Kimber's response to malfunctions

[Eagle5US]

So, as a follow up to the Kimber discussion thread, I actually wrote to their custom shop regarding the following concerns: misfeeds, misfires, and failure of the slide to lock to the rear. I also touched on the customer service department's policy of having the customer pay for shipping both ways on a handgun that did not perform to the standard that it should be held.

Here is their response:

CPT. Klapperich,

First and foremost thank you for your service to this great nation. In regards to your concerns I will glad to answer.

In terms of jamming or feeding issues, the first thing to check into, is the fact that Kimber pistols are machined to an extremely tight tolerance and usually require at least 300-500 rounds of break-in before function will be flawless. Another thing to check is the degree of lubricity, the Desert Warrior has a Kimpro finish so it requires less oil for proper function; too much oil will bind the pistol up. Last, the description of misfeeds and the slide not locking back after the last round fired is an indication of lack of spring pressure in the magazine spring. If a magazine change does not solve the locking back issue, then the Custom Shop will send the owner a new slide stop with an extended nose which will more positively lockup with the follower in the magazine. After a proper break-in a Kimber pistol is generally 100% reliable, as long as springs are replaced in the proper service schedule.

When a pistol or rifle needs to be returned for service the Custom Shop requires that the owner pay for shipping to the Manufacturing center, however return shipping is always covered by Kimber. Any issue with a Kimber product will be fixed promptly and returned, after extensive testing is preformed. Kimber will stand behind its products no questions asked for as long as you own the pistol.

If you have any further questions/concerns please let me know and I will be glad to help you.

NOW Since I do not OWN a single 1911 style handgun, and none of my other handguns have caused me to even think of the above issues.....I'd like some educated input on whether or not this is a reasonable expectation when purchasing a 1911. Whether I get the Desert Warrior from Kimber or one from Springfield / Olympia Arms / Colt or any other.....do they have the same issues as explained above due to their "tight tolerances".

Thanks

Eagle

[Roguish Lawyer]

OK, I am now convinced that there is no reason for me to buy a Kimber.

[rubberneck]

Kimbers are great guns when they work. Problem is that they, as you have figured out by now, don't always work. Save yourself the heartburn and send it to a smith who will sort it out in short order. It'll cost you shipping one way and the cost of a reliability package but you won't have problems with the gun. Kimber's customer service sucks to put it mildly. You can go round and round with Dennis at Kimber but it will only annoy the hell out of you in the process.

Smith and Wesson, Springfield and Sig tend to have the best customer service and hassle free RMA's for guns that don't work.

[vsvo]

OK, I am now convinced that there is no reason for me to buy a Kimber.
+1

That shipping policy is pure BS (this is also followed by HK in Alabama). As a civilian, non-FFL holder, I have to go to my nearest UPS hub and ship a pistol overnight, even if it's going back to the manufacturer for repairs. At the cheapest overnight rate, with insurance and the required adult signature, that works out to be about $50. There's a local dealer who will ship for me at his lower rate plus a nominal fee, but he won't accept transfers from CDNN so I refuse to do business with him. Other dealers charge a transfer fee on top of the shipping price. When I sent my Springfield 1911 back for warranty repair they covered shipping both ways, and Sig used to send out pre-printed labels as well.

[Snaquebite]

I have read that some people replaced their mags with Wilson Combat mags and had no problems with feeding and jamming after that. Not sure how valid that is, but figured I'd mention it.

[The Reaper]

I have been through this before with other manufacturers, and most said the same thing.

All guns need break in rounds before reliability can be guaranteed. Frankly, I would not trust a carry pistol I had not put several hundred rounds of ball through, and at least a hundred rounds of my carry ammo, with the mags that I intended to carry with.

Note- when you get the gun, mark the mags with numbers, and keep a round count during break-in noting when malfunctions occurred, what type they were, which mag it was, and what ammo you were using. After the 500 rounds, you can stop the specific count and just keep a round count by boxes of ammo fired.

Some guns will run great out of the box. SIGs, HKs, and Glocks are notoriously reliable. Others (not just 1911s) need the break-in. Frankly, with tight tolerances, the machined surfaces have to wear in. Do you get in a brand new car and go to race it?

With most centerfire pistols sold in the US, the owner will never put 100 rounds through it, so the gun is never fully broken in or tested. It is bought and tossed into a nightstand, safe, or glove compartment, many with no test firing at all. Others may merely have a mag or two through them. Only competitors, serious plinkers, or cops will put more than 500 rounds through a centerfire pistol.

I do not like the comment about running the gun dry, but if it is their recommendation, I would try it. I use plenty of Militech oil and TW-25B grease. Your mileage may vary. Running it slightly dry to start with will increase wear on engagement surfaces, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it may make the gun less reliable during the break-in period.

My biggest beef is that if I have to fire $100 worth of ammo for break-in, and have problems, is it the mags, the ammo, the lube, or the gun? So I send it back ($50 for UPS overnight, due to their employee theft problems, thank you very much), and they say that they have fixed it. Now I have to fire another 500 rounds trouble free before I can carry it. Or send it back again for another problem. I almost wish that the maker would fire the 500 round break in and bill me for the ammo, but I can always use the practice with malfunction drills and mag changes.:D

To answer your question, yes, that is typical for most 1911 makers. I have seen $2500 Les Baers and Wilsons going back and forth the same way. Maybe nine out of ten will run fine. The other one will be a PITA. A Larry Vickers, a Hilton Yam, or a Heinie gun will run perfectly out of the box, after you slap down several grand a wait a few years. With SIGs, Glocks, and HKs, the "bad gun" ratio is probably much lower, maybe one in a thousand.

The bottom line is that I know of no 1911 that I would carry for social purposes out of the box. If you need that, buy something else, put a couple of mags of your duty ammo through it, and you should likely be good to strap it on.

A well made 1911, once broken in, is capable of running reliably like a top. It will still require periodic maintenance to keep it that way, likely more than a more modern type of pistol.

If it could not be made to run reliably, would the world champions of action shooting carry them? At the same time, you have to ask yourself if you are willing to pay the price to carry a reliable 1911. It will be more than a Glock, or a SIG, or an HK. You will likely have to look around to find a good 1911 gunsmith, since there are a lot of gun tinkerers and butchers with Dremel tools out there proclaiming to be smiths.

As with ARs, you can buy a good custom gun, a good factory gun, a bad factory gun, or a Frankengun. The better builders, like MSTN, prefer to fire the weapon for break-in and accuracy testing before shipping it. You just pay for the ammo, and you know it will shoot and run well (with the right mags and ammo) when you get it. Others do not, and you have to break it in yourself, and maybe ship it back a couple of times.

Used guns have to be looked at very closely. I always try to buy from a dealer with a liberal return policy.

Why should you buy a 1911? For the same reason people buy Corvettes, Ferraris, and $75,000 motorcycles. Because you like them. If you just want the gun to reliably go bang for the least amount of money, buy a Glock or a XD. If you want to spend a little more money, buy a SIG. If you don't care what it costs, and want to shoot tight groups as well, out of the box, buy an HK.

Be prepared to spend the time and money to get a good 1911 that runs, get a stock 1911 and break it in/have a real smith tune it properly, or just buy a non-1911 that has proven to run well out of the box.

Those are your COAs as I see it.

TR

[Eagle5US]

Holy Smokes Sir.

THANK YOU for the informative and educated response. What booth are you going to be running at SHOT next year :D

Eagle

[jatx]

Eagle,

If you want a railed 1911 with perfect reliability, keep an eye out for Nighthawk's old Enforcer model. They had 99% of the same features as their Vickers or 10-8 models, but retailed around $1800. Many were built on Caspian railed receivers. I picked one up that I have posted pics of here previously, and it has been nothing but super (a word that could also be used to describe the customer service). Gently used ones pop up occasionally in the $1300 range, close enough to the Kimber to be worth considering. Good luck!

[Team Sergeant]

So, as a follow up to the Kimber discussion thread, I actually wrote to their custom shop regarding the following concerns: misfeeds, misfires, and failure of the slide to lock to the rear. I also touched on the customer service department's policy of having the customer pay for shipping both ways on a handgun that did not perform to the standard that it should be held.

Here is their response:

CPT. Klapperich,

First and foremost thank you for your service to this great nation. In regards to your concerns I will glad to answer.

In terms of jamming or feeding issues, the first thing to check into, is the fact that Kimber pistols are machined to an extremely tight tolerance and usually require at least 300-500 rounds of break-in before function will be flawless. Another thing to check is the degree of lubricity, the Desert Warrior has a Kimpro finish so it requires less oil for proper function; too much oil will bind the pistol up. Last, the description of misfeeds and the slide not locking back after the last round fired is an indication of lack of spring pressure in the magazine spring. If a magazine change does not solve the locking back issue, then the Custom Shop will send the owner a new slide stop with an extended nose which will more positively lockup with the follower in the magazine. After a proper break-in a Kimber pistol is generally 100% reliable, as long as springs are replaced in the proper service schedule.

When a pistol or rifle needs to be returned for service the Custom Shop requires that the owner pay for shipping to the Manufacturing center, however return shipping is always covered by Kimber. Any issue with a Kimber product will be fixed promptly and returned, after extensive testing is preformed. Kimber will stand behind its products no questions asked for as long as you own the pistol.

If you have any further questions/concerns please let me know and I will be glad to help you.

NOW Since I do not OWN a single 1911 style handgun, and none of my other handguns have caused me to even think of the above issues.....I'd like some educated input on whether or not this is a reasonable expectation when purchasing a 1911. Whether I get the Desert Warrior from Kimber or one from Springfield / Olympia Arms / Colt or any other.....do they have the same issues as explained above due to their "tight tolerances".

Thanks

Eagle


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO


Funny, HK's don't require 300-500 rounds for break-in. I own about eight of them and have NEVER had a malfunction. Enjoy your Kimber.:rolleyes:

TS

[Peregrino]

Eagle5US - TR gave you the "real deal" info. I've shot a fair nunber of TS's "modern" pistols and I'll keep my Kimber and Colt 1911s, thank you very much. If you get one that you like/trust, it will still be serving your great-grandchildren 100 years from now. Tactical tupperware may eventually meet that standard but IMHO it isn't there yet. Detractors can say what they want, the 1911 still sets the standard by which ergonomics and trigger pull are judged. FWIW I pay attention to maintenance (but I'm not fanatical - it just isn't required), I buy/use good magazines, I "broke them in" with quality ammo, and I continue to shoot and carry them regularly without problems. Pistols are like wives - an extremely personal choice that either works out or not and that none of your buddies will ever completely understand or agree with. Bottom line - your satisfaction is what's important. My .02 - Peregrino

BTW - I had to ship my firearms via FEDEX, next day air, expensive as h***. UPS in Fayetteville wouldn't touch them. Mine went back to have an ambi safety fitted so I got stuck with the whole bill - not a happy camper.

[x SF med]

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Funny, HK's don't require 300-500 rounds for break-in. I own about eight of them and have NEVER had a malfunction. Enjoy your Kimber.:rolleyes:

TS

Jefe - tell us how you really feel about 1911's sometime, ok? :rolleyes:

[The Reaper]

When the TS dies, he is going to get to heaven and Saint Peter is going to ask him, "Glock or 1911?"

He will then request reassignment instructions to Hell.:D

TR

[Eagle5US]

When the TS dies, he is going to get to heaven and Saint Peter is going to ask him, "Glock or 1911?"

He will then request reassignment instructions to Hell.:D

TR

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

:D

Eagle

[Team Sergeant]

Eagle5US - TR gave you the "real deal" info. I've shot a fair nunber of TS's "modern" pistols and I'll keep my Kimber and Colt 1911s, thank you very much. If you get one that you like/trust, it will still be serving your great-grandchildren 100 years from now.


So will most boat anchors.:D

I've no doubts that a 1911 shot routinely will not last that long; not without several major over-hauls.

Don't forget I've also shot 10,000's of thousands of rounds from 1911's. I've owned quite a few also. Years ago I even got to know my 1911 gunsmith by his first name.:rolleyes:

Never again will I place my life in harms way with a 1911, not when there are better tools on the market today.

TS

[incommin]

I wondered when a reference to Colt's 1911 would come up.. I've carried a Commander (personal protection and off duty gun) for some 18 years. The gun was "slicked up" by the Colt gun shop after I bought it...... she is cleaned monthly....... sees about 500 rounds a year...... and has never failed to function as designed. I've carried it so much and fired so many 1911's while in the Army that I have issues with my department's issued duty gun...... a S&W model 457.

What ever weapon you carry, you got to have faith in it!!!!!!!

I trust my Colt.

Jim

[APLP]

IMHO, with the introduction of reliable, high capacity, lightweight, ergonomic, lower cost, polymer framed handguns, the traditional 1911 products will increasingly lag in the marketplace.

[rubberneck]

IMHO, with the introduction of reliable, high capacity, lightweight, ergonomic, lower cost, polymer framed handguns, the traditional 1911 products will increasingly lag in the marketplace.

Reliable, high capacity, lightweight, ergonomic, low cost, ploymer handguns have been around for 20+ years. Ruger makes them, Sig makes them, H&K makes them, Springfield makes them, CZ makes them, S&W makes them and of course Glock makes them. Most of those companies have offered a cheap and reliable polymer framed hand guns for at least 7 years now, if not longer, and the 1911 market is still as hot as it has ever been.

[incommin]

Which semi auto pistol frame has won more titles than any other??????

I think it is the 1911........


Jim

[HOLLiS]

My thoughts are pretty simple on this. For the QP's they know what they need and why, failure to function in a firearm or any piece of equipment is not a option for them.

For me, and with most shooters, the targets we engage do not shoot back. A failure may be frustrating but not deadly. Also for many shooters, there are movies that "instill" in them what what want to look like, what they want to shoot, and it is all a harmless game generally that keep a lot of people employed.

[kgoerz]

Well if it's the magazines like in my situation, one of the mags came with the pistol. Thats unacceptable of course. But it's not the mags. I am deployed now and will admit of the three types of mags I have at home I cant say if one is a Wilson. I will take mine to Shooters Pawn as suggested by someone on here. I worked close with Shooters Pawn when I was at SFAUC and they are stand up guys. Yes the Kimber not chambering a round when the mags are on their last couple of rounds is a problem but it is the only problem that can be fixed I am sure fairly easily. I am a firm believer in modern technology and do own said modern .45 Cal pistols. Like stated above weapons manufactured, especially Pistols machined to an extremely tight tolerance are going to have problems out of the box. Drop a few grains of sand in a competition race gun and see what happens. If all else fails there is always the stick with a nail on the end of it..........

[Gene Econ]

My thoughts are pretty simple on this. For the QP's they know what they need and why, failure to function in a firearm or any piece of equipment is not a option for them. For me, and with most shooters, the targets we engage do not shoot back. A failure may be frustrating but not deadly. Also for many shooters, there are movies that "instill" in them what what want to look like, what they want to shoot, and it is all a harmless game generally that keep a lot of people employed.

Hollis:

True except that the best competitive shooters are looking at their next year's income in almost any National title. I think they are far more demanding of absolute perfection in mechanical performance than the military as a whole and this probably includes its share of SF guys.

Now before everyone gets in an uproar, most competitive shooters who are serious will have their rifles or pistols totally rebuilt, mostly based on round count which probably equates to twice a year. Also, they won't accept anything other than perfect function and mechanical accuracy.

The Army would do well to follow this example of round count and complete rebuild, instead of waiting for a part to break and replacing only that part. The problem is getting the guys to record the round count. Even with SF guys. Also, there is a weird acceptance in the Army of weapons that aren't perfectly reliable or whose accuracy is lousy. I know why such an attitude exists but it still bothers me.

I have never been impressed with the reliability of issued rifles, carbines, or pistols and as far as I know, guys aren't allowed to bring their own blasters to war. I do know that SFGs and Ranger Battalions are authorized civilian armorers who can do depot level maintenance but take my word for it, they are kept on a very tight leash when it comes to making adjustments to weapons or weapons parts. Too bad because most of these civilian armorers can turn issued weapons into extremely reliable and precise weapons.

Gene

[TF Kilo]

I'll stick with TS' on this one, although my experience with 1911's isn't nearly in depth as his, they just don't fit.

Sometimes you have to pay to play. Is your personal safety worth the lower price?

[APLP]

Reliable, high capacity, lightweight, ergonomic, low cost, ploymer handguns have been around for 20+ years. Ruger makes them, Sig makes them, H&K makes them, Springfield makes them, CZ makes them, S&W makes them and of course Glock makes them. Most of those companies have offered a cheap and reliable polymer framed hand guns for at least 7 years now, if not longer, and the 1911 market is still as hot as it has ever been.

It would be interesting to know the actual numbers. Very few L/E departments issue or authorize single stack 1911's, even smaller numbers for high capacity .45acp 1911's. I don't know of any departments that issue 9mm, 357Sig, .40 cal, or 10mm 1911's. I have never seen a cop carry any 1911 as a BUG.

I don't think public indoor ranges rent or sell more 1911's than Glock, Sig, HK, SW, or XD handguns. I bet just the XD .45acp sales are rapidly outpacing $1000.00 plus 1911's... half the price, twice the capacity, softer recoil for the wife or kids, lighter weight, same grip size, and pretty much goes bang every time out of the box.

I never thought I would say it but, if I had could only have one handgun, it would not be a 1911.

[Leozinho]

I bet just the XD .45acp sales are rapidly outpacing $1000.00 plus 1911's... .


Speaking of price, now that STI has the Spartan below $600 and Taurus has a loaded 1911 at less than $500, Kimbers look even less attractive.

[FearTheCats]

Team Sergeant:

You do know that SIG stands for "Sure Isn't Glock.":)

[snatching up laptop, running away at Mach 4, diving in trench, resuming typing]

No, just kidding, SIGs are great, and if they put a thumb safety on their DAK 220 or if the firearms instructor will sign off on the single-action 220, I might even consider retiring my 1911.

kgoerz:

That was moi who suggested Shooters Pawn. And when you ask Greg how much, and he says "oh, don't worry about it," make him take your money!!! I think I have succeeded in paying him a total of $5.00 for fixing my 1911s and my match AR. One of these days I'll get even with him!

APLP:

It's true that few departments authorize, and fewer departments issue, 1911s for on-duty open carry. But mine is one of them. Everybody says "liability" but I don't see how. If I ever get asked in court why I carry a 1911, then I'll follow the advice of constitutional scholars in the Bronx: "yiz gotta ah-TIC-ya-late." You can do about anything so long as you can articulate the reason for doing so.

My reasons are that (1) I can hit with the first shot and every shot because of the 1911's trigger design, thus reducing the chance of "airballs" hitting innocent persons, and this is the same reason the FBI HRT carries 1911s, and (2) the manual safety enables me to cover a subject with the safety on, providing protection against negligent discharge while being ready to fire almost instantly, and also the safety will slow down or prevent a criminal from making it fire if they disarm me in a fight. Last year one of my brother deputies had his SIG 220 taken away by "Bonnie" while he was handcuffing "Clyde" and the only reason why he is still with us is that they did not totally feel like killing him right then. Mas Ayoob is not perfect but I get a lot from his work, and he says no officer has ever been killed with his own 1911.

My reasons against carrying a DA/SA pistol are (1) after you fire the first shot from a "safe" DA pull, you are now running around with a cocked gun in your hand--just like a 1911--except you're still thinking that it's a "safe" gun, and (2) it's very possible to forget to decock before holstering under stress, whereas if I forget to wipe the 1911 safety back on before holstering, it still has the grip safety and the Safariland SLS rotating hood blocking the hammer. There's no free lunch in firearms design.

Kimber:

Many autopistols need some break-in. I got a Walther P5 and it jammed twice per magazine for 50 rounds, but since then it's eaten anything. But most shooters don't know that. Why don't YOU do the break-in!?

After you do that, then show me how you can make a 1911 malfunction by squirting too much oil in the RIGHT PLACES, such as slide rails. I think the "excessive lubrication" problem is people lubricating the wrong places, such as the firing pin channel. Since somebody has already dropped the name of Vickers, he told our carbine class last year that "excessive lubrication" is a myth, unless you're using the wrong lube for the environment, and that someday he's just going to throw a gun in a tub of oil, drain off the excess, and show that it works fine.

Everybody:

When you take your gun to UPS for shipping and they ask you what's in the package, answer "machine parts." Show me where that's illegal.

[vsvo]

When you take your gun to UPS for shipping and they ask you what's in the package, answer "machine parts." Show me where that's illegal.
A guy to whom I traded a pistol told me he did this all the time, and shipped ground. I believe the statute states you have to declare only if you are shipping to someone other than a licensed manufacturer, importer, dealer, or collector. So it's not illegal.

However, it is a violation of UPS company policy. Thus, if the box gets damaged or lost during its journey in the brown truck UPS can deny the insurance claim, based on the Terms and Conditions of Service (http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_12012007.pdf).

Handguns . . . will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services . . .

p. 5

UPS shall not be liable or responsible for the loss of or damage to any package containing articles that shippers are prohibited from shipping, that UPS does not or is not authorized to accept for transportation, that UPS states that it will not accept, or that UPS has a right to refuse.

p. 40

[APLP]

APLP:

It's true that few departments authorize, and fewer departments issue, 1911s for on-duty open carry. But mine is one of them. Everybody says "liability" but I don't see how. If I ever get asked in court why I carry a 1911, then I'll follow the advice of constitutional scholars in the Bronx: "yiz gotta ah-TIC-ya-late." You can do about anything so long as you can articulate the reason for doing so.

Lot's of rationales to go around, fact is, right wrong or indifferent, most all departments think the liability is higher with the "1911 single action trigger", no sweat for me one way or the other.

My reasons are that (1) I can hit with the first shot and every shot because of the 1911's trigger design, thus reducing the chance of "airballs" hitting innocent persons, and this is the same reason the FBI HRT carries 1911s, and (2) the manual safety enables me to cover a subject with the safety on, providing protection against negligent discharge while being ready to fire almost instantly, and also the safety will slow down or prevent a criminal from making it fire if they disarm me in a fight. Last year one of my brother deputies had his SIG 220 taken away by "Bonnie" while he was handcuffing "Clyde" and the only reason why he is still with us is that they did not totally feel like killing him right then. Mas Ayoob is not perfect but I get a lot from his work, and he says no officer has ever been killed with his own 1911.

Lots of assumptions in the above, maybe yes to some, maybe no to others, no sweat for me one way or the other. I don't know too many folks who carry guns for a living who would make the claim that the specific duty handgun they carry guarantee’s them the ability to hit the target with the "first and every shot"... I would also be hesitant to compare my ability to put rounds on target with the small number of FBI or military special ops folks who do carry the 1911for a living. Unless you train and operate the way they do, you would most assuredly lose your challenge in court.

My reasons against carrying a DA/SA pistol are (1) after you fire the first shot from a "safe" DA pull, you are now running around with a cocked gun in your hand--just like a 1911--except you're still thinking that it's a "safe" gun, and (2) it's very possible to forget to decock before holstering under stress, whereas if I forget to wipe the 1911 safety back on before holstering, it still has the grip safety and the Safariland SLS rotating hood blocking the hammer. There's no free lunch in firearms design.

At this point with respect to your above, I have to say you don't know what you are talking about. You should not assume what folks know and don't know here on PS or any other forum where folks shoot bad guys for a living.

Kimber:

Many autopistols need some break-in. I got a Walther P5 and it jammed twice per magazine for 50 rounds, but since then it's eaten anything. But most shooters don't know that. Why don't YOU do the break-in!?

I am nobody here on PS, but have more rounds through 1911's than you could count. I am not impressed with your challenge.

After you do that, then show me how you can make a 1911 malfunction by squirting too much oil in the RIGHT PLACES, such as slide rails. I think the "excessive lubrication" problem is people lubricating the wrong places, such as the firing pin channel. Since somebody has already dropped the name of Vickers, he told our carbine class last year that "excessive lubrication" is a myth, unless you're using the wrong lube for the environment, and that someday he's just going to throw a gun in a tub of oil, drain off the excess, and show that it works fine.

I apologize for my lack of tact and grasp of the English language from this former Marine to the professional soldiers forum, but you sir are simply a dumb ass.

[Team Sergeant]

I apologize for my lack of tact and grasp of the English language from this former Marine to the professional soldiers forum, but you sir are simply a dumb ass.

LOL

Fearthecats,

He's right, your arguments don't hold water. They are simply opinion of which I don't think you've enough experience to comment on.

The reason the FBI HRT carries 1911's has nothing to do with "hitting on the first round". It does however have every thing to do with certain USASOC units carrying 1911's.

You don't know APLP, I do. I'd venture to say he's been shooting .45 longer then you've been breathing oxygen. He's probably gained a little experience along the way also.;)

Tell me, is your knowledge of FBI HRT first hand or are you just spouting "hearsay"?

Defend your 1911 if you feel you must but leave out rumor and hearsay. I don't care what you read in some "tactical shooting " magazine either, most of those are written by self made "experts".

Team Sergeant

[82ndtrooper]

LOL

Fearthecats,

He's right, your arguments don't hold water. They are simply opinion of which I don't think you've enough experience to comment on.

The reason the FBI HRT carries 1911's has nothing to do with "hitting on the first round". It does however have every thing to do with certain USASOC units carrying 1911's.

You don't know APLP, I do. I'd venture to say he's been shooting .45 longer then you've been breathing oxygen. He's probably gained a little experience along the way also.;)

Tell me, is your knowledge of FBI HRT first hand or are you just spouting "hearsay"?

Defend your 1911 if you feel you must but leave out rumor and hearsay. I don't care what you read in some "tactical shooting " magazine either, most of those are written by self made "experts".

Team Sergeant


Agree !! Although I'm a fan of the 1911 platform, it's not necessarily my first pic if I had to carry a sidearm 12 hrs a day. 1911 fans often cite the need to engage the safety prior to reholstering the sidearm, but at the same time they are dubiously transfixed by the Glock !! Hmmmmmmm................a sidearm that has no safety, externally speaking, to engage, and is arguably in single action mode, or "condition Zero" at all times that a round is chambered, even when reholstered. Hence the number of UD's that have been reported by carrying the Glock in "condition zero" at all times. I relize some Glock expert will try to tell me that it has three safety's, none of which are a decocker, or external firing pin blocker engagement. I just dont buy the "Trigger Thingy" as any real safety.

Many 1911 manufacturers have captilized on the "Special Ops" tags and titles. "HRT" "SRT" "TRP" GRP" "SF" and the list goes on. How many SIG P226's have been sold with the poster of the Navy SEAL emerging from the deep blue sea with the mantra "To hell and back reliability" ? I believe SIG even sold a "NAVY" designated model with an anchor etched on the frame. :rolleyes: (Save your money) Just because LASWAT uses a Kimber 1911 isnt going to make me think it's the best possible choice for me. Personally I'll stick to 9mm Luger and an H&K USPf.

Personally I think 1911's lack mag capacity, leaving very little room for margin of error should the need arise to clear a building with the sidearm. Thank god I dont have to do it ! At least in the tactical sense, or law enforcment profession.

I've never fired my 1911's with the belief that single action is going to gaurantee that my first shot is going to be placed COM. That's why I alway's decock my USP prior to engaging any of my paper targets. I generally do not miss the DA shot COM, but then again, it's not under any induced stress like that of combat. As for that matter, I'm not even a believer that the .45 ACP cartridge is any better than using a hot 9mm Luger, especially the +p+ SXT or Corbon DPX Barnes. Both are JHP's so that argument may not hold water when having to use FMJ's.

I've been shooting .45 ACP for well over 20 +years, and most of the time, I'll take an H&K USP or the SIG P220 over the 1911 platform any day of the week.

Are department here locally actualy looked into some 1911's as their standard sidearm. Two of the men stated that they couldn't understand how you carry a gun with the hammer cocked with a safety on. Condition One seemed to be unsafe in their minds. These same two PD officers had been carrying Glocks for 4 years. Guess they never really understood what they had been carrying.

[Smokin Joe]

Personally I think 1911's lack mag capacity, leaving very little room for margin of error should the need arise to clear a building with the sidearm. Thank god I dont have to do it ! At least in the tactical sense, or law enforcment profession.



I carry a 1911 on duty in as a Law Enforcement Professional. I don't feel under gunned.

Also anyone who clears a building by themselves and/or with only a pistol (I don't care what make, model, or caliber) is a fool in my opinion.

ETA: When I know I'm going on the offense I bring a long gun, if I think I need to go on the offense I bring a long gun. Basically the only time I don't bring a long gun is traffic stops or reports of late crimes.

[El Cid]

First, TR that was a magnificent summary on page 1.

Second, let's all imagine for a second that the patents for Glocks, Sigs, HK's, etc. have expired many years ago. Now anybody with a machine shop can legally make and sell a G17, or a USP45, or a Sig 229, etc. They even get to call them by the same model name/number. I'd bet the quality and reliability would vary greatly from one manufacturer to another. Some would be bought and run great out of the box, others would require expensive "rescue" efforts. That is basically how I view the 1911 today.

Using that premise, to state that 1911s as a whole are unreliable just seems silly at best. Countless companies produce them and some are better than others. Unfortunately because of the market and prices, the crappy ones cost about the same as the quality 1911s. This makes it tough to sift through the various offerings and get a weapon you can count on. Now, for most people - especially those who are not "gun types" (like most LE and military folk), why try to figure out whose 1911s run and whose suck? All they need to do is buy a Glock, Sig, XD, HK, etc. and generally speaking the gun works as advertised. We all know that no gun is perfect (my G22 has had more problems than all the guns I have every owned/shot combined - but I am smart enough to realize it's not the norm).

I also agree with those who can see the fact that a loaded Glock is less safe than a loaded, C&L 1911 or other SA gun (Hi-Powers, USPs, CZs). I work for an agency that allows only SWAT/HRT folks the choice of a 1911. The rest of us cannot be trusted with such a weapon and must carry Glocks (not counting the grandfathered Sigs and Smiths). I laugh everytime that comes up because both guns have 5lb trigger presses and only the 1911 has a manual safety. I'd give a novice a loaded 1911 or Hi-Power before I'd give them a Glock. Of course agencies have more in mind than safety. They have to worry about cost of the weapon, MX costs, etc. And if they go the 1911 route, they have to wade through all the various manufacturers to find good ones for the reason I mentioned in the first paragraph.

This post is already longer than I wanted, so I'll STFU now. :)

[FearTheCats]

Lot's of rationales to go around, fact is, right wrong or indifferent, most all departments think the liability is higher with the "1911 single action trigger", no sweat for me one way or the other.
Why do they "think" that?

Lots of assumptions in the above, maybe yes to some, maybe no to others, no sweat for me one way or the other.
Based on your experience, which ones do you think are good or wrong, and why?

I don't know too many folks who carry guns for a living who would make the claim that the specific duty handgun they carry guarantee’s them the ability to hit the target with the "first and every shot"...
Didn't mean to come across that way, but then I did say "I CAN" instead of what I should have said: "I AM MORE LIKELY TO than with a long DA pull." So please consider any guarantees of first and every shot accuracy revoked.

I would also be hesitant to compare my ability to put rounds on target with the small number of FBI or military special ops folks who do carry the 1911for a living. Unless you train and operate the way they do, you would most assuredly lose your challenge in court. ... At this point with respect to your above, I have to say you don't know what you are talking about.
I did not say I could shoot as well as FBI, spec ops, or anybody else. I'm not the most experienced or best trained 1911 shooter in the world. But what I do for a living is litigation (although I've asked to be put on full time at my department) and legal research, and even though you know the 1911 well, I don't see where you're qualified to comment on what will or will not work in court. I'll be glad to look at any legal authorities you know of that specify how or how much you must train with a 1911 or any other design.

You should not assume what folks know and don't know here on PS or any other forum where folks shoot bad guys for a living.
What did I assume everybody knew or did not know?

I apologize for my lack of tact and grasp of the English language from this former Marine to the professional soldiers forum, but you sir are simply a dumb ass.
:) You wouldn't be the first or last to arrive at that opinion after reading something I wrote. You might even have meant to say "assclown." All I meant to do was say why I personally choose to carry a 1911. Would you like me to carry something else? If so, what? If so, why?

Team Sergeant:

I did not mention any "tactical shooting" magazines, just one of their contributors, Mas Ayoob. I've never met him but I have read a lot of his books and articles, and he has some good points with some basis in experience. If I needed an expert witness, I'd sure consider him.

All I said about the HRT was that (1) they carry 1911s--and that is not hearsay. I couldn't immediately find anything on FBI's site that says what HRT carries, but according to Springfield Armory Inc., HRT and FBI regional SWAT teams bought at least some SAI 1911s; and (2) because that design helps them hit better, which is ... well, I don't have a direct quote from anybody at FBI that says so, but that's what I've always figured the reason was. If you know that the real reason was different, I will sure stand corrected.

Nobody else has to do what I do, and you're right Team Sar'nt, many better and more experienced personnel will disagree with what I do and why I do it. Then again, at least a few people who know what they're doing, including my department's command structure and firearms instructors, DO agree with me. All I'm saying is, I will carry a 1911 as long as I'm both allowed to and nothing clearly better is available. But if I'm not allowed to at some point, I can learn to win with whatever they give me.

[Team Sergeant]

Team Sergeant:

I did not mention any "tactical shooting" magazines, just one of their contributors, Mas Ayoob. I've never met him but I have read a lot of his books and articles, and he has some good points with some basis in experience. If I needed an expert witness, I'd sure consider him.

All I said about the HRT was that (1) they carry 1911s--and that is not hearsay. I couldn't immediately find anything on FBI's site that says what HRT carries, but according to Springfield Armory Inc., HRT and FBI regional SWAT teams bought at least some SAI 1911s; and (2) because that design helps them hit better, which is ... well, I don't have a direct quote from anybody at FBI that says so, but that's what I've always figured the reason was. If you know that the real reason was different, I will sure stand corrected.

Nobody else has to do what I do, and you're right Team Sar'nt, many better and more experienced personnel will disagree with what I do and why I do it. Then again, at least a few people who know what they're doing, including my department's command structure and firearms instructors, DO agree with me. All I'm saying is, I will carry a 1911 as long as I'm both allowed to and nothing clearly better is available. But if I'm not allowed to at some point, I can learn to win with whatever they give me.

You didn’t need to mention any "tactical shooting" magazines articles or "firearms experts" your writing reeks of them.

I'll ask again, do you or do you not know first hand if the FBI HRT uses 1911’s or did you just read that too? Cannot answer a simple question? You are a full time lawyer and a part time cop, you should be able to answer the question.

I need not hear about your departments command structure and DO. It’s you spouting crap on this board not them. There are millions of gun owners that think like you, all read the same gun articles and pay homage to the same self made firearms experts. Here’s a secret you may not know, I've destroyed some of these "expert" firearms witness testimony in court and the client he attempted to defend is currently resting in a state prison for 48 years.

Spare us your opinion concerning weapons until you get a few decades employing them. This is not a request.

Call me "Team Sar'nt" again and I’ll rid the board of you.

TS

[82ndtrooper]

All I said about the HRT was that (1) they carry 1911s--and that is not hearsay. I couldn't immediately find anything on FBI's site that says what HRT carries, but according to Springfield Armory Inc., HRT and FBI regional SWAT teams bought at least some SAI 1911s; and (2) because that design helps them hit better, which is ... well, I don't have a direct quote from anybody at FBI that says so, but that's what I've always figured the reason was. If you know that the real reason was different, I will sure stand corrected.

FEARTHECATS,

There's alot of inconsistency in the above paragraph. I suspect your admiration for the 1911 platform is based soley on the idea that a HSLD outfit like the FBI HRT carries them, or at the very least you've read that they do. I've never put much faith in any of the handgun mags, and Soldier of Fortune. Mas Ayoob has made a living writing for these mags, and I fear he is more about writing than real world tactics. At least in this day and age.

"because the original design helps them hit better" This sounds more like an 18 year old with his first handgun than a lawyer and officer of the peace. Not something I would expect from someone that is or has been trained beyond that of hitting paper targets at an indoor range. You've mentioned that you attended a tactical pistol and carbine course with Larry Vickers. I would hope that almost every LEO officer has seen more than the 2 weeks at the state academy under highly monitored target fire. I too spent a weekend with Larry Vickers in Fayettville, N.C. this past year. In fact, he complimented me on the use of the H&K USP platform, not the 1911. I learned a great deal, but after returning home one has to continue to employ that training or it's lost. Much like my golf swing. I'm not in the business of clearing a room or making a hard entry, but it was worth the vacation to Fayettville, to fire off the pistol with some instruction.

Personally I could care less what the FBI HRT carry. Their needs are different than mine. I dont presume to know all scenarios of any deadly threat encounters, but I do know that I am not given any advantage by using a pistol that the FBI HRT carry. I'd rather be 100% dead accurate with a crappy pistol than only 50% with a 1911. Hence the reason I carry what works for me, not what works for someone else. I own a Taurus 24/7 Pro .45 ACP that is hands down a better pistol than any of the 1911's that I own. Taurus isn't touting any of their pistols being carried by any HSLD outfit. My bet is that if the HSLD operators were handed the Taurus, they'd make it work for them, not insist on what the FBI HRT carry. My Taurus holds 12+1 and allows me to shoot straight, something I cannot say for any of my 1911's.

[BrianH]

All I said about the HRT was that (1) they carry 1911s--and that is not hearsay. I couldn't immediately find anything on FBI's site that says what HRT carries, but according to Springfield Armory Inc., HRT and FBI regional SWAT teams bought at least some SAI 1911s; and (2) because that design helps them hit better, which is ... well, I don't have a direct quote from anybody at FBI that says so, but that's what I've always figured the reason was. If you know that the real reason was different, I will sure stand corrected.

A friend of mine is a member of the FBI's SWAT teams (not HRT), and he carries a Glock 21, FWIW.

[El Cid]

A friend of mine is a member of the FBI's SWAT teams (not HRT), and he carries a Glock 21, FWIW.
SWAT/HRT agents are issued a SA 1911. They do not have to carry it however (might be required for call-outs - never asked about that). They can still carry their issued weapon (Sig or Glock), or an authorized personally owned weapon (G21 is on that short list). Most of the SWAT agents I work with do carry their 1911s all the time, but I have a few friends that choose G22s, G23s for day to day work and the 1911 for call-outs.

FWIW, one of our SWAT teams dumped their 1911s for G21s. But, they have had continual problems with the G21s.

[82ndtrooper]

A friend of mine is a member of the FBI's SWAT teams (not HRT), and he carries a Glock 21, FWIW.

Let's be clear. The quote that you have in your post is that of "FEARTHECATS" I dont know why it was not blocked and quoted properly.

I responded to the quote with the first sentence being "There are some inconsitency's"

Glock 21.................another crappy handgun IMHO ;) But if it works for them, that's their bus.

[FearTheCats]

You didn’t need to mention any "tactical shooting" magazines articles or "firearms experts" your writing reeks of them.

I'll ask again, do you or do you not know first hand if the FBI HRT uses 1911’s or did you just read that too? Cannot answer a simple question? You are a full time lawyer and a part time cop, you should be able to answer the question.
No, I have not personally seen HRT members carry 1911s.

I need not hear about your departments command structure and DO. It’s you spouting crap on this board not them. There are millions of gun owners that think like you, all read the same gun articles and pay homage to the same self made firearms experts. Here’s a secret you may not know, I've destroyed some of these "expert" firearms witness testimony in court and the client he attempted to defend is currently resting in a state prison for 48 years.
I did not know that.

Spare us your opinion concerning weapons until you get a few decades employing them. This is not a request.
Will comply.

Call me "Team Sar'nt" again and I’ll rid the board of you.

TS
:eek: I'm truly sorry! I meant absolutely no insult. That's how I hear others pronouncing "Sergeant" and that's how I address the sergeants I know. No one has ever said I should not do so. I stand corrected.

82dtrooper:

I have been forbidden to talk about weapons any more, so I won't respond to anything you said.

[Team Sergeant]

Let's be clear. The quote that you have in your post is that of "FEARTHECATS" I dont know why it was not blocked and quoted properly.

I responded to the quote with the first sentence being "There are some inconsitency's"

Glock 21.................another crappy handgun IMHO ;) But if it works for them, that's their bus.

82ndtrooper,
This is our (Special Forces) board. The next time you address an SF candidate or otherwise you will be gone.
While we value your opinion we do not wish you to dispense authority on our behalf.
Think twice before you post.

TS

[82ndtrooper]

82ndtrooper,
This is our (Special Forces) board. The next time you address an SF candidate or otherwise you will be gone.
While we value your opinion we do not wish you to dispense authority on our behalf.
Think twice before you post.

TS

Roger that !!