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Trip_Wire (RIP)
02-25-2007, 18:20
(For what it's worth.)

VERY important information regarding your auto loading pistols:

Catastrophic Failure of Semiautomatic Handguns

The following bulletin was received from the New Jersey State Police - Officer Safety Division

Date: February 23, 2007

Continuous reloading an chambering of the same round may cause catastrophic failure in semiautomatic handguns.

The Security Force at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in Los Alamos, New Mexico, recently reported on the catastrophic failure of a semiautomatic handgun when it was fired. The internal explosion caused the frame to break while the slide and barrel separated from the weapon and traveled down range. No one was injured in the incident. An investigation revealed that security personnel were repeatedly charging the same round of ammunition into the chamber.

Technical personnel at Glock Inc. advise that repeated chambering of the same round may cause the bullet to move deeper in the casing, further compacting the propellant. When a normal cartridge is fired, the firing pin hits the primer, igniting the propellant. When the propellant burns, the gas pressure drives the bullet out of the case and down the barrel. However, if the propellant has been compact, the pressure may increase beyond the gun's maximum specifications, causing the weapon to break apart.

Sigarms Inc's personnel confirm that reloading the same round five or six times will cause the problems, noting that reloading the same round even once will void their warranty.

Both manufacturers stress that the problem is not with the gun, but with chambering the same round repeatedly. The NJ Regional Operations Intelligence Center urges all law enforcement officers not to chamber the same round when loading their weapons.

***For example, when you clean your weapon, most of us drop the magazine and then pull the slide back thereby ejecting the round in the barrel.

After cleaning the weapon many of us will return the "same" round to the barrel that we initially extracted. Each time the slide slams forward on that same round it seats it deeper into the cartridge. Apparently, by seating the round deeper into the cartridge, it creates greater pressure when the round is intentionally detonated by a firing pin strike and is causing weapons to explode.

The Reaper
02-25-2007, 18:47
This should not be a problem with properly crimped rounds containing normal powder charges.

Several rounds, in fact, start out loaded with compressed charges.

Glocks are notorious for KaBooms.

They already blame reloaded ammo and lead bullets. Perhaps they are looking for yet another scapegoat.

I would be curious to know whether SIG meant reloaded, as in hand loaded, versus reloaded as in repeatedly rechambered.

TR

Genghis_Don
02-26-2007, 02:33
Hell I may just go buy a new box for GP. Throw out the top round after I chamber it a couple times

Pete
02-26-2007, 05:04
This should not be a problem with properly crimped rounds containing normal powder charges....I would be curious to know whether SIG meant reloaded, as in hand loaded, versus reloaded as in repeatedly rechambered.

TR


Semi-autos have been around for many years. The Military for about 100 years, Police forces have used them for decades. A lot of them were "round in the chamber, take it out, put in it" years and it's a problem now?

Hmmmm. I wonder.

Pete

The Reaper
02-26-2007, 09:04
Hell I may just go buy a new box for GP. Throw out the top round after I chamber it a couple times

I regularly use the same rounds to load repeatedly, and I have been shooting handguns for over 30 years without a catastrophic failure. That includes some early, less than safe reloading experiments for a .44 Magnum that demonstrated the strength of a Ruger Super Blackhawk, and that God looks out after fools.

At the same time, I rarely keep a loaded mag more than three months, as I prefer to cycle my carry ammo periodically in practice and put fresh rounds in the mags. A box of carry ammo per year is not really that high a price to pay for that confidence.

Pocket lint, sweat, humidity, crud, weapons lube, etc. are not doing the ammo any good, and I really want the weapon to work as it should, when it should.

As the saying goes, there is nothing in the world louder than a click that should have been a boom or a boom that should have been a click.

In this case, I think someone has been overreacting.

TR

Team Sergeant
02-26-2007, 10:21
(For what it's worth.)



Technical personnel at Glock Inc.



I stopped reading this warning at this point. You get what you pay for...... for those of you that own glocks, good luck.:rolleyes:

IMO glocks are the worst mass produced handgun on the market today. This just adds to my opinion.

Team Sergeant

x SF med
02-26-2007, 11:05
I stopped reading this warning at this point. You get what you pay for...... for those of you that own glocks, good luck.:rolleyes:

IMO glocks are the worst mass produced handgun on the market today. This just adds to my opinion.

Team Sergeant

So, Jefe - glocks fall under 1911's in the TS foce continuum for handguns? Just checking, I've got my eye on a nice .40 that I saw at SHOT... (not Glock, not 1911 clone)

Team Sergeant
02-26-2007, 11:22
So, Jefe - glocks fall under 1911's in the TS foce continuum for handguns? Just checking, I've got my eye on a nice .40 that I saw at SHOT... (not Glock, not 1911 clone)


1911's are antiques, but I've never heard of one blowing up for the above stated reason......

I've rechambered the same round for months on end with no problems when fired. But then again I own H&K's.;)

I did enjoy reading glocks excuses for failure.

incommin
02-26-2007, 12:32
Another reason for my not liking Glocks..... still love my 1911..... it may be an antique, but like me it does the job!

Jim

Razor
02-26-2007, 14:14
...I rarely keep a loaded mag more than three months, as I prefer to cycle my carry ammo periodically in practice and put fresh rounds in the mags. A box of carry ammo per year is not really that high a price to pay for that confidence.

Absolutely. Not only is it not that expensive, I think its a great idea to fire a magazine of carry ammo now and then, as it shoots a bit differenly than the Winchester white box ball I normally use for practice.

swatsurgeon
02-27-2007, 16:00
Without knowing details, I bet it was a Glock in .40 cal. The chamber has had issues with the pressures of some .40 rounds. The only failures described that I have seen were in that caliber.
The HKs, paras, kimbers, sigs, etc have the supported chamber, factory glocks do not.
ss

G
02-27-2007, 17:21
My .02c,

Back in the mid 90's I carried Hornady XTP 115gr 9mm in a BHP. After multiple chamberings, the bullet was definitely seated lower in the cartridge case. Whenever I noticed that happening, I just added the round to my weekly training ammo, and never had a problem.

Take Care...

G

CoLawman
02-27-2007, 20:01
Sigarms Inc's personnel confirm that reloading the same round five or six times will cause the problems, noting that reloading the same round even once will void their warranty.

Both manufacturers stress that the problem is not with the gun, but with chambering the same round repeatedly. The NJ Regional Operations Intelligence Center urges all law enforcement officers not to chamber the same round when loading their weapons.

You have got to be kidding me! Both of these manufacturers sell their firearms to Law Enforcement. Our agency purchased over 200 handguns from Glock. I can assure you that there were no instances in which they disclosed this defect. They must be the stupidest people on this earth if they are unaware that the loading of the same round is common practice in law enforcement!

When/if my issued weapon goes boom.........I swear to ODIN, if killed, my wife will find a lawyer to rename the company OLSON!:mad:

Team Sergeant
02-27-2007, 20:50
When/if my issued weapon goes boom.........I swear to ODIN, if killed, my wife will find a lawyer to rename the company OLSON!:mad:

LOL, I'll testify on your wife's behalf....;)

HOLLiS
02-28-2007, 22:17
Curious, did they check the ammo, such as was there a crimp? Same ammo? I have pulled a lot of bullets and I just can not see the action forcing the bullet to the rearward of the case especially if there was a crimp.

Keeping the old ammo, is as bad as when bullets would turn green in a LEO leathers.

Irish_Army01
03-01-2007, 04:02
The Irish Defence Forces have just acquired HK USP 9mm..We start training on them in a month or so..

Any one have bad stories about the USP?? or are they GTG?

The Reaper
03-01-2007, 08:21
IMHO you should be GTG.

Nice pistols, not a fan of 9x19 though.

TR

kgoerz
03-01-2007, 08:59
Both manufacturers stress that the problem is not with the gun, but with chambering the same round repeatedly. The NJ Regional Operations Intelligence Center urges all law enforcement officers not to chamber the same round when loading their weapons.


I may be wrong about the problem being the Gun But isn't it the gun that chambers the round. So on top of marking our magazines they want us to mark our individual rounds. every time you eject a live round pick it up and using a paint marker put a tic mark on it....ok. This is like blaming gasoline for the old Pinto's blowing up when rear ended.

noting that reloading the same round even once will void their warranty.

What warranty are they talking about? The one where they guarantee the pistol wont blow up in your face. Just how are they going to prove that a round that just blew up in your chamber was loaded more then once, Call CSI Vegas......

Irish_Army01
03-01-2007, 10:20
IMHO you should be GTG.

Nice pistols, not a fan of 9x19 though.

TR


We stayed with 9mm because of interoperability training with other countries..example,the battle Group we're a member of is mostly of Nordic Countries,and all their service pistols are 9mm..

HOLLiS
03-02-2007, 08:35
Guns and Ammo Magazine has a sort article on crimping. Though its focus is on wheel gun the author did mention that lead bullets are more likely to move than jacketed bullets. The test was for three types of crimps. Light, medium and heavy on a 44 magnum cartridge. He fired 5 rounds and measured the 6th for shrinkage. None was noted on any of the jacketed bullets.

I am still wondering, from a reloaders standpoint, if this occurrence has more to do with ammo construction that firearm chambering the round. I read elsewhere that the loading ramp could cause bullet setback.

dr. mabuse
03-04-2007, 11:25
*

Genghis_Don
03-04-2007, 12:44
My carry gun is a Walther P99 in .40 Haven't heard of any problems there yet. Anyone?

Karl.Masters
03-04-2007, 13:29
Without knowing details, I bet it was a Glock in .40 cal. The chamber has had issues with the pressures of some .40 rounds. The only failures described that I have seen were in that caliber.
ss


Good call SS. Here's a link to pictures of the accident at "The Gun Zone":

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/setback.html#nb2

From the link:

"Subsequent preliminary PTLA review indicated that a possible combination of excessive pressure and a bore obstruction contributed to the explosion."

Looks like there is more to this than OAL/setback.

Karl

HOLLiS
03-05-2007, 22:30
Good call SS. Here's a link to pictures of the accident at "The Gun Zone":

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/setback.html#nb2

From the link:

"Subsequent preliminary PTLA review indicated that a possible combination of excessive pressure and a bore obstruction contributed to the explosion."

Looks like there is more to this than OAL/setback.

Karl

So it sounds like a squib round?

Also there is a comment about about a bullet being left in the gun. Was that a bullet, or a cartridge? I am not a expert on barrel eruptions, the ones that I have seen with "plug" or obstructed barrels looked like the one in the picture, or had a bad bulge before the obstruction.

This is almost as bad as the story I heard a long time ago, of a re-loader using bullseye in a 30-06 round. Some failures are not the gun's fault.

Karl.Masters
03-15-2007, 17:08
Hollis,

This incident is on my list for follow up through my agency's channels. If I find out any more of the details of the failure analysis I will post them here. Looking forward to getting the rest of the story on this.

Karl

ODA 226
12-14-2007, 12:26
I stopped reading this warning at this point. You get what you pay for...... for those of you that own glocks, good luck.:rolleyes:

IMO glocks are the worst mass produced handgun on the market today. This just adds to my opinion.

Team Sergeant

TS,
While I am a lifelong carrier of the Colt 1911A1, I have to defend the Glock for its strength and reliability.

While I was training Iraqi Security Forces at Taji, I had a guy shooting next to me on the pistol range that cracked-off a squib load (cheap Eastern block ammo) and immediately racked another round into the chamber and fired.

Knowing that I was an 18B, he stopped me during my string and asked for help "clearing" his weapon. (Since I was shooting when all this occured, I didn't know what had transpired.)

After removing the mag, I attempted to rack the slide, but to no avail. We took it back to the armory and managed to hammer the barrel out of the slide.

The barrel had a slight bulge at about the halfway point. It was then I realized what had happened.

Our full time armorer was Glock certified and after inspecting the rest of the weapon, inserted a new barrel and test fired it. It worked without a hitch!

No one can separate me from my .45, but the Glock has, in my experience, proven to be a very strong and reliable weapon and does have its place.

Team Sergeant
12-14-2007, 12:35
No one can separate me from my .45, but the Glock has, in my experience, proven to be a very strong and reliable weapon and does have its place.

I've beaten this horse enough times.....:rolleyes:

The glock is a cheap automatic for those that do not want to train people.

It's no more complicated than a six-shooter, point and pull. It's also inherently inaccurate, and sports a grip angle that's far above common sense.

Perfect for those police chiefs that want to save money and equip their people with the cheapest and most simple handgun on the open market, the only thing the glock does better than a six shooter is reload faster.;)

For the forces you are training, perfect.:D

Team Sergeant

ODA 226
12-14-2007, 12:44
For the forces you are training, perfect.:D

Team Sergeant

TS,
My point EXACTLY!!! ;)

incarcerated
12-24-2008, 21:02
The problem here is unsupported case heads, particularly w/ the .40 S&W. The .40 is a reasonably high pressure cartridge, running around 32,000 to 35,000 PSI. The designers of many automatic pistols have cut away a small crescent portion of the chamber at 6:00 to facilitate feeding as the round comes up the ramp. Remove your barrel and check it out. Cartridge brass can (doesn’t always) bulge slightly in this unsupported area near the case head. Resizing works the bulge, weakening the brass ever so slightly. When a piece of .40 brass has had the misfortune to bulge in the same place repeatedly after multiple reoladings, it can fail. When this does occur, it is usually found in Range re-loads at public ranges, or hand-loads. New factory ammo, steel case ammo (Wolf), and the 104 year-old .45 ACP (at 21,000 PSI) do not tend to experience this problem.
Springfield XDs and, if memory serves, Walther P99s are fully supported. Most Sig, Glock, Taurus and other autos generally have the unsupported (i.e. not fully supported) chamber.
Further discussion can be found:
http://38super.net/Pages/supported.html
and
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=661911

Brush Okie
12-24-2008, 21:30
The problem here is unsupported case heads, particularly w/ the .40 S&W. The .40 is a reasonably high pressure cartridge, running around 32,000 to 35,000 PSI. The designers of many automatic pistols have cut away a small crescent portion of the chamber at 6:00 to facilitate feeding as the round comes up the ramp. Remove your barrel and check it out. Cartridge brass can (doesn’t always) bulge slightly in this unsupported area near the case head. Resizing works the bulge, weakening the brass ever so slightly. When a piece of .40 brass has had the misfortune to bulge in the same place repeatedly after multiple reoladings, it can fail. When this does occur, it is usually found in Range re-loads at public ranges, or hand-loads. New factory ammo, steel case ammo (Wolf), and the 104 year-old .45 ACP (at 21,000 PSI) do not tend to experience this problem.
Springfield XDs and, if memory serves, Walther P99s are fully supported. Most Sig, Glock, Taurus and other autos generally have the unsupported (i.e. not fully supported) chamber.
Further discussion can be found:
http://38super.net/Pages/supported.html
and
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=661911



While I won't say it is a common problem it is not uncommon either. a local range that rents out handguns had a Glock 22 with a low round count blow up. He only allows factory ammo in his rentals or commercial reloads he sells. I am not sure what ammo was being used at the time. I carried a Glock 22 at work for several years and it never fit my hand well.

The Reaper
12-24-2008, 22:52
The problem here is unsupported case heads, particularly w/ the .40 S&W. The .40 is a reasonably high pressure cartridge, running around 32,000 to 35,000 PSI. The designers of many automatic pistols have cut away a small crescent portion of the chamber at 6:00 to facilitate feeding as the round comes up the ramp. Remove your barrel and check it out. Cartridge brass can (doesn’t always) bulge slightly in this unsupported area near the case head. Resizing works the bulge, weakening the brass ever so slightly. When a piece of .40 brass has had the misfortune to bulge in the same place repeatedly after multiple reoladings, it can fail. When this does occur, it is usually found in Range re-loads at public ranges, or hand-loads. New factory ammo, steel case ammo (Wolf), and the 104 year-old .45 ACP (at 21,000 PSI) do not tend to experience this problem.
Springfield XDs and, if memory serves, Walther P99s are fully supported. Most Sig, Glock, Taurus and other autos generally have the unsupported (i.e. not fully supported) chamber.
Further discussion can be found:
http://38super.net/Pages/supported.html
and
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=661911

Incarc:

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TR