View Full Version : Air Force Green Berets
NCgunlover
08-13-2006, 15:44
I didn't see this on any other post and thought it quite interesting as I grew up and Air Force dependent and recently commanded an AF Auxillary squadron. The AF approved the green beret for their SERE instructors (non-deployable unit). They have their own tab too. Not to mention that they are now all airborne (jump boots and all). I'm not usually bothered by what big military does, remember that all the legs in the army are now wearing their own feel important headgear, but this one is a bit different. I found a website that is all about AF SERE and it has the JFK beret quote claiming it as their own. It's worth taking a look at for a laugh.
http://www.gosere.com/about-sere.htm
JB
NousDefionsDoc
08-13-2006, 17:07
Good for them. Whatever gets them through the week.
Firebeef
08-13-2006, 17:09
I'm with NDD. Whatever lights their bulbs. If they can sleep at night callin themselves GBs no skin off my 4th poc.
Team Sergeant
08-13-2006, 17:16
That's OK.
The only "combatants" in the Air Force are the officers and none of them are sporting Green Berets.;)
TS
Eagle5US
08-13-2006, 17:19
Theirs is pea soup colored...
No comparison-no mistakeing who is who.
Eagle
Guys, I sent an E-mail to these guys to get some additional info. They, by the way, deserve anything the AF wants to give them. My problem with their website was the way they presented it. They give the young wanna-be "survivor" the impression that they are part of the "Ranger"/"Special Forces" family. I.E. Initial participants were Ranger. If that was a fact then they would have been recruited then prior to 1946 when the Army Air Corp. split off on its own. And the quote they give at the end of the site was the quote from Kennedy about the award to Special Forces of the Green Beret. But they left out the "Green" part. I pointed it out to them. A young SSG replied that he felt sorry that I was so bitter towards them. I explain that he missed the point. I personally think these guys deserve all that they get in recognition for what they do. I felt that they needed to be truthful to their recruitee's about their heritage. They have nothing to "not" be proud of. We are all Special Ops, different jobs to do but we work together at one time or the other. Brothers and all that! "Q".
NousDefionsDoc
09-07-2006, 21:47
Q,
They are not Special Ops. There is nothing operational about them.
I am not bitter towards them. I pity them for their lack of originality and that they feel the need to rest on someone elses laurels.
This is actually even sadder than some 15 year-old kid poser. These guys should know better. Very insecure.
82ndtrooper
09-08-2006, 07:31
Q,
They are not Special Ops. There is nothing operational about them.
I am not bitter towards them. I pity them for their lack of originality and that they feel the need to rest on someone elses laurels.
This is actually even sadder than some 15 year-old kid poser. These guys should know better. Very insecure.
Deja Vu.......................as in supplying the entire U.S.Army with black berets ? :rolleyes:
Do the conventional Army soldiers even feel any better with a black beret than before ? Is thier spirit somehow lifted to a higher standard ? and are there any meaurable quantified studies that have shown that U.S. Army men and women feel more proud with the dawning of the black beret, or have they worn it with a "I dont really deserve this" attitude ?
Personally, I'd feel like a cheap "KNOCK OFF" if I were wearing a green beret assigned to any other unit within the military arsenal.
In the end, it's thier headgear for garrison duty. If they feel better with it on, then have at it, but some standards should be kept to certain lineage within the special operations forces, if they are actually part of SOCOM.
I guess next, the Marines of MARSOC Det 1 will want thier "LONG TAB" on their left sleeve just as they whined about not having a Trident when they supposedly were going to become SEAL team 10 (Never happened) :boohoo
Roguish Lawyer
09-08-2006, 09:09
Maybe they should wear lime green berets . . .
They are support, not even a combat AFSC. They are good teachers, and thats about it.
Kyobanim
09-08-2006, 12:02
And these guys have, not just a long tab, but a REAL long tab.
Monsoon65
09-08-2006, 13:10
After having finished AF Survival School, I spoke to the instructors about their school. It doesn't sound like an easy one that just anyone can sign up for and do. Some of them are former PJs or CCTs that wanted something different. Having to go into the mountains and try to motivate a bunch of crybaby pilots and whatnot is a struggle
But awarding them a beret? Sounds kinda flaky to me. Why? Like NDD said, it really does look insecure and lacks originality.
TS: AF Officers are the combatants? Nah, they just drive me to work!!
x SF med
09-08-2006, 13:26
Kyo-
gotta love the overstarched BDUs - to the point the guy's in the picture actually shine. Those that can, do; those that can't, teach. (except, of course, QPs, who teach because that's part of the job, and who are dragged kicking and screaming off their Teams to SWC to create other QPs in their image)
Monsoon65
09-08-2006, 15:14
Kyo-
gotta love the overstarched BDUs - to the point the guy's in the picture actually shine. Those that can, do; those that can't, teach. (except, of course, QPs, who teach because that's part of the job, and who are dragged kicking and screaming off their Teams to SWC to create other QPs in their image)
Oh, yes, the overstarched BDUs. We are suppose to field a new BDU in 2007 that doesn't require ironing. There's a bet going around to how long that will last until some Command Chief Master Sergeant decides it makes the troops look like ragbags and has his command starch them.
racing_snake
09-08-2006, 16:24
This tab looks like a ranger scroll mixed with a handlebar mustache; and we all know you cant pretend to be a special operations outfit without handlebar mustaches.
skeeter8654
09-08-2006, 17:59
I guess next, the Marines of MARSOC Det 1 will want thier "LONG TAB" on their left sleeve just as they whined about not having a Trident when they supposedly were going to become SEAL team 10 (Never happened) :boohoo
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
82ndtrooper
09-08-2006, 20:11
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Please enlighten us then Skeeter ! IIRC, 4 or so years ago the now MARSOC Det 1 Marines were going to be simply joined at the hip with the SEAL teams, thus creating a SEAL Team 10, 11, 12 whatever ! The rumor at that time was that the men wanted Tridents, but without having to attend BUD/S...............sorry, aint gonna happen, and didn't, as we know see.
I remember hearing this from a SEAL Team member, not an article, so it may well have been rumor or simply BS. He was on the East Coast Teams, so he may have had bad information, or it may have had some truth to it. :rolleyes:
D9 (RIP)
09-08-2006, 20:48
Please enlighten us then Skeeter ! IIRC, 4 or so years ago the now MARSOC Det 1 Marines were going to be simply joined at the hip with the SEAL teams, thus creating a SEAL Team 10, 11, 12 whatever ! The rumor at that time was that the men wanted Tridents, but without having to attend BUD/S...............sorry, aint gonna happen, and didn't, as we know see.
I remember hearing this from a SEAL Team member, not an article, so it may well have been rumor or simply BS. He was on the East Coast Teams, so he may have had bad information, or it may have had some truth to it. :rolleyes:
Is your profile correct? If so, do you REALLY think you rate to spread this kind of boot-camp scuttlebutt about a group of people have spent blood and sweat in the likes of Fallujah and Ramadi while you're at home behind your desk?
I wouldn't think so, but what do I know.
Just a few questions that came to me while reading your rant.
Basenshukai
09-08-2006, 21:16
It's most likely not my place to say this, but this argument/disagreement ends right now!!! This is not the place for inter-service BS. It is done.
BAS
(Please, continue with the original thread.)
skeeter8654
09-08-2006, 21:19
Please enlighten us then Skeeter ! :rolleyes:
There is no need to enlighten anyone besides you. And I don't feel the need to do that.
skeeter8654
09-08-2006, 21:37
It's most likely not my place to say this, but this argument/disagreement ends right now!!! This is not the place for inter-service BS. It is done.
BAS
(Please, continue with the original thread.)
No interservice rivalry here. We (the Marines in MARSOC) have plenty of learning from our SOF brothers to do (and in many areas, catching up to do )who have been doing the deed and blazing the trail long before we stepped into the SOF arena. As a member of that command (MARSOC), one who works in the old DET 1 compound, with quite a few co-workers who were part of that proof of concept (DET 1) I would be remiss not to call out someone making statements as ridiculous as that they were wannabee SEAL's that were upset that they didn't recieve tridents, or that they will now want the long tab.
EDITED FOR SPELLING AND PUNCTUATION
Ambush Master
09-08-2006, 21:52
It's most likely not my place to say this, but this argument/disagreement ends right now!!! This is not the place for inter-service BS. It is done.
BAS
(Please, continue with the original thread.)
Good call sir!!
Any further altercations here WILL result in Thread Closure!!
deanwells
09-09-2006, 01:02
It's most likely not my place to say this, but this argument/disagreement ends right now!!! This is not the place for inter-service BS. It is done.
BAS
(Please, continue with the original thread.)
Roger that.
DOL
Team Sergeant
09-09-2006, 07:48
Please enlighten us then Skeeter ! IIRC, 4 or so years ago the now MARSOC Det 1 Marines were going to be simply joined at the hip with the SEAL teams, thus creating a SEAL Team 10, 11, 12 whatever ! The rumor at that time was that the men wanted Tridents, but without having to attend BUD/S...............sorry, aint gonna happen, and didn't, as we know see.
I remember hearing this from a SEAL Team member, not an article, so it may well have been rumor or simply BS. He was on the East Coast Teams, so he may have had bad information, or it may have had some truth to it. :rolleyes:
82ndtrooper,
You have never been in a Special Operations unit. Your insight into our community does not hold water. Save your hearsay for the other military boards. Consider this your only warning. (We do not believe in three strikes.)
Team Sergeant
82ndtrooper
09-09-2006, 09:20
82ndtrooper,
You have never been in a Special Operations unit. Your insight into our community does not hold water. Save your hearsay for the other military boards. Consider this your only warning. (We do not believe in three strikes.)
Team Sergeant
Roger that TS................steering back into my lane. :)
NousDefionsDoc
09-09-2006, 13:35
Well hell, there's a second page.
Too much information for the OPSEC gods.
That's OK.
The only "combatants" in the Air Force are the officers and none of them are sporting Green Berets.;)
TS
TS
Being and AF guy, the fact the SERE guys have a beret ...of any color...means absolutley nothing to me. The fact they are willing to train people in SERE disciplines means absolutley everything to me. I attended many courses intsructed by AF SERE Instructors and we had a several SERE NCOs on staff for many years. They are proficient in their task for the most part and provid much needed training. Its a necessary task just like about anything else...and if all it takes a ten bucks worth of headgear to make 'em happy, then I guess it's money well spent (I'm sure that's not the case however).
I disagree with your postion on AF combatants though: In the fighter world you are correct, but most of the combatant fliers in AFSOC are enlisted...not officers. Of those, there are Gunners, Flight Engineers, Loadmasters, and Radio Operators. Most ST (CCT-PJ-CW) are also considered combatants. Not that it matters anyhow what terms are used to define the "harvesters of sand poodles", but the job needs to be done neverthless.
I'll bet you were just stating that "tounge in cheek" anyhow to see if you could tweak any AF lurkers on this site weren't you? That TS is sure one sly Dog!
BTW: I see the SERE beret on some of our NCOs just about every day at work...it is the most uggglleee shade of pea green you have ever seen. There is no mistaking it, that's for sure.
V/R
Gunpig
Wow,
I actually considered long and hard about whether or not I'd respond to this thread and here goes:
The award of the "pewter sage" colored beret was a wet dream created by the last E-9 who was assigned to the Pentagon Air Staff; (initials are AD) he table topped this initiative along General Shinseki's justification lines with the black beret issue that we're all familiar about. He tickled the ears of a few GO's and got his little beret project approved. Now enter into the fray a new AFSC/MOS called the Combat Rescue Officer or CRO who is charged to command SERE as well as Pararescue or PJs and well almost without exception we all looked at this ugly baby kinda sideways and attempted to give it the sanity check that it deserved. Well out goes ole Chief "AD" and in ushers the current Cheif "MS" who convinced us that SERE really knows they aren't operators but they need the beret as an incentive for recruitment and retention and that is all... Well, truth be told that train had already left the station with the work that Chief "AD" had put in and as many of you know once something that has been blessed out of the Pentagon by a GO is approved it takes a great deal of help from God to change and frankly that battle wasn't and isn't worth fighting let alone worth the energy.
I know these facts undisputedly because I was the very first CRO assigned to the 336th Training Group which is the clearing house for SERE.
Now with that said there was a secondary agenda beyond getting the beret that was hidden from us CROs and we found out later through back channels coming once again out of the Pentagon and the current E-9--Chief "MS" was attempting to get approval to convert the entire SERE community into an all jump career field... for his troubles he not only got disapproved for this push but the SERE community also fell under investigation for validation/justification of their current jump billets... So in the end they (SERE) were lucky just to keep what they had... This stink also oozed out of the Pentagon down to the Major Command who owns SERE; AETC= Air Education Training Command run by General Cook at the time who made a trip over to the 336th and during his visit a resident E-9 attempted to broach the subject in a semi-open forum with the General and got shot painfully in the face by the General for his troubles... I was there and it was very ugly.
Okay, so there's the history of it. It's unfortunate that SERE uses a modified scroll and beret as retention/recruitment devices in order to make themselves feel "special" but that is what their leadership at that time decided was best and they made it happen.
I have stated when directly asked by anyone including my own SERE subordinates that I believe a beret is a device that traditionally in the past has been the issue head gear that symbolizes an elite airborne unit and that it is misplaced beyond this design when used as a retention/recruitment device. Now having said that, I am duty bound and obligated to support SERE in all my power as an officer within their ranks but this doesn't mean that I'll write them a blank check because they want something shiny and new or because little Johnny PJ has one or this and that. And that is that... These
are the facts as I know them on this issue, any questions? If not, I'll go back into lurk mode.
Team Sergeant
10-07-2006, 07:58
TS
Being and AF guy, the fact the SERE guys have a beret ...of any color...means absolutley nothing to me. The fact they are willing to train people in SERE disciplines means absolutley everything to me. I attended many courses intsructed by AF SERE Instructors and we had a several SERE NCOs on staff for many years. They are proficient in their task for the most part and provid much needed training. Its a necessary task just like about anything else...and if all it takes a ten bucks worth of headgear to make 'em happy, then I guess it's money well spent (I'm sure that's not the case however).
I disagree with your postion on AF combatants though: In the fighter world you are correct, but most of the combatant fliers in AFSOC are enlisted...not officers. Of those, there are Gunners, Flight Engineers, Loadmasters, and Radio Operators. Most ST (CCT-PJ-CW) are also considered combatants. Not that it matters anyhow what terms are used to define the "harvesters of sand poodles", but the job needs to be done neverthless.
I'll bet you were just stating that "tounge in cheek" anyhow to see if you could tweak any AF lurkers on this site weren't you? That TS is sure one sly Dog!
BTW: I see the SERE beret on some of our NCOs just about every day at work...it is the most uggglleee shade of pea green you have ever seen. There is no mistaking it, that's for sure.
V/R
Gunpig
Gunpig,
In the Army we have combatants, combat support and combat service support troops.
Army Combatants are trained to meet the enemy where ever, destroy him and take and hold land. You know the ones that go in after shock and awe and shoot the bad guys right in the face at close range and make camp on his former property.
You were saying?
TS
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/
The above link establishes who the combatants are. The Army, with help from the great USMC, carries the burden of the combat casualties.
The Reaper
10-07-2006, 09:56
Those who wanted to look the bad guys right in the eyes and put a hole between his running lights joined the Army or the Marines as Combat Arms soldiers, or as Navy SEALs.
I would put in an unsolicted plug for the Navy Corpsmen serving alongside the Marines and the AF PJs and CCTs serving on the ground with my brothers in the box.
They are bleeding and dying in the dust beside us.
Thanks for your service!
Good gouge, JLF. Leadership changing uniforms for morale. Saw it with the last Army Chief of Staff. It never ends.
TR
Those who wanted to look the bad guys right in the eyes and put a hole between his running lights joined the Army or the Marines as Combat Arms soldiers, or as Navy SEALs.
I would put in an unsolicted plug for the Navy Corpsmen serving alongside the Marines and the AF PJs and CCTs serving on the ground with my brothers in the box.
They are bleeding and dying in the dust beside us.
Thanks for your service!
Good gouge, JLF. Leadership changing uniforms for morale. Saw it with the last Army Chief of Staff. It never ends.
TR
Nicely said, Reaper. Being the son of two retired Air Force parents. I think they would both appreciate those words. Though they aren't too keen on the idea of me joining the Army. I just think that has to do with the Silver and Blue running through their vains. :D
In respect to my dad I thought I'd throw this link up for some folks interested in the history of Special Operations in the Air Force. At least the CCT aspect of it.http://www.specialtactics.com/ccthistory.shtml
It's probably not needed but it's a nice follow up to Reaper's post. Everyone does their job. Of course some people do a bit more heavy :lifter .
As far as the 'Green' beret goes it's tacky and if it is being used as a recruiting tool that would make it a much more saddening aspect to the issue. I have no say in it so I won't b****. But I've said my .02 on the subject.
Back to lurking :munchin
Take care & Stay cool. :cool:
Monsoon65
10-09-2006, 12:39
Leadership changing uniforms for morale. Saw it with the last Army Chief of Staff. It never ends.TR
It goes right along with the idea of bringing back the leather A2 flight jacket back in the late 80's, early 90's. I feel bad if the AF thinks the only reason I'll stay in is for a jacket or a special patch. Hey, right now they are moving to make an "AF ground combat award". I already predict fighting over that. "No, I fought harder than you, I deserve that." "No you don't, I do!" "You guys are pogues, I'm the one that fights, gimme!!" I give up. As NDD said, if it helps you get thru the week, knock yourself out. What do I know; I shoot electrons!
Seems that people can't remember it's a team concept. I can't fly unless maintenance keeps the planes fixed. No one can do their jobs unless the cooks keep us fed and the admin guys push the mountains of paperwork.
Basenshukai
10-09-2006, 17:57
It goes right along with the idea of bringing back the leather A2 flight jacket back in the late 80's, early 90's. I feel bad if the AF thinks the only reason I'll stay in is for a jacket or a special patch. Hey, right now they are moving to make an "AF ground combat award". I already predict fighting over that. "No, I fought harder than you, I deserve that." "No you don't, I do!" "You guys are pogues, I'm the one that fights, gimme!!" I give up. As NDD said, if it helps you get thru the week, knock yourself out. What do I know; I shoot electrons!
Seems that people can't remember it's a team concept. I can't fly unless maintenance keeps the planes fixed. No one can do their jobs unless the cooks keep us fed and the admin guys push the mountains of paperwork.
Why not make the AF guys able to get the same awards (for instance, CIB, CAB, etc.) as their ground combat brothers they are fighting with. I've seen AF personnel with Ranger tabs, so this can't be that complicated to do. In this way, there is already a standard in place and it wouldn't lessen the award. Heck, I earned my CIB in a in-your-face firefight. However, I know many guys - same rank and MOS - that earned theirs sitting inside a FOB while an enemy rocket fell 200 meters away. Finally, we are not that stuck on badges. At least in SF Group, I've only seen like three people wear their "pin-on" metal CIBs along with any other medals (on the ACUs). No one seems to give it that much importance. I know I don't.
Fox...thanks for the plug for CCT.
Pass along some info about your dad to me will ya, via Private Message. Curious if I know him.
PL
Monsoon65
10-09-2006, 20:14
Why not make the AF guys able to get the same awards (for instance, CIB, CAB, etc.) as their ground combat brothers they are fighting with. I've seen AF personnel with Ranger tabs, so this can't be that complicated to do. In this way, there is already a standard in place and it wouldn't lessen the award. Heck, I earned my CIB in a in-your-face firefight. However, I know many guys - same rank and MOS - that earned theirs sitting inside a FOB while an enemy rocket fell 200 meters away. Finally, we are not that stuck on badges. At least in SF Group, I've only seen like three people wear their "pin-on" metal CIBs along with any other medals (on the ACUs). No one seems to give it that much importance. I know I don't.
You're preaching to the choir, brother. A lot of AF truck drivers were awarded combat patches for working with the Army. They were told that once they get back to Mother Blue, they come off. I think that they should be allowed to wear combat patches on their BDUs, and if they have earned a CIB/CAB/CMB, they can wear it on their dress uniforms. Why waste money on designing an AF combat award of some sort when the Army has done all the work???
They initially tried something along these lines once. The AF expeditionary ribbon was to be awarded with a gold border if you were in combat. Aircrew, ground pounder, whatever. If you were in a combat zone, you got it. Problem was that the idea got perverted somewhere and it was changed to "providing combat support". That meant weenies in the US were given it for doing UAV work (kind of like the guys that got Bronze Stars for doing that same for Kosovo. They were in Missouri)!!!
I believe that the regs say you can only were Army awards like that when attached to an Army unit. TACPs that have Air Assault wings only can wear them when with their Army unit, but have to remove them when they get assigned to an AF base. I think this is ignored, and rightly so.
Why not make the AF guys able to get the same awards (for instance, CIB, CAB, etc.) as their ground combat brothers they are fighting with. I've seen AF personnel with Ranger tabs, so this can't be that complicated to do. In this way, there is already a standard in place and it wouldn't lessen the award. Heck, I earned my CIB in a in-your-face firefight. However, I know many guys - same rank and MOS - that earned theirs sitting inside a FOB while an enemy rocket fell 200 meters away. Finally, we are not that stuck on badges. At least in SF Group, I've only seen like three people wear their "pin-on" metal CIBs along with any other medals (on the ACUs). No one seems to give it that much importance. I know I don't.
Right you are. The traditional lines of service responsibilites have become blurred to a large degree. AF has shooters just like everyone else except a lot fewer than the other branches. Just ask a TACP who actually lives with the Army what he thinks of all of his "cake" job. Perceptions and stereotypes do not make their roles any less significant. As far as awards go, they don't mean much to real professionals...there's a lot of things more important than awards. The awards system will never be "fair"...but that's only if you care about them. Coming back home with all your limbs and wits about you trump any award a person could get.
GunPig
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/
The above link establishes who the combatants are. The Army, with help from the great USMC, carries the burden of the combat casualties.
Does not the AF inflict heavy casualties on the opposing force upon request of ground terminal attack controllers? Do you have to suffer big losses to be considered a "combatant"? Please explain.
Thanks,
GunPig
The Reaper
10-10-2006, 20:14
The discussion is a bit like the one that was had within the Army on the award of the CIB and the need for the CAB.
Frankly, I have always been of the belief that if you wanted to be a ground combatant, you joined the infantry or SF and got the infantry awards. If you wanted to be an aircrew member (or a support troop), have a hot meal and visit the club every night, and sleep on clean sheets in air conditioned shelters, you did not have that desire and gave up that right.
Those who are forced into ground combat by necessity are not really volunteers for it, and this will only serve to muddy the line between male and female roles as well. The fact that your FOB was attacked and you manned a gun may make you valorous, but it does not make you eligible for a CIB unless you were there as an infantry or SF soldier. The CAB was intended to award those who served in non-direct combat branches and IMHO, to take pressure off of giving them a ground combat award like the CIB.
I could even see giving the tankers awards, as again IMHO, they are engaging the enemy in a direct fire mode on the ground, and given the number of AT weapons, are at serious risk for enemy AT direct fire.
This may be an unpopular thing to say, but those in support, delivering indirect fire, or those delivering fires from the air are not eligible for ground combat awards, and indeed, have their own set of service and valor awards.
I have no issues with issuing support troops who are attached some sort of distinguishing award, but I do not think that they should receive CIBs.
The awarding of multiple Silver Stars to AF officers who were flying routine CAS missions in F-15s against little, if any threat earlier in Afghanistan has kind of jaded me on how the AF does valor awards. I can see putting in an attached PJ or CCT guy (or Navy Corpsmen attached to Marine infantry units) for any valor awards from either service for which they earn and are eligible. I think that is taking care of people entrusted to you.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
Team Sergeant
10-11-2006, 08:16
Does not the AF inflict heavy casualties on the opposing force upon request of ground terminal attack controllers? Do you have to suffer big losses to be considered a "combatant"? Please explain.
Thanks,
GunPig
Gunpig,
Unlike most I've worked with AF "Special Tactics" or AF "Commandos" more than enough to know their capabilities. (We all know who did the "High Risk" CSAR's during Desert Storm, etc.)
You failed to mention the only other unit with the capability/mission to be a "terminal attack controllers" or that can survey/set up a runway for fixed wing aircraft, survey a HLZ or DZ etc.
If you have read the Joint CSAR publication it states the Special Forces Limitations to CSAR is that the CSAR is "High Priority (high risk) and warrant the use of Special Forces soldiers". Yes, I've been to a few joint Special Operations CSAR conferences and TACP school.
Your support to conventional units such as the 82nd and the Army Rangers is unparalleled. But do not attempt to come here and blow smoke, it ain’t going to cut it with me. Personally I've never heard of AF support troops going behind enemy lines and engaging the enemy unless they were in the company of combatants.
This thread is over.
Team Sergeant