View Full Version : Guardsmen overrun at the Border and RETREAT
Team Sergeant
01-06-2007, 10:06
This was MSM headline news and no one posted it. I was actually waiting for someone to write something about the incident.
Our soldiers are fighting and dying in foreign countries for people they don't know.
Yet those NG soldiers that defend OUR BORDER RETREAT.
They Retreated on our own soil, American soil.
Now I understand why we're allowing 20 million illegals a free ticket to citizenship, as a nation we have no guts. We've lost the ability to take a stand against anything or anybody.
This is got to be the saddest crap I've read in years.
Someone please let me know when you need the American flag lowered in tucson arizona and I'll come and get it and defend it with my life.
Team Sergeant
Guardsmen overrun at the Border
12 News
Jan. 4, 2007 02:44 PM
National Guard unit stormed while patroling the border
Border attack raises security concerns
A U.S. Border Patrol entry Identification Team site was overrun Wednesday night along Arizona's border with Mexico.
According to the Border Patrol, an unknown number of gunmen attacked the site in the state's West Desert Region around 11 p.m. The site is manned by National Guardsmen. Those guardsmen were forced to retreat.
The Border Patrol will not say whether shots were fired. However, no Guardsmen were injured in the incident.
The Border Patrol says the incident occurred somewhere along the 120 mile section of the border between Nogales and Lukeville. The area is known as a drug corridor. Last year, 124-thousand pounds of illegal drugs were confiscated in this area.
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/borderstory0104-CR.html
Someone please let me know when you need the American flag lowered in tucson arizona and I'll come and get it and defend it with my life.
Team Sergeant
TS you would not be alone.
TS you would not be alone.
Before I make any comments on this, I would like to know what there ROE's are, and if they even had any ammo with them. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, you can't blame them for retreating IF they were taking fire, and didn't have any bullets to return fire.
dr. mabuse
01-06-2007, 10:37
*
Surgicalcric
01-06-2007, 10:55
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51417
When Border Patrol Agent Ignacio Ramos pulled the trigger last February, all he knew was that his partner was lying on the ground behind him – bloodied from a struggle with a fleeing suspect – shots had been fired and now, it appeared, the drug smuggler he was pursuing had turned toward him with what looked to be a gun in his hand.
In the split-second he had to respond, Ramos determined the course of his and his partner's lives – federal prison for the next 20 years for assault with serious bodily injury, assault with a deadly weapon, discharging of a firearm in relation to a crime of violence, violating civil rights and obstruction of justice...
Maybe the NG soldiers were apprehensive to stand their ground after the above happened or maybe their ROE wasnt well defined. There are other articles which mention the CANG being sent to the border unarmed.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16483867/
TUCSON, Ariz. - National Guard troops at an observation post near the Mexico border were forced to flee a group of armed people, who later ran into Mexico, authorities said.
The troops, who are not allowed to apprehend illegal border crossers, withdrew safely and no one was injured, said National Guard Sgt. Edward Balaban...
When are we gonna take the leashes off our watch dogs (LEO, USBP, Military) and let them do their damn jobs?
Crip
From what I've read the NG are unarmed, and are not allowed to apprehend illegals from entering. What the hell...
Kyobanim
01-06-2007, 10:56
I do know that they are not allowed to apprehend anyone, but I can't find any info on the ROE for this situation. They are just supposed to be there to observe and report.
ObliqueApproach
01-06-2007, 10:57
To the last cartridge......!
http://www.lincolntribune.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5749
A Border Patrol agent, who requested anonymity, says that the well-armed intruders were drug traffickers who are fully aware US National Guard troops are prohibited from carrying any type of weapon and have been ordered not to confront lawbreakers coming across the border. The Guard troops are not allowed to apprehend illegal entrants, as well.
"Basically, the National Guard troops are doing what private groups such as the Minuteman Project have done at US borders -- observe and report," said a Homeland Security Department official.
http://www.lincolntribune.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5749
Except the minutemen are armed.
Team Sergeant
01-06-2007, 11:40
A Border Patrol agent, who requested anonymity, says that the well-armed intruders were drug traffickers who are fully aware US National Guard troops are prohibited from carrying any type of weapon and have been ordered not to confront lawbreakers coming across the border. The Guard troops are not allowed to apprehend illegal entrants, as well.
"Basically, the National Guard troops are doing what private groups such as the Minuteman Project have done at US borders -- observe and report," said a Homeland Security Department official.
lincolntribune.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5749
Ever wonder “how” the drug traffickers became fully aware of this little known fact?
WHEN SPECIAL FORCES USED TO PLACE SOLDIERS ON THE MEXICAN BORDER WE NEVER PLACED THEM IN HARMS WAY WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.
ANY HOMELAND SECURITY, STATE OR FEDERAL AGENCY PLACING SOLDIERS IN HARMS WAY WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES SHOULD THEY THEMSELVES BE RELIEVED OF COMMAND AND CHARGED WITH GROSS NEGLIGENCE IF AND WHEN ANY MEMBER OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY IS INJURED OR KILLED BY AN ARMED DRUG RUNNER.
HAVE WE ALL LOST OUR F***ING MINDS? DOES ANYONE IN LOCAL, STATE, OR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT POSSESS AN IQ HIGHER THAN A COMMON FIELD MOUSE?
All I can think is corruption on a huge level, local state and federal.
"Sgt Smith I see armed drug runners."
"Let’s all retreat."
"But who will stop them if not the US Military."
"No one Pvt Jones, no one."
(Just pray the jihadist never confront us on our soil.)
Ambush Master
01-06-2007, 11:44
Have '60 WILL TRAVEL!!!!:mad:
Ever wonder “how” the drug traffickers became fully aware of this little known fact?
I have no doubt how, TS.
And though I support our President on most matters...this is complete and utter BS. I absolutely cannot wrap my brain around the logic, actually the lack thereof.
CoLawman
01-06-2007, 12:12
One needs to read "The Reapers Line" by SA Lee Morgan II to fully appreciate the gross negligence in posting UNARMED US military in that area. There should be heads rolling over this decision!
The Mexican Federal Judicial Police are bought and paid for by the Cartels. Our federal agents have exchanged gunfire on numerous occassions with these corrupt FEDERAL law enforcement agents of the Mexican Mafia, I mean Mexican Government. A corrupt government that rises all the way to Vicente Fox and now Felipe Calderon. For years the Mexican government has not concerned itself with diplomatic sensitivities. Yet our government has determined that it is best to remove any risk of creating an "international" incident by not arming our soldiers.
I believe the placing of the US military on our borders is proving to be nothing more than a press release. It is window dressing to the n-th degree.
Even more bothersome is that the Mexicans recognize this operation as nothing more than a paper tiger and will continue to exploit this sham. By placing the National Guard on the border, have we reassigned the armed border patrol agents to other areas? I would assume this is the case.
Our National Guard did not RETREAT they FLED for their lives. To retreat implies that we were formerly on the attack or managing a defensible position. IMO this was not the case, thus they FLED as any unarmed civilian would have done under similar circumstances.
God help America!:(
Snaquebite
01-06-2007, 12:23
My company (B/2/3) did over 12 months (two deployments 92/93) doing JTF6 missions. The ROE was really screwed up...I'll do some digging and see if I can find it. Bottom line was you couldn't even have a mag inserted until you were fired upon. We forgot to read that part though... In 97 a marine almost went to prison for defending his and others lives...the jury refused to indict though.
Snaque (looking through old files)
EDIT: Still looking but ran across this...shows how screwed up ROE can be for the guy on the ground....
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a524da543e3.htm
Blame it on the powers that be.
Jaeger1980
01-06-2007, 12:47
Troops take guns, so Tijuana cops won't patrol
Associated Press
Published: January 5, 2007
TIJUANA, Mexico (AP) -- Local police in Tijuana weren't patrolling the violent border city Friday after soldiers sent by President Felipe Calderon to crack down on drug gangs and corruption seized most of their guns.
Tijuana Public Safety Secretary Luis Javier Algorri said that without arms it was too dangerous for the force of 2,000 police to patrol the streets of the city where 13 officers were shot dead last year.
"This is an unfortunate situation because it leaves agents defenseless and does not allow them to serve the community," Algorri said in a news conference.
On Tuesday, Calderon sent 3,300 soldiers and federal police to Tijuana to hunt down drug gangs. The soldiers swept police stations and took officers' guns for inspection on Thursday amid allegations by federal investigators that a corrupt network of officers supports smugglers who traffic drugs into the United States.
On Friday, soldiers monitored those leaving and entering Tijuana, while federal and state police manned checkpoints within the city limits.
Dubbed "Operation Tijuana," the mobilization is the second major military offensive against drug gangs by Calderon, who took office on December 1 promising to crack down on organized crime.
Last month, Calderon sent 7,000 troops to his native state of Michoacan in western Mexico, plagued by execution-style killings and beheadings as rival gangs fight over marijuana plantations and smuggling routes.
Drug gangs are blamed for more than 2,000 murders nationwide in 2006 and have left a particularly bloody trail in Michoacan and Tijuana, where more than 300 people were slain last year.
Opposition politicians and residents have expressed doubt that Calderon's highly publicized campaign will have much of an effect.
His predecessor, Vicente Fox, also designated thousand of agents to fight drug trafficking, arresting several alleged top kingpins during his six-year term. But those actions appeared to spark more violence as other traffickers battled to take over the smuggling routes of those killed or detained.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/01/05/tijuana.cops.ap/
edit: Let me know if you need construction plans of the former DDR border system. :rolleyes:
Read it the other day and listened to the discussions on the local radio.
When I arrived here in May I couldn't understand how Janet got elected. I thought for sure she was going to be handed her $ss in November. Nope - re-elected.
Sends the NG to the border (March 2006), asks the Military to pay for it and ties their hands. This is from last year:
link (http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/119161.php)
"She said while troop levels will change, the mission will not.
"They are not there to militarize the border,'' she said. "We are not at war with Mexico.''
Napolitano said she wants troops doing things like helping to staff border checkpoints and conducting cargo, vehicle and electronic identification checks, assisting local law enforcement and working with the Department of Public Safety in their campaign to keep stolen vehicles from entering Mexico. The governor's decision comes in what promises to be a tough reelection year for her, with Republican foes saying she has been slow to protect the state from illegal immigration. "
.02
Team Sergeant
01-06-2007, 14:50
Troops take guns, so Tijuana cops won't patrol
Associated Press
Published: January 5, 2007
TIJUANA, Mexico (AP) -- Local police in Tijuana weren't patrolling the violent border city Friday after soldiers sent by President Felipe Calderon to crack down on drug gangs and corruption seized most of their guns.
Tijuana Public Safety Secretary Luis Javier Algorri said that without arms it was too dangerous for the force of 2,000 police to patrol the streets of the city where 13 officers were shot dead last year."
I don't care about the cesspool some call mexico. We've known for decades most of mexico's leaders are corrupt scum, the police, even more corrupt, they are scum and deserve the cesspool they live in.
What bothers me is the fact knowingly we place our soldiers in harms way with ROE written by those that have never they them selves been in harms way.
I guess we've all forgotten what happened to the Marines in Beirut, Lebanon. Their "ROE" caused the death of hundreds of Marines. The commanders issued that ROE should have been placed in prison.
We do not learn.
Not until Pvt Jones gets a bullet in his head for doing his job.
I think I'll write Senator McCain and see what he has to say.
You in homeland security should be ashamed as well as the AZ NG Commanders.
I think I'll write the President also. I'm pissed. The mexican scumbags should be the ones running with their tails between their legs, not our soldiers.
This is simply disgusting.
Team Sergeant
I do know that they are not allowed to apprehend anyone, but I can't find any info on the ROE for this situation. They are just supposed to be there to observe and report.
From what I remember all they had was radio's foir this mission, no ammo for their weapons (if they could have any) and yes it was just a observe and report, call the BP if they saw anything. ROE will be driving this.
I don't care about the cesspool some call mexico. We've known for decades most of mexico's leaders are corrupt scum, the police, even more corrupt, they are scum and deserve the cesspool they live in.
With all due respect, Team Sergeant;
While I agree that Mexico is a great cesspool created by those who should be held responsible for making it so and, therefore, deserve whatever conditions they live in and whatever fate they have coming to them (getting whacked, etc.) for choosing to be the unethical, immoral scumbags they are, I must point out that there are plenty of decent people who are forced to live in that cesspool in fear of both the police and the cartels.
I know many such decent people in Mexico and many happen to be relatives (half my aunts, uncles, and cousins are in Mexico). The fortunate few who have money and work visas have fled their country to live in border cities such as the one where I live. Some of them are tied up in those rackets and deserve what they have coming to them. Others aren't. They don't deserve what has been happening or what is now happening.
The violence of the drug war which involves police, Mexican military, and plain old gangsters in Mexico fighting over the I-35 corridor for smuggling has spilled over to our side of the border. Kidnapping insurance has become a common service offered by insurance agencies here. A shootout occured in an upscale area here when some jokers tried to kidnap someone. The victim got away from his captors and they pulled their Kaleshnikovs and chased this guy into a Target store. When they came back out, the police were waiting for them with weapons drawn. Even our Mayor, a retired FBI Agent, was on the scene. We don't deserve this. If we in America don't deserve this, the people in Mexico who are not wound up in the rackets, live decent lives trying to abide by the laws of right and wrong (the only real laws in that cesspool) don't deserve the oppression that has been caused by the corruption and is being caused by the violence. I have friends and family over there that have been hit by these Sh*tbags to one extreme or another. They don't deserve that anymore than a good, law abiding American does.
I hate criminals of every sort and guise from the corrupt President to the common street thug. It must be said, however, that we as human beings who have taken upon ourselves the duty and responsibility of helping other human beings can ill afford to generalize an entire country: at least in cases such as Mexico. There are very bad things happening to a lot of good people over there.
Mexicans don't deserve the corruption in their country and they certainly don't deserve the bloodshed that has come about because of it. No one deserves such things.
Excuse me if this is off-topic, but I felt it necessary to address this.
Best Regards,
Texian
Team Sergeant
01-06-2007, 22:04
With all due respect, Team Sergeant;
Mexicans don't deserve the corruption in their country and they certainly don't deserve the bloodshed that has come about because of it. No one deserves such things.
Best Regards,
Texian
Well then it's time the decent people take back their country don't you think?
Viva La Revolution!
First, I work with a NG unit and they all have rifles... so i know the Army still issues them. Why they didn't have them, who knows? My most educated guess would be because it would be somehow linked to the Posse Commitatus (sp?) Act, and should the NG soldiers attempt to apprehend these individuals crossing the border the would be "policing" the country.
Now, what I don't see is why if the soldiers were out on an LP/OP and unarmed, why couldn't they have some BORTAC teams act as a QRF so that in a case such as this one, yeah the recon units may have to withdraw, but you have armed LE units on the way at the same time?
Also, if they are working to support Border Patrol, why not arm them to the same standard and hold them to the same ROE as the other BP agents?
Bottom line, they should have the ability and the RIGHT to defend themselves should they at any time feel the threat of immenent danger to their lives, just as I and all the other soldiers here do.
Just my opinion.
¡Que víva, Sargento!
I read in the newspaper about a vigilante group that is going about capturing and beheading cartel members. I'll look for it online and post it.
But, as you suggest, it is high time that the whole of the Mexican public stood up against all this. It's an outrage.
Edit: Found the article.
Mexican Vigilantes in Michoacan (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/23/america/LA_GEN_Mexico_Vigilante_Ads.php)
Noslack71
01-07-2007, 00:03
I was with a small group of active duty advisors helping the CA 40th ID set up LP's/OP's for the Drug War 89-90. Seems like a fair number of CA guardsmen had immediate family members in Mexico. The LP's/OP's location, equipment, etc. was well known prior to the first day of the mission. I am guessing that things are the same in AZ.
Noslack
If NG Soldiers give intel such as that to traffickers be they relatives or not, they should be charged appropriately and tried.
Such an individual is clearly part of the problem.
I remember hearing a few weeks ago about a National Guardsman who was arrested by BP because he had a bag of coke in his pocket that they found as he sat down to attend a briefing and some spilled out... I wonder if he was "helping out."
Kyobanim
01-07-2007, 07:21
I remember hearing a few weeks ago about a National Guardsman who was arrested by BP because he had a bag of coke in his pocket that they found as he sat down to attend a briefing and some spilled out... I wonder if he was "helping out."
And this could be hearsay.
Please refrain from posting things like this unless you have verifyable facts to back it up and will post them in public.
Once again the baby boomers have left us all stunned with their logic. We will see more of these kinds of illogical policies as they gain more political power, I am convinced. They're the same crowd that they were in the Vietnam era, just dealing with different issues, and now they have a lot more power than they did then!
How in the World the Greatest Generation that so many of us admire and respect for all that they did, from winning WWII to sending an American to the moon, parented such a group - I will never understand. The Greatest Generation begat the worst generation, and that becomes more and more apparent as they are coming into the zenith of their political power. Of course there are exceptions among this group, but AS A GROUP, they are to be blamed for a lot of this.
It should be a crime to order troops to do ANYTHING other than fight and win wars! In the case of the NG, they should also be allowed to respond to disasters, but that's it! These people seem to think of us as nothing more than a group of warm bodies ready to respond to any and all purposes that make them look politically sensitive on a moments notice, and somebody needs to put a stop to this! If you need border guards, then hire border guards! Don't send in the troops unless you send them in to do THEIR JOB and with THEIR TOOLS ie - guns and bullets!
Kyobanim
01-07-2007, 09:37
Once again the baby boomers have left us all stunned with their logic. We will see more of these kinds of illogical policies as they gain more political power, I am convinced. They're the same crowd that they were in the Vietnam era, just dealing with different issues, and now they have a lot more power than they did then!
How in the World the Greatest Generation that so many of us admire and respect for all that they did, from winning WWII to sending an American to the moon, parented such a group - I will never understand. The Greatest Generation begat the worst generation, and that becomes more and more apparent as they are coming into the zenith of their political power. Of course there are exceptions among this group, but AS A GROUP, they are to be blamed for a lot of this.
It should be a crime to order troops to do ANYTHING other than fight and win wars! In the case of the NG, they should also be allowed to respond to disasters, but that's it! These people seem to think of us as nothing more than a group of warm bodies ready to respond to any and all purposes that make them look politically sensitive on a moments notice, and somebody needs to put a stop to this! If you need border guards, then hire border guards! Don't send in the troops unless you send them in to do THEIR JOB and with THEIR TOOLS ie - guns and bullets!
Wait till you see what's following us.
CoLawman
01-07-2007, 10:13
Wait till you see what's following us.
Now that was funny, ROFL. I wish I was that witty!
Kyobanim,
I certainly don't mean any offense towards you personally as a baby boomer. I'm 32, and I can't say that my generation is destined for greatness. There's certainly not a whole lot of evidence for that statement yet, but then again, people my age aren't out marching on the capitol mall wearing beads by the thousands in protest of this war either.
My Dad is a boomer too, and he certainly doesn't agree with this policy. He and many others volunteered for service in Vietnam; but it was certainly not a popular decision to make amongst his classmates at the time! All I mean is this, that if history can record that the WWII generation was the greatest, then it can certainly point to the one that followed with a well deserved label also. My .02
The Reaper
01-07-2007, 12:43
Now see, you learn something new every day.
I would have lost money on this, because I believed that lethal force applied by soldiers of the United States against armed intruders crossing the international border was one of the Constitutional justifications for a military force in our country.
Why did we invade Mexico chasing Pancho Villa? (Yes, I realize he was raiding towns, but the principle, IMHO is the same.)
Do those justifications no longer apply to defending the borders of this country?
ROE are written by lawyers and politicians, not combat soldiers.
You can bet that the use of the NG on the border was a political move to convince us that the US Government was serious about illegal activity on the border, and the decision not to arm them, provide ammo, or to allow them to defend themselves (much less the border) under the ROE was made by a politician who wanted to avoid the adverse publicity that would ensue should a shooting occur.
What do you think would have happened should a Guardsman have been killed during this incident? Would the media have ignored it?
Deployment of soldiers to defend the sovereign territory of the nation without allowing force of arms is ridiculous. The ROE should be revised immediately.
What is the right thing to do for the US and her citizens?
TR
What do you think would have happened should a Guardsman have been killed during this incident? Would the media have ignored it?
TR
I'm sure they would have. But the reverse question is, what would the media of done had a Gaurdsmen, shot an illegal.
At some point someone (and I stand by my statement that the decision makers in this case are likely to be boomers) had to decide that they wanted to send the military, but they didn't want there to be any possible chance that they would actually kill or harm anybody while "defending the border". So, they took away their bullets! Of course it is absolutely Constitutional to deploy soldiers to defend the borders allowing them to use lethal force - but it should be criminal to deploy the military ANYWHERE to a real world mission and take away their guns or ammunition! If you are afraid of people getting killed or injured, send in the Peace Corps! Anybody, literally even the wheelchair bound, could sit and watch the border and report what they see. You don't need, and should not use the military if you don't want them to actually do their job. These guys aren't there to defend the border! In this case, it appears that they were not even allowed to defend themselves, much less the borders!
I'm sure they would have. But the reverse question is, what would the media of done had a Gaurdsmen, shot an illegal.
Maybe the same thing they are doing to the two border agents :mad:
I have signed petitions all over the place for the last year.
Yet another thing that simply defies reason.
Ran a quick google to find a recent link: Link (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53448)
I'm with the NYARNG and we currently have Soldiers assigned to the AZ BP mission called Operation Jump Start. They do have weapons and a 30-round magazine. However, they are not allowed to load the magazine in their weapon unless they are faced with hostiles who show intent to injure. Their orders are to report any illegal activity to BP. They are not "officially" allowed to detainee or interfere with any foreign entity unless their own lives are in danger.
Yesterday, I spoke to one of my guys about this incident whose on the scene. Apparently, it involved some Soldiers from another state's ARNG. They did have weapons on them, but it's unclear if their magazines were loaded/available. The ROE does allow them to shoot armed hostiles approaching their positions if the hostiles show non compliance to verbal commands to turn back to Mexico or intent to harm. There were at least six hostiles carrying what appeared to be AK-47s, shots were fired by the hostiles. More than likely the incident was a result of poor leadership at the LP/OP. It's currently being investigated, but they believe it was a result of one or two things:
a) They had no security, it was night time they may have fell asleep or weren't paying attention, by the time they realized what was going on the hostiles were already on top of them.
or
b) The senior leader at that location didn't want to deal with the ramifications of engaging illegals and decided it was best to pull back and let BP deal with it. Although their ROE allows self-defense, there is heavy pressure from BP and senior military leaders to avoid any type of altercation with hostiles from Mexico.
The mission is nothing more than a political facade, make everyone think we are doing something productive. They are basically doing what the Minutemen did, keeping an eye out for BP. One of my guys rounded up a group of illegals a few weeks ago because BP couldn't get out there and got a verbal lashing from his commander afterwards.
My unit was the first NG unit on the AZ border I have personally stood LP/OP 30meters from one of the most active crossing points along the AZ border. I will not go into the ROE, but Ill tell you that those soldiers did not flee as the media is saying. Yes, they are armed with M16/M4s and the ammo to go with those weapons.
a) They had no security, it was night time they may have fell asleep or weren't paying attention, by the time they realized what was going on the hostiles were already on top of them.
or
b) The senior leader at that location didn't want to deal with the ramifications of engaging illegals and decided it was best to pull back and let BP deal with it. Although their ROE allows self-defense, there is heavy pressure from BP and senior military leaders to avoid any type of altercation with hostiles from Mexico..
I call BS on both accounts there are locations where you could walk to within 5meters of a OP and not be seen. ROE allows self defense in the news report I dont remember them saying they were engaged so where would the self-defense come into play. I see a lot of posting without all the facts of the situation or mission. again blame the powers that be
Everything I posted was related to me first hand by one of my NCOs currently serving at the same location where this incident took place. I agree, early reports are often wrong, but that's what I've been told occurred in this particular instance. One Soldier may have returned fire, but they did clear back from their LP/OP. They did not want to fully engage the hostiles and in that particular location they had clear of line of sight to their surroundings and should have had ample notice that hostiles were inbound. It wasn't a "retreat" though as the media is calling it. They called for BP and they responded, by the time they were on scene the hostiles returned to Mexico.
82ndtrooper
01-07-2007, 21:01
Everything I posted was related to me first hand by one of my NCOs currently serving at the same location where this incident took place. I agree, early reports are often wrong, but that's what I've been told occurred in this particular instance. One Soldier may have returned fire, but they did clear back from their LP/OP. They did not want to fully engage the hostiles and in that particular location they had clear of line of sight to their surroundings and should have had ample notice that hostiles were inbound. It wasn't a "retreat" though as the media is calling it. They called for BP and they responded, by the time they were on scene the hostiles returned to Mexico.
If what you say is true, then I suppose the illegals were "Testing the wire" for weakness, both literal and political.
The Reaper
01-07-2007, 21:18
They do have weapons and a 30-round magazine. However, they are not allowed to load the magazine in their weapon unless they are faced with hostiles who show intent to injure....They are not "officially" allowed to detainee or interfere with any foreign entity unless their own lives are in danger.
Someone should tell the powers that be that is almost exactly the orders the Marines in Beirut were following the fine autumn morning in 1983 when over 200 of them were killed because the guards could not lock and load, and the weapons they had on hand were inadequate to stop the threat.
They should also know that a major investigation was conducted into the ROE and the people who issued those orders.
IIRC, it was then decided that US troops should always be permitted to take whatever measures they deemed necessary if they had to act to defend their lives or selected others from deadly threats.
Have we decided the take that authority away from our soldiers again?
TR
Kyobanim,
I'm pretty sure I read that article in the Stars and Stripes about a week and a half ago (can't be sure of the date cause the days all kind of run together), but I will search their site and see if I can get a link to it.
...there are locations where you could walk to within 5 meters of a OP and not be seen...
Sounds like a terrible location for an OP. Has anyone in the leadership tried to move it to a better location?
Sounds like a terrible location for an OP. Has anyone in the leadership tried to move it to a better location?
Roger that I fought with them and my COC did political powers that be decided locations. I had to position another team away from my OP as a early warning.
and yes TR they have taken the authority away from our soldiers again, this mission is a political goat rope and you can see who is holding the horns.
OK, found it. I'll do a better job of posting it with my original thought in the future.
http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=5758649
BROWNSVILLE, Texas A Texas Army National Guard soldier is charged with carrying a piece of crack cocaine while on duty at a Border Patrol station.
Twenty-eight-year-old Sergeant John Carlos Jones was arrested Thursday after a Border Patrol agent noticed cocaine on Jones' chair. According to a police report, Jones told investigators he bought the drugs for $25 on Tuesday and smoked the cocaine in a cigarette.
Jones has been with the guard since 1997. He was stationed in Brownsville in July as part of President "Operation Jump Start" plan to bolster the ranks of border enforcement, Jinks said.
Obviously, I can't say where the drugs came from, but I would propose that this is definately counterproductive to our efforts on the border. The fact that it was a soldier is that much worse.
Sorry I didn't put it with the first post.
Bull
Rumblyguts
01-08-2007, 07:33
My company (B/2/3) did over 12 months (two deployments 92/93) doing JTF6 missions. The ROE was really screwed up...I'll do some digging and see if I can find it. Bottom line was you couldn't even have a mag inserted until you were fired upon. We forgot to read that part though... In 97 a marine almost went to prison for defending his and others lives...the jury refused to indict though.
Snaque (looking through old files)
EDIT: Still looking but ran across this...shows how screwed up ROE can be for the guy on the ground....
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a524da543e3.htm
Just a bit from what I recall of JTF6 (82nd, '94-ish), we were allowed only one mag, not inserted, taped shut, and it was painted with a blaze orange streak. I was a SAW gunner and wasn't issued any ammo.
Bill
edit: typo
What is the right thing to do for the US and her citizens?
TR
Realize it is ridiculous and hypocritical to fight drugs and illegal immigrations-cheap labor from the supply side. Listen to the late Milton Friedman. Sensibly reform laws. Claymore the border.
Anything less is lip service from politicians to their constituencies. And the conditions that led to this event will remain.
spectre919
01-08-2007, 12:17
Back in '98 I was part of the JTF6 "Border Road" project West of the San Ysidro PoE. I had the painful experience of sitting on a hillside for a week on an LP/OP and watch the folks on the otherside of the fence lob rocks the size of grapefruits at our engineers. One of our "scraper" operators was actually hit on the hardhat while passing at about 25 mph. KNocked her clean out and almost put the 30-ton piece of equipment through the black fence.
We were not armed, had NO overwatch or QRF, and the illegals would jump the fence and run right past us.
Of course, some of them felt the stinging fury of my slingshot :D
The Reaper
01-08-2007, 14:59
Realize it is ridiculous and hypocritical to fight drugs and illegal immigrations-cheap labor from the supply side. Listen to the late Milton Friedman. Sensibly reform laws. Claymore the border.
Anything less is lip service from politicians to their constituencies. And the conditions that led to this event will remain.
Completely disagree with your positions on drugs and illegal immigration.
TR
aricbcool
01-08-2007, 18:30
Maybe the same thing they are doing to the two border agents :mad:
I have signed petitions all over the place for the last year.
Yet another thing that simply defies reason.
Ran a quick google to find a recent link: Link (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53448)
"Jose Alonso Compean and Ignacio Ramos, were sentenced to 12 years and 11 years, respectively, in October by U.S. District Court Judge Kathleen Cardone in El Paso, Texas. The drug smuggler was granted immunity for his testimony."
That is just sick...
--Aric
Maybe the same thing they are doing to the two border agents :mad:
I have signed petitions all over the place for the last year.
Yet another thing that simply defies reason.
Ran a quick google to find a recent link: Link (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53448)
Why do you say it defies reason?
The DA (a W' appointee) got them on 11/12 counts (http://www.kvia.com/global/story.asp?s=5356653&ClientType=Printable) alleged in the indictment, including obstruction of justice. There is only one Law Enforcement Officer in Texas (http://www.usanetwork.com/series/walker/) who can practice his own brand of justice, and they ain't him.
Am I missing something?
Why do you say it defies reason?
The DA (a W' appointee) got them on 11/12 counts (http://www.kvia.com/global/story.asp?s=5356653&ClientType=Printable) alleged in the indictment, including obstruction of justice. There is only one Law Enforcement Officer in Texas (http://www.usanetwork.com/series/walker/) who can practice his own brand of justice, and they ain't him.
Am I missing something?
I’ll keep this short:
1) drug smuggler running away
2) smuggler appeared to have a gun in his hand and one of the agents shot
3) smuggler slipped in the mud, got up and ran across the border
4) the agents did not report the incident and did not know the smuggler was hit
5) smuggler went to Mexico and cried POLICE
6) van left behind by smuggler was filled with drugs (800 pounds)
7) the actual crime was not reporting the shooting
8) Smuggler granted immunity to testify on the agents.
9) Agents have witnessed this particular smuggler many times
I'm just sorry they weren't better shots.
What part of this picture makes sense to you?
What part of this justifies 12-20 years?
http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_4141562
You forgot the point that this waste of oxygen was searched for in Mexico, in order to testify.
That and he had the opportunity to receive $5 million tax-payer dollars. Don't know if he actually got it or not.
CoLawman
01-10-2007, 00:48
Why do you say it defies reason?
The DA (a W' appointee) got them on 11/12 counts (http://www.kvia.com/global/story.asp?s=5356653&ClientType=Printable) alleged in the indictment, including obstruction of justice. There is only one Law Enforcement Officer in Texas (http://www.usanetwork.com/series/walker/) who can practice his own brand of justice, and they ain't him.
Am I missing something?
Yep!
I ran some missions in the same area a few years back(while on active duty) in conjunction with the Border Patrol. My team and I were not allowed to be armed, or confront any individuals. And were told to "COUNT" the number of illegals that we saw from our hide-site. I ran this OP for about 2 weeks before asking to be reassigned. the number on a good day was in the 50's, on a good night....100's. I have no doubt that the ROE of the NG was to regress.
Slight hijack - similar circumstances already mentioned in this thread, so thought I would add it here. Another incident that is hitting the local radio.
Update on the two border agents (http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/hagmann011507.htm) and now this (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0114BorderShooting-ON.html)
That new agent will probably just be sent to the head of the line on death row. I hope I'm wrong though.
Not too many details on that shooting yet.
I don't care about the cesspool some call mexico. We've known for decades most of mexico's leaders are corrupt scum, the police, even more corrupt, they are scum and deserve the cesspool they live in.
What bothers me is the fact knowingly we place our soldiers in harms way with ROE written by those that have never they them selves been in harms way. Team Sergeant
Sir, agreed. In my former life years ago, I had a house in Baja Malibu, 1/2 way between Tijuana and Rosarito, with an ex.
The entire property, I later learned was owned by a certain well-known drug lord. His "Traffic" was uninhibited, I later found out, b/c of the "no-fear" ploicy that exists south of the border. As for the "federales" corruption...there isn't a person there that does not know of it.
Holly
Team Sergeant
01-29-2007, 10:56
National Guard Commander in Arizona to Testify About Border Confrontation
Monday, January 29, 2007
PHOENIX — "Stop Stonewalling."
That's the warning from Arizona lawmakers hoping to find out what really happened earlier this month when four Tennessee National Guardsmen reportedly retreated when confronted by armed illegal immigrants along the border south of Tucson.
So far, Guard and U.S. Border Patrol officials have refused to disclose exactly what happened Jan. 3 when gunmen assaulted a Guard lookout post near Sasabe, Ariz. They declined requests from FOX News for copies of incident reports and transcripts of interviews with the men involved.
"Unfortunately, we do not have a report to provide," said Michael Friel, the Border Patrol's chief spokesman in Washington.
Watch FOX News Channel today for live reports on this story by William LaJeunesse
On Monday, Maj. Gen. David Rataczak will appear before the Arizona House Homeland Security Committee to testify about the encounter.
continued
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,248124,00.html
Sionnach
01-29-2007, 11:02
:mad: Politics over protection. I wonder if one of the NG troops would have been prosecuted had he chosen to defend his rather than "tactically withdraw."
A few months ago, they asked around our unit for volunteers to do the border support mission, there were none. We all know its ridiculous window dressing, now if the mission were to apprehend border crossers, I think not only would they have received volunteers to go, but our enlistments would dramatically increase as well.
I think the elections would have been a completely different result had the President done this:
given amnesty to all that are here and pushed for an amendment so that no one born of foreign parents receives automatic citizenship, OR......
Deploy a NG division, give it teeth and authority, shut down the border, and offer a reward for anyone turning in someone who hires an illegal, prosecute anyone who hires, feeds, houses, lends money to, buys from or sells to, illegals....
Make the penalty loss of all material & financial assets (houses, cars, mutual funds, 401K, kids college fund, all of it.) loss of driving privlidges for life, forfeiture of any social security benefits or assistance, this penalty would apply to banks, corporations and its officers as well as private individuals. For instance, Bank of America makes home loans to illegals, as long as they can provide proof of income and a Matricula card.... Uncle Sam would get a huge payday if BofA continued this practice, and its CFO, CEO etc., would be trying to find a job picking lettuce., a job where someone could give him a ride to work, as he wouldn't be able to drive legally.
The intent being to make those persons supporting the illegal labor trade indigent for life. Depriving these americans (lower case "a") as they have deprived every blue collar American worker through their criminal subsidy of illegal labor.
No one would so much as lift a finger to do anything for an illegal, there would be no reason to come here. Perhaps couple this with an amendment to stop foreign births from receiving citizenship.
And I'm hispanic, before anyone wants to call me a racist xenophobe.;)
x SF med
01-29-2007, 11:51
Racist xenophobe. :lifter You asked for it, I just obliged. :D Your methodology, although a bit draconian, would make it far less attractive than the current 'slap on the wrist' laws.
I think its draconian to take money from working families by subsidizing labor. People don't understand how that works. You pay ABC company to build a house, he employs legal labor, he has to pay taxes and insurance and workmens compensation and other expenses to operate legally,
meanwhile XYZ company employs illegals, he builds houses for half of what ABC company does, because he doesn't have workmens comp, etc. in essence his operating costs are lower.
So, the folks at ABC company can either hire fewer legal workers to remain competitive, thereby increasing the number of unemployed, or hire illegals to remain in business and turn a profit. Meanwhile Joe Dokes the carpenter has to take a job for less money, because the market will not bear what he is worth, so he can't buy a house or have a family because he can't afford one in his own country that his forefathers handed down to him. So, he's got to go to school or do something else besides the trade that he loves. Now, That is draconian.
NousDefionsDoc
01-29-2007, 22:30
Guardsmen to be honored after U.S. border incident NASHVILLE - The Tennessee National Guard will honor four of its men for properly handling a tense situation while patrolling the Arizona-Mexico border earlier this month, a Guard spokesman said.
The troops were approached by a group of six to eight armed men while on patrol Jan. 3 and withdrew without confrontation, according to a military report.
"The soldiers did exactly what their mission was, to pull back if they're approached by armed personnel coming across the border," Tennessee National Guard spokesman Randy Harris said Saturday.
The ceremony honoring the four Guardsmen is expected to take place later this week, and Tennessee National Guard Adjutant Gen. Gus Hargett is likely to attend, Harris said.
They will be presented with either an Army commendation or achievement medal.
http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/state/article/0,1406,KNS_348_5296146,00.html
Roguish Lawyer
01-29-2007, 22:34
Guardsmen to be honored after U.S. border incident NASHVILLE - The Tennessee National Guard will honor four of its men for properly handling a tense situation while patrolling the Arizona-Mexico border earlier this month, a Guard spokesman said.
The troops were approached by a group of six to eight armed men while on patrol Jan. 3 and withdrew without confrontation, according to a military report.
"The soldiers did exactly what their mission was, to pull back if they're approached by armed personnel coming across the border," Tennessee National Guard spokesman Randy Harris said Saturday.
The ceremony honoring the four Guardsmen is expected to take place later this week, and Tennessee National Guard Adjutant Gen. Gus Hargett is likely to attend, Harris said.
They will be presented with either an Army commendation or achievement medal.
http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/state/article/0,1406,KNS_348_5296146,00.html
Whoever came up with that mission should get a Darwin award.
When I was at Ft. Jackson last fall, I met another Guardsman from Northern California, a 68W. He stated that he enlisted because he wanted to be part of the border mission. Somehow I doubt stories like these were included in the recruiter's pitch. :D
Ex-Border Patrol Agent in Prison for Shooting Mexican Drug Runner Assaulted by Inmates
Wednesday, February 07, 2007
By Liza Porteus
One of two former Border Patrol agents sentenced to more than a decade in prison for shooting and wounding a suspected Mexican drug smuggler was beaten by a group of inmates last weekend, a Texas congressman confirmed Tuesday to FOXNews.com.
story here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250574,00.html
x SF med
02-07-2007, 08:12
I still find it interesting that both of these BPAs are of Hispanic descent, and are being treated as if they are the racist xenophobes (sorry shooter, had to borrow that again), they did their jobs, and look what they got, and how they are treated in prison.
WTF is going on here? What has happened to this country?
CoLawman
02-07-2007, 08:57
I still find it interesting that both of these BPAs are of Hispanic descent, and are being treated as if they are the racist xenophobes (sorry shooter, had to borrow that again), they did their jobs, and look what they got, and how they are treated in prison.
WTF is going on here? What has happened to this country?
It seems that Homeland Security IG Richard Skinner has testified before a Homeland Security subcommittee that the information regarding the Agents admitting to investigators from DHS IG office "were out to shoot Mexicans.." (see below article.) was a complete fabrication. I tried to find IG Skinner's admission to the perjured testimony, but it apparently has not hit the media yet. I just got this information while listening to the Laura Ingraham show. Her guest was Representative Michael T. McCaul (R) of Congressional District number 10 of Texas.
The Investigators who made these false statements in front of Congress need to be tarred and feathered.
As a side note, the transcripts from the trial have still not been completed as the court reporter is "still sick." :rolleyes:
http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_5108915
Rep. Michael McCaul, R-Texas, told the Daily Bulletin on Wednesday that Homeland Security Inspector General Richard Skinner has refused to deliver documents confirming his office's claims that Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean admitted they "were out to shoot Mexicans," and knowingly shot Osbaldo Aldrete-Davila, a drug smuggler, in a border incident nearly two years ago.
McCaul and three other House members met with Skinner on Sept. 26, 2006, to discuss the agents' case.
The Daily Bulletin obtained a confidential Office of Inspector General memo from an interview Compean gave to investigators on March 18, 2005. ...
Andrew McCarthy is a smart guy and about as conservative as you get, he was a former Federal Prosecutor who convicted the blind shiek back in the 90's and is a contributer to the National Review now. A few weeks ago he wrote about these guys, its worth the read.
The Border-Patrol Two Deserve Jail: Law enforcement defends its honor, despite the “hero” propaganda
(http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTQ4OWJjZTNmODMwNzhlMzA2MzZhYzJmYWM2NjBkYzI=)
So why are some Border Patrol agents vilifying Sutton today? Why are they joined by a full-throated chorus of union reps, anti-immigration activists, media heavyweights, and a small but vocal cabal of mostly Republican congressmen? Because two rogues who had no business wearing badges and carrying guns have managed to entangle their gross malfeasance in the impassioned politics of immigration, that’s why.
The sordid details that should condemn these corrupt agents — agents who make the jobs of honest law-enforcement officers galactically harder both in the field and in the courtroom — have been obscured by layers of hyperbole. Hyperbole by which they’ve ludicrously been portrayed as “heroes.” Truth be damned, they have somehow managed to make themselves the rallying cry for Americans enraged by their government’s conscious avoidance — indeed, its active facilitation — of exploding illegal immigration and all its consequent social maladies.
Bad cops belong in jail.
That article has some pretty colorful writing, "GRATUITOUS BRUTALITY" awesome. In fact the article was riding the line if not crossing into fill in the blanks creative.
Instead of arresting the wounded smuggler, they put their guns away and left him behind.
What left him lying in the dirt or had he crossed the border?
Aldrete-Davila was eventually able to limp off to a waiting car and escape into Mexico.
How long was "Eventually" a few seconds, minutes, an hour, and there was a waiting car?
Here's the National Border Patrols rebuttal to U.S. Attorney Suttons statements, statements which the article seems to have used for it's facts base.
http://www.nbpc.net/ramos_compean/rebuttal_to_sutton.pdf
And more.
http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_4141562
I wasn't at the trial have no access to the transcripts and am only commenting on the articles.
What left him lying in the dirt or had he crossed the border?
They shot him in the thigh
Here's the National Border Patrols rebuttal to U.S. Attorney Suttons statements, statements which the article seems to have used for it's facts base.
It is the border patrols union. Big distinction.
Though they work for the public, federal employees, including law-enforcement agents, are permitted to unionize and fight the public every step of the way, no matter how abundantly clear it is that they should be disciplined or terminated for betraying the public’s trust. No federal official more cries out to be fired than one we trust with a gun and a badge who proves himself unfit to bear the attendant responsibilities. Yet, our system arms even them with administrative rights that make termination prohibitively difficult. Moreover, it gives these bad actors powerful incentives not to accept termination without a fight. Because law-enforcement work can be physically stressful and dangerous, agents have very attractive benefits — including retirement after comparatively short careers with a pension based on their highest-income years of service. There is too much at stake to go away quietly.
Criminal conviction is often the only way to cut through the burdensome, uncertain administrative process. Agencies sometimes will not take disciplinary action absent charges. Consequently, if agents don’t agree to resign over outrageous misconduct, the only sure way to get rid of them is to indict and convict them.
I wasn't at the trial have no access to the transcripts and am only commenting on the articles.
No problem there. I just take the union rebuttal with a great deal of skepticism, as well as the Daily Bulletin.
McCarthy makes a great point that they "have managed to entangle their gross malfeasance in the impassioned politics of immigration". This is my problem with the modern conservative movement, they do just as the 60's era liberal activists they so deride - "everything becomes political".
I wonder what it will be like when illegal immigration gets to your states.
Did you know that 29 emergency rooms in Southern California alone have closed? Now, hospital admins will not come out and tell you they closed due to the illegal invasion, but when a facility is bombarded with customers who never intend to pay for service, eventually they can no longer do business.
23 Billion dollars anually goes across the border in remittance. Thats guys working here and sending the cash to mexico. And thats just the money thats traceable.
As California goes, so goes the Nation. Take a look at us to see exactly where you are going.
They shot him in the thigh.
Did you have a particular point to this statement? Are you suggesting he couldn't have moved himself after being shot in the thigh?
Did you have a particular point to this statement? Are you suggesting he couldn't have moved himself after being shot in the thigh?
No point, no suggestions. Responding to the question of what left him lying in the dirt. Rereading a few posts I see I interpreted the question incorrectly as:
What left him lying in the dirt [?] or had he crossed the border?
When the question was:
What?
1. left him lying in the dirt
or
2. had he crossed the border
mea culpa
The statement of being left lying in the dirt doesn't make sense to me. The thing that makes sense is he made the crossing and the agents were unable, because of the border, to pursue. The story also goes he (drug dealer) made it to a waiting vehicle, not that he was assisted to or carried to the vehicle. So I believe the writer was getting creative with the facts.
Writing "left lying in the dirt" makes the agents appear nastier stating they watched him escape custody by crossing the border. He may have hit the ground but he picked himself up and made it to a vehicle.
That was my point.
The Reaper
02-10-2007, 18:02
Okay, I guess I am a bad person who belongs in jail as well.
As a servicemember, if I received a lawful order, I would have no problem with going to the border and stringing wire, laying minefields, or with busting a cap or laying artillery fire on anyone who appeared to be of legal age and/or anyone carrying anything larger than a toothpick who crossed the line.
I believe in the sanctity of the US border, and the sovereignty of the United States, and the enforcement of same by lethal force, if necessary. We need to be a lot more pragmatic here, and we are absolutely not. We are trying to absorb the uneducated, unemployed, and to a large degree criminal underclass from every nation north of Panama, and we cannot do that without losing our national identity. This is not 1920 here anymore. You want to come here, sure, apply for a visa, and if we need left-handed farm workers with a 3rd grade education who don't speak English, or Nobel prize-winning physicists, you are in on a guest worker's visa. If we don't, you stay home. Disappear or fail to report while here, and your pic goes up in the Post Office with a $25,000 reward attached to it. Get arrested and convicted, and your family better send money, because we are not going to feed you with our tax dollars while you are locked up. As an illegal criminal, you have no Constitutional rights here. I would also seek to amend the US Constitution to repeal the 14th Amendment as it grants citizenship to anyone born in the US regardless of status. This country is now pretty much fully populated and we do not need any additional anchor babies or welfare mothers. There has to be a need and a reason for you to move to the US, and it is our call.
Shooting drug smuggling or armed border-crossers should bring a bounty.
If you are here legally and are a citizen who understands the laws, I would not expect anyone else to have a problem with it either.
Criminals invading the US should get no mercy. IMHO, the BP agents should have finished him off, and been rewarded for it, and the National Guard troops should have had arty and tac air on standby for anything they needed help with. You come into the US as a unit and bearing arms, you better plan on staying, because I would like to see you planted here, or your remains returned by means of a large trebuchet after payment of a huge ransom.
What will we say about the Border Patrol and border enforcement when a few nukes or a Beslan-style hit team comes in across our porous southern border and starts killing our kids and our way of life? That we should have devoted more resources and been more serious about it? This is not Disneyland and they are not buying tickets to get in.
Just my .02, YMMV. Call me a Bad American for thinking that way.
TR
I believe in the sanctity of the US border, and the sovereignty of the United States, and the enforcement of same by lethal force, if necessary.
TR
Amen! Amen! Amen!!!!!
Post
TR, I know you to be a man of foresight and to be a discerning observer, it is a requisite in your field. Why do you now, not distinguish between the broader border policy debate and the isolated case of two officers malfeasance?
The Reaper
02-10-2007, 21:31
TR, I know you to be a man of foresight and to be a discerning observer, it is a requisite in your field. Why do you now, not distinguish between the broader border policy debate and the isolated case of two officers malfeasance?
What is the topic of this thread, Grasshopper?
Frankly, since you brought it up and in view of my already stated position, I am not convinced that the two officers should have even been indicted. IMHO, they should have been rewarded for their seizure and reprimanded for their attempts to cover up the incident. The smuggler should have been sent a letter telling him that if he were to be caught at any point in the future, he would be tried for his crimes.
What other nation punishes government officers for shooting people smuggling large quantities of drugs across their borders, convicts and incarcerates the officers, and rewards the smuggler?
This is insanity and the self-destructiveness is going to result in a very bad outcome for this country.
TR
subfighter77
02-11-2007, 04:33
This is just another example of how impotent the leadership in America has become. This is not the NG fault. Well, not the NG on the ground anyway. The Upper echelon "OFFICERS" in charge are to blame. They put their men in that position. Them along with the politicians they all seem to emulate. Thank GOD none were killed and or captured.
We actually wonder why we have soldiers going AWOL and committing certain atrocities. It is a system breakdown. It is happening more and more. LEADERS refuse to lead and just appease and agree with "their boss". It is painful to see this. I wonder if it can be fixed. I am starting to doubt it.
The Reaper
02-11-2007, 10:00
This is just another example of how impotent the leadership in America has become. This is not the NG fault. Well, not the NG on the ground anyway. The Upper echelon "OFFICERS" in charge are to blame. They put their men in that position. Them along with the politicians they all seem to emulate. Thank GOD none were killed and or captured.
We actually wonder why we have soldiers going AWOL and committing certain atrocities. It is a system breakdown. It is happening more and more. LEADERS refuse to lead and just appease and agree with "their boss". It is painful to see this. I wonder if it can be fixed. I am starting to doubt it.
I believe that you have a myopic perspective if you think that the "OFFICERS" and military leadership are to blame.
Are you an officer hater? There are good and bad, just like Warrants, NCOs, and junior enlisted.
"We" in SF do not have troops "going AWOL and committing certain atrocities." Some conventional units may.
These ROE were directed by the civilian leadership, and their legal counsel, plain and simple.
Don't confuse dislike of a certain group of people with evil intent by them. That is prejudice.
TR
subfighter77
02-11-2007, 10:51
I have become a tid bit prejudice concerning officers. I do understand that there are good ones and bad ones. It just seems to me that most good ones either leave or go SF. The same could be said for enlisted men as well. My point was the LEADERSHIP.
I'm just a cherry by comparison. I am sure you have seen things way more jacked up than me. I don't mean to be a naysayer. Like alot of others on this website, I see things that are jacked up. ROE is bullshit if it puts the lives of the enemy above the lives of our guys. This is happening more and more.
It just seems to me that most good ones either leave or go SF. .
Strongly disagree. Many of the finest men I know have and continue to serve proudly.
What is the topic of this thread, Grasshopper?
TR
LOL!
What is the topic of this thread, Grasshopper?
Frankly, since you brought it up and in view of my already stated position, I am not convinced that the two officers should have even been indicted. IMHO, they should have been rewarded for their seizure and reprimanded for their attempts to cover up the incident. The smuggler should have been sent a letter telling him that if he were to be caught at any point in the future, he would be tried for his crimes.
What other nation punishes government officers for shooting people smuggling large quantities of drugs across their borders, convicts and incarcerates the officers, and rewards the smuggler?
This is insanity and the self-destructiveness is going to result in a very bad outcome for this country.
TR
Sir,
As an average American civilian, I concur. I cannot imagine what the BP must think of Our Great Country after having gone through this travesty.
IMHO, if "We" used a force like "SF", with no limitations, to clean up the border...it would be done swiftly and effeciently, and it could be returned to the BP agents in tact. :rolleyes:
Again, just my .02
Holly
We actually wonder why we have soldiers going AWOL and committing certain atrocities. It is a system breakdown. It is happening more and more. LEADERS refuse to lead and just appease and agree with "their boss". It is painful to see this. I wonder if it can be fixed. I am starting to doubt it.
While poor leadership and setting a bad example will negatively impact a Soldier. It is ultimately the Soldier who pulls the trigger and decides to become a dirtbag and do something he/she knows is morally wrong or inconsistent with military professionalism. I don't see Soldiers going AWOL or committing atrocities on a regular basis. Those incidents have been very few and far between. Seems like you have a chip on your shoulder towards some Officer(s) you've enountered in your journeys.
Also, as has been stated previously, the ROE on the border is civilian mandated. Army officers don't make policy for that mission, they provide the forces to be utilized by BP and supervise them.
In this particular case, if you're looking at someone to point the finger at, look no further than the NCO that was in charge of the LP/OP. They weren't pulling proper security and allowed the armed hostiles to walk right up on them. Granted it was dark, but they had NVGs and clear line of sight for over 200 meters. There was no Officer within a couple miles of that location to "screw things up" for the Soldiers. Tennessee ARNG has decided to award those Soldiers for not creating an "incident" with the hostiles.
I'm with TR and suggest we begin shooting up anyone who doesn't comply with orders to stand down and return to where they came from.
As the rising tide of illegal immigration has not shown any indication of impending decline, those of you wishing to shoot illegals will eventually get that opportunity. Perhaps this situation puts Americans in the position of having to decide to either permit illegals in their midst, or to shoot them and become criminals themselves. Certainly the two party gov't has no intention of doing anything about this. I think for two or three reasons.
1st. Guaranteed Votes. Whoever tips the scale in favor of illegals, is guaranteed votes.
2nd. Who will fund social security without the illegals paying into the scheme?
3rd. Cheap labor for big business -cheifly agri business but not totally - big businesses making campaign contributions.
There is no win for the American family. Perhaps someday we should learn to speak spanish, and kiss whatever else it means to be an American good bye, or become criminals. If the tide of illegals does'nt let up, you will never have the votes to make change, specially since very few Americans fancy the idea of having more than two kids - if they have kids at all, while your new neighbors from the south are having 4 or more per family. Keep up will ya? Educated or successful Americans are too busy with careers and acquisition of goods to have kids.
Its a bugger.
The Reaper
02-12-2007, 19:01
Forgive my ignorance but illegals are allowed to vote? I thought only American citizens could vote.
How do you know someone is an illegal?
How do you establish who is a legally registered voter without violating anyone's rights?
TR
82ndtrooper
02-12-2007, 19:41
Forgive my ignorance but illegals are allowed to vote? I thought only American citizens could vote.
I suppose that is why Charlie Rangel and other liberals insisted that no proper identification be needed to cast a ballot this past November.:munchin
Sick bunch, or simply desperate ?
illegals can and do vote. Ask Bob Dornan.
Some municipalities within CA and OR, have taken the legal position that there are no such thing as illegals; instead labeling them 'undocumented workers.' (coming soon to a town near you) There is so much hullabaloo about identifying voters, if it's done, people get together and say they 'felt harrassed', etc. Every effort is made to allow anything and everything to vote, as long as its a socialist vote.
People often forget about how the Dems went to court to get 12K votes from military members that voted overseas thrown out to prevent them from being counted in the 2000 Florida presidential election. They support the troops alright. My ass. As long as the troops don't vote right?
Voting is an entirely new can of worms, in relation to the porous border issue. Socialists use these issues to redefine American to mean something more like 'citizen of the world' or global citizen. It's all packaged nicely with a 'diversity' or 'multi-cultural' label and spoon fed to your family. If you oppose this you are "mean spirited," "racists," "xenophobes," etc. In this way your arguments or points are summarily dismissed, and removed from debate until you can clean them up so that they are 'tolerant', i.e., until they lack conviction.
Truth is a bitch, realization of what's happening to you, or what's worse - realizing that you can do nothing about it - is no fun at all. Better get back to work and pay some more taxes.
Todays Coming soon stuff:
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2007-02-13T053517Z_01_N13447905_RTRUKOC_0_US-BOFA-CARD.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070213/ap_on_re_us/english_only_nashville_5