Bonds and The Babe

[NousDefionsDoc]

Bonds is one away, what do you guys think?

[The Reaper]

Bonds is one away, what do you guys think?

I think Bonds is a juicer who should be banned for life.

Let's review; a great player betting on baseball, BAD, a mediocre player getting himself a record through better chemistry, GOOD!

He is nowhere close to the Babe (or Hammerin' Hank) in talent or personality.

If Bonds were on fire in front of me, I wouldn't piss on him to put it out.

Other than that, I like him just fine.

TR

[The Dave]

If Bonds were on fire in front of me, I wouldn't piss on him to put it out.



TR

I second that. Talk about the biggest prick in baseball too. I say wipe the record...he's truly no where near the Babe.

This is an interesting article I read over the weekend: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594 Sure Barry, I bet you had no idea what they were.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Ok, from what I have read, The Babe wasn't exactly a model citizen either. It is not a popularity contest, it is about knocking the ball out of the park.

As for the juicing, I am digusted yet offer this:

If they had been available back in the day, is there any doubt the old guys would have done it? Ty Cobb I know would have, he didn't care about anything but winning. Would The Babe not have?

At the end of the day, it is illegal, so he shouldn't be allowed to hold the record. But should they be illegal?

"mediocre" player? COME ON Boss! He may (probably) be an ass. He may not deserve the record. But mediocre? The juice may help, but the fact is he has hit 713 of them, that ain't in dispute. I could go to the plate with an IV of the stuff running wide open in both arms and not hit 7 in 20 years. Cal Ripken Jr. could juice all day long and not hit 713. The man can play ball.

[Airbornelawyer]

I second that. Talk about the biggest prick in baseball too. I say wipe the record...he's truly no where near the Babe.
Just sticking to Hall of Fame caliber players, the biggest prick in baseball history is undoubtedly Ty Cobb. Among the current crop, Pedro Martinez stands out in assholiness.

[REMFlt]

I remember when Bonds used to play at Three Rivers stadium, he was a decent hitter then, kindof wish he still played for the Pirates.:mad:

I think another factor to consider is how many other players are juicing that can't approach the HR record. I'd estimate around 25%, just looking at the physiques of baseball players now compared to 20-30 years ago. Plus how many pitchers have intentionally walked Bonds? Given all that, I'd say Bonds is a pretty phenomenal player.

This might be a sore spot, but in anythiing challenging, people who have been there before always say how much harder it was before such and such. This may be true in some cases, but it doesn't necessarily discredit the accomplishments of the current contenders. Just my $.02

edited to add: I think Bonds accomplishment is still noteworthy.

[The Reaper]

"mediocre" player? COME ON Boss! He may (probably) be an ass. He may not deserve the record. But mediocre? The juice may help, but the fact is he has hit 713 of them, that ain't in dispute. I could go to the plate with an IV of the stuff running wide open in both arms and not hit 7 in 20 years. Cal Ripken Jr. could juice all day long and not hit 713. The man can play ball.

That may well be so, but if you are going to compare Ruth and feel that he would have a weakness for the same excesses, might he not also have profited from better training, treatment, care, etc.?

Look at Ruth's record, as the below article does, I think that you will see that the Babe was an outstanding player in many aspects, Bonds seems to have had one singularly great season. Natural, or chemically enhanced?

Gotta love the intro paragraph.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12522172/

"Ruth better than Bonds in every way
Babe was superior hitter, won 7 World Series — and was great pitcher

Babe Ruth may be passed by Barry Bonds on the career home run chart, but Ruth was a superior player to Bonds, writes NBCSports.com's Michael Ventre.

COMMENTARY
By Michael Ventre
NBCSports.com contributor
Updated: 1:26 p.m. ET May 8, 2006

I disagree that Barry Bonds couldn’t carry Babe Ruth’s jockstrap. Because of a unique but controversial training regimen, Bonds is strong enough to carry Ruth’s jockstrap, even with the Babe still in it.

But that’s not really one of the feats of power that a baseball fan realistically would point to in determining if Barry Bonds is worthy of cracking Ruth’s 714 home-run plateau. Nor should it be.

Simply put, Bonds isn’t the baseball player that Ruth was, nor did he have the impact on the game that Ruth did.

Let’s not forget that Ruth was in the process of establishing himself as a Hall of Fame pitcher before he became a slugger. In six seasons, from 1914 to 1919, Ruth went 89-46. He posted records of 18-8, 23-12 and 24-13 in a span from 1915 to 1917. In ’17, he had an unthinkable 35 complete games in 38 starts. Aside from his 1914 rookie year, when he only had three starts, he never registered an ERA above 3.00 during his prime pitching years in Boston. Ruth’s pitching was the primary reason why the Red Sox won the World Series in 1916 and 1918. He posted 29 consecutive scoreless innings of World Series play, a record that stood for 42 years.

possible to compare and haggle over batting statistics between Ruth and Bonds for days, weeks, months or years. Some of the most pertinent are these:

Bonds became baseball’s first 400-400 player in 1998 — 400 homers and 400 stolen bases.

Ruth led the American League in home runs 12 times and in slugging percentage 13 times.

Bonds hit a record 73 home runs in 2001. But that was a career anomaly and most certainly achieved through enhancement. He had never hit more than 49 before or after that.

Ruth hit 60 home runs in 1927. But he hit 50 or more three other times, and 40 or more seven other times.

Perhaps the more important aspects of this argument come under the heading of intangibles.

Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds were the most celebrated players of their times. But Bonds is more of a negative and villainous force. He takes the field with a chip on his shoulder and a surly scowl, and while immensely popular with the fans in San Francisco, everywhere else the sentiment ranges from mild dislike to outright loathing.

The Babe certainly attracted his share of boo-birds. Every great player who threatens to wreak havoc on an opposing team surely does. But overall the affect of Ruth’s presence was largely positive. He personally resurrected the national pastime after the Black Sox scandal of 1919. He transformed the game from one in which runs were routinely scratched out into one that featured the electricity and excitement of the long ball. Yankee Stadium is still referred to as “The House That Ruth Built.”

Bonds definitely seems to thrive by sticking it to critics. But if he had played today, Ruth would have channeled the Michael Jordan level of hero-worship that is present today into even more extraordinary achievements, because his ego would accept no less.

But perhaps the biggest difference between Ruth and Bonds comes in the area of jewelry. Ruth played in 10 World Series, winning seven. Bonds played in one, winning none. Maybe it’s unfair to compare what Ruth had around him in Boston and New York with Bonds’ supporting casts in Pittsburgh and San Francisco.

But Bonds’ postseason numbers overall don’t measure up to Ruth: .245 average, 9 homers, 24 RBI in 48 games, with a slugging percentage of .503. And much of that was polished by his one breakout 2002 postseason. Ruth batted a whopping .326 in 41 World Series games, with 15 home runs, 33 RBI and a slugging percentage of .744. Even if you cut Bonds some slack for not having a Lou Gehrig in the lineup with him all those years, it still looks like he’s been slacking off in the postseason.

And last but not least, Major League Baseball announced it will not have any official celebration should Bonds tie or pass Ruth at 714. That’s just the latest reminder that the bigger-than-life qualities associated with Bonds may have gotten bigger in an unnatural way.

Even without substances, Bonds had a brilliant career, but Ruth had the more legitimate and impressive career.

Yes, Bonds could have carried the Babe’s jockstrap, but in every other significant way he doesn’t measure up."

[NousDefionsDoc]

Just sticking to Hall of Fame caliber players, the biggest prick in baseball history is undoubtedly Ty Cobb. Among the current crop, Pedro Martinez stands out in assholiness.
Winners!:)

[NousDefionsDoc]

I'm not arguing that Bonds is better than Ruth. I never saw Ruth play and your article pretty much lays that to rest. All I am saying is Bonds is not mediocre.

He still has a ways to go to catch Hank - two maybe 3 seasons. If they let him play.

[The Reaper]

He still has a ways to go to catch Hank - two maybe 3 seasons. If they let him play.

I think that if Bonds has to pass regular drug tests, he could play ten more years and not catch Hank.

TR

[mumbleypeg]

I'm of the opinion that Ty Cobb was just mean enough, to compete without steroids. It would be a source of pride with him that he ran more bleachers and pushed more iron than the competition.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Steriods don't do you much good if you don't do the work. They ain't magic.

[Team Sergeant]

Bonds is one away, what do you guys think?

I think it should not be a record if just one HR was steroid induced.

I'd bet on my grandmothers grave that many of bonds HR's were steroid induced..... Not the kind of mentor I would want my kids to take after.....

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I think it should not be a record if just one HR was steroid induced.

I'd bet on my grandmothers grave that many of bonds HR's were steroid induced..... Not the kind of mentor I would want my kids to take after.....

Absolutely.

I think the problem I have with all of this is that this is a frigging game where the playing field should be level in that everyone brings to that game the skills and talents developed through training, desire, and heart. If you are going to use the benefits provided through better chemistry it should be limited to those situations where life, limb and someone's destiny other than your own is involved.

The second problem I have is that, like it or not, these losers are role models for kids. This has already produced a generation of youngsters in competitive sports that are suffering heart attacks and ruining their lives because of shitbirds like Bonds.

If Bonds, and the other clowns that are juicing, can take credit for anything it is the demise of what was once a great sport.

[vsvo]

I agree with Col. M and TS, Bonds and his fellow juicers have destroyed the statistical aspect of the game. What the hell are the talking heads on the four letter network going to yell about now, when they can't compare numbers from different eras anymore?

I just love the fact that Bud Selig and his fellow hypocrites in MLB will have to stand up and cheer when Bonds passes Ruth, even though they know he's a cheater.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I agree with TR.

Good topic, NDD.

[mumbleypeg]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/baseball/mlb/la-sp-plaschke10may10,0,6206670.column?coll=la-home-headlines



Babe Is the Man


No matter how many homers Bonds hits, there's no comparison with Ruth over who had a greater impact
Bill Plaschke

May 10, 2006

The puffball reliever will lay the juiced ball on a tee.

The padded hitter will use his bloated biceps to smash it deep into the stands.

Every headline will weep.

Barry Bonds passes Babe Ruth.

He does not.

He will not.

Saying Barry Bonds passes Babe Ruth is like saying the Escalade passes the Mustang.

It's like saying text messages pass handwritten letters.

It's like saying Zima passes beer.

When Bonds hits homers No. 714 and 715 to pass Ruth for second place on the career list — a feat that could occur any tainted day now — there will be much harrumphing and hand-wringing about a lout overtaking a legend.

But a home run is not a personality trait, and statistics cannot measure impact.

Barry Bonds might have altered the record books, but Babe Ruth changed the game.

"Babe Ruth was different," said Elden Auker, 95, a former major league pitcher who once struck out Ruth. "If Bud Selig had any intestinal fortitude, Barry Bonds would not even be in the game today."

Auker, who lives in Vero Beach, Fla., is one of the last living ballplayers who understood Ruth's effect.

"The more time passes, the bigger Ruth grows," Auker said.

The more time passes, the smaller Bonds shrinks.

"He's broken all kinds of laws, how can he still be playing?" Auker said.

In some obvious ways, the hitters are different.

Ruth played before the invention of steroids. Ruth played before the invention of batter's body armor. Ruth played before the dilution of pitching staffs.

"When I pitched, I owned the plate," Auker said. "Today, batters can stand inside and wear all that stuff on their bodies. Everybody is afraid to throw knockdown pitches. The batter owns the plate."

In other, less obvious ways, the hitters were more similar than one might imagine.

Ruth deserves an asterisk because he did not compete against the entire population — African American players were banned from the game.

And, yes, well, Ruth competed while taking an illegal substance — he drank alcohol during Prohibition.

"Everybody forgets that one, don't they?" Auker said with a laugh.

But, overall, no matter how many times ESPN shows adjoining clips of the two players this week, they don't even belong in the same league.

Because while Barry Bonds played baseball, Babe Ruth was baseball.

•* Bonds is so aloof, his locker is decorated in security guards.

•* Ruth was so gregarious, next to his locker the Yankees installed a pay phone.

•* Bonds once helped cost the Pittsburgh Pirates a World Series berth because he couldn't throw out Sid Bream from shallow left field.

•* Ruth once pitched 13 scoreless innings in one World Series game.

•* Bonds popularized the lowering of baseball pant cuffs to the ankles, making uniforms pajamas.

•* Ruth's size inspired the Yankees to invent the slimming pinstripe, making uniforms regal.

•* In 2001, when Bonds hit 73 home runs, the runner-up was Sammy Sosa with 64.

•* In 1920, when Ruth hit 54 home runs, the runner-up was St. Louis' George Sisler with 19.

•* Bonds rarely signs autographs for children because he fears they will sell them.

•* Ruth was the first athlete to sign mass autographs for children; the two autographed baseballs he sent to sick little Johnny Sylvester inspired the tall tale of how he hit a World Series homer for him.

•* With his huge head and neck and arms, Bonds looks like Andre the Giant.

•* At 6 feet 1, 250 pounds, Ruth looked like George Costanza.

•* Bonds has had four sacrifice bunts in his 20-year career.

•* Ruth once had 10 sacrifice bunts in one season.

•* Bonds says he views baseball as a business, not a game.

•* Ruth once showed up late and dirty for a Yankee team dinner because he had been playing with kids on a sandlot.

•* Bonds has yet to win a World Series championship.

•* Ruth won seven, including two as a pitcher.

•* Bonds' contribution to the English language consists entirely of the word "juiced."

•* Ruth inspired the word "Ruthian" and the phrase "out in left field," which referred to children too clueless to sit behind him in the right field bleachers.

•* Bonds' shin and elbow pads inspired body armor.

•* Ruth's mammoth blasts inspired Polo Grounds workers to invent the foul poles.

•* Bonds openly despises the media.

•* During the 1934 World Series, Ruth became media, writing for a wire service, breaking every story except the one, written by competitors, that he was retiring.

•* Bonds inspired the chant, "Ster-oids"

•* Ruth inspired a chant from Japanese soldiers hoping to anger Americans in World War II, their troops screaming, "To hell with Babe Ruth" during battle.

•* Bonds calls many people "Bleeps."

•* Ruth called everyone "Kid."

•* Bonds is conspicuous in his lack of affiliation with any major charity.

•* After all-night Yankee parties, Ruth was known to stop by church and drop $50 into the collection plate.

•* Bonds has virtually no national endorsements.

•* Ruth was the first athlete to do such endorsements; when he heard rumors that he wore no underwear, he posed for ads in his underwear.

•* Bonds has been in the limelight since growing up the son of a famous baseball player.

•* Ruth, who grew up in an orphanage with few visitors, once said, "I am too big and ugly for anyone to come see me."

•* Bonds allegedly responded to the 1998 home run chase by injecting himself with steroids that led to the ruination of an era.

•* Ruth responded to the 1919 Black Sox scandal by saving the game.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Bonds hit 715 today. I was watching the game. Good whack.

2 days from 20 years that he came to The Show. That's an average of just under 36 a year by my calcs. I think the boy has done all right.

you can compare their stats here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ruthba01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/aaronha01.shtml