View Full Version : Title Etiquette Question
CoLawman
08-24-2006, 22:49
When an individual is a LTC retired is he referred to as Colonel or Lt. Colonel.
My guess is Lt. Colonel . This has come up twice in the past couple of weeks.
Thanks in advance.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
08-25-2006, 05:13
When an individual is a LTC retired is he referred to as Colonel or Lt. Colonel.
My guess is Lt. Colonel . This has come up twice in the past couple of weeks.
Thanks in advance.
In normal conversation and non-offical correspondence (other than in the address line either on the correspondence or envelope or in the signature block) the Lieutenant is dropped. Just like all generals are referred to general and Lts have no distinction between 2nd and 1st. If they use their title in retirement (which they are authorized to do socially and in conjunction with commerical enterprizes) there are some restrictions, but in every case they have to indicate that they are in fact retired and that the use of their title in no way has anything to do with the military nor can it be used to bring discredit upon the military.
Now that is the generally accepted procedure. However you always have some peckerhead that wants to make sure everyone knows he was a "full" bull or a "senior" lieutenant, etc. You can usually spot them just by checking the laundry hanging out on the clothesline because their will be to two little pin holes from their insignia on the lapels of their pajama shirt where they wore their pin on rank to bed.
Matta mile
08-25-2006, 06:04
Hi Sir,
I agree with your response within at least the Army, however in a Marine environment they are picky in comaprison when it comes to rank. Staff Sergeant is not Sergeant, LTC is not Colonel etc.. I learned this lesson the hard way.:o
Chet
Soft Target
08-25-2006, 06:59
Colonel, you hit it very well. Although, when I was on active duty, I never referred to myself as Colonel, but was called that often as you said. I remember being told by my boss at the time that I came out on the list, that I should never become a "telephone Colonel" and I never did.
incommin
08-25-2006, 14:24
This old CSM's military education says COL Moroney had it right!
This old CSM's military education says COL Moroney had it right!
As for NCOs, I know, after almost 40 years, that I never called a Sergeant Major "Sergeant". :D
Pat
Hi Sir,
I agree with your response within at least the Army, however in a Marine environment they are picky in comaprison when it comes to rank. Staff Sergeant is not Sergeant, LTC is not Colonel etc.. I learned this lesson the hard way.:o
Chet
This is correct, if the individul was/is a marine, the correct rank and title should always be used regardless of the situation. The only exception being that a LT is always just a LT regardless of grade.
CoLawman
08-25-2006, 15:51
This old CSM's military education says COL Moroney had it right!
This leads to the next etiquette questions then. Do you refer to a CSM as Sgt. Major when adressing them in conversation, or Command Sgt. Major.
Is the term "Top" strictly for First Sergeants?
This leads to the next etiquette questions then. Do you refer to a CSM as Sgt. Major when adressing them in conversation, or Command Sgt. Major. always referred to them as "Sergeant Major" when addressing them...
Is the term "Top" strictly for First Sergeants?had a First Sergeant when i was a company commander that asked to be address as "First Sergeant", and under no circumstances as "Top"...told my lieutenants as much at the morning meeting...my scout platoon leader must have been napping...a few days later, he erred and address the 1SG as "Top" in front of some NCOs...
"Sir, if you think you can pull my *****ing string and watch me spin around the *****ing room, bouncing off the ******ing wall, you are -******ing wrong...!"
the LT beat a hasty retreat into my office where i told him "I told you so...":D
Radar Rider
08-25-2006, 18:13
always referred to them as "Sergeant Major" when addressing them...
had a First Sergeant when i was a company commander that asked to be address as "First Sergeant", and under no circumstances as "Top"...told my lieutenants as much at the morning meeting...my scout platoon leader must have been napping...a few days later, he erred and address the 1SG as "Top" in front of some NCOs...
"Sir, if you think you can pull my *****ing string and watch me spin around the *****ing room, bouncing off the ******ing wall, you are -******ing wrong...!"
the LT beat a hasty retreat into my office where i told him "I told you so...":D
Such is the disparity of the enlisted force. I am a First Sergeant of a Company on Fort Meade; an MI Company. My troops call me "Top". That is an appellation that I encourage, because I like it. I will be Top, and to hell with anyone that doesn't like it. Call me Top!
Myself along with lots of my friends and I am sure many others. After 20 years of mostly Team Time and spotless Records we are called Sergeant First Class after we retired. Wonder why so many retired as soon as eligible. Best time of my life was in SF, only regret was the NCO Rank promotion procedures worked out. But you can all address me as Keith.
NousDefionsDoc
08-25-2006, 19:34
I have several other epithets for "Keith" ;)
I always saw "Top" as more of a conventional thing. We don't have First Sergeants in SF and I never called my Team Sergeants "Top". I called them by their nicknames or if I was pissed, I would call them "Team Sergeant" in that special tone usually known as Smart Ass-ese. As in, "Yes, TEAM SERGEANT, the med package is GTG." Translated as, "I've done this shit before, go bother the Bravos." LOL I mostly saw "Top" used in conventional units by good Junior NCOs - it was sort of a priviledge thing.
Calling a Sergeant Major "Top"? LOL - no freakin' way. The Sergeant Major or CSM is always "Sergeant Major" - as in "What are you doing shithead?"
"Serving proudly Sergeant Major!"
The BC and Group Commander are usually "The Old Man" - never to their face, but it is a term of respect. Context is important in knowing the subject of the conversation. Company Commanders can also be "The Old Man" - if they are very well liked.
Usually in the SF units I was in, the more formal the address, the less well they were liked - situation dependent of course. Sort of like a Southern Mom addressing a child by their full name in order to get their attention. LOL
You can usually spot them just by checking the laundry hanging out on the clothesline because their will be to two little pin holes from their insignia on the lapels of their pajama shirt where they wore their pin on rank to bed.
That was funny Sir.
Monsoon65
08-25-2006, 20:38
As everyone here knows, things in the AF are a lot more "relaxed", not that I like it any. For me, officers are addressed by their rank or "Sir/Ma'am". I figure they worked hard to get where they are, why shouldn't I address them by their title?
Same with the enlisted. My Chief (E-9) is "Chief", even tho I've known him for 10+ years.
In the ANG, it's really weird. Several of the pilots I fly with are Captains, and at one time, I outranked them when they were E-4s and E-5s. Our intel officer is a 2LT that I knew as a MSgt (E-7). (I tell him that his commissioning was the waste of a perfectly good NCO). These gentlemen I might address by their first names, if no one else is around.
Do you begin or finish every voicing with the title, or just at the beginning of a conversation?
I am not very used to titles.
Thanks!
Martin
Do you begin or finish every voicing with the title, or just at the beginning of a conversation?depends on the conversation...no more than one per sentence, lest the listener confuse you with one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children...
Jack Moroney (RIP)
08-26-2006, 10:46
Do you begin or finish every voicing with the title, or just at the beginning of a conversation?Martin
Now Martin I think you are confusing royalty with rank:D
The only time I used anyone's rank at the beginning and end of every sentence was when I was involved in adjusting that person's headspace and timing. Normally, at least with we lower grade folk, the procedure is to substitute "Sir" for the rank if that person you are addressing is a commissioned officer and/or mister for warrants. Once the conversation begins folks usually know that they are being addressed and that word is often dropped. In more informal (real) settings where folks are able to distinquish between personal and professional relationships and the level of maturity and professional respect is high it is not uncommon for seniors (in rank only) to address others by first names and other nick names. The use of radio call signs can also be very common and that practice works both ways.
No one wants to be constantly reminded that someone holds power over someone else and normally that is what occurs when officers demand folks address them by their rank as if it were some divine right rather than a verbal codification of a pay grade. Those that demand respect due to rank are often awarded other titles, and though many may be hyphenated to maintain a certain level of decorum:D , these folks will be forever known only for the legal trappings associated with their rank and not the level of performance expected from what they can do for the soldier by virtue of their rank and position.
codepoet
08-26-2006, 12:52
Basic Training and boards have been the only times I've been required to use Rank at the beginning and ending of a sentence. For example "Drill Sergeant, permission to recover, Drill Sergeant!" or "Sergeant Major, AR 670-1, Sergeant Major"
NousDefionsDoc
08-26-2006, 16:27
I had a TL once I called "Yer Honor" - he didn't last long....:)
These days in the civilian world I address people on the bases of my respect for them. Also their work and honor etiquette. Titles are just that Titles, that have nothing to do with the person.
Radar Rider
08-26-2006, 19:56
I have several other epithets for "Keith" ;)
I always saw "Top" as more of a conventional thing. We don't have First Sergeants in SF and I never called my Team Sergeants "Top". I called them by their nicknames or if I was pissed, I would call them "Team Sergeant" in that special tone usually known as Smart Ass-ese. As in, "Yes, TEAM SERGEANT, the med package is GTG." Translated as, "I've done this shit before, go bother the Bravos." LOL I mostly saw "Top" used in conventional units by good Junior NCOs - it was sort of a priviledge thing.
Calling a Sergeant Major "Top"? LOL - no freakin' way. The Sergeant Major or CSM is always "Sergeant Major" - as in "What are you doing shithead?"
"Serving proudly Sergeant Major!"
The BC and Group Commander are usually "The Old Man" - never to their face, but it is a term of respect. Context is important in knowing the subject of the conversation. Company Commanders can also be "The Old Man" - if they are very well liked.
Usually in the SF units I was in, the more formal the address, the less well they were liked - situation dependent of course. Sort of like a Southern Mom addressing a child by their full name in order to get their attention. LOL
That was funny Sir.
Just call me Top. :cool:
Cincinnatus
08-26-2006, 21:04
Not exactly military, but a funny story that fits this theme.
Eight or ten years ago I took a "Defensive Rifle" class with Insights. I'd failed to pack proper clothing and found myself, along with a couple other guys from the class who'd also neglected to bring raingear, at a sporting goods store that was going out of business in a few days, looking for discounted rainsuits.
One of these guys was the spitting image of Fred Gwinn, the actor who played Herman Munster. I'm 6'4" and I'd guess he was 6'6", 250 or so. The two of us and a third guy are covered with mud from going prone on the firing line. We had cleaned up a bit at the range, but still really looked like crap, sort of cut rate swamp creatures, and probably didn't smell so good.
So we get to the cashier and he looks up and just blanches, after a moment he asks Fred Gwinn, "Sir, if you don't mind my asking, sir, how did you get so muddy, sir?"
In this deep, gravelly, straight out of Brooklyn voice he replies simply, "Training."
(His voice wasn't really that deep, but he knew to milk the moment.)
"Sir, uhmm, I hope you don't mind, sir, but what kind of training, sir?"
Long pause, then "You don't wanna know." :D
The Reaper
08-26-2006, 21:28
"Sir, uhmm, I hope you don't mind, sir, but what kind of training, sir?"
Long pause, then "You don't wanna know." :D
Classic missed opportunity to use a great movie line.
"What kind of training, sir?"
ARMY TRAINING, SIR!!
With a "That's a fact, Jack!" by the other two of you.
TR
Cincinnatus
08-27-2006, 09:37
LOL! Yeah, that would have been great.
The Fred Gwinn guy was a hoot. He was a court cop or bailiff and his training buddy was a transit cop. The buddy was about a foot shorter than Gwinn, a real Mutt and Jeff pair. They had this grim black hearted sense of humor, you got the feeling that if they were in an elevator freefalling from the top of some skyscraper, they'd be making jokes the whole way down.
That class was cursed as far as weather, we had rain, sleet, snow and for about five minutes hail. The last day of class the sun came out for maybe twenty minutes and the little guy deadpans, "Oh, good, the one kind of weather we haven't had."
The Reaper
08-27-2006, 09:48
LOL! Yeah, that would have been great.
The Fred Gwinn guy was a hoot. He was a court cop or bailiff and his training buddy was a transit cop.
Sounds like Bull from Night Court.:D
TR
longrange1947
08-27-2006, 13:12
I have several other epithets for "Keith" ;)
That's OK NDD, since I retired as a Master Sgt you can call me by my first name too.....
Master. :lifter ....................... :D
Sorry guys, I just could not resist.