Blackwater

[BMT (RIP)]

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=107946&ran=29743

BMT

NOTE: AS IS THE CASE WITH ALL THREADS ON THIS BOARD, THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED HERE ARE SOLELY THOSE OF THE POSTERS. PROFESSIONALSOLDIERS.COM TAKES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY STATEMENTS MADE HEREIN.

[TFM]

It will be interesting to see how large this industry grows over the next decade, and how much Uncle Sam relies on them.

[7624U]

So you pay them 20k so you can make them money after your trained lol

[NousDefionsDoc]

Well, at least they are trying to train them and not just sending them out to die in place. Does the price seem high to you guys for an 8 week course? Doesn't really seem all that high to me, of course that would depend on the quality of instruction as well. No way to judge looking in.

I agree with TFM, it will be interesting to watch this all develop.

[Five-O]

Is it the industry standard to have to pay for your own training? Most civilian companies recruit and hire the best available candidates then send them through their new hire training program...at company cost. While the new hire is in training his pay is at a lower rate until graduation. The article said certain guys with the right resume by pass the academy and go right to work....that makes sense. Although I am sure they go through some Blackwater SOP type training. Do any companies in this industry PAY for the employee training and offer the new hire a living wage while in the training program??

NDD....While the training I am sure is comprehensive......20K does sound too steep.

[NousDefionsDoc]

One of the problems is company jumping. Guys will sign on with a company, get the company provided training, then move to another company for a few bucks more. I see this as a way to keep from losing money.
This type of training isn't cheap. Unfortunately in today's world, money is often the only way to get a committment. It wouldn't surprise me if that training money is made up after a reasonable period in bonuses or some such.

[Five-O]

Makes sense. I think the market place will eventually have an effect. More start up companies will drive competition thus force companies to offer more attractive new hire packages. Very interesting to see also how the private companies will come to integrate (if at all) with US forces. Especially when a (down range) BN commander sees one of his former company commanders or squad leaders walking around in 5.11 pants and vest. Wonder if personal relationship will have an effect if they all ready have not?

[Hugh]

Well, at least they are trying to train them and not just sending them out to die in place. Does the price seem high to you guys for an 8 week course? Doesn't really seem all that high to me, of course that would depend on the quality of instruction as well. No way to judge looking in.

Actually seems on the low side to me. My Experience setting up training with another commercial organization is that 10- 15 days of training for USG non-operators in pistol, carbine, driving and other very basics costs about 1/3 to 1/2 of that 8 week price.

[Team Sergeant]

Is it the industry standard to have to pay for your own training?

One word of advice, there is "NO" industry standard when it comes to civilian weapons and training in the United States, none, zero. While I agree there is a huge industry, there is none that sets a standard.

For all you know the trainers at Blackwater were former Mall Security Specialists that have great people skills.

Point in case, there was a military channel special where a Texas SWAT Team was attending training at a civilian facility in Texas and they were using this instructors "Black Powder" breaching charge to breach doors. The instructor was an idiot and the SWAT Team was paying big money to be trained by said idiot.

There are no standards.

TS

[BMT (RIP)]

http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/

More on Blackwater.

BMT

[NousDefionsDoc]

One word of advice, there is "NO" industry standard when it comes to civilian weapons and training in the United States, none, zero. While I agree there is a huge industry, there is none that sets a standard.

For all you know the trainers at Blackwater were former Mall Security Specialists that have great people skills.

Point in case, there was a military channel special where a Texas SWAT Team was attending training at a civilian facility in Texas and they were using this instructors "Black Powder" breaching charge to breach doors. The instructor was an idiot and the SWAT Team was paying big money to be trained by said idiot.

There are no standards.

TS
+1. Buyer beware.

[huntcg]

In the discussion of companies that charge their employees for expensive training, the commercial aviation industry comes to mind. It is not uncommon for regional carriers and small freight lines to charge their pilots for their type ratings at FlightSafety Int'l or SimuFlight, courses which can easily run upwards of $20,000. NDD is dead-on in pointing out that this does prevent someone from jumping ship soon after training.

As for running into former comrades downrange, in early '04 we did run into our former company commander, who had been relieved about 6 months earlier and sent home. He was back in Baghdad with Custer Battles. From our limited dealings with THAT company, it would seem that they certainly did not have any kind of training program or standard prior to sending their employees into the Middle East. They were a mess and generally a pain to deal with. That being said, the Blackwater guys were usually very professional, and squared away when compared to most of the other contractors doing business in our area.

[Five-O]

TS and NDD...you guys are saying what my instincts were telling me. While I am sure that there are very HIGH caliber people employeed by BW and others...the attraction of the yahoo/stroke job/soldier of fortune wannabe type seems high. Maybe the companies suck up the 20K from those types then bless off on them never intending to send them on a job and save the real jobs for the former SOCOM boys. Just guessing.

[brewmonkey]

Not only does the $20K keep them from jumping ship it weeds out those who do not really have the desire right upfront. When asked to put out that kind of cash you generally ask yourself a few questions. While I am sure a few do slip through the instructors, if they are good ones, will find them and send them packing.

[uboat509]

I tend to think that this is more than a little high. Among the people I have talked to in the community Blackwater does not have the best reputation. I have always been advised that if I was going to go into contractor work I should look at other contractors.

SFC W

[codepoet]

These guys were passing out recruitment DVDs all over the FOBs in North Iraq. The money starts to look pretty good to a lot of the combat suport e-3s and e-4s who are tired of pulling DFAC gaurd for the thrid time in a week. A least one guy from my unit went to their school to try for a position when he ETSed. I'm waiting to hear how it went.

[The Reaper]

20K IS high for a course of that nature. Most LE/Military training runs about 1K per week, maybe a bit more if it includes lodging and meals.

I believe that the training course referenced is required for non-SOF personnel seeking employment with BW. They will let you sign a note for the cost of the training and take it out of your pay with them. The old "company store" deal all over again.

If you look at the article carefully, students also have to sign a two-year "no compete" clause, so they cannot work for anyone else for 24 months.

As far as the trainers and instructors go, you will see everything from former SEALs to foreign nationals to "security professionals" who have never served before. Note that very few, if any SF personnel work with them.

I believe that their recruiting video shows (or used to) a wild drive through an urban area of Iraq with them shooting up every vehicle they saw. A real "hearts and minds" campaign for the US.:rolleyes:

Caveat Emptor.

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

I tend to think that this is more than a little high. Among the people I have talked to in the community Blackwater does not have the best reputation. I have always been advised that if I was going to go into contractor work I should look at other contractors.

SFC W
I know a couple of guys that work for them - seem happy, they're still there. You will always be able to find somebody to say something good or bad about any outfit.

[CommoGeek]

I believe that their recruiting video shows (or used to) a wild drive through an urban area of Iraq with them shooting up every vehicle they saw. A real "hearts and minds" campaign for the US.:rolleyes:

Sir, I was thinking that was a British company. Unless there are two videos from two companies out there like that...and then things get really sad.

You will always be able to find somebody to say something good or bad about any outfit.

From the non-PSD contracting side of the world, that is correct. I can think of one huge technology company that hoses its employees on benefits and pay yet people are lining up to work with them. Some folks for that company are awesome, some shouldn't be allowed to use a computer or look at a radio much less maintain them.

[uboat509]

I know a couple of guys that work for them - seem happy, they're still there. You will always be able to find somebody to say something good or bad about any outfit.


Fair enough.

SFC W

[dedeppm]

I know it's almost a full year old, but reading this Blackwater article reminded me of another article handling the same subject matter. It's too long to post, so i've included a link below:

Triple Canopy Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/magazine/14PRIVATI.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=a5a87737369edc56&ex=1281672000&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss)

[Para]

The instructors I dealt with at Blackwater where solid enough. The Primary was an Aussie SAS dude and one of the AI's was a former 18B from 5th Group. Although, the other AI was an LEO/USMC Reservist I could have buttstroked on multiple occassions.

Is their training worth $20k. Like TR says, the going national rate is $1k a week. Now they do provide lodging and meals, but their DFAC just plain sucks, serving UGR-A's. The same heat and serve shit you eat down range. Now, if they are providing ammo and weapons, I could see how the bill gets up there considering the weapons they do have a capability of training on.

[bost1751]

A couple of years ago I read an article about contract companies attempting to keep up with the demands to meet the "numbers" they had promised so to speak. Blackwater was specifically mentioned in the article. Basically the article stated Blackwater was mass producting , not training to standards to meet the demands of the contracts, but trained to a level of meeting quantity. The products produced were not adequately trained therefore many problems were encountered in the field. The article discussed the mass producing and the wealth Blackwater was gaining.

Sitting back here at home and reading this type of information along with the negative press Blackwater was getting at the time really made me think about this company's goals.

As someone stated in an earlier post, the training is more for the non-SOF types. This also make you think there may a lot of wannabes that attemp this venture thinking quick and easy big money.

[Solid]

In the industry, Triple Canopy is of a different league and has different operational expertise than BW.
In regards to the video of contractors shooting up civvies in Iraq that was online, the one that most people talk about is reputed to be AEGIS, which is a large British company under the command of Tim Spicer (look him up, it's "interesting"). However, there are a lot more videos of similar incidents, often less incriminating but certainly demonstrating the standards of the soldiers operating in the majority of the Private Military industry. Blackwater is featured in several of these videos.

These companies are very important not only to the future of the US and its approach to the 'sharp end' of foreign policy, but also ultimately to the successful development of countries like Iraq, Astan, and any other places they get sent.

Right now, the industry is for the most part not the best of influences, as TR asserted- they love what the article terms 'high speed' ops like PSD work... but are useless when it comes to winning hearts and minds and operating within the mandate of the Iraqi authorities.

PMCs also support a wide range of noxious industries in Iraq, including a burgeoning prostitution industry. Some may recall that another PMC, Dyncorp, had employees running slaver/child prostitution networks in Bosnia.

Without careful regulation, this industry could very easily be a negative influence on the situation in the sandbox.

JMO,

Solid

[Team Sergeant]

In the industry, Triple Canopy is of a different league and has different operational expertise than BW.
In regards to the video of contractors shooting up civvies in Iraq that was online, the one that most people talk about is reputed to be AEGIS, which is a large British company under the command of Tim Spicer (look him up, it's "interesting"). However, there are a lot more videos of similar incidents, often less incriminating but certainly demonstrating the standards of the soldiers operating in the majority of the Private Military industry. Blackwater is featured in several of these videos.

These companies are very important not only to the future of the US and its approach to the 'sharp end' of foreign policy, but also ultimately to the successful development of countries like Iraq, Astan, and any other places they get sent.

Right now, the industry is for the most part not the best of influences, as TR asserted- they love what the article terms 'high speed' ops like PSD work... but are useless when it comes to winning hearts and minds and operating within the mandate of the Iraqi authorities.

PMCs also support a wide range of noxious industries in Iraq, including a burgeoning prostitution industry. Some may recall that another PMC, Dyncorp, had employees running slaver/child prostitution networks in Bosnia.

Without careful regulation, this industry could very easily be a negative influence on the situation in the sandbox.

JMO,

Solid

Solid,

When did you go through training?

Or are you merely speculating on these companies differences?

The people on here writing/posting actually know the people that run these companies and the sort of training each has to offer.

Unless you have "first" hand knowledge keep your opinions to yourself. What someone else "said" doesn't cut it here, not unless you're in the "business".

TS

[NousDefionsDoc]

Solid, wind your neck in.

[AngelsSix]

I was talking about this subject to an individual from my unit while we were doing that 3rd day on the gate at Kirkuk.....turns out that he said an uncle of his had bought Blackwater from the original owners. His "uncle" had no military experience as far as I could tell from the ensuing conversation, so who knows if the story was b.s. But when I returned and had gone to the BMW dealership in FayetteNam, I was chatting with the saleman, who went to answer a call (I was just feeling him out prior to purchase) and I was approaced by a gentleman who asked what I did. He asked if I was considering going into the civilian market doing PSD. I mentioned that I had toyed with the idea and he told me that it would be best to stay away from BW simply because they had changed drastically over the years. From what he mentioned, there was a former operator that started the company (keep in mind I do not know the history of said org) and he retired and sold the business. He said that since they have hired just about anyone that has served even a day in the military, regardless of exp. He also said that many of the specops guys that had been with the conpany for years had started to bail because of the risk of being thrown together with folks that were not on their level, so to speak.

[The Reaper]

A6:

AFAIK, the ownership of BW has not changed since the first year it was started. Eric Prince was the money behind it then, and he still is now. I believe the story stated that too.

I think that the guy at the gate was BSing you.

Why someone would start a discussion about PSDs with a stranger in a car dealership is beyond me.:rolleyes:

The management at BW has told me before that they get thousands of resumes from people looking to cash in, and many of them have zero military experience. I would assume that is what the eight-week course was designed to try and remedy.

TR

[Tubbs]

Maybe I'm just crazy, but it seems to me like all of the hullaballu about Blackwater and other PMC's is just a repeat of the Executive Outcomes outcry from the early and mid 90's after Sierra Leone and Rwanda. Anybody else feel me on this?
I think that a big portion of the outcry stems from the government feeling threatened by an organization that they can't bully into giving away freedoms. A well regulated militia being neseccary to the security of a free state...

[Cincinnatus]

FWIW, I shared the bunkhouse at BlackWater with one of the early contractor classes. I was there for a Glock Armourer and three day pistol class, they were just beginning their train up.

Of the roughly two dozen guys going through the class, all but a handful were real young (21-25yo) with a few years Army infantry or Marines. The two team leaders were pretty squared away. One had been with the 75th in Mogadishu, the other's background I've forgotten. Both had a calm confident demeanor and kept the young guys in line, even after having a few beers.

They were on the range next to us at times, but I couldn't see all that much of what they were doing. They were, as one would expect, a lot more proficient with their M-4s than with the Glock 17s they were using. I saw some sloppy gunhandling and their transitions pretty much sucked. As stated, though, they were just beginning their train up.

The BlackWater instructors who were with them most often, were not terribly impressive. I think BW was having trouble fielding instructors at that time. We had three different instructors in three days of class. Only one was first rate. The others weren't bozos, but weren't in the league of folks like Holschen, Hamilton, and others I've seen who really shone.

HTH

[uboat509]

Maybe I'm just crazy, but it seems to me like all of the hullaballu about Blackwater and other PMC's is just a repeat of the Executive Outcomes outcry from the early and mid 90's after Sierra Leone and Rwanda. Anybody else feel me on this?
I think that a big portion of the outcry stems from the government feeling threatened by an organization that they can't bully into giving away freedoms. A well regulated militia being neseccary to the security of a free state...


The government is not the problem. Uncle Sugar is perfectly happy to keep using PMCs. The problem is other entities. First there are the paranoid types who see conspiricies in every shadow, the USG is building secret armies to take over the world blah blah blah. Then there are those in the government and the military who do not trust civilian contrators, sometimes with good cause. And then there the PMCs themselves, some of whom are bound and determined to engage in various forms of jackassery as eveidenced by the tapes that were mentioned in other posts.

SFC W

[NousDefionsDoc]

"The Government" is a very large entity and in this case a very broad statement. There are indeed government officials that are very concerned about the use of contractors. And in some cases, we have been our own worse enemy.

What I believe will eventually happen is that the field will be regulated to the point of becoming completely useless.

IMO, we haven't done a very good job of policing ourselves.

[CommoGeek]

+1 to NDD's post. That isn't just for the PSD side either. The technology support side suffers from many of the same problems, only we aren't filming ourselves shooting up non-combatants. Our stupidity isn't as spectacular.

I'm not sure about PSD work, but every resume on the technology side is checked out by the DoD before that person is hired. Sounds great, right? Waivers for everything do exist and resumes can and have been forged. The gov't checks your piece of paper, not all of the facts and the timeline behind it.

If the industry wants to survive in its present form then it needs to police itself. Some companies already do this, others don't.

[Solid]

Roger that TS/NDD, didn't mean to come off so strong. I spent the summer in the employ of one of these firms, and have seen/ dealt with a lot of things that were very impressive, but also a lot of things which wrenched my stomach. The latter fired my post; apologies.

A lot of the high-level firms have come together in Iraq especially to force the USG and IG to start regulating the PMCs out there, effects are slow in the making because there are a lot of individuals out there who are 'below the radar' because the business was not heavily monitored at the start of the war.

Tubbs: Executive Outcomes and their ilk are different organizations from the modern PMC in three ways. First, EO et al. operated on behalf of non-Western govts, fulfilling contracts set out by, for example, African rulers. Second difference is that these guys were often paid in land, diamond mining rights, etc. This produced a nasty little loop, whereby the companies were more or less directly profitting from the land they fought over. Third, these companies had capabilities that BW is only now reaching (batallion strength), including armor and soviet fighter-jets. The majority of contractors these days don't have those kind of capabilities, although as I said, it's a changing world.

Some argue that the best case scenario is that the most reliable firms with the best hiring, firing, and PR practices will push hard for more and more stringent controls on the industry. These controls will hurt the profit lines of other, less 'reliable' companies, and slowly these companies will close. The individiuals working for the closing companies will look for work with the big firms, and the big firms will select the best and leave the rest out. In the end, the industry will be far more consolidated, packed with all the high-capability operators out there, and probably will function with far higher fidelity as a policy tool for the USG.

JMO,

Solid

[Team Sergeant]

and have seen/ dealt with a lot of things that were very impressive,


What may be impressive to the civilian might be considered to be folly by the professional soldier.

These companies operate for one reason, massive profit. While some of the employees might be red blooded Americans the owners see only green. They started as a good idea and quickly grew into worthless empires, worthless as many are corrupt beyond imagination;

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/07/us-military-contractor-hit-with-new.php

US military contractor hit with new lawsuit alleging Iraq fraud
Holly Manges Jones at 11:10 AM ET

[JURIST] A new federal lawsuit has been filed against banned American military contractor Custer Battles [corporate website] and two former Pentagon officials alleging that the defendants tried to bypass a suspension order against the contractor by setting up shell companies to continue gaining rebuilding contracts in Iraq. The lawsuit, a copy of which was obtained by AP, names former acting Navy Secretary Hansford T. Johnson [official profile] and former acting Navy Undersecretary Douglas Combs as co-conspirators in the scheme. The suit was brought by two whistleblowers, including Robert Isakson, a former employee of the contractor who won [JURIST report] a previous suit against Custer Battles in March based on allegations that the firm overcharged the US Coalition Provisional Authority [official website] by nearly $50 million.



This is one of many that is being looked at for fraud..... and IMO fraud in a time of war should equal a very long prison sentence.

Team Sergeant

[JGarcia]

In my opinion BW (AKA: "The Army of Darkness") is a good place to work. I've never seen any yaayhoo instructors. The company is a for profit company, and its important to rememeber that. Um, don't go to the $20K school. At least I wouldn't. Before a guy goes somewhere, there is a train up and a certification, which they pay you to do. Sometimes a guy is kept on a paid retainer, at home while he waits to go abroad.

This stuff is sometimes more about who you know than what you know. That is where the danger lies. If you want to work (and have the prerequisite background) , attend a cheaper class (there are several to choose from), make some contacts, talk to people. If they like you, they'll call you.

Don't dabble in the female employees, they will send you packin quicker than you know what. Don't run your mouth about what you used to be or do, or how you did it at this place or that. They don't care and you aren't going to impress them. Don't be a loud mouth. Don't start ordering people around. But it is a corporate world, if you have those backstabbing skills you might get to use them, you would be wise to watch out for these kinds of people.


TS,
IIRC, wasn't custer battles owned by a westpoint grad? I think a company called Danubia Global bought the remnants of them.

[Team Sergeant]

In my opinion BW (AKA: "The Army of Darkness") is a good place to work. I've never seen any yaayhoo instructors. The company is a for profit company, and its important to rememeber that. Um, don't go to the $20K school. At least I wouldn't. Before a guy goes somewhere, there is a train up and a certification, which they pay you to do. Sometimes a guy is kept on a paid retainer, at home while he waits to go abroad.

This stuff is sometimes more about who you know than what you know. That is where the danger lies. If you want to work (and have the prerequisite background) , attend a cheaper class (there are several to choose from), make some contacts, talk to people. If they like you, they'll call you.

Don't dabble in the female employees, they will send you packin quicker than you know what. Don't run your mouth about what you used to be or do, or how you did it at this place or that. They don't care and you aren't going to impress them. Don't be a loud mouth. Don't start ordering people around. But it is a corporate world, if you have those backstabbing skills you might get to use them, you would be wise to watch out for these kinds of people.


TS,
IIRC, wasn't custer battles owned by a westpoint grad? I think a company called Danubia Global bought the remnants of them.


We're happy you like BlackWater.

As a professional soldier I see them as just what they are, contactors, not an Army by any means. Take away the money and they will fade away very quickly. I would rather not have someone beside me that fights only for a profit motive.

I've not heard anything good concerning Blackwater, their training, management or personnel.

Team Sergeant

[Solid]

NDD and Commo:
Why is a heavily regulated military contractor industry necessarily an ineffective industry?

Thanks,

Solid

[NousDefionsDoc]

NDD and Commo:
Why is a heavily regulated military contractor industry necessarily an ineffective industry?

Thanks,

Solid
Name one efficient heavily regulated industry.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Name one efficient heavily regulated industry.

Financial services.

But I agree that regulation usually is a bad thing.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Financial services.

But I agree that regulation usually is a bad thing.
LOL - Puleaze. You mean those savings & loan guys?

[Roguish Lawyer]

LOL - Puleaze. You mean those savings & loan guys?

Yes.

[Team Sergeant]

Name one efficient heavily regulated industry.

FAA.....

NRC.....

:D :D :D

[NousDefionsDoc]

If you guys are going to be silly, I'm going to go post pics of a bunny with a pancake on his head in the Pipeline....

[Team Sergeant]

I'm not kidding.... the FAA does a great job and I'd say its heavily regulated, the NRC, well, we've not has a melt down yet....


My point being there is absolutely no standards for the security industry, none, zero. Blackwater does not set any standards, not unless its in the profit end of the industry.

I will also say there should be some standards, a small set would be nice.....

And 20k for training, we spend more on Infantry Privates for six weeks training..........

The private firms have nothing on the military, nothing..... our gangs have more "team" spirit then the security companies.

[Peregrino]

FAA.....

NRC.....

:D :D :D


Unfortunately neither the FAA nor the NRC are industries. In fact both are regulatory agencies, although the FAA ostensibly provides a service as well. How about one of our favorites - an industry surviving despite regulatory interference/restrictions/outright obstructions - the firearms manufacturers. (I can't really claim they're thriving but most of them stay in business, make a measureable profit, provide a service/product, and pay wages/taxes.) FWIW - Peregrino

[504PIR]

I have never worked for Blackwater, but I did work beside the CPA detail for several months. I have scrounged, traded equipment and known many of there employees. There are some guys who are outstanding people, there are others who are.....clowns......for lack of a better word.

In some ways it is like the military ie, there is that 10% that makes everybody else look bad. In contracting its more like 20-30%. Many companies ( BW being the highest profile, but lets include everybody,TC, MVM, Cochise to spread it around) have too many guys who come on and get a "big head" and think they are allot"higher speed" than they actually are. They see the money, the "guici kit" and get too cocky. Not always but they tend to be young, 1 enlistment troops or non mil service, former LEO (just an observation, not trying to piss anybody off).

I have told many,"just because you are doing a mission (PSD) that has been done by HSLD units....does NOT make you a HSLD mofo".

PMC s are not military units, are useful for some missions, not worth a shit for others. Articles like this are frankly horrible for this business and the war effort in general. In the almost 3 years I've been a contractor the best and most effective guys I have worked for are very quiet, low key professionals who do not let there egos get in the way. We always tried to get along with and support our local colation forces (trade info, coordinate and if there was an item they needed and we could get it - we did).

Maybe I've been lucky but I have got work with many professionals whom I was able to learn a great deal (funny how many of the really good ones were retired SF NCOs....) and accomplish the missions we were assigned.

IMHO we are all on the same team, there is no room for ass-clowns and they should always be removed ASAP.

Back to lurking.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I have met several that emulate Narcissus. These days, they use a mirror instead of a reflecting pool, but the net effect is the same...If you llook closely, you can see they have their Echoes as well.

[MRF54]

I am going to try and summarize some info:

The word "contractor" is very ambiguous. It would be similar to saying someone is in the Army.

A contractor could be an electrician, an analyst, a truck driver, a PSD member, an election observer, etc... So, please be cautious before making generalizations and finite statements about 'those contractors.' Some are just seeking the very best employment they can find while others are just lowly profiteers.

No, I am not a contractor but I spoke with one in the lobby of the HoLiDaY iNn ExPrEsS this morning.

There is a plethora of contract types, levels of employment, and contractors. This can be shown through the various prerequisites for a specific job, equipment, train-ups, duration of work, pay (day rates, per diem, etc.), in-theatre living conditions, and travel arrangements.

If a PMC is in the Govt Service Provider (GSP) realm they are regulated. There is normally a system (how well it works is a topic in itself) of specific requirements and prerequisites that must be met to deploy their people down range and stay on the contract and sometimes even eligibility to bid. Who is hired, what they are paid, length of deployment, individual equipment, contract specific equipment, and training, etc. are all monitored by the office issuing the contract. Most (emphasis on most!) GSP contracts are competitively put out for bid and watched for compliance. I do think there were some hiccups early on but a lot of that ignorance and friction has been significantly reduced.

What cannot be Federally regulated is the individuals attitude, morality, responsibility, and integrity. That has to be done prior to being hired and sent out to work a contract by either the PM or a team leader. However the sh!t filter for this has huge holes in it and sometimes getting the bodies to stay on the contract can override a sound decision. A contract candidate can have the background and all the technical skills but have the personality of a rattlesnake and still make it because they pass. A lot of these guys get sorted out down range, jump contracts, or sent home. A few companies did a great job back around OIF1 in picking up really competent great dudes. Unfortunately (I am making a generalization here) as the conflict(s) has continued the duds have managed to work their way into the system. And duds always protect duds...

Part of the problem is the psyche of some of these individuals and their employers. Contracting is not the 5.11 army. It is not some HSLD equivalent that pays big bucks. IT IS only security. PMC is not Delta Force but more like Delta Airlines... or as I like to say (back me up here TR) "Tip of the spoon!" Providing a service is providing a service, period. The corporate culture must drive this service mentality from the top down. If a company is solely about making money then it's people will only be interested in money. If the corporate culture is having commando fantasies then guess what? One bad apple and the whole bushel can be ruined.

Every company PMC-GSP out there, regardless of their culture, has patriots and privateers working in the field. At the end of the day the executives of those companies have to be able to look in the mirror and know w/o question that they provided the best service(s) they could for an honest and reasonable profit.

The economy of supply and demand - If there wasn't a need for them there wouldn't be so many PMC's, employing so many people, in so many different realms of services. How did this industry get so large so quick? Clinton's down sizing was a great start. How else could the Bush administration appropriately respond to the immediate demands/needs of the GWOT following 9/11? Plus we luckily have a VP who's intimate with the industry.

Do I think there are unpatriotic dishonorable PMC's out there? Absolutely!! I also think there will be a day of reckoning for some of them in the not to distant future.

Could the standards be higher? Yes, but that is difficult to change this late in the game. It is up to the PMC's to take individual responsibility and put the mission before business development. Unfortunately, I'm not an idealist and I know this is ludicrous. Money drives the train in most for profit business'. Things to watch for are corporate ego, predatory economics, hiring influence, and 'empire' building.

Oversight and accountability are key when spending those hard earned tax payer dollars with ANY vendor. I want my money's worth! I also want those that break and/or bend laws held accountable.

"Tip of the spoon" - you can't any more high speed than that!

[Solid]

I'm with RL on financial services being an example of a high-performing highly regulated industry. If you look at the major investment banks, even those that took huge hits in terms of one-off payments, reputation, and then corporate restructuring costs (ie: Merrill Lynch) are still turning over huge profits and at least one of those banks is represented in basically every large scale financial transaction in the world (taking the Bank of China public, for example).

There is a neat little relation between these investment banks and private military contractors (all of them, not just the guys with guns and mirrored oakleys). For one, both industries are entirely profit motivated, and have massive profit margins. While in both industries there certainly exist people who love banking or soldiering, or love their company or country, these companies exist to maximise profit.

Of course, this profit motive presents something of a problem when it comes to interacting with the USG. These guys aren't going to take pay cuts to protect their country. Furthermore, the companies have a giant incentive to find 'legal' ways of expanding their profit margins.

While the long-standing technical/logistical provision GSP realm is certainly regulated (the DOD has an entire office dedicated to it), many of these companies are still able to nab extra funding by fudging numbers, and I know of several projects which failed to deliver according to time tables. Of course, there are legitimate excuses for many of these problems- R&D costs, for example, are hard to ballpark, as are timeframes when operating in unstable AOs- but still, some companies push for the extra cash simply because they can.

For a 'tip of the spoon' contractor, especially those who are subcontracting to another contractor (like KBR), it seems that budget inflation is a little bit easier because these costs are simply pushed up the hill to the USG's doorstep. While I've seen the USG challenge these costs, in at least one case the challenge was shot down using the argument 'we're protecting lives here'.

To sum up my point- while the PMC/GSP arena is regulated, and grows increasingly so, the fact that these companies are profit motivated means that they will always be looking to find those 'legal' loopholes to profit maximize at the cost of the tax payers. With increased regulation, is seems possible that these companies will still be able to perform efficiently (based on the financial sector analogy). However, the somewhat chaotic nature of the Iraq AO means that for now, there are many more loopholes through which to profit max, and the USG may be fighting an uphill battle to close them up.

JMO,

Solid

[Team Sergeant]

Unfortunately neither the FAA nor the NRC are industries. In fact both are regulatory agencies, although the FAA ostensibly provides a service as well. How about one of our favorites - an industry surviving despite regulatory interference/restrictions/outright obstructions - the firearms manufacturers. (I can't really claim they're thriving but most of them stay in business, make a measureable profit, provide a service/product, and pay wages/taxes.) FWIW - Peregrino


Thank you Captain Obvious. I thought one could surmise the industries just by knowing the regulatory branches. Both regulate the “industries” with a heavy hand and both do an impressive job.

I never mentioned the firearms industries as in manufacturers; the industry I have been making a point about if the is the billion dollar weapons training industry and the total lack of any regulation or national set of standards. There is also a total lack of any oversight concerning any of the private security firms currently out there and the training they perform. There is no standard to base any of their training, none.

TS

[Team Sergeant]

:D ;)

If you've nothing to add to the discussion do not post.

Team Sergeant

[Solid]

TS,
What do you think should be done about the private military industry? Will heavy regulation, in your eyes, be sufficient, or do you feel that fighting for pay fundementally damages unit integrity, versus fighting for your country? Do you feel that all of the private military providers (including logistical support guys from Lockheed, the KBR deployable base builders etc) should be incorporated into the military?

Should the military be trying harder than it is to retain/re-contract those soldiers who have left for PMCs?

I suppose all these questions revolve around the central question of whether PMCs should continue to exist in any way; if they should be seen as a test bed for improvements to the way the military is currently structured; or if they should simply be made entirely illegal?

Thank you very much,

Solid

[The Reaper]

Gotta say that MRF54 pretty much summed it up. If the corporate leadership are all about the profit and not about the mission, then people with similar mindsets will gravitate there. They will also not generally screen potential employees with problems in those areas out, as long as they have the other skills required. News flash: Many of the personnel who are seeking work as contractors are out there for a reason, whether it is physical, financial, mental, or ethical. Responsible leadership seeks to identify why applicants are there and eliminates those with more serious problems. More profit-oriented, ethically-challenged leadership will not, as long as the individual can meet the minimum standards for the job, and will work under the cost required to make money on the contract.

IMHO, anyone who's primary duty responsibility involves carrying a gun needs to be a uniformed service member. No issues with the DFAC, laundry, etc. being run by contractors. Shooters should be uniformed service members. If we do not have enough troops to fill all of the requirements, then we need to grow force structure. This is (again IMHO), where SecDef screwed the pooch. He was trying to downsize an already undersized ground force, ignored the warnings of those who knew better, and apparently, surrounded himself with yes-men. One thing this war has demonstrated is that we have too few troops in the ground services. If we have to raise military pay 30% or pay $50,000 bonuses to attract another 20,000 11B10s, so be it. To effectively fight the GWOT (and maintain the two MTW strategy) we need a 12-16 division force structure. You didn't see Kim or the Iranians getting all froggy after Desert Storm or OIF's initial stages. The fact that a bunch of street thugs have kept the majority of the US military tied up for three years has caused others to wonder if the Alpha male has lost his fangs. Hiring armed contractors to perform combat (or near combat) functions has not helped.

PSDs are what opened the Pandora's box here. The identified requirement for PSDs exceeded the number of qualified personnel avaialble for that mission, especially when the majority of the units normally tasked for PSDs had other, higher priority missions. Maybe that deficiency should have been identified in planning and been addressed prior to hostilities.

Contractors on the tip of the spoon, GOOD. Contractors on the tip of the spear, BAD.

You violate ethics or standards in fulfilling your contracts, you should be put out of business. Your employees engage in criminal misconduct while deployed in your service, they should be held accountable and you should be investigated for your selection and vetting process that put them there.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

TS,
What do you think should be done about the private military industry? Will heavy regulation, in your eyes, be sufficient, or do you feel that fighting for pay fundementally damages unit integrity, versus fighting for your country?
Solid

Are you talking just about our military or are you also talking about outsourcing war? It makes a big difference. As far as the differentiation between fighting for one's country or fighting for bucks, when the shooting starts I know of no one, other than in the historic paintings, that says
"Raise the colors and follow me!". You are usually fighting for your life and that of your buddy(unit)-country and money have little to do with it at that point.

[Team Sergeant]

TS,
What do you think should be done about the private military industry? Will heavy regulation, in your eyes, be sufficient, or do you feel that fighting for pay fundementally damages unit integrity, versus fighting for your country? Do you feel that all of the private military providers (including logistical support guys from Lockheed, the KBR deployable base builders etc) should be incorporated into the military?

Should the military be trying harder than it is to retain/re-contract those soldiers who have left for PMCs?

I suppose all these questions revolve around the central question of whether PMCs should continue to exist in any way; if they should be seen as a test bed for improvements to the way the military is currently structured; or if they should simply be made entirely illegal?

Thank you very much,

Solid


Solid,

Do not attempt to convolute the discussion or play semantics with me.

I’m am conversing about one aspect of the GSP’s, and that is the boots on the ground, weapon carrying contractors, I am not referring to the cooks, truck drivers, aircraft mechanics or construction personnel. I also never mentioned that the industry needed or required “heavy” regulation, you a CNN reporter wannabe?

Think about this; what might happen when we replace the patriotic sentiment with six figure salaries? What happens when the “going gets tough” and the paid “security” contractors quit their posts? Are they “defending freedom”? Should we write in a “profit motive” line in our pledge of Allegiance? Is the next hollywood movie going to be a war flick titled “The Contractors”.

While I will say there are a handful of highly skilled, dedicated, contractors these are the minority. There was a time when the industry was self regulating and would not hire just anyone, or, hire those that have a hard time reading English from third world countries to carry weapons and defend American interests in hostile areas. And as an American tax payer I find this habit of hiring third world “soldiers” deplorable.

The “security” industry is out of control. There are no standards, they will hire just about anyone from any country to defend our interests abroad. That in its self is sad commentary; we hire others to fight our battles. Should we start standing down our MP units and reducing the numbers of combat soldiers? In my opinion we are setting a dangerous precedent.

And yes I do have a problem with training a Special Forces soldier at a cost of one million dollars, a security clearance that took six months to acquire, only to have them ETS and go to work for a security contractor for a six figure salary after their initial enlistment. We’re already taken steps to avoid this by waving a six figure re-enlistment bonus for senior SF soldiers. This may not be enough to stem the flow of highly qualified soldiers to the contractors.

TS

[JGarcia]

TR,

I would agree with you that if they are armed they should be a service member, but you also hit the nail on the head when you spoke about raising the money for your 11B's.

Most everyone I know that works for BW does it for the money. If the Army paid more money, I don't think I would have ever left active duty. Liquidating the entire debt of your family in less than one year is great. I think Soldiers, trigger pullers, should be paid much more. People, companies make boat loads of cash off of these wars. Meanwhile, Joe Snuffy the E3 suffering the consequencs and bearing the load is paid peanuts.

Mama wants a new house, kids need a good school, nice having no debt, good living conditions, and the food is better. Could the Army pay 100k for being stateside, and 200K for combat duty per annum, per Soldier? I guess it comes down to quality of life for Soldiers and their families. If the PMC's through their existence can get the military to take better care of its people, I think they've been useful, at least in that regard.

But to what end? The DoD, DoS, and OGA's pay these companies to perform, if they wanted to, they could dry up the well tomorrow, but they don't. I guess we have to ask why don't the Administrators of these Departments do away with them?

[Solid]

TS,
I was most certainly not trying to twist your words around, I just did not want to make assumptions about your position on specific questions.

So, I think most people here agree that the PSD- derived contractors are a bad idea. The very existence of the PSD-derived contractors (who I'm going to hereon refer to as PMCs) suggests that there are certain missions which the military cannot currently fulfill due to personnel shortages. Furthermore, that there are highly skilled people (using the SOF example) leaving the military for PSD positions even with incentives to stay could be seen to suggest that the military needs to change the way it does business. Is this accurate?

If so, what can the military do in the way of restructuring to prevent personnel losses to the PMC sector?

Thank you,

Solid

[The Reaper]

TR,

I would agree with you that if they are armed they should be a service member, but you also hit the nail on the head when you spoke about raising the money for your 11B's.

Most everyone I know that works for BW does it for the money. If the Army paid more money, I don't think I would have ever left active duty. Liquidating the entire debt of your family in less than one year is great. I think Soldiers, trigger pullers, should be paid much more. People, companies make boat loads of cash off of these wars. Meanwhile, Joe Snuffy the E3 suffering the consequencs and bearing the load is paid peanuts.

Mama wants a new house, kids need a good school, nice having no debt, good living conditions, and the food is better. Could the Army pay 100k for being stateside, and 200K for combat duty per annum, per Soldier? I guess it comes down to quality of life for Soldiers and their families. If the PMC's through their existence can get the military to take better care of its people, I think they've been useful, at least in that regard.

But to what end? The DoD, DoS, and OGA's pay these companies to perform, if they wanted to, they could dry up the well tomorrow, but they don't. I guess we have to ask why don't the Administrators of these Departments do away with them?


I think the issue is that the nation does not want to pay top dollar for soldiers in peacetime, yet does not realize that you cannot create them overnight in wartime.

You can bet that the PSCs are being paid well over 200K per shooter they have on payroll, in some cases as much as 400K or more. Many of these soldiers could have been kept on AD for far less, especially when you cut out the PSC's markup on the contract.

I understand that there is a pay scale for everyone in DoD and a leg E5 71L makes the same base pay as an E5 18D, but maybe it is time to either relook the bonuses or somehow change the compensation structure (maybe SOCOM should control MILPAY, but then you would have all of the support troops demanding more bucks as well). This could also have the effect of fixing SF recruiting as well. If the 71L E5 made 28K per year and the 18D E5 made 85K per year, I could see where we would have a lot of people wanting to join, but would that attract the sort of people we want? That would reflect a market type value, where the risk takers have to be paid more. If the purpose of the money is to make Mama happy and to put the kids in good schools, that might make sense.

Clearly, most troops would prefer to be in an outfit where they can grow their hair any way they want, dress as they wish, drop the military courtesies, and not be subject to the UCMJ, while making 150K per year, but is that who we want to have representing the US overseas?

Agreed that combat duty is seriously undercompensated.

The situation needs to be fixed, as it is currently broken.

TR

[Team Sergeant]

TS,
If so, what can the military do in the way of restructuring to prevent personnel losses to the PMC sector?
Solid

I would not attempt to guess what needs to be done at this point. I will also say that simply "restructuring" is not going to cure a problem that seems to be endemic here in America.

Patriotism is fast losing its appeal to profit motive. When the balance shifts we will lose the high moral ground we were accustomed to fight wars from.....

[Roguish Lawyer]

I have decided to appoint TR as SECDEF in my administration.

[The Reaper]

I have decided to appoint TR as SECDEF in my administration.

When you are elected, it would be an honor, Sir.

You got my vote. Unfortunately, since I am not a Dem, I do not intend to vote illegally, or in the same election more than once.

TR

[Maytime]

I think the issue is that the nation does not want to pay top dollar for soldiers in peacetime, yet does not realize that you cannot create them overnight in wartime.

Sounds familiar...

Truths
Humans are more important than Hardware.

Quality is better than Quantity.

Special Operations Forces cannot be mass produced.

Competent Special Operations Forces cannot be created after emergencies occur.

TR Sir, is it safe to assume the same is [somewhat] true for competent conventional forces?

http://www.soc.mil/sofinfo/truths.shtml

[JGarcia]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer
I have decided to appoint TR as SECDEF in my administration.

I was thinking the same thing! Of course then there's that messy confirmation hearing. Sir, get those skeletons cleaned up!

RE: Grooming Standards. Its rumored that one of the reasons DynCorp lost the contract in A'Stan is the lack of grooming standards. BW has standards.

One thing about DoD pay scales. I am imagining an Army with Combat Arms preferential pay scales, and I think a problem which might arise is this: As the pay goes up for trigger pullers, the number of people trying to become trigger pullers goes up, consequently more of them get turned away, they start crying and eventually the standards are lowered to allow people into the ranks of the trigger pullers. This happend before, just look at Airborne School. Not saying this will happen, just want to point out that this is a probability.

The pay scale has gone down across the board somewhat in recent months. Folks that were making $600 per day are now $500 to $550, some static gigs in injun country are as low as $300 per day. But with the prequisite experience, good background check, and a little luck most guys with some trigger time can expect the $500 to $550 range. Non US companies are paying less. Some US companies are using foreign nationals wherever possible, and they make about a third of what an American makes. Rumor has it the company gross is the same.

I think Soldiers are typically your most Patriotic citizens, willing to sacrifice for the Nation. They are the foundation of your country. They should be rewarded, and cared for, especially their families because they are the ones who will carry the torch after the Soldier has done his best. All other occupations, trades, lifestyles, and freedoms are enjoyed because a Soldier made a sacrifice. Its not wrong to pay special care to those on which your Nation is built. I don't know if its in the genes, but there are an awful lot of us, who are not 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generation riflemen. We should care for that group of Americans, commensurate with the risk they take and the benefits they provide.

Its fine if you don't want to compensate a Soldier with cash because you think it will cost us the moral high ground. But then provide the Soldier with first rate food, health care, real property when he leaves service, college for his kids, etc. Give him what he would buy if he had the money. But demand excellent performance from him as well.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Great post MRF54. The only thing I will say is that the corporate culture can take years to trickle down. In today's world, we don't have years or even months. I agree there are people trying. I also agree there are holes - some of them you can drive a truck through.

Boss,
I will have to disagree with the "carrying guns should be a soldier". Soldiers do not and should not be doing PSD for example. Yes, I know there are people that can do it - we did it for Endara when he finally took office. We also winged it. But PSD is not a soldier function. I also know there is room for contractors in the training realm, kgoerz and I are living proof. It is a good way for old broke dudes to pass on what we managed to learn by making mistakes and free up the 18Xers to kick doors. What we do requires a maturity level (I know, I know, I'm the exception) beyond what is found on many A-Teams today. I know back in the day I wasn't ready for class after class after class - now I don't have a problem with it.

There is a place for good contractors outside of the dining facility and the laundry room. It can be of equitable benefit - the pay is much more commisarate with the expereince level than AD.

MRF54 hit the nail on the head. It's about professionalism - in this industry individual professionalism. You are only as good as your last job. As long as we keep the standards high and police ourselves, it will work. It will help keep the older talent in the game (somewhat) so we don't have a former Mott Lake Dude handing out carts at the door of Walmart when he could be teaching BPM or BRM.

We have to get the nepotism and BS out of it and push the professionalism at every level.

[Jeckyl]

I've read a good bit of posts regarding the BW Academy and its price for training, but bear in mind that the Academy staffs primarily static positions...not mobil.

BW runs WPPS high threat protection courses every month, and the individuals that attend the vetting process don't pay any money to participate in the course. The DoS WPPS course is by invitation only...and offered to those who've had their resumes screened prior to invitation. That sure as hell doesn't mean that every shooter that shows up is grade A....but that's why it's a vetting course and not a training course. You're expected to have a clue when you show up and bring your knowledge/skill level to the table. Their will always be turds that slip through the cracks, but I can't think of an organization that doesn't experience that.

I've read that DynCorp lost their contract due to grooming standards...and no, that's not true. I've heard that TC is the company to go with...however they don't hold but a very few contracts right now. Their isn't a company out there that can't sling crap on eachother...and I believe the same is true for military units for the most part.

[Team Sergeant]

I've read a good bit of posts regarding the BW Academy and its price for training, but bear in mind that the Academy staffs primarily static positions...not mobil.

BW runs WPPS high threat protection courses every month, and the individuals that attend the vetting process don't pay any money to participate in the course. The DoS WPPS course is by invitation only...and offered to those who've had their resumes screened prior to invitation. That sure as hell doesn't mean that every shooter that shows up is grade A....but that's why it's a vetting course and not a training course. You're expected to have a clue when you show up and bring your knowledge/skill level to the table. Their will always be turds that slip through the cracks, but I can't think of an organization that doesn't experience that.

I've read that DynCorp lost their contract due to grooming standards...and no, that's not true. I've heard that TC is the company to go with...however they don't hold but a very few contracts right now. Their isn't a company out there that can't sling crap on eachother...and I believe the same is true for military units for the most part.


You've been here 24 hours and are already standing up for BW?
Spare us the speculation concerning BW and other contractor companies. We know their level of training and expertise, we also know very few SF'ers work for them.

If you've "heard" something keep it to yourself or feel free to post your opinions concerning contract companies on military.com.

As far as military units "slinging crap on eachother" I was in twenty years and I never witnessed any US military units "slinging crap on eachother".

Team Sergeant

[Eagle 9294]

After eight years do you QPs still feel the same about these PMCs?

[sinjefe]

What is it with people and resurrecting ancient threads?

[Eagle 9294]

What is it with people and resurrecting ancient threads?

I had a question and did not want to start a new thread when a old one is available and will do just fine.