Schmidt Bender Short Dot

[brianksain]

Are any of you using these? Opinions?

My take:

Pluses - Awesome glass, true multi-task optic, tough.

Minuses: EXPENSIVE, heavy.

In a Larue mount, with the #7 reticle ... it's the shizzle for a cop sniper's AR.

BK

[NousDefionsDoc]

What are you running it on?

[82ndtrooper]

Are any of you using these? Opinions?

My take:

Pluses - Awesome glass, true multi-task optic, tough.

Minuses: EXPENSIVE, heavy.

In a Larue mount, with the #7 reticle ... it's the shizzle for a cop sniper's AR.

BK

How many cops use an AR as a "Sniper Rifle" ???.................wouldn't an Remington 700, or H&K PSG be the rifle of choice for SWAT/SRT snipers ???

[Sinister]

I love the (MILSPEC) version of the Short-Dot with one exception: eye relief is critical (too close or too far and you get severe shadowing).

I've found the best mount for it is probably the Larue.

Dave

[The Reaper]

I love the (MILSPEC) version of the Short-Dot with one exception: eye relief is critical (too close or too far and you get severe shadowing).

I've found the best mount for it is probably the Larue.

Dave

The LaRue SPR mount?

TR

[Tuukka]

Having used the Short Dot at ranges from 1 - 350 metres. The optic quality is typical excellent S&B quality. At ranges from 1-100 metres the sight is very fast to use. But, due to to the reticle being in the first focal plane and the reticle type, the field of view is "busy" at longer ranges than 100 m, especially on smaller or or badly visible targets.

The new 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE, in essense a Short Dot II, should be arriving here in a matter of weeks. It has a slightly longer tube and most importantly, the reticle is in the second focal plane and the reticle is also the FD7.

[FearTheCats]

Brian, great to see you here. I get my gear intel at 10-8 Forums (where I've been lurking forever, someday I'll scan my ID and ask to be let in). When I bought my patrol carbine last year and had enough ching to get any optic I wanted, I knew from 10-8 that I had to move heaven and earth to find a Short Dot. I'm only a part-time auxiliary deputy and have to come up with my own equipment, and I'll only need a rifle once in the next 20 years probably, but that one time, I'll really need it. I had to call literally a dozen Schmidt & Bender dealers to find the only factory-new Short Dot in-country last August, and I'm glad I did.

It works very much as advertised and the only problem is that when it goes from a cold car trunk to a warm humid building, the lenses fog over as would any scope. No prob--just use the sling to lever off the LaRue SPR-E, flip up the iron, and drive on. At first I had my Short Dot in a regular SPR, but my Neanderthal eyebrows were colliding with the scope tube, so I went with the -E. I've mounted and dismounted probably 50 times without losing zero.

I have the CQB reticle with the mil dots, actually hashes, in the center. With 11 illumination detents on the rheostat, the red dot is visible in any light. 8 is the default setting, 7 is better for night, 9 for bright day. I looked through a Nightforce 1-4x in daylight and could hardly tell which part of the reticle was supposed to have been illuminated. Not so with the Short Dot--you can see that dot anywhere. With the dot off, the reticle itself is good to go during daylight, or at night with my SureFire 910 white light.

I'm no LE sniper, and 82ndtrooper is right that precision marksmen are better off with Rem 700s etc. (very few departments have or can afford a $9,000 H&K PSG), and my carbine is a Smith M&P-15 M4gery with the service-grade chrome-lined barrel--not the epitome of tackdrivers. However, in our rural county, SWAT is what you do to flies when you are trying to sleep. Whoever's on duty must handle whatever goes down, with whatever is in the patrol car. So, I occasionally work on head shots at 100m, at low and high magnification, dot on or off, with both duty loads and match loads. Especially with the latter, I'm confident that if Johnny Jihad shows up with a bulky vest, I can interrupt his train of thought while staying out of range of flying nuts and bolts.

I took Larry Vickers' basic carbine class in October and my Short Dot helped me fire quickly while actually HITTING STUFF, which Larry seems to feel is important for some reason. He is also the one who pushed S&B to give us the Short Dot in the first place. When we backed up to the 100yd line, he acknowledged that those who had irons, EOTechs, Aimpoints etc. might be at a disadvantage to those who had scopes, but that's life in the big city. I agreed, as I cranked the ring to 4x. One of the other guys took a long look through my Short Dot and exclaimed in wonder, "it's so CLEAR!" That's the best thing you can say about a piece of glass.

I can live with the weight because I know it adds to durability and waterproofing. Only two picky things would I change: keep the dot small at all magnifications because on 4x it covers too much space, and extend the auto dot shutoff to 12 or better yet 24 hours so I can turn it on at the beginning of the shift and know it'll be there later. As it is, I have to remember to tell the deputy I'm riding with to "whoa, pop the trunk, I gotta turn my scope back on." Sight alignment and trigger control works with any sight, but you're only as good as your equipment allows you to be, and I'll take all the help I can get.

[NousDefionsDoc]

How many cops use an AR as a "Sniper Rifle" ???.................wouldn't an Remington 700, or H&K PSG be the rifle of choice for SWAT/SRT snipers ???
Not necessarily. You might want to watch this discussion for a while. You may learn something.

Tone is hard to determine on the internet, so I am wondering why you put quotation marks around sniper rifle. And if you really want to discuss the way they do things, I've found they respond better to "LEOs" than "cops".

Now, if you have a question reference the S&B Short Dot sight, feel free to ask. If you want a class on Selection of Sniper Weapons Systems for Law Enforcement use in the United States, start another thread. I'm sure Brian and others will be glad to assist.

[Team Sergeant]

Are any of you using these? Opinions?

My take:

Pluses - Awesome glass, true multi-task optic, tough.

Minuses: EXPENSIVE, heavy.

In a Larue mount, with the #7 reticle ... it's the shizzle for a cop sniper's AR.

BK

Do you want a marksman or an assaulter?

Expecting both with a "multi-task optic" IMO is not a good idea. Especially with the amount of training (or lack thereof) some departments accomplish yearly.

Assault, support & security.

Why don't we make all the assaulters marksmen and wait the bad-guys out?:rolleyes: (oops, we tried that at WACO)

FearTheCats,

I'm no LE sniper, and 82ndtrooper is right that precision marksmen are better off with Rem 700s etc. (very few departments have or can afford a $9,000 H&K PSG),

Very few departments require/need an HK "PSG". 99.99% of the countries LEO's would do just fine with bolt guns sold at Wal-Mart.

[82ndtrooper]

Not necessarily. You might want to watch this discussion for a while. You may learn something.

Tone is hard to determine on the internet, so I am wondering why you put quotation marks around sniper rifle. And if you really want to discuss the way they do things, I've found they respond better to "LEOs" than "cops".

Now, if you have a question reference the S&B Short Dot sight, feel free to ask. If you want a class on Selection of Sniper Weapons Systems for Law Enforcement use in the United States, start another thread. I'm sure Brian and others will be glad to assist.

Tone was not intended to be sarcastic, merely that designating an AR as a precision rifle intended for "Sniper" use would appear to be a poor choice, unless that rifle was a Crane/Knights Mk12 or Mk11 SPR system. The average Leo carries an Armalite or Bushmaster. As was stated, not the epitome of precision rifles for longer distance precision fire. The task could, I suppose, be done with an AR, but with an AR platform that was task designated for "Sniper" use utilizing a Harris bi-pod and higher powered glass, a heavy bull type barrel and most likely a Leopold. But, this would not be an entry weapon system platform. Hence the question of the use of the AR as a designated sniper system.

Would the S&B Short Dot be the best choice for a sniper ?? From what I've read and it's design specs, It wouldn't be my first choice for sniper duty. But, then again, I'm only speaking from the aspect of my hunting experience with high powered scopes and limited experience with red dots and hollowgraphics. So yes, I'm out of my depth with a multi task optic. It would seem that for the cost of the S&B Short Dot, a police dept could purchase two AR's and Two ACOG's for the cost of two S&B's.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I believe the average engagement distance for police marksmen is somewhere around 75 meters.

[82ndtrooper]

I believe the average engagement distance for police marksmen is somewhere around 75 meters.

With that distance, then an AR should be just fine. As for the use of the S&B, that's another question. Parallax and eye relief would be my first concern, even at 75 meters. In daylight, I'd want a 4x with 1/4 MOA and a rather large objective lens adjustable to varying distance. I'm relating this to hunting game, not any experience as a military or LEO sniper duty. The targets are both organic and moving none the less.

[x SF med]

I believe the average engagement distance for police marksmen is somewhere around 75 meters.

NDD-
If 75m is the range for most engagements, lots of practice wit hiron sights at ranges over that (100-200m) would be great to get the muscle memory prior to fitting optics, wouldn't it. Actually at that range, you could throw your pointy stick with the nail and get 80% accuracy. I'm way out of practice, and a bit old school - but still think that good iron sight marksmanship, to train yourslelf to get a good picture is crucial before moving over to optics, create the good habits prior to adding technology.

just my .02, fire away.

[FearTheCats]

Yes, x_SF_med, I agree with learning irons first and training on them regularly. I shoot highpower competition with my match AR so I get practice at 200, 300, and 600 yards. I still stick with irons when shooting bullseye pistol, not least because that is what you must master to go Distinguished. If you can do irons, you can DO optics, but not always the other way around.

82ndtrooper, the Short Dot is among the more forgiving optics in the eye relief department. You can move it fore and aft in the LaRue mount, and try different collapsible stock positions, until you find the sweet spot. It's true that you can buy about two ACOGs ($900-1100 list price) for the price of one Short Dot ($2200 list price). This is not always how to make a good purchasing decision, e.g., I can buy eight Lorcin .380s for the price of the TRP 1911 I carry on duty, but why would I?

I have no experience with the ACOG and therefore no opinion on the ACOG, other than to note (1) all models are fixed magnification. The USMC RCO is 4x and not what I would prefer for 25m and in. Compact ACOGs are available in 1.5x which is not what I would prefer for 50m and out; and (2) ACOGs are tritium powered and battery-free, but they are not immortal. Short Dots use a $7 watch battery that lasts for months. Should the battery run out, I can replace it in one minute. Should I not have one minute or another battery, my Short Dot is still a riflescope with a simple helpful reticle. I think I've made the right choice and I'll bet my Short Dot outlives any weapon I put it on.

I can't comment on LE precision rifles and optics, having no experience with those either. Then again, it's academic because I'm not authorized to carry bolt rifles on patrol. Whether or not my AR is optimum for every task, it's the only game in town and I must learn to win with it. I know I can reliably hit opponents located anywhere from the end of the flash suppressor to 100m downrange with what I have, so I'm deliriously happy.

I just try to get the most suitable equipment I can, and learn to win with it at any task I might encounter. This thread is supposed to be about the Short Dot, and based on my experience so far, my Short Dot is a reliable force multiplier for my patrol carbine; I'd buy it all over again; and I'd recommend it to anybody for that mission.

[NousDefionsDoc]

With that distance, then an AR should be just fine. As for the use of the S&B, that's another question. Parallax and eye relief would be my first concern, even at 75 meters. In daylight, I'd want a 4x with 1/4 MOA and a rather large objective lens adjustable to varying distance. I'm relating this to hunting game, not any experience as a military or LEO sniper duty. The targets are both organic and moving non the less.
Tone -as I said, hard to read on the 'net. No big deal.
Shoot a lot of organic game through glass partially obscured by curtains while they are holding a hostage do ya?:)

I don't know if the S&B is the best glass for it either. I would guess that would probably be up to the guy laying behind the gun.

They do things differently than we do.

[82ndtrooper]

[QUOTE=NousDefionsDoc]Tone -as I said, hard to read on the 'net. No big deal.
Shoot a lot of organic game through glass partially obscured by curtains while they are holding a hostage do ya?:)

That's one shot I dont want to take !! But, If I had to, I'd certainly not want an Armalite AR for the job. The M24 SWS or the H&K PSG with some awfully expensive glass and a beta blocker to keep my heart rate down. :munchin I'd prefer to just watch.

[82ndtrooper]

FEAR THE CATS,

Dont get me wrong, I understand that your maximizing the efficiency of the weapon systems platform available for a multitude of tasks. Tasks, that I do not wish to have to employ with my AR's. Should I ever have to if the SHTF, then I'd rely on my Triji ACOG 4x or the Aimpoint CompL 2. This is one event that I pray I personally never have to worry about.

By the way, nice choice of sidearms. The TRP 1911. I own the TRP "Operator" and it's the only 1911 that I have not had to break in or send back for further improvement machining. It's a down right "TAC DRIVER" Actually just las week the nice UPS girl provided me with a package from Surefire holding an X200 weapons light with pressure pad (Slimline activation switch) As a side note. Surefire has discontinued the sale and manufacturing of the Military and Nitrolon P series lights. Glad I have both with separate rail adapters for the USP and the Beretta FS.

[Leozinho]

With that distance, then an AR should be just fine. As for the use of the S&B, that's another question. Parallax and eye relief would be my first concern, even at 75 meters. In daylight, I'd want a 4x with 1/4 MOA and a rather large objective lens adjustable to varying distance. I'm relating this to hunting game, not any experience as a military or LEO sniper duty. The targets are both organic and moving none the less.


82nd:

NDD said that 75m is the AVERAGE distance, which means often the engagements are closer. (I've heard/read/imagined that the average distance is even less than 75m). I think Brian is going to tell us that many times he's really pulling perimeter security at rather close distances where he needs the wide FOV of a 1x scope. Other times he's further away and needs to the magnification. Your suggestion of a fixed power ACOG doesn't fit the bill.

Brian:

I heard you a few weeks back on the Matt Burkett podcast talking about Adopt a Sniper. For those that don't know, if I remember correctly Brian and his colleagues have sent more than a $1 million in donated gear to folks in the military overseas.

[brianksain]

The average distance for an American LE sniper shot is 51.3 yards.

There have been longer (513 yds.) and shorter (5 yds.) ... both with 308s.

The 513 was this year and the numbers may fluctuate a little since the 51.3 yard number was arrived at.

NOTE: The 168 SMK did NOT exit on the 5 yard shot ... fascinating.

However, the old 75 yard, average cop sniper shot FBI stat ... is a myth.

The FBI does not, nor have they ever, kept statistics on sniper shots by law enforcement personnel. That old myth has been around for 30 years.

The American Sniper Association ( www.americansniper.org - different than www.AmericanSnipers.org ) - polled every LE agency in the US with over 50 personnel and a SWAT team. We went back as far as the agency kept records and followed up on every shoot we could locate, compiling emprical data. The 51.3 yard number came out of that survey, 14 states of which I personally conducted the interviews.

Just like the QPs here, the role of the sniper in law enforcement depends entirely upon the mission.

Look out your front door, across the street, at your neighbor's house.

That is where we work every day.

If some whacko comes running out the front door with his Raven Arms target model blazing at 51.3 yards ... a red dot is nice to have.

If that same whacko is holding a hostage in the front door, at 51.3 yards ... in the dark, with a pistol taped to his hand ... a crosshair is much better.

The number 7 Reticle in the Short Dot does both.

It has a fine vertical upper crosshair, and heavy lower/horizontal posts.

It also has a red dot in the center of the crosshair intersection with the turn of a turret.

The reticle is fine for both precision and CQB work.

The SPR reticle for the same optic was designed by QPs if I am not mistaken and more appropriate for the missions they undertake. I find that that reticle will fade and can be hard to discern in low light (when most of our stuff happens).

I find that the tube is almost just as fast as my Aimpont for across the bedroom distances if I have to dump the bolt gun and assist on an entry (which happens more than one would think).

(The glass is unbelievably clear and the poster on the newer Zenith version is correct as well).

Likewise, if my entry team is working a Columbine type scenario and there are other snipers deployed outside to cover same ... I will ditch the .308 and grab the AR. There are lots of 150 yard hallways in the high schools here and the entry crew likes having a true long rifleman cover their play ... (whether they will admit it openly or not is an entirely different matter).

Same sniper mission ... just an adaptation of tactics and deployment.

We are issued a short AR with a red dot, a 16 inch carbine with either a red dot or scope and a .308 bolt gun with big glass.

Pick the right tool for the job.

It has taken years for us to get to that point ... most LEOs don't have SOCOMs budget. We often have to buy what we need ourselves ... but I digress.

... The last three guys I have set up on have been at less than 20 yards.

Just the way it played out. No way in any of those instances to get the distance we would rather work from.

On the last one, I grabbed a good old 870 and did not feel undergunned.

The B/G was expected to come running out the door, guns blazing as previously described and a good old load of buckshot would have served him well had it played out that way.

The AI stayed in the Eberlestock Phantom pack at my feet.

Overpenetration with the .308 is a real issue when working around entire neighborhoods comprised of 75 year old, wood frame houses, with many cops and bystanders all over the area ... and sometimes ... the .223 is just better suited for the job.

The term COP is just fine by the way.

If a cop gets offended for being called a cop ... he is probably a sissy and taking himself waaay too seriously.

Thanks for the compliments otherwise.

My guys work hard. Very proud of our service people.

BK

[brianksain]

What are you running it on?

Sorry NDD, overlooked your question. Apologies.

Currently on a Colt 6920 but may be on either a Larue or MSTN build after SHOT SHOW.

Sure like the look of the first Mod SPR ... thinking of having Wes at MSTN build the same only with a 16" bbl. Kind of an SPR carbine/Recce.

Handy as a hatchet I would think.

BK

[Team Sergeant]

I find that the tube is almost just as fast as my Aimpont for across the bedroom distances....
BK

That's what I would expect.

Thanks for all the info Brian.

See you in a few days.

TS

[FearTheCats]

Wow 82ndtrooper, glad you have a good result with the TRP too. After switching to Chip McCormick mags with Tripp Industries innards, I haven't had a single stoppage. Mine doesn't have a rail but my dept doesn't authorize sidearm weaponlights anyway.

I hope I don't wind up in any terrible situation either. I'm lucky to work in a county that's well-behaved most of the time, but people do straaange things now and then. Like anybody faced with the possibility of violence, I make plans according to what the enemy CAN do, not just what he'll PROBABLY do. ACOGs and Aimpoints are wonderful and will serve well in MOST any situation, and highpower shooters prove every weekend that iron sights still work as well as they ever did.

I went outside this afternoon and shot my patrol carbine for the first time in a month. At 100m from mag-supported prone (the squishy Magpuls are just the ticket to steady out your "monopod") it was easy to keep Sellier & Bellot M193 center mass, with the Short Dot on 1.1x with or without the dot turned on. In fact, WITH the dot, I had to aim a little higher after dropping a couple rounds below the 5-zone. Cranked up to 4x for some "headwork," the cheap rounds grouped right at 2" from 100m. Ten rounds Black Hills factory new Nosler 77s also grouped 2", with four rounds making one ragged hole and the others kind of like satellites in orbit around it. Any of them would have stopped the fight. I need to practice more often for sure, but 2" at 100m from a service barrel with service trigger is a good start.

We did in-service training on Rapid Deployment (school shooter) last year and our instructors make it clear that in the event of active shooters, it's A-OK to kill them. We do not contain; we go in. Unfortunately, we were briefed to only carry sidearms, even though our high schools have long halls and big gyms. Funny that our OPFOR player was allowed an AR with blanks!

Brian, what can you tell us about the 513-yard shot!? And I agree, the term COP is an honor.

[brianksain]

Brian, what can you tell us about the 513-yard shot!?

Unfortunately, not much at the moment.

The shot is still pending Grand Jury review and to speak publicly on same would be unprofessional. There is some internet chatter on the incident but very little substance.

Typical standoff with some maniac shooting at the cops. State Trooper took a very long shot. No hostages present I don't think. Nuff said.

Heretofore, the longest tru LE sniper shot was taken by a pal with Pennsylvania State Police. Right over a hostage's ear at 185 yards. Very squared away sniper.

A group of DC Capital Police guys lit up a fool named Norman Mayer who was sitting in a van, threatening to blow up the Washington monument years ago.
Many shots were fired, some from over 400 yards but it was simply a fusilade of bullets from numerous folks.

Worked well by the way ... just not the typical one shot stop:cool:

[swatsurgeon]

BK,
You mentioned the overpenetration issue with the .308. Unlike the military that is restricted to which ammo to utilize (period) on a specific mission, the LeMas round may offer you a distinct advantage....PM APLP and he'll clue you in to 2 other urban/suburban agencies already testing/using for just this reason. May be nice to change ammo rather than weapon (mission specific of course)

ss

not trying to hijack this discussion to ammo......just an fyi

[Sinister]

Brian, I've shot the Short Dot on 14.5 M4s, 16-inch recces, and an 18-inch go-fast gun that belongs to SFC Joe H. The two shorter carbines used the Larue SPR-E mount, but I can't remember what the mounts were on the 18. Joe put 45-degree add-on rails and a JP short range sight on the 18, so that when you tilt the rifle to the left you get a post and U-notch arrangement about where your left hand is holding the fore-end. When the rifle is straight up-and-down your close-range irons are at 2 o'clock.

Mark Larue will cut you a cop deal on the SPR-E at SHOT if you ask him nice. :D

[brianksain]

Ran into TR and TS at SHOT along with Mr. Reeve and Mr. Harsey.

Great to see you guys again.

Mark Larue is a pal. Texas boy and all ...

Got him hooked up to attend the National Patrol Rifle Conference as a vendor.

Also did the same for QP Mark Kinsler of SOG Armory.

Maybe see you in Vegas next trip Sinister.

Best regards friends,

bk

[Irish_Army01]

I love the (MILSPEC) version of the Short-Dot with one exception: eye relief is critical (too close or too far and you get severe shadowing).

I've found the best mount for it is probably the Larue.

Dave


The shadowing is a problem on the 6x42 also..