Utah Gunman

[BMT (RIP)]

The 18-year-old gunman who killed five people in a crowded Utah shopping mall was a Bosnian Muslim refugee who was prepared to kill many more, say investigators.

Waiting to see IF MSM jumps on this part of the story. Waiting on a better source for the full story.


BMT

[Team Sergeant]

"Authorities Seek Motive" I like those headlines...... "No (muslim) religious connection".

BTW here in Arizona we are NOT allowed to carry our concealed weapons in the local (westcor owned) malls. So the only people in our malls with guns would be cops and bad guys. I've never seen a cop in our malls. Thank you westcor.



Authorities Seek Motive for Bosnian Immigrant Teen's Shooting Rampage at Salt Lake City Mall
Thursday, February 15, 2007

SALT LAKE CITY — A shopping mall where five people were gunned down this week reopened, as authorities tried to figure out why a teenage Bosnian immigrant committed the rampage and how he got his hands on a gun.

FBI agent Patrick Kiernan in Salt Lake City said the bureau had no reason to believe Sulejman Talovic, 18, who was killed by police, was motivated by religious extremism or an act of terrorism.

"We are Muslims, but we are not terrorists," the boy's aunt, Ajka Omerovic, said Wednesday at the family's house.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,252111,00.html

[The Reaper]

Praise Allah that we brought them here to escape the violence and persecution in their own country.:rolleyes:

Don't we have enough problems here already without having to import more?

TR

[HalveBlue]

Finally a thread I can reply to.

Having grown up in the Salt Lake City area I can assure that the FBI's thoughts on the motive are more than likely accurate.

The kid was from South Salt Lake, which has a relatively high concentration of Bosnians immigrants.

More than likely him being Muslim was incidental. The Bosnian refugees in the Salt Lake area aren't very devout as far as I can recollect.

If anything this is just one more individual in the angry/confused emo youth crowd that sought to take out their anger and sadness on others. Sort of like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

[82ndtrooper]

This is yet another example for more legislative gun control ammunition for the Brady bunch clowns. I dont presume to know the Utah state gun laws for age of lawful purchase of a firearm, but you can bet that the firearm used was not sold to him legally.

What is worth noting is that the law enforcement officer was off duty and was carrying concealed. In other words, the right to carry concealed halted this massacre before it elevated to a higher number of deaths and or injuries. Assuming that you could carry concealed on the premisis of the mall, then its worth a longer conversation for the carry concealed laws in the act of defending another under lawful circumstances. How would a law abiding citizen, non LEO, engage this threat without being seen as yet another bad guy ? Maybe COLAWMAN can share any of his thoughts and concerns ?

Assuming that you or I were carrying concealed and where willing to engage this threat, how would one distuingsh him self as a law abiding citizen acting in good faith to protect another ? The confusion would surely get you or I in someones sight picture quickly (LEO) I've never been one to believe that any type of carry concealed badge is worth the $5, but having one around your neck just might enable the LEO's to relize that you are on their side, not the bad guys. Of course the intervention by a citizen may be criticized for just this very reason, but if my child, loved ones and friends are in immenent danger, then I'm either going to take a bullet for them, or enage the threat. I'd prefer to engage them, not take the bullet.

I'd be interested in COLAWMANS thoughts on this type of scenario.

[casey]

Finally a thread I can reply to.

Having grown up in the Salt Lake City area I can assure that the FBI's thoughts on the motive are more than likely accurate.

The kid was from South Salt Lake, which has a relatively high concentration of Bosnians immigrants.

More than likely him being Muslim was incidental. The Bosnian refugees in the Salt Lake area aren't very devout as far as I can recollect.

If anything this is just one more individual in the angry/confused emo youth crowd that sought to take out their anger and sadness on others. Sort of like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.


If you want to win a debate, never use this type of double negative as your lead point.

[CoLawman]

This is yet another example for more legislative gun control ammunition for the Brady bunch clowns. I dont presume to know the Utah state gun laws for age of lawful purchase of a firearm, but you can bet that the firearm used was not sold to him legally.

What is worth noting is that the law enforcement officer was off duty and was carrying concealed. In other words, the right to carry concealed halted this massacre before it elevated to a higher number of deaths and or injuries. Assuming that you could carry concealed on the premisis of the mall, then its worth a longer conversation for the carry concealed laws in the act of defending another under lawful circumstances. How would a law abiding citizen, non LEO, engage this threat without being seen as yet another bad guy ? Maybe COLAWMAN can share any of his thoughts and concerns ?

Assuming that you or I were carrying concealed and where willing to engage this threat, how would one distuingsh him self as a law abiding citizen acting in good faith to protect another ? The confusion would surely get you or I in someones sight picture quickly (LEO) I've never been one to believe that any type of carry concealed badge is worth the $5, but having one around your neck just might enable the LEO's to relize that you are on their side, not the bad guys. Of course the intervention by a citizen may be criticized for just this very reason, but if my child, loved ones and friends are in immenent danger, then I'm either going to take a bullet for them, or enage the threat. I'd prefer to engage them, not take the bullet.

I'd be interested in COLAWMANS thoughts on this type of scenario.

I am a strong advocate of CCW permits. If my child or wife are at the mall and this scenario plays out, I want every capable citizen within their vicinity armed.

Your concern about LEO response seeing a civilian armed with a handgun as they arrive on scene is spot on. The Ogden officer in Salt Lake City was unable to get his badge out and a Salt Lake officer drew down on him........tense! This is a risk that off duty officers take, some have wound up being shot and even killed by fellow officers in similar situations.

In most instances the responding officer is trained to challenge before pulling the trigger. If those civilians with CCW recognize that they need to "immediately" become passive (drop the gun) they greatly increase their chances of not being shot.

Colorado currently has new legislation regarding our "Make My Day Law." The law will extend to all business owners being allowed to employ deadly force if they feel their life or that of another is threatened. I am a strong supporter of this bill. I know there are drawbacks, but the good that will result, far outweighs the risks. I also believe that there needs to be exceptions to this law. I do not believe this should extend to bars, massage parlors, XXX book stores, or businesses of ill repute.

You will find that I am on record as advocating our schools arming those willing teachers, custodians, and administrators. I believe that the knowledge that a teacher, or several teachers might be armed goes along way toward deterrence. Same goes for business owners. Which Mom and Pop store are you, joe shet the gang banger, going to rob? Odds are they will drive to the Nebraska or Wyoming border and hit a store there.

LTC David Grossman says that we can be sheep when the wolf arrives.....and violence such as this will continue unabated. He chastises, in his seminars, those off duty officers and military personnel who are not armed 24/7.

I believe that the fewer sheep in a school, mall, or church the sooner the wolf again becomes an endangered species. But then again I am jaded. Half the bars in my city have armed guards patting everyone down as they enter the establishment!

[CoLawman]

Finally a thread I can reply to.

Having grown up in the Salt Lake City area I can assure that the FBI's thoughts on the motive are more than likely accurate.

The kid was from South Salt Lake, which has a relatively high concentration of Bosnians immigrants.

More than likely him being Muslim was incidental. The Bosnian refugees in the Salt Lake area aren't very devout as far as I can recollect.

If anything this is just one more individual in the angry/confused emo youth crowd that sought to take out their anger and sadness on others. Sort of like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

In today's world, I do not believe being Muslim and executing innocents is "incidental". You are certainly correct in pointing out that the Bosnian Muslims are not known as fundamentalists.

But we have seen Americans fall prey to fundamentalist propoganda. Adam Gadahn aka Azzam the American, John Walker Lindh, Joey Padilla aka The Dirty Bomber, Ryan Anderson, and Richard Reid aka The Shoe Bomber. There was also the Muslim soldier that killed fellow American soldiers by tossing a grenade. Read the bios on these individuals and you will see that they too were not fundamentalist Muslims.

My point being, his being Muslim would be the first theory I would consider when looking for motive.

[casey]

[QUOTE= There was also the Muslim soldier that killed fellow American soldiers by tossing a grenade. Read the bios on these individuals and you will see that they too were not fundamentalist Muslims. [/QUOTE]



That would be X-Sgt, now death row inmate Hasan Akbar. Just finishing up your thoughts Col...

[Defender968]

Your concern about LEO response seeing a civilian armed with a handgun as they arrive on scene is spot on. The Ogden officer in Salt Lake City was unable to get his badge out and a Salt Lake officer drew down on him........tense! This is a risk that off duty officers take, some have wound up being shot and even killed by fellow officers in similar situations.

In most instances the responding officer is trained to challenge before pulling the trigger. If those civilians with CCW recognize that they need to "immediately" become passive (drop the gun) they greatly increase their chances of not being shot.



+1

We've had this happen with 2 officers from our department, one from patrol in and one in plain cloths chasing a criminal with his gun out, badge was around his neck but in the chase flipped over his shoulder, got a little tense, but exactly as CoLawman said, plain cloths officer became completely passive and compliant everyone lived to fight another day.

I hope this is trained in CCW courses; I haven't personally taken a CCW course as I can carry via the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, but this should definitely be taught to everyone who is legally able to carry concealed. LEO's are trained to challenge individuals but just as the fog of war effects soldiers under fire, when an LEO responds to shots fired and encounters someone not in uniform with a gun it's going to be a split second judgment call.

In this case I'm just really glad the off duty Ogden officer and on duty Salt Lake officer both made really great split second decisions and we didn't loose a brother to Murphy’s law.

[Jgood]

His family came here in 1998 and still DO NOT speak english. I see this as a hugh problem with modern immigrants, they dont try to assimilate into our society.

[Smokin Joe]

LEO's are trained to challenge individuals but just as the fog of war effects soldiers under fire, when an LEO responds to shots fired and encounters someone not in uniform with a gun it's going to be a split second judgment call.



A "shots fired" call is one thing.

The "Active Shooter" call ratchets it up quit a bit.

If you are a citizen who is carrying a CCW do what you think is right under the circumstances. Keep your head on a swivel for additional threats and the Police. When you see the Police be very active in displaying that you are not a threat to them.

In this day and age of cell phones, 911, and dispatching; information gets mixed up quickly. A sheeply individual maybe calling 911 to report you in as an additional threat, even if you are acting in good faith and justifiably engaging an unlawful threat. So keep in mind that when the Police show up they maybe looking for you as a potential Bad Guy.

[SouthernDZ]

That would be X-Sgt, now death row inmate Hasan Akbar.

Although Akbar confessed to the crimes, military officials for the most part did not believe his religious beliefs had anything to do with the attack. Conservative journalists (all two of them) attributed his actions to a supposed allegiance to extremist Islam. Liberal journalists (all two million of them) tended to propose that Akbar had simply snapped from the stress of constant racial and religious harassment. Akbar's mother told reporters that she believed intolerance for his race and his Muslim faith created tensions within his unit as it prepared to invade a Muslim country.

Waffle, waffle, waffle.

[casey]

Avert your gaze from the statement that Mark Fidel Kools (akbar) made when captured by his "fellow" US military personnel:

"You guys are coming into our countries, and you're going to rape our women and kill our children."

"You guys"? "Our countries ..... to rape our women and kill our children"? This from an American soldier/citizen?

Believer and Infidel, Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. This from a guy who lived in Tenn and LA, and from all indications never left the US.

Nope, nothing to do with the religion of peace here....move along ....nothing to see here....

[Team Sergeant]

If you are a citizen who is carrying a CCW do what you think is right under the circumstances. Keep your head on a swivel for additional threats and the Police. When you see the Police be very active in displaying that you are not a threat to them.



If one lacks the appropriate level of SA they should not be carrying a CCW.

Cops arrive, drop weapon, drop to knees, back to cops, hands on head fingers interlocked. Pray cops don't give you a "tune up.":D

TS

[incommin]

If one lacks the appropriate level of SA they should not be carrying a CCW.

Cops arrive, drop weapon, drop to knees, back to cops, hands on head fingers interlocked. Pray cops don't give you a "tune up.":D

TS


Cops arrive, place weapon on ground, back up three or four steps, drop to knees, hold up hands so cops can see them and wait for instructions......


Jim

[82ndtrooper]

Unfortunatley the carry of concealed deadly weapons is not honored as a right in or on many establishments property. Current law states that any establishment that desires to have a "No Gun" zone on their premisis requires them to post a sing according to their state and or local laws regarding the carry of concealed deadly weapons.

For instance, Texas requires what is referred to as the "30_06" signage in a plainly visible location on the premisis, preferrably as you walk in the door. Many establishments simply alter this law by expressing that it is company policy, and yet without a lawful sign to the contrary. Many CCW holders find this out the hard way when they are approached by the manager of the establishment and law enforcement called to the scene in the preverbial "Man with a gun" call. Generally if the concealed permit holder is valid, and has not demonstrated any behavior that is considered "negligent" or "Wanton Endangerment" they are free to disarm themselves and return to their dinner or shopping, but most are ask to leave and not return in the future with a firearm. If the only place that a permit holder can carry is in his or her home, it's not of any use to arm themselves in public. This is being addressed by grass roots iniatives on a state by state basis to challenge those locations that have not provided their policy by complying with state law for the use of such signage. Personally I deep conceal, and my weapon is my business, not anyone elses. Unfortunatley some dont seem to be able to conceal their weapon or are fanatical about their civil liberties and the 2nd Amendment and right bear arms in public. Open carry is most often seen as a challenge to the law enforcement officers to strip them of their civil liberties for later challenges in a court of law. Depending on your location, open carry can alienate you from your friends and neighbors or instill yet another right that if not used, it is lost.

In this instance with the Utah gunman, it was my undestanding the mall was a "NO GUN" zone. Was this stated after the incident or where there signs that were in compliance with state law ? After all, the gun man didn't seem to have any problem with the unlawful carry of a firearm, so why should we think that company policy or a sign would deter any criminal from carrying ? Only those of us that are law abiding would have disarmed ourselves and left the weapon in the locked glove box of our car or truck. Not much use to us in the car when the criminal is willing and determined to break the law. Personally I'd rather carry and answer to any questions of legality after I am safe and my family is in the clear of this gunman. It's a legal conundrum, but if life and death are at stake, then I'd rather stand in front of a judge than lie on the embalming table at the coroners lab.

CCW/CHL courses are minimal training at best, but case law in several areas of concealed weapons are covered. "In defense of another" "Lesser of two evils" "Deadly force justification" "legal pitfalls" and many more are the majority of the morning and afternoon for a typical CCW/CHL course. In my opinion much is left to be desired from such courses, but how much is necessary ? If I fear for my life or anothers, it generally falls into the "deadly threat" and "deadly force" grey zone, but justification of deadly force alone can be seen somtimes only in the eye of the beholder. In jumps the prosecutor who is looking to advance his or her career and many pitfalls to your "scared to death" argument are going to need further examination. Was deadly force justified ? Each scenario has it's own tweaks and bends, only you know if your life was in fact threatened according to "deadly threat" standards. Those standards are often challenged, but only the person who has acted knows if his or her use of "deadly force" was justified.

[Team Sergeant]

CCW/CHL courses are minimal training at best, but case law in several areas of concealed weapons are covered. "In defense of another" "Lesser of two evils" "Deadly force justification" "legal pitfalls" and many more are the majority of the morning and afternoon for a typical CCW/CHL course. In my opinion much is left to be desired from such courses, but how much is necessary ? If I fear for my life or anothers, it generally falls into the "deadly threat" and "deadly force" grey zone, but justification of deadly force alone can be seen somtimes only in the eye of the beholder. In jumps the prosecutor who is looking to advance his or her career and many pitfalls to your "scared to death" argument are going to need further examination. Was deadly force justified ? Each scenario has it's own tweaks and bends, only you know if your life was in fact threatened according to "deadly threat" standards. Those standards are often challenged, but only the person who has acted knows if his or her use of "deadly force" was justified.


Boy you sure talk alot bout weapons for a financial type.......

I'll have you know I "was" a CCW instructor, you want to call my training "minimal"?

Have you asked yourself why CCW training given by most minimal? Let me give you a clue, it's a "privlige" to drive a car, it's an American's "right" to own a firearm. You have a right (unless you live in a few of the anti-gun states) to defend yourself, not a privilege.

People get what they pay for, you want lessons from Paul Howe, you're going to pay. You want instruction from a guy that he himself has never had any real formal training but passed the NRA Pistol instructor course, go for it. There are thousands of firearm instructors out there, finding a good one is tough for the novice.

Personally I think all that carry better know the law better than they know how to use their weapons.

TS

[82ndtrooper]

Boy you sure talk alot bout weapons for a financial type.......

I'll have you know I "was" a CCW instructor, you want to call my training "minimal"?

Have you asked yourself why CCW training given by most minimal? Let me give you a clue, it's a "privlige" to drive a car, it's an American's "right" to own a firearm. You have a right (unless you live in a few of the anti-gun states) to defend yourself, not a privilege.

People get what they pay for, you want lessons from Paul Howe, you're going to pay. You want instruction from a guy that he himself has never had any real formal training but passed the NRA Pistol instructor course, go for it. There are thousands of firearm instructors out there, finding a good one is tough for the novice.

Personally I think all that carry better know the law better than they know how to use their weapons.

TS


Actually we agree on everything mentioned above. In a perfect world, or at least the United States, one wouldn't even have to complete a CCW/CHL related course to carry a firearm or other deadly weapon. That right is protected under the 2nd Amendment, and the inalienable right to self preservation. However, the right to carry is now considered a "privelige" not necessarily protected by simpling holding a copy of the Constitution in your or my hands.

Minimal training ? Yes, I have asked myself that question, and the answer is fairly obvious....it's a right, not a privilege, at least in some states and jusrisdictions. I'd be interested in your curiculum for the courses that you taught. I'd rather have taken it from someone like yourself, than just another person with his or her NRA certificate. Here in Kentucky, at least in this county, there are only a few options to choose from for the CCW/CHL permit course. It's the quickest easiest way to obtain a certificate that is honored by the state and the county for completion of the necessary course of instuction. My course was from 0800 to 1500 on a single Saturday with completion of firing your weapon 21 times into a B-27 target at 7 yards, with 11 of the 21 shots fired required into the 7-10 ring. Certainly not a Paul Howe or Larry Vickers tactical course, none the less the state keeps it to a minimal just for the reasons mentioned above. It's a right not necessarily a privilege. Although having to take any course at all puts it into the "privilege" category. As you mentioned, like driving a car is a "privilege"

Tactical courses from the likes of Paul Howe and Larry Vickers, or yourself are costly, and I have personally attended Larry Vickers Tactical Pistol course and Blackwaters tactical pistol I and II. I believe both are now being honored by the state of Kentucky for completion of the CCW requirements. Both courses were geared towards tactical employment of the handgun, not as much about case law and deadly threat justification. Never the less, great instruction.

Your are correct, understanding the law and the use of deadly force is more important than dialing the individual up to be a "surgical shot king" Although, marksmenship and CCW related training in the employment of the pistol is not to be taken lightly. This where we, the civillians, have to take this responsiblity to the next level and seek out the instruction from the likes of someone like yourself, or Paul Howe. I'd rather spend my money on training from you or Paul Howe than a new gadget to put on my weapon. What good are night sights and lasers if the individual can not even disasemble his weapon and clean it without having an accidental discharge ?