too. Must've sucked for you "little guys". :D

[x SF med]

LT-
W-M just confirmed what I told you in the pm - stride and arm swing - the keys to rucking faster.... And W-M wrote the book - which wasn't around when I went through the course.

[LongWire]

My real nice RIP Instructors set the pace for me back when I started doing this stuff, way back when.........I kept up then, and realized that my Basic Course Had been Easy, and I was finding the challenge I had been looking for. Since then I know what the standard is.........


Ditch all the feel good stuff......Ruck up and walk........then walk faster...........then even faster, lean forward and push yourself into a pace that feels like you are moving way too fast.......this is your pace!!!!!!!!


You will have to dig deep.....the first few times will be real uncomfortable and will literally wear some seriously nice blisters into places they've never been before.......you will get used to this, and the body will adapt and either not give you blisters after a while or give them to you anyways........the by-product either way is character!!!!!!!


Dig deep, LT.

[x SF med]

Unless those of us over 6' were striding out, too. Must've sucked for you "little guys". :D

That it did Razor, that it did - at 5'8", it sucked to keep up with you tall guys, but, you do what you need to do.:cool:

[Pete]

Goat;

You reach a point where no mater how long a stride you take and how fast you pump your arms you just can't get any faster. Your boots just take too long to move from the back to the front.

To go any faster you will need to shorten your step and move your feet and legs "faster". At 6'3" I had a good long, steady pace that would eat the miles but some of the shorter guys had a blazing short step, like a range walk that would burn down the road. To keep up with them I felt like I was walking on my heels and my thighs would be buring within a 1/4 mile.

As others have said find a measured 1/4 somewhere, a local track maybe. Get out and do a few miles and come up on the track. Go around at your normal pace to check time, then do another with a shorter step but pick up the speed, really pumping the arms side to side as if you were holding your rifle.

You may find you make better time overall by using a combination of steps over the measured distance. Up hill, down hill, flats, sand and road.

Pete

[Warrior-Mentor]

My real nice RIP Instructors set the pace for me ...

Ditch all the feel good stuff......Ruck up and walk........then walk faster...........then even faster, lean forward and push yourself into a pace that feels like you are moving way too fast.......this is your pace!!!!!!!!

You will have to dig deep... the first few times will be real uncomfortable and will literally wear some seriously nice blisters into places they've never been before.......you will get used to this, and the body will adapt and either not give you blisters after a while or give them to you anyways........the by-product either way is character!!!!!!!

Dig deep, LT.

LW - something about those Rangers...they can ruck fast...luckily, as a 2LT, our pre-Ranger instructor (at FAOBC) was a FIST in one of the Ranger Battalions. He was shorter than me, but showed us the way to ruck...and then wore us out.

LT - When your SHINS feel like they're going to explode, you're getting there. Make sure to do a good stretch BEFORE and AFTER to help prevent or minimize the pain of shin slints.

[funnyman]

I found it was easier to take more short strides rather than fewer longer ones. Having a stride that's too long for your body will exert too much force on the rear of your heel since all the impact of each step will occur there. That will cause blistering and possible stress fractures. Too many blisters/swelling and you'll end up cutting the front and back of your boots off and end up walking around in a nice new pair of leather Tevas. :D

Like others have said, I definately found swinging my arms back and forth worked well. Let your arms extend all the way so your muscles don't work extra to hold up your weapon (obviously for non-combat environments only).

I always tried to trot a little extra on the down hills - gravity is your friend in this case.

Maybe rucking the same path over and over subconsciously subdues you a bit. Try varying your terrain.

Don't zone out, but stay in a slightly detatched mental state. It'll relax you and you'll fall into a 'groove'.

Picture yourself after you graduate the Q and you find yourself in Iraq, separated from your team, with 100 locals chasing you so they can cut your head off and put the video of it on YouTube.

-Good luck LT.

[AusDigger]

Lots and lots of hills. If you can keep a good pace going up and down hills, you will keep an even better pace when you get to flatter ground. You also want to throw in a few long distance marches each week so that your legs get used to it (6 hours or more). That way when you do a 20km march it will seem like nothing. When you reach a point where you think you have it down pat, start adding more weight to your pack.

Also, when you practice the your timed marches, find someone who can keep pace with you and get them to walk with no weight in their pack so you have to battle to keep up with them.

[Goat Bandit]

I just wanted to thank everyone that has taken time out of thier busy lives to offer this advice. I'm going to rework the training plan based on what has been suggested here and if you don't mind, I'll post the results along with the plan in a couple of months when I complete it. That way it can be used as a reference for anyone thay may need it. Most importantly, I'm going to dig deeper!

[Daver]

Unless those of us over 6' were striding out, too. Must've sucked for you "little guys". :D
I hated tall guys when it came to rucking....my revenge was to be the point man and duck under the low stuff and drop them in the woods! Ha Ha Ha!!!!! We all still wear the same hat though and drink the same beer right???

[x SF med]

I hated tall guys when it came to rucking....my revenge was to be the point man and duck under the low stuff and drop them in the woods! Ha Ha Ha!!!!! We all still wear the same hat though and drink the same beer right???

Or grab the low branches, and let them go at an opportune moment - THWACK! OOOPs, sorry Bill, didn't know you'd gotten that close, hope you don't have a date after this exercise....

[Robertson]

Unless those of us over 6' were striding out, too. Must've sucked for you "little guys". :D


ahhh man I'm 5'8 on a good day and 5'7 on most days....i'm going to need leg extentions for these ruck marches :) :boohoo

[12B4S]

Jeeeeeez...... The snappin' lower branches back doesn't work guys. Never did on me anyway. Rucking was just that. Rucking. You slapped it on and went. There wasn't any thought about it. Just did whatever you needed to do. I never thought about arm swings and such. If I had, It would have probably messed me up like when I tried to teach my daughter to crawl. Hand here, knee there...... yeah...... soon you can't even crawl.

The ruck just becomes a part of you. This site has made me think way back. I really don't remember the discomfort of 60,80,100plus pound rucks. That is what it was, just hump the thing. EXCEPT! There was one time, I still remember as uncomfortable. Some passing in review/parade thing for some big wigs at Flint in the Quadrangle. We got the word. Fatigues and rucks. So. Knowing how these things work, we were in no way going to load our rucks as if we were headed to the boonies. We just partially inflated our air mats, rolled them a tad and stuffed them in the ruck to fill out the packs, sure made them look loaded. :)

After being placed in formation outside the Quadrangle a half hour or so before the specified time.........then another half hour and another and another, that damn ruck got quite uncomfortable. All of us were slipping thumbs under the straps along the shoulders, bending, shifting. Those things were getting to be a real pain. Those issue air mats sucked for alot of reasons anyway. Thought maybe they would pay off for once.

Anyway. That was my most uncomfortable time under a ruck, even after some 30+ years, that is what I remember as the most uncomfortable. Humping 80,90,100+ rucks is NOT as bad as that. ;)

Follow the advice in the book. Yet> Try not to think so hard. :)

[Tom Viktor]

LT,

I've been working on my rucking and at 5'5" is a little hard, but I've been able to do them at 5 mph with 55lbs. my secret was to put out. I pretty much jog the whole thing for 15 miles, you just have to get use to it. Good luck on you journey.

[x SF med]

LT,

I've been working on my rucking and at 5'5" is a little hard, but I've been able to do them at 5 mph with 55lbs. my secret was to put out. I pretty much jog the whole thing for 15 miles, you just have to get use to it. Good luck on you journey.


If you keep jogging with a ruck you will have no knees in a very short time, even walking with a ruck takes its toll - learn to stride out, not jog or run, your feet, knees, shins, back and shoulders will last a lot longer. But, WTF do I know, I was an 18D. belay that, RUN HARDER!! See if you can get that time down to oh, 7 minute miles. It would be amazing to see a 12 mile ruck time of an hour and 24 min posted... All kidding aside, work smarter, jogging will only injure you.

[booker]

New guys: Read the stickies! TR posted a very valuable nugget of information about rucking in, yes, this very section of the board. Not to say that the additional information hasn't been useful, but much of what has been asked has been covered to the umpteenth power already.

[Tom Viktor]

X SF Med,

Thanks for the tip, will start working on it, no sense in breaking myself early.

[itsanarmything]

I'd like to add my .02 in this topic. I'm a rather short guy myself, standing only 5'6" and for the last four years of rucking, I thought it would be close to impossible to get anything below a 14 minute without running.

I took the advice off this thread and shortened my stride and increased the speed and I knocked out an 8 mile road march with two 5 minute breaks in an hour and fifty minutes. My shins and calves are paying for it, but knowing that I pulled off consecutive 12:30 miles with only a few trots was a big morale booster.

So if you can't stride out as far as someone 6' , then give this a try, it'll pay dividends.

[OIFDan]

At 5'3 I assure you that I am struggling at keeping a 14-15 minute mile pace as everyone talks about (a 13 minute mile as said by The Reaper). I am working hard at it though and I am sure that it will pay off huge dividends in the long run. I have found a shorter stride with slightly faster steps and arm swing has been the way to go for me. I went through selection last year and was just not as upto speed as I should have been and thus not selected. I am having trouble balancing the two out though. Last year when I attended I was a runner. After attending selection I realized that there is a noticable difference between running and rucking. I.E. Running is not Rucking! I weighed in at meager 129 lbs when I toughed out selection. I was slow on rucks and the "TEAM" week damn near killed me. I am considerably bigger this year weighing in around 142 and all of it is additional muscle. I have a class date of 30 April and I am hoping that I am big enough to excell during team week this time. The problem is that I am no longer a runner. I remember those two long runs that I excelled at before and I am not so sure that I can finish as strong again. I am bulking up to be stronger, but as a result my run is suffering... Any advice? Also what are the numbers for guys heading through selection thier second time? Are most a second time go, or is there even a known percentage?
Thanks, Dan

[Daver]

I haven't been around much lately to chime in but I think I speak as the absolute SME on this issue....I am the shortest SGM in all of SF and next week I become the shortest CSM in all of SF.....what's the point you ask??? Stop worrying about your "Time" and just do it. Rucking isn't rocket science...long legged guys can cover more distance per stride than the less long legged guys! Duh!! So just reach down and move out with a purpose! There is no magic, no shortcut on your desktop, no excel spreadsheet that you can manipulate..just do it!

Daver sends....

[Sionnach]

next week I become the shortest CSM in all of SF

Pardon the hijack, but congratulations, CSM! :lifter

[booker]

Indeed, congratulations CSM!

[Goat Bandit]

I followed the advice on this thread, but the I really think the answer was already here. I was planning on posting what I did to get to the sub 13 mile, but it's what everyone was saying all along. If you want it, you will find it inside of you. There is no formula on the internet. The shorter and faster steps helped. I planned on going for some 1/4 miles for time, but I just kept going. If you can do a 1/4 mile at that pace, then you can do a 1/2. If you can do that then you can go farther, all the way to the end or until someone tells you stop. Build a strong milage base,(for me it was about 200) and then just do it. Some miles were faster than others, some sub 12, some just under 14. Just dig men, just dig in hard and the miles will fly by fast. I thank you all for your advice, and for those of you that are looking for an answer, it's either in you or it isn't.

[The Reaper]

Swing those arms, and walk with a buddy who moves at the pace you want to.

Then just keep up with him.

Easy, right?:D

TR